Xbox 360 graphics disappointments due to dev kits?

That's more true to the Wii than the 360 considering for the Wii it's like "Figure it out yourself!"

RAGE is multi, so it's probably gonna look better on the 360.

No. Dev-kits usually have twice the RAM to run development tools in the background, it's been this way every since the PSone dev-kit. The N64 dev kit was just a N64 with the RAM expansion pack, a 64DD type device to write data, and a dev cartridge connected to a SGI computer. It probably has to do with devs prioritizing framerate over effects, textures, and animations.

Also RAGE is multi-platform.

RAGE is multi, so it's probably gonna look better on the 360.

GreenGoblin2099

Same thing can easily be said for PS3 games. I thought it was strange that the 2007 alpha build of Killzone 2 actually looked better than the retail game.

huh?

games can do other things apart from graphics.

I'm sure Bungie could make the game look even better if they sacrificed features. pretty sure the video capture software running in the background for theater eats up resources.

take your picks?

No. Dev-kits usually have twice the RAM to run development tools in the background, it's been this way every since the PSone dev-kit. The N64 dev kit was just a N64 with the RAM expansion pack, a 64DD type device to write data, and a dev cartridge connected to a SGI computer. It probably has to do with devs prioritizing framerate over effects, textures, and animations.

Also RAGE is multi-platform.

LoserMike

They're called bullshots. Everybody, on every system does 'em.

They're called bullshots. Everybody, on every system does 'em.

gamecubepad

fallacy.

the PC is the only System that can run bullshots at over 60 FPS:P

[QUOTE="gamecubepad"]

They're called bullshots. Everybody, on every system does 'em.

HavocV3

fallacy.

the PC is the only System that can run bullshots at over 60 FPS:P

Uh, oh. Ya got me.:P

They're called bullshots. Everybody, on every system does 'em.

gamecubepad

[QUOTE="LoserMike"]

No. Dev-kits usually have twice the RAM to run development tools in the background, it's been this way every since the PSone dev-kit. The N64 dev kit was just a N64 with the RAM expansion pack, a 64DD type device to write data, and a dev cartridge connected to a SGI computer. It probably has to do with devs prioritizing framerate over effects, textures, and animations.

Also RAGE is multi-platform.

dragonboot

That and the devs themselves...

[QUOTE="gamecubepad"]

They're called bullshots. Everybody, on every system does 'em.

dragonboot

So you created an alt-account to make up meaningless claims in order to DC how good Rage looked on 360? Come on.

BTW, Reach is exceeding the hype it had for it's gfx. Everybody wrote it off, but it looks great.

[QUOTE="GreenGoblin2099"]

RAGE is multi, so it's probably gonna look better on the 360.

dragonboot

It's probably gonna fail to meet the hype.

I don't care that 360 games match or beat the PS3 in exclusives when it comes to graphics; most people play multiplats rather than exclusives nowadays (& most of the multiplats being superior on the 360 makes up for that). Besides, most of the PC games like Crysis beats all of the PS3's exclusives in that category, anyway. Very soon, the PC version of Crysis 2 will take over.

[QUOTE="dragonboot"][QUOTE="gamecubepad"]

They're called bullshots. Everybody, on every system does 'em.

gamecubepad

So you created an alt-account to make up meaningless claims in order to DC how good Rage looked on 360? Come on.

BTW, Reach is exceeding the hype it had for it's gfx. Everybody wrote it off, but it looks great.

[QUOTE="dragonboot"][QUOTE="GreenGoblin2099"]

RAGE is multi, so it's probably gonna look better on the 360.

It's probably gonna fail to meet the hype.

I don't care that 360 games match or beat the PS3 in exclusives when it comes to graphics; most people play multiplats rather than exclusives nowadays (& most of the multiplats being superior on the 360 makes up for that). Besides, most of the PC games like Crysis beats all of the PS3's exclusives in that category, anyway. Very soon, the PC version of Crysis 2 will take over.

huh?

games can do other things apart from graphics.

I'm sure Bungie could make the game look even better if they sacrificed features. pretty sure the video capture software running in the background for theater eats up resources.

take your picks?

HavocV3

Wii has been much worse. Anybody remember the original red steel trailer?

I am not to trying to bash RAGE here. I hope it meet the graphics hype. More power to the gamers. I think I point out something very important in the graphics debate. Game journalists have failed again and again to determine if a screenshot or a video given to them comes from a dev kit or from a retail version. I just think developers should be more honest and stop abusing the gamers' trust. I also think journalists should work harder to get to the truth.dragonboot

Rage, Reach, and Gears 3 will all look better than what has been shown at E3 by the time they release.

