Xbox 360 --- The 'Hardcore' Identity Crisis

Video game journalists have a nasty habit of labeling consoles. I just finished watching Gametrailers' "Bonus Round" (E3 Special click here) and the discussion pigeon holed the 360 into the hardcore corner. I have nothing against that, but it was the way they referred to that word; like as if games that cater to the 'hardcore' are not the best. Then, I decided to look at it from the perspective of best-selling-[quality]software-lacking Wii. It became quickly apparent to me -- the only reason the Wii is doing so well (a stark contrast from its last generation) is because it manages to appeal to casual and non-gamers alike. However, why is this something to celebrate? Strive to achieve? Worth mention?

Video game journalists have a nasty habit of labeling consoles. I just finished watching Gametrailers' "Bonus Round" (E3 Special click here) and the discussion pigeon holed the 360 into the hardcore corner. I have nothing against that, but it was the way they referred to that word; like as if games that cater to the 'hardcore' are not the best. Then, I decided to look at it from the perspective of best-selling-[quality]software-lacking Wii. It became quickly apparent to me -- the only reason the Wii is doing so well (a stark contrast from its last generation) is because it manages to appeal to casual and non-gamers alike. However, why is this something to celebrate? Strive to achieve? Worth to mention?

liquidShake

Nintendo sux, all they do now a days is make cheap systems that kids and non gamers will buy by the masses. They have lost me as a fan.

Because in the real world sales are greater than the quality of service. See wall-mart for more info.XanaduTheBand

I guess that I completely forgot to mention that. However, we're here on Gamespot forums. We're speaking from the viewpoint of the gamer. I don't see how Nintendo fanboys can brag when their system is lacking great titles. Twilight Princess I already bought for my Gamecube. The 'Wii Waggle' effect, I feel, is beginning to wear thin.

Wii appeals to casuals and non-gamers? Thanks for the insight. :|

I love how people assume the Wii can't appeal to hardcores.

Video game journalists have a nasty habit of labeling consoles. I just finished watching Gametrailers' "Bonus Round" (E3 Special click here) and the discussion pigeon holed the 360 into the hardcore corner. I have nothing against that, but it was the way they referred to that word; like as if games that cater to the 'hardcore' are not the best. Then, I decided to look at it from the perspective of best-selling-[quality]software-lacking Wii. It became quickly apparent to me -- the only reason the Wii is doing so well (a stark contrast from its last generation) is because it manages to appeal to casual and non-gamers alike. However, why is this something to celebrate? Strive to achieve? Worth to mention?

liquidShake

Off Topic, but ur sig is mad Funny :lol:

Wii appeals to casuals and non-gamers? Thanks for the insight. :|

I love how people assume the Wii can't appeal to hardcores.

IAmRodyle

Yes, it can. Yet the apparent scope of its hardcore audience spans as far out Nintendo fanboys. That's all. What is the one great title on the Wii? Right now?

:lol: at the sigwklzip

[QUOTE="IAmRodyle"]

Wii appeals to casuals and non-gamers? Thanks for the insight. :|

I love how people assume the Wii can't appeal to hardcores.

liquidShake

Yes, it can. Yet the apparent scope of its hardcore audience spans as far out Nintendo fanboys. That's all. What is the one great title on the Wii? Right now?

The most recent? Super Paper Mario.

As far as I am personally concerned, the 360 is not really "hardcore-oriented", only the PC is.Core0

[QUOTE="liquidShake"][QUOTE="IAmRodyle"]

Wii appeals to casuals and non-gamers? Thanks for the insight. :|

I love how people assume the Wii can't appeal to hardcores.

IAmRodyle

Yes, it can. Yet the apparent scope of its hardcore audience spans as far out Nintendo fanboys. That's all. What is the one great title on the Wii? Right now?

The most recent? Super Paper Mario.

...? I guess.

As far as them "celebrating" the Wii's success towards casuals, it's because it's bringing more people into the industry. So in the same way that the 360 needs to come through for the casuals, it's now Nintendo's job to come through for the hardcore in the near future. I don't think that the increase in casuals coming into the industry though will all of a sudden decrease the amount of hardcore games, but simply increase the amount of casual games.

