Xbox 360- Redringgate explained in depth

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spike6566

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#1 spike6566
Member since 2008 • 1630 Posts

Well i take it, that all of you probably read the article of RedRingGate . so my qeustion is, how do you guys feel about MS playing it cheap, and rushing a console and deal with the problems later kind of approach? personally i am still on my first 360 (launch 360) , but one thing is, i never play it. last time i played it was GTA4 release, and the next time il play it will be during GEOW 2 release. so yes i am affraid that my 360 will fail on me, which is why i never use it any more. i use it just for the exclusives for that system.

so with that out of the way, i really hope that MS cares for its consumers next time they come out with a console, instead of giving us electronics that will most likely break after a year use. I convinced my bro to get a 360 last year over the ps3, guess what he is on his 3rd 360. yes MS gives you a 3year warranty, but 3 consoles in one year is not good at all. I am just glad that i am a pc gamer , so i really never have time to play on my 360.

http:/// Link

"there's one thing former San Jose Mercury-News writer Dean Takahashi knows, it's Microsoft's gaming hardware. In 2002, his book Opening the Xbox recapped the making of the software giant's first entry into the console game industry. Shortly after Microsoft launched its follow-up, Takahashi followed suit with The Xbox 360 Uncloaked.

It's little surprise then that Takahashi, currently a writer for Silicon Valley blog VentureBeat, would be the guy to go whole-hog into the saga of the Xbox 360 hardware's ongoing reliability issues. In a newly published feature that Takahashi considers the final chapter of his Xbox 360 book, the reporter meticulously recounts how Microsoft launched a gaming system with unacceptably high failure rates and its attempts to address the problem.

In July of 2007, Microsoft publicly acknowledged the so-called "Red Ring of Death" issue and took a corresponding financial hit of more than $1 billion to fix it. Prior to that acknowledgement, Takahashi reports that Microsoft had taken returns on 1.2 million of the roughly 11.6 million shipped Xbox 360s. However, the problems responsible for that return rate had been around since before the console hit shelves.

Takahashi quotes a Microsoft engineer who raised the issue of hardware reliability in August of 2005, months before the system's November launch. At the time, 68 of every 100 Xbox 360s made by Microsoft's Chinese manufacturing partners were coming off the line nonfunctional. Worse still, when the first batch of the system's three-core CPUs rolled off the line, only 16 percent worked.

On top of that, Microsoft reportedly altered the design of the system repeatedly in the latter stages of development. The company added hard drives to most machines and made wireless controllers standard, further blocking cooling airflow inside the console. There were even issues with the QA machines that supposedly ensured the 360's system reliability. Takahashi reports that the machines would approve faulty units and were not properly debugged because Microsoft wanted to save $2 million on a $25 million contract with its third-party manufacturer.

"It turned out in the end that this was all going too far, too fast," an unnamed source told Takahashi. "They were adding too many features after things were locked down. That incremental feature adding just made it fragile."

The article goes on to say the post-launch shortage of Xbox 360 systems was due partly to Microsoft's inability to make enough functioning units to satisfy demand. In the spring of 2006, Microsoft had half a million returned or defective units sitting in warehouses, all while publicly stating that returns were within normal rates for consumer electronics.

Problems with quality control continued to plague the system, so much so that Microsoft actually ceased production of the Xbox 360 in 2007 between January and June to find and address the issue, according to the report. The production stoppage was also due to a surplus of systems at retailers from the prior holiday season, a fact which led to accusations of channel-stuffing on Microsoft's part.

As for what the ultimate culprit for the faulty console was, Takahashi reports it was a combination of factors. The ATI graphics chip had overheating issues, solder joints were prone to failure, and assembly and memory issues were widespread.

"The video game industry has never seen a consumer problem as bad as the 'red rings of death' and the size of the $1.15 billion charge stands as one of the biggest liability glitches in consumer electronics history," Takahashi wrote. "How Microsoft handled the flaw may provide a lesson for all modern electronics companies; that is, if you are going to promote the hell out of something, it better work the way you say it does, and you better have a strong customer support and engineering debugging team to back it up."

