Xbox 360 eDRAM benefit turns into a liability.

I can't tell the difference between 640p and 720p unless I get down and look at two relatively large images side by side.

Most people can't tell and, hence, don't care. Shoot, the PS2's graphics were atrocious compared to both the Xbox and the Gamecube, yet it's still heralded as a great system.

I can't tell the difference between 640p and 720p unless I get down and look at two relatively large images side by side.

Most people can't tell and, hence, don't care. Shoot, the PS2's graphics were atrocious compared to both the Xbox and the Gamecube, yet it's still heralded as a great system.

mattbbpl

Agreed, this is very nitpicky, the fact remains, anything over 480p can be considered HD

as for tiling, the bandwidth of the 360 memory is so fast the tiling CAN be used with little effect on performance

I can't tell the difference between 640p and 720p unless I get down and look at two relatively large images side by side.

Most people can't tell and, hence, don't care. Shoot, the PS2's graphics were atrocious compared to both the Xbox and the Gamecube, yet it's still heralded as a great system.

mattbbpl

I suppose the PS3's many "non-HD" games can be attributed to Peter Moore as well :roll:

The fact that games look above and beyond that of last-gen is enough for me.

I suppose the PS3's many "non-HD" games can be attributed to Peter Moore as well :roll:

The fact that games look above and beyond that of last-gen is enough for me.

BambooBanger

[QUOTE="mattbbpl"]

I can't tell the difference between 640p and 720p unless I get down and look at two relatively large images side by side.

Most people can't tell and, hence, don't care. Shoot, the PS2's graphics were atrocious compared to both the Xbox and the Gamecube, yet it's still heralded as a great system.

skektek

Maybe I'm the only one who can't tell the difference between the two. Either way, I still can't tell the difference so it doesn't bother me.

It's very difficult to tell the difference between 640p and 720p. 1080i is king though, and after Christmas I'll be playing my 360 on a 42 inch 1080i TV._pulser_

It doesn't matter. Didn't you read?

It's up to the developers to use the system properly if you want anything over 640p native.

[QUOTE="BambooBanger"]

I suppose the PS3's many "non-HD" games can be attributed to Peter Moore as well :roll:

The fact that games look above and beyond that of last-gen is enough for me.

skektek

What PS3 games, other than multi-plats, are there ?

[QUOTE="skektek"][QUOTE="BambooBanger"]

I suppose the PS3's many "non-HD" games can be attributed to Peter Moore as well :roll:

The fact that games look above and beyond that of last-gen is enough for me.

BambooBanger

What PS3 games, other than multi-plats, are there ?

Oh c'mon.

Just look up any 1st party Sony title, it's not hard.

[QUOTE="mattbbpl"]

I can't tell the difference between 640p and 720p unless I get down and look at two relatively large images side by side.

Most people can't tell and, hence, don't care. Shoot, the PS2's graphics were atrocious compared to both the Xbox and the Gamecube, yet it's still heralded as a great system.

crispytheone88

Agreed, this is very nitpicky, the fact remains, anything over 480p can be considered HD

as for tiling, the bandwidth of the 360 memory is so fast the tiling CAN be used with little effect on performance

Wow. Gears,Lost Planet,Bioshock,are probally not 720 either.real45

OOOoo they are horrible games now :?

Most people can't tell the difference between 640p upscaled to 720p, 720p to 1080p or even native 720p and 1080p(which is almost twice the pixel count!). But bigger resolution certainly is better if you can have it for the same price.

Now what's the native resolution of Ps3 games? I highly doubt they are different from 360 games.

Must be why the PS3 version of COD4, (made by a separate and IW's best team) was in a sub-720p resolution. Looks like the problem is also inherent with the PS3.Hoobinator

Most people can't tell the difference between 640p upscaled to 720p, 720p to 1080p or even native 720p and 1080p(which is almost twice the pixel count!). But bigger resolution certainly is better if you can have it for the same price.

Now what's the native resolution of Ps3 games? I highly doubt they are different from 360 games.

lordxymor

[QUOTE="skektek"][QUOTE="BambooBanger"]

I suppose the PS3's many "non-HD" games can be attributed to Peter Moore as well :roll:

The fact that games look above and beyond that of last-gen is enough for me.

BambooBanger

What PS3 games, other than multi-plats, are there ?

[QUOTE="BambooBanger"]

I suppose the PS3's many "non-HD" games can be attributed to Peter Moore as well :roll:

The fact that games look above and beyond that of last-gen is enough for me.

skektek

But everything at a reasolutino above 600p is HD, is it not?