Yeah, I watched that yesterday. I somewhat agree with them, but many of the notable 3rd party and casual games have yet to come out for the 360, so let's wait and see what MS is able to bring to the table.

As far as them "celebrating" the Wii's success towards casuals, it's because it's bringing more people into the industry. So in the same way that the 360 needs to come through for the casuals, it's now Nintendo's job to come through for the hardcore in the near future. I don't think that the increase in casuals coming into the industry though will all of a sudden decrease the amount of hardcore games, but simply increase the amount of casual games.

Blue-Sphere

Superb post. :)

As far as I am personally concerned, the 360 is not really "hardcore-oriented", only the PC is.Core0

Because in the real world sales are greater than the quality of service. See wall-mart for more info.XanaduTheBand

I know it's sick. The Wii is already at 8.5 million and the 360 at 11.1 million.The console that's in last the PS3 actually has the best hardware, free good online and the best game lineup this year.

[QUOTE="XanaduTheBand"]Because in the real world sales are greater than the quality of service. See wall-mart for more info.casey7672

I know it's sick. The Wii is already at 8.5 million and the 360 at 11.1 million.The console that's in last the PS3 actually has the best hardware, free good online and the best game lineup this year.

So what do you think is turning people away? Let's think for a second....

[QUOTE="XanaduTheBand"]Because in the real world sales are greater than the quality of service. See wall-mart for more info.casey7672

I know it's sick. The Wii is already at 8.5 million and the 360 at 11.1 million.The console that's in last the PS3 actually has the best hardware, free good online and the best game lineup this year.

...

I see plenty of games I would consider hardcore coming or on their system for a first year.

RE4, TP, SPM, SMG, SSB, Battalion Wars(Maybe), Fire Emblem, MP3.

I see plenty of games I would consider hardcore coming or on their system for a first year.

RE4 (awesome two years ago, on two last gen consoles), TP (had fun playing it on my GC), SPM (AA), SMG (not out), SSB (not out), Battalion Wars(Maybe)(you're right), Fire Emblem (no), MP3 (not out).

zombiepigeon

(See post)

[QUOTE="zombiepigeon"]

I see plenty of games I would consider hardcore coming or on their system for a first year.

RE4 (awesome two years ago, on two last gen consoles), TP (had fun playing it on my GC), SPM (AA), SMG (not out), SSB (not out), Battalion Wars(Maybe)(you're right), Fire Emblem (no), MP3 (not out).

liquidShake

(See post)

See post: The year does not end until November for the Wii, thus making your Not Out comeback meaningless. I never said anything about those games being out, and most are rumored for a holiday release around November.

Because in the real world sales are greater than the quality of service. See wall-mart for more info.XanaduTheBand

But in the long run which is better for the consumer? which is what we are arent we? the consumer?

[QUOTE="liquidShake"][QUOTE="zombiepigeon"]

I see plenty of games I would consider hardcore coming or on their system for a first year.

RE4 (awesome two years ago, on two last gen consoles), TP (had fun playing it on my GC), SPM (AA), SMG (not out), SSB (not out), Battalion Wars(Maybe)(you're right), Fire Emblem (no), MP3 (not out).

zombiepigeon

(See post)

See post: The year does not end until November for the Wii, thus making your Not Out comeback meaningless. I never said anything about those games being out, and most are rumored for a holiday release around November.

... I know, but they're still not out. I know that those titles come out this year, however, my inserted comments had to do with the reception of each game. Then again, if five out of your eight listed games are not even out and you're pushing them as quality hardcore titles, my apparent 'comebacks' are the least of your concerns.

Because in the real world sales are greater than the quality of service. See wall-mart for more info.XanaduTheBand

What defines great? I'm sure Honda makes more money than Maserati, but which would you rather drive?

As far as I am personally concerned, the 360 is not really "hardcore-oriented", only the PC is.Core0

The PC? Home of The Sims, World of Warcraft, Lemmings, Solitaire, Minesweeper? The PC is more casual-friendly than just about anything. Even suburban soccer moms know how to use a mouse.

[QUOTE="XanaduTheBand"]Because in the real world sales are greater than the quality of service. See wall-mart for more info.XL83

What defines great? I'm sure Honda makes more money than Maserati, but which would you rather drive?