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Dreams-Visions

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#2 Dreams-Visions
Member since 2006 • 26578 Posts

Great read.

Interesting to know it was about more than just the solder joints as has been suggested.

So did they solve the issues at this point? Breakdown numbers around normal levels?

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Cicatraz_ESP

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#3 Cicatraz_ESP
Member since 2006 • 1993 Posts

Great read.

Interesting to know it was about more than just the solder joints as has been suggested.

So did they solve the issues at this point? Breakdown numbers around normal levels?

Dreams-Visions
I agree it was pretty interesting
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twopistols3k

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#4 twopistols3k
Member since 2008 • 51 Posts
The 360 will go down as the biggest hardware glitch in gaming history (outperforming the NES)!
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Saturos3091

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#5 Saturos3091
Member since 2005 • 14937 Posts
That was a pretty decent read, sheds new light on the issue. I hope MS fixes it soon, although I haven't gotten one since March of '07.
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Dreams-Visions

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#6 Dreams-Visions
Member since 2006 • 26578 Posts

The 360 will go down as the biggest hardware glitch in gaming history (outperforming the NES)!twopistols3k
indeed. but if they've fixed it now, they should be okay going forward.

That was a pretty decent read, sheds new light on the issue. I hope MS fixes it soon, although I haven't gotten one since March of '07.Saturos3091
my falcon-based elite runs nice and cool. my launch system ran like it was on fire.
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Saturos3091

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#7 Saturos3091
Member since 2005 • 14937 Posts
my falcon-based elite runs nice and cool. my launch system ran like it was on fire.Dreams-Visions


That's good, it seems they've been working on the issue for quite some time and it's decreasing in frequency, which is great. I have a cooling device attached to mine.
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killab2oo5

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#8 killab2oo5
Member since 2005 • 13621 Posts
And I always thought Microsoft were just too cheap or lazy to fix the problem. Guess that would be wrong this, because this was costing them money. :) Good read.
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naruto7777

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#9 naruto7777
Member since 2007 • 8059 Posts
thats great
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spike6566

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#10 spike6566
Member since 2008 • 1630 Posts
yah it was a good read. i think MS will do it right next gen.
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TOAO_Cyrus1

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#11 TOAO_Cyrus1
Member since 2004 • 2895 Posts

Hmm so the failure rate was around 10% in the first year and a half. Not quite as bad as some people claim but still bad. First hard numbers we have seen, very interesting. Of course more of that group have probably broken since then. If it was 10% from the first run prior to shutting down production it must be much lower now, probably in acceptable range. I don't think anyone has much to fear these days especially with the warranty. Obviously most of those people claiming they had 5 broken 360's (a large percentage of cows on system wars in 2006) were lieing. I mean 10% * 10% *10% * 10% *10% = 0.00001% chance of that happening assuming 11.6 million users. Thats 116 total. Of course I dont have all the facts and am probably worng with the numbers but you get the idea.

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dr_jashugan

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#12 dr_jashugan
Member since 2006 • 2665 Posts
M$ doesn't care for its customers. It only wants a piece of the console market at all cost (at its customers expenses). 8)
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Jynxzor

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#13 Jynxzor
Member since 2003 • 9313 Posts

I still think the RROD was very ignorant of Microsoft to ever even think of releasing to the public, the article states they even knew anout wich is obvious to anyone with common sense but I have had people fight me over it.

"Worse still, when the first batch of the system's three-core CPUs rolled off the line, only 16 percent worked."

I'm glad MS is still geting flack over this, and the stigma will remain even into next generation that Microsoft releasing crappy hardware. It may not be true but they deserved every last bit of hate they are receiving over this, paying money to fix the issue was not out of the kindness of there hearts they took a lesson from the PS2 and decided to "Make a gesture of kindness" before a class action lawsuit reared it's ugly head.