[QUOTE="skektek"][QUOTE="BambooBanger"]

I suppose the PS3's many "non-HD" games can be attributed to Peter Moore as well :roll:

The fact that games look above and beyond that of last-gen is enough for me.

Dreams-Visions

But everything at a reasolutino above 600p is HD, is it not?

I'm not real sure what the technical cutoff is when not using standard resolutions.

480i is standard def, 480p is extended def, and 720p/1080p are hi def. The areas in the middle of those appear to be gray areas.

Probably best not to get too involved with the tags associated to them. The actual resolutions (i.e. 640p, 720p, etc) are more descriptive anyway.

[QUOTE="skektek"][QUOTE="BambooBanger"]

I suppose the PS3's many "non-HD" games can be attributed to Peter Moore as well :roll:

The fact that games look above and beyond that of last-gen is enough for me.

Dreams-Visions

But everything at a reasolutino above 600p is HD, is it not?

Uhh.... Sorry to burst your bubble but the GPU also has access to the 512MB of GDDR3 RAM that it shares with the rest of the system. The eDRAM like you mentioned is mainly used for anti-aliasing, z-buffering, and alpha-blending. The eDRAM isn't used for storing images.

The reason why many Xbox 360 games are kept at 640p is to keep framerates stable. As any PC gamer knows, the higher the resolution, the lower the framerate. This is more of a GPU/CPU/whole system RAM problem than just the eDRAM.

Uhh.... Sorry to burst your bubble but the GPU also has access to the 512MB of GDDR3 RAM that it shares with the rest of the system. The eDRAM like you mentioned is mainly used for anti-aliasing, z-buffering, and alpha-blending. The eDRAM isn't used for storing images.

The reason why many Xbox 360 games are kept at 640p is to keep framerates stable. As any PC gamer knows, the higher the resolution, the lower the framerate. This is more of a GPU/CPU/whole system RAM problem than just the eDRAM.

LoserMike

...*to be perfectly fair there is a two-fold benefit to using 640p as opposed to HD:.....it is simply less pixels for the hardware to have to push around...SkekTek

I hope you mean 1080P... 1080i looks worse then 720P in most cases. 1080P appears to have much less jaggies

It's very difficult to tell the difference between 640p and 720p. 1080i is king though, and after Christmas I'll be playing my 360 on a 42 inch 1080i TV._pulser_

[QUOTE="Hoobinator"]Must be why the PS3 version of COD4, (made by a separate and IW's best team) was in a sub-720p resolution. Looks like the problem is also inherent with the PS3.skektek

In your original post you suggest it's a case of the 360 holding the PS3 back. But I've clearly debunked this with the FACT that COD4 was made by a separate and IW's best team working solely on the PS3 version. So explain to me how the 360 is holding back the PS3?

I'll answer: It's not. There are plenty of games that look great and run at 720p on the 360. GRAW2 and GEOW are the two that spring to mind straight away.

[QUOTE="LoserMike"]

Uhh.... Sorry to burst your bubble but the GPU also has access to the 512MB of GDDR3 RAM that it shares with the rest of the system. The eDRAM like you mentioned is mainly used for anti-aliasing, z-buffering, and alpha-blending. The eDRAM isn't used for storing images.

The reason why many Xbox 360 games are kept at 640p is to keep framerates stable. As any PC gamer knows, the higher the resolution, the lower the framerate. This is more of a GPU/CPU/whole system RAM problem than just the eDRAM.

skektek

...The eDRAM is an embedded 10MB bank of DRAM with additional logic for post processing effects. It seemed like a win-win situation where developers could get "free" AA, DOF, motion blur, etc....SkekTek

...*to be perfectly fair there is a two-fold benefit to using 640p as opposed to HD:.....it is simply less pixels for the hardware to have to push around...SkekTek

Yeah, I read your first post:

The 10MB of eDRAM isn't large enough to store a 720p image, the largest image that can be stored is in a non-standard-sub-HD video mode dubbed "640p".skektek

My reponse is that the eDRAM isn't used to store images, the 512MB GDDR3 RAM is used to store images. The 512MB is shared, any part of the 360 can use it whether it is for graphics, sound, physics, or AI. Like one of the posters above mention, it isn't the eDRAM fault that the 360 can't perform 720p at stable framerates, it's the whole System fault. To perform 1080p a system would need 1GB of RAM at minimum.