The dev kits don't have better GPUs from what I've read, so I think you're misunderstanding how bullshots are produced, and the fact you want Rage and Reach to look worse than they do is altering your perception.

Bullshots and footage could be produced just as easily from the old dev kits that didn't have the extra RAM. Just like on PC, you can raise the quality of the settings and take a great looking screen that looks awesome to the average joe blow out there, and conveniently hide the fact it's running at 5fps. Or like Bungie did(and was very open about), render the frames and reassemble them into a video that runs at a smooth framerate, despite the actual realtime version running at a sub-par framerate.

It's not 360 specific, and it has nothing to do with the 360 dev kits, and especially nothing to do with the extra RAM in the dev kits.

[QUOTE="dragonboot"]I am not to trying to bash RAGE here. I hope it meet the graphics hype. More power to the gamers. I think I point out something very important in the graphics debate. Game journalists have failed again and again to determine if a screenshot or a video given to them comes from a dev kit or from a retail version. I just think developers should be more honest and stop abusing the gamers' trust. I also think journalists should work harder to get to the truth.gamecubepad

Rage, Reach, and Gears 3 will all look better than what has been shown at E3 by the time they release.

The dev kits don't have better GPUs from what I've read, so I think you're misunderstanding how bullshots are produced, and the fact you want Rage and Reach to look worse than they do is altering your perception.

Bullshots and footage could be produced just as easily from the old dev kits that didn't have the extra RAM. Just like on PC, you can raise the quality of the settings and take a great looking screen that looks awesome to the average joe blow out there, and conveniently hide the fact it's running at 5fps. Or like Bungie did(and was very open about), render the frames and reassemble them into a video that runs at a smooth framerate, despite the actual realtime version running at a sub-par framerate.

It's not 360 specific, and it has nothing to do with the 360 dev kits, and especially nothing to do with the extra RAM in the dev kits.

[QUOTE="gamecubepad"]

[QUOTE="dragonboot"]I am not to trying to bash RAGE here. I hope it meet the graphics hype. More power to the gamers. I think I point out something very important in the graphics debate. Game journalists have failed again and again to determine if a screenshot or a video given to them comes from a dev kit or from a retail version. I just think developers should be more honest and stop abusing the gamers' trust. I also think journalists should work harder to get to the truth.dragonboot

Rage, Reach, and Gears 3 will all look better than what has been shown at E3 by the time they release.

The dev kits don't have better GPUs from what I've read, so I think you're misunderstanding how bullshots are produced, and the fact you want Rage and Reach to look worse than they do is altering your perception.

Bullshots and footage could be produced just as easily from the old dev kits that didn't have the extra RAM. Just like on PC, you can raise the quality of the settings and take a great looking screen that looks awesome to the average joe blow out there, and conveniently hide the fact it's running at 5fps. Or like Bungie did(and was very open about), render the frames and reassemble them into a video that runs at a smooth framerate, despite the actual realtime version running at a sub-par framerate.

It's not 360 specific, and it has nothing to do with the 360 dev kits, and especially nothing to do with the extra RAM in the dev kits.

No offense, but you have no idea what you're talking about. Anyone with basic computer knowledge should know that RAM often means nothing when it comes to graphics power. My crappy HD 4550 has 1gb RAM, but it's slaughtered by the 512mb HD 4870.

I totally disagree. If you play computer games and your computer has a small RAM, you can't play the games with all the graphics bells and visuals.dragonboot

The extra RAM was put in the dev kits for added convenience for developers. The Xenos can only handle a limited amount of resources, and given the nature of MegaTextures, extra RAM wouldn't do much, if anything to boost the gfx quality of Rage.

If they added more EDRAM onto the daughter die, or juiced up Xenos with a higher core speed, or more shader units, then you might have a chance at making a point, but they just added RAM.

Your post comes off very desperate. Why does it bother you so much that the 360 has a game or two that match the PS3 best looking titles?

[QUOTE="dragonboot"][QUOTE="gamecubepad"]

Rage, Reach, and Gears 3 will all look better than what has been shown at E3 by the time they release.

The dev kits don't have better GPUs from what I've read, so I think you're misunderstanding how bullshots are produced, and the fact you want Rage and Reach to look worse than they do is altering your perception.