As far as I am personally concerned, the 360 is not really "hardcore-oriented", only the PC is.Core0

The PC? Home of The Sims, World of Warcraft, Lemmings, Solitaire, Minesweeper? The PC is more casual-friendly than just about anything. Even suburban soccer moms know how to use a mouse.

This only further proves my thoughts on PCs. They should not be considered a part of the console wars. Theoretically, it is the best selling system, has the widest variety of games (spanning over two decades), and the best visuals (even if a new graphics card comes out every half year costing about as much as a console alone). Catch my drift?

[QUOTE="XL83"]

[QUOTE="XanaduTheBand"]Because in the real world sales are greater than the quality of service. See wall-mart for more info.liquidShake

What defines great? I'm sure Honda makes more money than Maserati, but which would you rather drive?

As far as I am personally concerned, the 360 is not really "hardcore-oriented", only the PC is.Core0

The PC? Home of The Sims, World of Warcraft, Lemmings, Solitaire, Minesweeper? The PC is more casual-friendly than just about anything. Even suburban soccer moms know how to use a mouse.

This only further proves my thoughts on PCs. They should not be considered a part of the console wars. Theoretically, it is the best selling system, has the widest variety of games (spanning over two decades), and the best visuals (even if a new graphics card comes out every half year costing about as much as a console alone). Catch my drift?

I don't consider them part of the console wars. I don't understand why hermits even post here, since most console owners also game to some extent on their PCs. I don't know why you quoted me, since I agree with what you're saying. I disagreed with the guy that said PC's are the only "hardcore" system, which is why I quoted him.

[QUOTE="Blue-Sphere"]Yeah, I watched that yesterday. I somewhat agree with them, but many of the notable 3rd party and casual games have yet to come out for the 360, so let's wait and see what MS is able to bring to the table.

As far as them "celebrating" the Wii's success towards casuals, it's because it's bringing more people into the industry. So in the same way that the 360 needs to come through for the casuals, it's now Nintendo's job to come through for the hardcore in the near future. I don't think that the increase in casuals coming into the industry though will all of a sudden decrease the amount of hardcore games, but simply increase the amount of casual games.

liquidShake

Superb post. :)

I disagree with your statement. the problem with the game industry is that it operates on limited resources. Limited time, limited amounts of quality personnel, limited amounts of money. Game companies can make all sorts of games, but they focus on the games that make them the most money, such as shooters, rpgs, safe series, etc. There can be great games, such as Okami, which simply did not sell well enough because they did not appeal to enough people. The Wii is selling very well, and developers can see that they can make games with a casual focus more easily and appeal to a broader audience. As such, they focus more resources on casual games.

There seems little question that the Wii is causing a shift of game industry focus towards casual games. EA has a new casual game division, Ubisoft has stated that they are going to increase their casual focus, even Microsoft has said that they are trying to create games for the future that will appeal more to casuals. These companies are taking resources away from hardcore game manufacture and putting it towards casual game manufacture. This decreases the number of hardcore games and their quality (though of course the genre won't disappear).

Another assumption people make is that the new games are bringing casuals into the game industry, and that this will somehow benefit current gamers. I don't see how this will. Mom and dad won't start playing Halo just because they liked Wii sports. More many gamers, this is a trend which ends at casual games.

So companies put their money where their fanbase is, which is casuals. The hardcore scene gets neglected, and we, as avid gamers, suffer because of it.

Video game journalists have a nasty habit of labeling consoles. I just finished watching Gametrailers' "Bonus Round" (E3 Special ) and the discussion pigeon holed the 360 into the hardcore corner. I have nothing against that, but it was the way they referred to that word; like as if games that cater to the 'hardcore' are not the best. Then, I decided to look at it from the perspective of best-selling-[quality]software-lacking Wii. It became quickly apparent to me -- the only reason the Wii is doing so well (a stark contrast from its last generation) is because it manages to appeal to casual and non-gamers alike. However, why is this something to celebrate? Strive to achieve? Worth to mention?

liquidShake

[QUOTE="liquidShake"][QUOTE="Blue-Sphere"]Yeah, I watched that yesterday. I somewhat agree with them, but many of the notable 3rd party and casual games have yet to come out for the 360, so let's wait and see what MS is able to bring to the table.