Ugh I hate even talking about the RROD it just boils my blood, funny thing my launch system has yet to RROD but runs as hot as my furnace -_-

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Popadophalis

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#14 Popadophalis
Member since 2007 • 1587 Posts
Hmm didn't really find alot depth in that article... It just retread the old ground of M$ releasing the console early regardless of quality to gain a lead in the console race.
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primateface

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#15 primateface
Member since 2008 • 1095 Posts

As for what the ultimate culprit for the faulty console was, Takahashi reports it was a combination of factors. The ATI graphics chip had overheating issues, solder joints were prone to failure, and assembly and memory issues were widespread.

DUST=OVERHEATING GPU lol

GG PWNED

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PS3_3DO

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#16 PS3_3DO
Member since 2006 • 10976 Posts

M$ doesn't care for its customers. It only wants a piece of the console market at all cost (at its customers expenses). 8)dr_jashugan

And Sony does care? :? :| :D :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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elbow2k

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#17 elbow2k
Member since 2007 • 1645 Posts

Heh... anyone else get an eerie feeling when they read that an "un-named engineer" brought the issue up to the big powerful titan that is Microsoft.

Sounds soo... fictional? Feels like something out of one of those experiments gone bad stories, with one sane scientist attempting to reason with an uninterested superpower.

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Microsoft1234

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#18 Microsoft1234
Member since 2006 • 7683 Posts

Hmm so the failure rate was around 10% in the first year and a half. Not quite as bad as some people claim but still bad. First hard numbers we have seen, very interesting. Of course more of that group have probably broken since then. If it was 10% from the first run prior to shutting down production it must be much lower now, probably in acceptable range. I don't think anyone has much to fear these days especially with the warranty. Obviously most of those people claiming they had 5 broken 360's (a large percentage of cows on system wars in 2006) were lieing. I mean 10% * 10% *10% * 10% *10% = 0.00001% chance of that happening assuming 11.6 million users. Thats 116 total. Of course I dont have all the facts and am probably worng with the numbers but you get the idea.

TOAO_Cyrus1

im about to go on my 5th 360 .....

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elbow2k

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#19 elbow2k
Member since 2007 • 1645 Posts

[QUOTE="dr_jashugan"]M$ doesn't care for its customers. It only wants a piece of the console market at all cost (at its customers expenses). 8)PS3_3DO

And Sony does care? :? :| :D :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Why don't you go back to being a lemming? Like seriously, you're a flaming PS3 hater unlike no other.

For the record, at least Sony puts out a competant product that doesn't brake down you try to play video games on it...

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primateface

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#20 primateface
Member since 2008 • 1095 Posts

Air get's pulled past xbox360's gpu heatsink and dust will collect on it like this pc cpu heatsink and make the cpu/gpu run hotter than it being clean as and makes chance of it overheating greater.

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godofwar2610

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#21 godofwar2610
Member since 2008 • 577 Posts

[QUOTE="dr_jashugan"]M$ doesn't care for its customers. It only wants a piece of the console market at all cost (at its customers expenses). 8)PS3_3DO

And Sony does care? :? :| :D :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Many people won't agree but i believe sony does care for its customers. It gives us free online, Home is gonna be free, games have mod support and for $700 (Australian) i got a gaming machine that plays bluray, dvds, has in-built wifi, in-built power supply, backwards compatability and free online out of the box. So yes i do believe Sony cares for its customors.

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PS3_3DO

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#22 PS3_3DO
Member since 2006 • 10976 Posts
[QUOTE="PS3_3DO"]

[QUOTE="dr_jashugan"]M$ doesn't care for its customers. It only wants a piece of the console market at all cost (at its customers expenses). 8)elbow2k

And Sony does care? :? :| :D :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Why don't you go back to being a lemming? Like seriously, you're a flaming PS3 hater unlike no other.

For the record, at least Sony puts out a competant product that doesn't brake down you try to play video games on it...

Maybe Sony learned from the PS2 problems. MS should learn that lesson too and next gen have a console that is a lot more reliable.

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primateface

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#23 primateface
Member since 2008 • 1095 Posts
everyone killed their 360 LOL.
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Pariah_001

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#24 Pariah_001
Member since 2003 • 4850 Posts

[QUOTE="dr_jashugan"]M$ doesn't care for its customers. It only wants a piece of the console market at all cost (at its customers expenses). 8)PS3_3DO

And Sony does care? :? :| :D :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

They certainly cared enough to make sure their hardware was reliable.