Bullshots and footage could be produced just as easily from the old dev kits that didn't have the extra RAM. Just like on PC, you can raise the quality of the settings and take a great looking screen that looks awesome to the average joe blow out there, and conveniently hide the fact it's running at 5fps. Or like Bungie did(and was very open about), render the frames and reassemble them into a video that runs at a smooth framerate, despite the actual realtime version running at a sub-par framerate.

It's not 360 specific, and it has nothing to do with the 360 dev kits, and especially nothing to do with the extra RAM in the dev kits.

Esnedon

No offense, but you have no idea what you're talking about. Anyone with basic computer knowledge should know that RAM often means nothing when it comes to graphics power. My crappy HD 4550 has 1gb RAM, but it's slaughtered by the 512mb HD 4870.

[QUOTE="dragonboot"]I totally disagree. If you play computer games and your computer has a small RAM, you can't play the games with all the graphics bells and visuals.gamecubepad

The extra RAM was put in the dev kits for added convenience for developers. The Xenos can only handle a limited amount of resources, and given the nature of MegaTextures, extra RAM wouldn't do much, if anything to boost the gfx quality of Rage.

If they added more EDRAM onto the daughter die, or juiced up Xenos with a higher core speed, or more shader units, then you might have a chance at making a point, but they just added RAM.

Your post comes off very desperate. Why does it bother you so much that the 360 has a game or two that match the PS3 best looking titles?

I don't think your explanation makes sense. To me, without a doubt, the dev kits can produce better graphics performance than the retail versions. The 100% more RAM definitely makes it easier for the GPU to work on the graphics.dragonboot

So in-game gfx don't live up to the bullshots devs show before their release. Wow. Welcome to the world of videogames. This is not a 360-specific phenomenon.

A simple google search would yield the truth you claim to seek, but conveniently ignore...

360 Dev Kit upgrade

Original article

"You may not know it, but Microsoft shipped a new Xbox 360 development kit to studios earlier in the year. One striking difference was the inclusion of one-gigabytes of RAM. No, this does not mean that Microsoft will be releasing a new Xbox 360 with more memory; the new kit instead makes development a little easier.

Like the PlayStation 3 development kits (with 512MB of XDR, and 256MB of VRAM), the extra memory can be used to properly test your game. This was a problem for Xbox 360 developers before now, since extra memory from the 512MB pool would have to be put aside to test their game engine. Developers could of course disable these test features in order to use this spare memory, but that would mean that they wouldn't easily be able to test their game.

Therefore, a certain amount of memory would be sacrificed for their retail Xbox 360 game; this could amount to anything from 20MB's to as much as 100MB's. However, with the new Xbox 360 kit, this is no longer problem, giving that memory back to developers for the first time since the Xbox 360's launch in 2005."

---

So, unfortunately your conspiracy theory holds no weight. Your hope that Rage will look like crap is gone.

Why did you single out the 360 dev kits with extra memory, yet ignore the PS3 kits that had extra memory much longer than the 360? Well, that's obvious.

Every console does bullshots. Even the PS3. Just check out GT5, or on 360 FM3. PD and T10 are the masters of bullshots.

[QUOTE="dragonboot"] I don't think your explanation makes sense. To me, without a doubt, the dev kits can produce better graphics performance than the retail versions. The 100% more RAM definitely makes it easier for the GPU to work on the graphics.gamecubepad

So in-game gfx don't live up to the bullshots devs show before their release. Wow. Welcome to the world of videogames. This is not a 360-specific phenomenon.

A simple google search would yield the truth you claim to seek, but conveniently ignore...

360 Dev Kit upgrade

Original article

"You may not know it, but Microsoft shipped a new Xbox 360 development kit to studios earlier in the year. One striking difference was the inclusion of one-gigabytes of RAM. No, this does not mean that Microsoft will be releasing a new Xbox 360 with more memory; the new kit instead makes development a little easier.

Like the PlayStation 3 development kits (with 512MB of XDR, and 256MB of VRAM), the extra memory can be used to properly test your game. This was a problem for Xbox 360 developers before now, since extra memory from the 512MB pool would have to be put aside to test their game engine. Developers could of course disable these test features in order to use this spare memory, but that would mean that they wouldn't easily be able to test their game.

Therefore, a certain amount of memory would be sacrificed for their retail Xbox 360 game; this could amount to anything from 20MB's to as much as 100MB's. However, with the new Xbox 360 kit, this is no longer problem, giving that memory back to developers for the first time since the Xbox 360's launch in 2005."

---

So, unfortunately your conspiracy theory holds no weight. Your hope that Rage will look like crap is gone.