[QUOTE="skektek"][QUOTE="Hoobinator"]Must be why the PS3 version of COD4, (made by a separate and IW's best team) was in a sub-720p resolution. Looks like the problem is also inherent with the PS3.Hoobinator

In your original post you suggest it's a case of the 360 holding the PS3 back. But I've clearly debunked this with the FACT that COD4 was made by a separate and IW's best team working solely on the PS3 version. So explain to me how the 360 is holding back the PS3?

I'll answer: It's not. There are plenty of games that look great and run at 720p on the 360. GRAW2 and GEOW are the two that spring to mind straight away.

[QUOTE="skektek"][QUOTE="LoserMike"]

Uhh.... Sorry to burst your bubble but the GPU also has access to the 512MB of GDDR3 RAM that it shares with the rest of the system. The eDRAM like you mentioned is mainly used for anti-aliasing, z-buffering, and alpha-blending. The eDRAM isn't used for storing images.

The reason why many Xbox 360 games are kept at 640p is to keep framerates stable. As any PC gamer knows, the higher the resolution, the lower the framerate. This is more of a GPU/CPU/whole system RAM problem than just the eDRAM.

LoserMike

...The eDRAM is an embedded 10MB bank of DRAM with additional logic for post processing effects. It seemed like a win-win situation where developers could get "free" AA, DOF, motion blur, etc....SkekTek

...*to be perfectly fair there is a two-fold benefit to using 640p as opposed to HD:.....it is simply less pixels for the hardware to have to push around...SkekTek

Yeah, I read your first post:

The 10MB of eDRAM isn't large enough to store a 720p image, the largest image that can be stored is in a non-standard-sub-HD video mode dubbed "640p".skektek

My reponse is that the eDRAM isn't used to store images, the 512MB GDDR3 RAM is used to store images. The 512MB is shared, any part of the 360 can use it whether it is for graphics, sound, physics, or AI. Like one of the posters above mention, it isn't the eDRAM fault that the 360 can't perform 720p at stable framerates, it's the whole System fault. To perform 1080p a system would need 1GB of RAM at minimum.

[QUOTE="Hoobinator"]

[QUOTE="skektek"][QUOTE="Hoobinator"]Must be why the PS3 version of COD4, (made by a separate and IW's best team) was in a sub-720p resolution. Looks like the problem is also inherent with the PS3.skektek

In your original post you suggest it's a case of the 360 holding the PS3 back. But I've clearly debunked this with the FACT that COD4 was made by a separate and IW's best team working solely on the PS3 version. So explain to me how the 360 is holding back the PS3?

I'll answer: It's not. There are plenty of games that look great and run at 720p on the 360. GRAW2 and GEOW are the two that spring to mind straight away.

Are you simple? How can it be dumbed down when separate teams were working on the 360 and PS3 versions of COD4???? The team working on the PS3 was not porting, or bringing over anything from the 360 version. It was made and optimised according to only the PS3 hardware.

It's astonishing that you don't get it. The 360 and PS3 had separate development cycles, yet they both ended up being sub-720p resolutions. It goes to show that the problem also lies with the PS3.

If I can't simplify it any further for you then just think of the 360 and PS3 COD4 games as separate games, they were made separately.

And I brought up GEOW and GRAW2 to show that the EDRAM is not a hindrance when you've got great looking games on the system running at 720p and AA.

[QUOTE="skektek"][QUOTE="Hoobinator"]

[QUOTE="skektek"][QUOTE="Hoobinator"]Must be why the PS3 version of COD4, (made by a separate and IW's best team) was in a sub-720p resolution. Looks like the problem is also inherent with the PS3.Hoobinator

In your original post you suggest it's a case of the 360 holding the PS3 back. But I've clearly debunked this with the FACT that COD4 was made by a separate and IW's best team working solely on the PS3 version. So explain to me how the 360 is holding back the PS3?

I'll answer: It's not. There are plenty of games that look great and run at 720p on the 360. GRAW2 and GEOW are the two that spring to mind straight away.

Are you simple? How can it be dumbed down when separate teams were working on the 360 and PS3 versions of COD4???? The team working on the PS3 was not porting, or bringing over anything from the 360 version. It was made and optimised according to only the PS3 hardware.

It's astonishing that you don't get it. The 360 and PS3 had separate development cycles, yet they both ended up being sub-720p resolutions. It goes to show that the problem also lies with the PS3.

If I can't simplify it any further for you then just think of the 360 and PS3 COD4 games as separate games, they were made separately.

And I brought up GEOW and GRAW2 to show that the EDRAM is not a hindrance when you've got great looking games on the system running at 720p and AA.