As far as them "celebrating" the Wii's success towards casuals, it's because it's bringing more people into the industry. So in the same way that the 360 needs to come through for the casuals, it's now Nintendo's job to come through for the hardcore in the near future. I don't think that the increase in casuals coming into the industry though will all of a sudden decrease the amount of hardcore games, but simply increase the amount of casual games.

osirisomeomi

Superb post. :)

I disagree with your statement. the problem with the game industry is that it operates on limited resources. Limited time, limited amounts of quality personnel, limited amounts of money. Game companies can make all sorts of games, but they focus on the games that make them the most money, such as shooters, rpgs, safe series, etc. There can be great games, such as Okami, which simply did not sell well enough because they did not appeal to enough people. The Wii is selling very well, and developers can see that they can make games with a casual focus more easily and appeal to a broader audience. As such, they focus more resources on casual games.

There seems little question that the Wii is causing a shift of game industry focus towards casual games. EA has a new casual game division, Ubisoft has stated that they are going to increase their casual focus, even Microsoft has said that they are trying to create games for the future that will appeal more to casuals. These companies are taking resources away from hardcore game manufacture and putting it towards casual game manufacture. This decreases the number of hardcore games and their quality (though of course the genre won't disappear).

Another assumption people make is that the new games are bringing casuals into the game industry, and that this will somehow benefit current gamers. I don't see how this will. Mom and dad won't start playing Halo just because they liked Wii sports. More many gamers, this is a trend which ends at casual games.

So companies put their money where their fanbase is, which is casuals. The hardcore scene gets neglected, and we, as avid gamers, suffer because of it.

This has to be one of the most well thought-out posts I've ever found in System Wars. It brings a tear to my eye. A breath of fresh air in an unsanitary insane asylum, if you will.

[QUOTE="liquidShake"]

Video game journalists have a nasty habit of labeling consoles. I just finished watching Gametrailers' "Bonus Round" (E3 Special ) and the discussion pigeon holed the 360 into the hardcore corner. I have nothing against that, but it was the way they referred to that word; like as if games that cater to the 'hardcore' are not the best. Then, I decided to look at it from the perspective of best-selling-[quality]software-lacking Wii. It became quickly apparent to me -- the only reason the Wii is doing so well (a stark contrast from its last generation) is because it manages to appeal to casual and non-gamers alike. However, why is this something to celebrate? Strive to achieve? Worth to mention?

TNT_Slug

Listen, pitting a word by word description of a hardcore game is near impossible. However, people in System Wars (including myself and you) use the term loosely, because as gamers deep down we all know those games -- those games that require more than one run through, those games that make you memorize boss patterns, those games (before X360's Achievements) that unlocked the completionist in all of us. You know them, as do I -- those 'old school' games.

Now take my loose description and try to apply it to the majority recent titles. They're short, try to haul more polygons than challenge, and now simplified by the mini-game esque Wii. As a gamer you very well know what I'm talking about.

[QUOTE="liquidShake"][QUOTE="XL83"]

[QUOTE="XanaduTheBand"]Because in the real world sales are greater than the quality of service. See wall-mart for more info.XL83

What defines great? I'm sure Honda makes more money than Maserati, but which would you rather drive?

As far as I am personally concerned, the 360 is not really "hardcore-oriented", only the PC is.Core0

The PC? Home of The Sims, World of Warcraft, Lemmings, Solitaire, Minesweeper? The PC is more casual-friendly than just about anything. Even suburban soccer moms know how to use a mouse.

This only further proves my thoughts on PCs. They should not be considered a part of the console wars. Theoretically, it is the best selling system, has the widest variety of games (spanning over two decades), and the best visuals (even if a new graphics card comes out every half year costing about as much as a console alone). Catch my drift?

I don't consider them part of the console wars. I don't understand why hermits even post here, since most console owners also game to some extent on their PCs. I don't know why you quoted me, since I agree with what you're saying. I disagreed with the guy that said PC's are the only "hardcore" system, which is why I quoted him.

I concur.