Why did you single out the 360 dev kits with extra memory, yet ignore the PS3 kits that had extra memory much longer than the 360? Well, that's obvious.

Every console does bullshots. Even the PS3. Just check out GT5, or on 360 FM3. PD and T10 are the masters of bullshots.

None taken. I do know what i am talking about. graphics depend on both RAM and the graphics card. If the graphics card are the same, the unit with the most RAM will have better graphics performance. In your example, the GPUs differ from one unit vs. the other.dragonboot

No it won't. More RAM just means you can fit more textures/geometry/etc. It won't run any faster. The only time more RAM would give you better performance would be if you had a PC game trying to keep too much texture/geometry data in memory, causing the driver to page data out of GPU memory. The extra memory in devkits is mainly so that developers can run debug builds (they're compiled without optimization which increases the size of the binaries), run debugging/profiling menus and visualization, or go a little over the memory limits without crashing. Teufelhuhn

[QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"] No it won't. More RAM just means you can fit more textures/geometry/etc. It won't run any faster. The only time more RAM would give you better performance would be if you had a PC game trying to keep too much texture/geometry data in memory, causing the driver to page data out of GPU memory. The extra memory in devkits is mainly so that developers can run debug builds (they're compiled without optimization which increases the size of the binaries), run debugging/profiling menus and visualization, or go a little over the memory limits without crashing. dragonboot

[QUOTE="gamecubepad"]

[QUOTE="dragonboot"]I am not to trying to bash RAGE here. I hope it meet the graphics hype. More power to the gamers. I think I point out something very important in the graphics debate. Game journalists have failed again and again to determine if a screenshot or a video given to them comes from a dev kit or from a retail version. I just think developers should be more honest and stop abusing the gamers' trust. I also think journalists should work harder to get to the truth.dragonboot

Rage, Reach, and Gears 3 will all look better than what has been shown at E3 by the time they release.

The dev kits don't have better GPUs from what I've read, so I think you're misunderstanding how bullshots are produced, and the fact you want Rage and Reach to look worse than they do is altering your perception.

Bullshots and footage could be produced just as easily from the old dev kits that didn't have the extra RAM. Just like on PC, you can raise the quality of the settings and take a great looking screen that looks awesome to the average joe blow out there, and conveniently hide the fact it's running at 5fps. Or like Bungie did(and was very open about), render the frames and reassemble them into a video that runs at a smooth framerate, despite the actual realtime version running at a sub-par framerate.

It's not 360 specific, and it has nothing to do with the 360 dev kits, and especially nothing to do with the extra RAM in the dev kits.

Increasing the VRAM doesn't directly influence shader performance or bandwidth dependant effects. The amount of VRAM doesn't always equal performance e.g. low end PC GPUs with large VRAM.

The alan wake engine was built for multicore pc's not the 360....ComBaTsOuL

Well, according to you, more RAM means more textures,geometry, etc. So, the Xbox 360 dev kit might not make a game run faster, but it will run with more textures, geometry, etc. To me this means better graphics performance. Therefore, a developer can use the dev kit to mislead gamers when it comes to graphics.dragonboot

[QUOTE="dragonboot"]Well, according to you, more RAM means more textures,geometry, etc. So, the Xbox 360 dev kit might not make a game run faster, but it will run with more textures, geometry, etc. To me this means better graphics performance. Therefore, a developer can use the dev kit to mislead gamers when it comes to graphics.Teufelhuhn

yeah one thing about that is that 360 dev kits have 1 gig of ram so the 512mbs is there that the 360 has, but 512 extra so devs can run all tools and other essentials in the extra ram so they aren't taking up that ram with tools and other such on the system.

@TC I found lost planet 2 to match pretty much what was shown...

Increasing the VRAM doesn't directly influence shader performance or bandwidth dependant effects. The amount of VRAM doesn't always equal performance e.g. low end PC GPUs with large VRAM.

ronvalencia

A good, simple analogy for this is the DMV. The workers are the unified shader processors, the pace at which they work is the core speed, and memory speed, and the lobby capacity is the RAM.

If they want to increase productivity, remodeling the lobby to increase occupant capacity will have a negligible effect, because in this example there's already enough room capacity to keep the workers busy 100% of the time. This is equivalent to adding more RAM to a system that's not memory bottlenecked.

The only way to increase productivity in this case is to either add more workers(i.e. more shader units), or make the workers work harder(i.e. overclock).

Oversimplified? Perhaps.:P

RAGE is multi, so it's probably gonna look better on the 360.

GreenGoblin2099