[QUOTE="PayDaMurdaMan"][QUOTE="crispytheone88"][QUOTE="mattbbpl"]

I can't tell the difference between 640p and 720p unless I get down and look at two relatively large images side by side.

Most people can't tell and, hence, don't care. Shoot, the PS2's graphics were atrocious compared to both the Xbox and the Gamecube, yet it's still heralded as a great system.

farrell2k

Agreed, this is very nitpicky, the fact remains, anything over 480p can be considered HD

as for tiling, the bandwidth of the 360 memory is so fast the tiling CAN be used with little effect on performance

Nooooooo.

ED = 480 or 576 progressive.

HD = ANYTHING over 480 or 576, 720 and 1080 are just more comon HD resolutions.

@ TC. 640P is HD, whether you want to believe it or not.

I can't tell the difference between 640p and 720p unless I get down and look at two relatively large images side by side.

Most people can't tell and, hence, don't care. Shoot, the PS2's graphics were atrocious compared to both the Xbox and the Gamecube, yet it's still heralded as a great system.

mattbbpl

So um.. just don't use the eDRAM then? How is that a liability.. its not like the competition has that to give it an advantage over the xbox.user_nat

[QUOTE="user_nat"]So um.. just don't use the eDRAM then? How is that a liability.. its not like the competition has that to give it an advantage over the xbox.skektek

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if what I think your saying is correct. Does that mean that very few games have actually used the eDRAM then. Because the vast majority of titles are 720p (or rarely higher). 600/640p titles are like.. Halo 3, PDZ, CoD4, TH:AW and the PGR games? (I'm sure there are probably a few others). So either 90% of 360 titles don't use the eDRAM or the eDRAM can be used for 720p. Or I'm completely wrong, which is an option I don't like :P

[QUOTE="mattbbpl"]

I can't tell the difference between 640p and 720p unless I get down and look at two relatively large images side by side.

Most people can't tell and, hence, don't care. Shoot, the PS2's graphics were atrocious compared to both the Xbox and the Gamecube, yet it's still heralded as a great system.

L1qu1dSword

Just for your own information (it might be beneficial to you, I don't know), but HDMI isn't a requirement for 1080p. HDMI basically just gives the consumer more stringent DRM, audio and video in one cable, and a richer color set.

[QUOTE="user_nat"]So um.. just don't use the eDRAM then? How is that a liability.. its not like the competition has that to give it an advantage over the xbox.skektek

I think a bad precedent for development is the skimping of important gaming features like video ram by SONY in favor of pushing their NON-gaming interests down the throats of their once-massive fanbase. Blu-Ray is just flat out unnecsary. It drove the cost of the console way up while also causing it to lose out in additional technologies that would have given the company a better edge going into this battle. I'm sorry but 256mb of vid mem is just not enough for a console that costs as much as the PS3 has this generation.

Thankfully the people have spoken and SONY's arrogant treatment of fans has been noted and responded to by the consumer and SONY suffers. The companies that focus on the games are the ones that win. That's what made PS2 so great. That's what make 360 and Wii hands down better.

[QUOTE="skektek"][QUOTE="user_nat"]So um.. just don't use the eDRAM then? How is that a liability.. its not like the competition has that to give it an advantage over the xbox.user_nat

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if what I think your saying is correct. Does that mean that very few games have actually used the eDRAM then. Because the vast majority of titles are 720p (or rarely higher). 600/640p titles are like.. Halo 3, PDZ, CoD4, TH:AW and the PGR games? (I'm sure there are probably a few others). So either 90% of 360 titles don't use the eDRAM or the eDRAM can be used for 720p. Or I'm completely wrong, which is an option I don't like :P

[QUOTE="skektek"][QUOTE="user_nat"]So um.. just don't use the eDRAM then? How is that a liability.. its not like the competition has that to give it an advantage over the xbox.L1qu1dSword

I think a bad precedent for development is the skimping of important gaming features like video ram by SONY in favor of pushing their NON-gaming interests down the throats of their once-massive fanbase. Blu-Ray is just flat out unnecsary. It drove the cost of the console way up while also causing it to lose out in additional technologies that would have given the company a better edge going into this battle. I'm sorry but 256mb of vid mem is just not enough for a console that costs as much as the PS3 has this generation.

Thankfully the people have spoken and SONY's arrogant treatment of fans has been noted and responded to by the consumer and SONY suffers. The companies that focus on the games are the ones that win. That's what made PS2 so great. That's what make 360 and Wii hands down better.