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elbow2k

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#25 elbow2k
Member since 2007 • 1645 Posts
[QUOTE="elbow2k"]

Maybe Sony learned from the PS2 problems. MS should learn that lesson too and next gen have a console that is a lot more reliable.

PS3_3DO

First off, why then make a moronic comment like the one you made, clearly he did not even mention the PS3, but your hatred towards the PS3 obviously brought it out, which pretty much proves that you are exactly like every rabid fanboy in System Wars.

Second off, the disk read error wasn't even close to being as big of an issue as the RROD, not even close.

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WilliamRLBaker

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#26 WilliamRLBaker
Member since 2006 • 28915 Posts
[QUOTE="PS3_3DO"]

[QUOTE="dr_jashugan"]M$ doesn't care for its customers. It only wants a piece of the console market at all cost (at its customers expenses). 8)elbow2k

And Sony does care? :? :| :D :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Why don't you go back to being a lemming? Like seriously, you're a flaming PS3 hater unlike no other.

For the record, at least Sony puts out a competant product that doesn't brake down you try to play video games on it...

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml07/07011.html sony battery recall

http://www.tuaw.com/2006/11/26/sony-recalls-eight-cyber-shot-models/ sony cyber shot recall

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-sony-vaio-recall-080904-ht,0,6001851.story sony vaio recall

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=DRE&word2=RROD DRE vs RROD DRE gets more

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=PS2+DRE&word2=360+RROD PS2 DRE vs RROD PS2 DRE gets more

Yes sony puts out the most amazing technology that never breaks infact they have found sony tech still working in the tombs of egypt!
The Ps2 DRE was bigger then the 360 rrod thats a fact it was never fixed the DRE was still happening to ps2 slim lines today.

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elbow2k

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#27 elbow2k
Member since 2007 • 1645 Posts
[QUOTE="elbow2k"]

Why don't you go back to being a lemming? Like seriously, you're a flaming PS3 hater unlike no other.

For the record, at least Sony puts out a competant product that doesn't brake down you try to play video games on it...

WilliamRLBaker

Yes sony puts out the most amazing technology that never breaks infact they have found sony tech still working in the tombs of egypt!
The Ps2 DRE was bigger then the 360 rrod thats a fact it was never fixed the DRE was still happening to ps2 slim lines today.

I'm sorry, what exactly are you getting at?

Furthermore, I don't see Sony losing 1 billion dollars because a malfunctioning video game product.

Another fanboy?

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Jackman1

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#28 Jackman1
Member since 2003 • 135 Posts
[QUOTE="PS3_3DO"]

[QUOTE="dr_jashugan"]M$ doesn't care for its customers. It only wants a piece of the console market at all cost (at its customers expenses). 8)elbow2k

And Sony does care? :? :| :D :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Why don't you go back to being a lemming? Like seriously, you're a flaming PS3 hater unlike no other.

For the record, at least Sony puts out a competant product that doesn't brake down you try to play video games on it...

yet his point remains true. if you really think sony cares about all their customers, then you should probably take another IQ test to confirm mental retardation

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Jackman1

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#29 Jackman1
Member since 2003 • 135 Posts
[QUOTE="elbow2k"][QUOTE="PS3_3DO"]

[QUOTE="dr_jashugan"]M$ doesn't care for its customers. It only wants a piece of the console market at all cost (at its customers expenses). 8)Jackman1

And Sony does care? :? :| :D :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Why don't you go back to being a lemming? Like seriously, you're a flaming PS3 hater unlike no other.

For the record, at least Sony puts out a competant product that doesn't brake down you try to play video games on it...

yet his point remains true. if you really think sony cares about all their customers, then you should probably take another IQ test to confirm mental retardation

And you also fail because the PS2 had plenty of DRE errors. Nice try buddy

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Jackman1

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#30 Jackman1
Member since 2003 • 135 Posts
[QUOTE="elbow2k"][QUOTE="PS3_3DO"]

[QUOTE="dr_jashugan"]M$ doesn't care for its customers. It only wants a piece of the console market at all cost (at its customers expenses). 8)Jackman1

And Sony does care? :? :| :D :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Why don't you go back to being a lemming? Like seriously, you're a flaming PS3 hater unlike no other.

For the record, at least Sony puts out a competant product that doesn't brake down you try to play video games on it...

yet his point remains true. if you really think sony cares about all their customers, then you should probably take another IQ test to confirm mental retardation

And you also fail because the PS2 had plenty of DRE errors. Nice try buddy

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Al3x_n90

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#31 Al3x_n90
Member since 2007 • 2561 Posts

Air get's pulled past xbox360's gpu heatsink and dust will collect on it like this pc cpu heatsink and make the cpu/gpu run hotter than it being clean as and makes chance of it overheating greater.

primateface

Man that's ugly and looks just like a PC :P

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elbow2k

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#32 elbow2k
Member since 2007 • 1645 Posts
[QUOTE="Jackman1"]

yet his point remains true. if you really think sony cares about all their customers, then you should probably take another IQ test to confirm mental retardation

Jackman1

And you also fail because the PS2 had plenty of DRE errors. Nice try buddy

I guess the reading comprehension skills of System Wars is at an all time low.

He brought up Sony because of his own self hate towards them, I rebutted saying that they can at least put out a competant product that doesn't brake when you play video games. Tell me, with your infinate wisdom, did any of what I had to say contain any comment directed towards Sony caring for their customers? Furthermore, you equate a problem which was easily fixed within the span of a year to something which was made Microsoft spend more than a billion dollars attempting to fix the solution; you must be another fanboy.

Keep on riding waaaammmbulance fanboys.

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BoD_GOA_French

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#33 BoD_GOA_French
Member since 2006 • 971 Posts
[QUOTE="elbow2k"][QUOTE="PS3_3DO"]

[QUOTE="dr_jashugan"]M$ doesn't care for its customers. It only wants a piece of the console market at all cost (at its customers expenses). 8)Jackman1

And Sony does care? :? :| :D :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Why don't you go back to being a lemming? Like seriously, you're a flaming PS3 hater unlike no other.

For the record, at least Sony puts out a competant product that doesn't brake down you try to play video games on it...

yet his point remains true. if you really think sony cares about all their customers, then you should probably take another IQ test to confirm mental retardation

I had to ship my PS3 to sony 5 months after my warranty expired because GTA would freeze on me. The could have charged me, but they didn't and I got a brand new PS3 back in 4 days. so ya, sony really doesn't care about its customers...:roll: looks like you're the retard!

P.S. How long does it take to get a 360 back from repair? thats what i thought...

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SpinoRaptor

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#34 SpinoRaptor
Member since 2006 • 2419 Posts
[QUOTE="PS3_3DO"]

[QUOTE="dr_jashugan"]M$ doesn't care for its customers. It only wants a piece of the console market at all cost (at its customers expenses). 8)elbow2k

And Sony does care? :? :| :D :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Why don't you go back to being a lemming? Like seriously, you're a flaming PS3 hater unlike no other.

For the record, at least Sony puts out a competant product that doesn't brake down you try to play video games on it...

You think it's easy to pull hardware from the market? Do you think MS just sit there and ignore these problems?

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nethernova

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#35 nethernova
Member since 2008 • 5721 Posts

Obviously most of those people claiming they had 5 broken 360's (a large percentage of cows on system wars in 2006) were lieing. I mean 10% * 10% *10% * 10% *10% = 0.00001% chance of that happening

TOAO_Cyrus1

You don't calculate like that. The chance of your 5th 360 breaking would still be 10%.

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fistoflight

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#36 fistoflight
Member since 2005 • 7943 Posts
I hope microsft learns from this hardware mistake, I hope sony learns about price and gaming first, and i seriously seriously hope wii learns NOT TO MAKE SO MUCH SHOVEL WARE AND FORGET THE HARDCORES for their new market. Families that like to excercise and play kiddy games with each other.
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Pariah_001

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#37 Pariah_001
Member since 2003 • 4850 Posts

And you also fail because the PS2 had plenty of DRE errors. Nice try buddyJackman1

How exactly are you trying to define "plenty?"

It's sounds like you're being intentionally vague.

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WilliamRLBaker

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#38 WilliamRLBaker
Member since 2006 • 28915 Posts
[QUOTE="WilliamRLBaker"][QUOTE="elbow2k"]

Why don't you go back to being a lemming? Like seriously, you're a flaming PS3 hater unlike no other.

For the record, at least Sony puts out a competant product that doesn't brake down you try to play video games on it...

elbow2k

Yes sony puts out the most amazing technology that never breaks infact they have found sony tech still working in the tombs of egypt!
The Ps2 DRE was bigger then the 360 rrod thats a fact it was never fixed the DRE was still happening to ps2 slim lines today.

I'm sorry, what exactly are you getting at?

Furthermore, I don't see Sony losing 1 billion dollars because a malfunctioning video game product.

Another fanboy?

I love how you just cut out all the links i gave, but if you cant figure out what im trying to say when it was obvious then no one can explain it to you any simpler.

Surfice to say you said sony produces quality products and you were proven wrong, you asaid sony puts out a product that doesn't break down when you play a game, well last i checked with the google fight i used it showed that DRE terms disc read error is actually more talked about online then RROD, and ps2 dre is talked about more then RROD.

Furthermore if you knew any thing SONY REFUSED to recognize or fix DRE they infact were taken to court and lost and that was the only time they fixed the DRE problem for free, and if you weren't part of the complaint you didn't get it fixed for free they charged people millions upon millions to fix the problem before it and still after, the DRE existed even in the slimline models though in a less severe way simple FACT dre was bigger and more prevailent then rrod.

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imprezawrx500

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#39 imprezawrx500
Member since 2004 • 19187 Posts
[QUOTE="elbow2k"][QUOTE="PS3_3DO"]

[QUOTE="dr_jashugan"]M$ doesn't care for its customers. It only wants a piece of the console market at all cost (at its customers expenses). 8)WilliamRLBaker

And Sony does care? :? :| :D :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Why don't you go back to being a lemming? Like seriously, you're a flaming PS3 hater unlike no other.

For the record, at least Sony puts out a competant product that doesn't brake down you try to play video games on it...

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml07/07011.html sony battery recall

http://www.tuaw.com/2006/11/26/sony-recalls-eight-cyber-shot-models/ sony cyber shot recall

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-sony-vaio-recall-080904-ht,0,6001851.story sony vaio recall

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=DRE&word2=RROD DRE vs RROD DRE gets more

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=PS2+DRE&word2=360+RROD PS2 DRE vs RROD PS2 DRE gets more

Yes sony puts out the most amazing technology that never breaks infact they have found sony tech still working in the tombs of egypt!
The Ps2 DRE was bigger then the 360 rrod thats a fact it was never fixed the DRE was still happening to ps2 slim lines today.

yes we know some sony products break but overheading is much worse than a dead laser and its kinda ironic that many 360s are made by asus which has some of the most reliable pc mobs and graphic cards

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hakanakumono

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#40 hakanakumono
Member since 2008 • 27455 Posts

I believe DRE was due to how the PS2 was originally designed. It just sucked dust. But it didn't continue into the slimline models, or at least I don't think it did. If it did, you probably lived in a dirt pit.

As for RROD, wow the 360's original design was absolutely ridiculous if this is true. Microsoft should have taken more time to fine tune their system, but they wanted to be the first one out with next gen so ...

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bloodlust_101

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#41 bloodlust_101
Member since 2003 • 2764 Posts

[QUOTE="Jackman1"]And you also fail because the PS2 had plenty of DRE errors. Nice try buddyPariah_001

How exactly are you trying to define "plenty?"

It's sounds like you're being intentionally vague.

I had 3 ps2s over the course of 6 years, thats not good, not good at all, but better than my friend who had 3 360s within 1.5 years. He doesnt play too much anymore though.