[QUOTE="XanaduTheBand"]Because in the real world sales are greater than the quality of service. See wall-mart for more info.casey7672

I know it's sick. The Wii is already at 8.5 million and the 360 at 11.1 million.The console that's in last the PS3 actually has the best hardware, free good online and the best game lineup this year.

[QUOTE="TNT_Slug"][QUOTE="liquidShake"]

Video game journalists have a nasty habit of labeling consoles. I just finished watching Gametrailers' "Bonus Round" (E3 Special ) and the discussion pigeon holed the 360 into the hardcore corner. I have nothing against that, but it was the way they referred to that word; like as if games that cater to the 'hardcore' are not the best. Then, I decided to look at it from the perspective of best-selling-[quality]software-lacking Wii. It became quickly apparent to me -- the only reason the Wii is doing so well (a stark contrast from its last generation) is because it manages to appeal to casual and non-gamers alike. However, why is this something to celebrate? Strive to achieve? Worth to mention?

liquidShake

Listen, pitting a word by word description of a hardcore game is near impossible. However, people in System Wars (including myself and you) use the term loosely, because as gamers deep down we all know those games -- those games that require more than one run through, those games that make you memorize boss patterns, those games (before X360's Achievements) that unlocked the completionist in all of us. You know them, as do I -- those 'old school' games.

Now take my loose description and try to apply it to the majority recent titles. They're short, try to haul more polygons than challenge, and now simplified by the mini-game esque Wii. As a gamer you very well know what I'm talking about.

[QUOTE="liquidShake"][QUOTE="Blue-Sphere"]Yeah, I watched that yesterday. I somewhat agree with them, but many of the notable 3rd party and casual games have yet to come out for the 360, so let's wait and see what MS is able to bring to the table.

As far as them "celebrating" the Wii's success towards casuals, it's because it's bringing more people into the industry. So in the same way that the 360 needs to come through for the casuals, it's now Nintendo's job to come through for the hardcore in the near future. I don't think that the increase in casuals coming into the industry though will all of a sudden decrease the amount of hardcore games, but simply increase the amount of casual games.

osirisomeomi

Superb post. :)

I disagree with your statement. the problem with the game industry is that it operates on limited resources. Limited time, limited amounts of quality personnel, limited amounts of money. Game companies can make all sorts of games, but they focus on the games that make them the most money, such as shooters, rpgs, safe series, etc. There can be great games, such as Okami, which simply did not sell well enough because they did not appeal to enough people. The Wii is selling very well, and developers can see that they can make games with a casual focus more easily and appeal to a broader audience. As such, they focus more resources on casual games.

There seems little question that the Wii is causing a shift of game industry focus towards casual games. EA has a new casual game division, Ubisoft has stated that they are going to increase their casual focus, even Microsoft has said that they are trying to create games for the future that will appeal more to casuals. These companies are taking resources away from hardcore game manufacture and putting it towards casual game manufacture. This decreases the number of hardcore games and their quality (though of course the genre won't disappear).

Another assumption people make is that the new games are bringing casuals into the game industry, and that this will somehow benefit current gamers. I don't see how this will. Mom and dad won't start playing Halo just because they liked Wii sports. More many gamers, this is a trend which ends at casual games.

So companies put their money where their fanbase is, which is casuals. The hardcore scene gets neglected, and we, as avid gamers, suffer because of it.

I understand your point, but here's the thing... The shift may be moving towards games catered to casuals, but for devs and the industry, don't you think they'd start getting in dangerous territory? The casuals can be entertained for a while, but if the "casual" type of games for the most part doesn't deliver, the casuals can get away from them. When hardcore gamers end up underwhelmed with some of the hardcore games, they get discouraged, but more than likely won't get away from gaming. Devs start making "casual" games, casual gamers are underwhelmed, lack of hardcore type of games, then what? Gaming, at least at that point in time, becomes horrible and may fall into obscurity to a certain degree.

That's why I don't think the shift to casual-type games won't be THAT significant.

[QUOTE="liquidShake"][QUOTE="TNT_Slug"][QUOTE="liquidShake"]

Video game journalists have a nasty habit of labeling consoles. I just finished watching Gametrailers' "Bonus Round" (E3 Special ) and the discussion pigeon holed the 360 into the hardcore corner. I have nothing against that, but it was the way they referred to that word; like as if games that cater to the 'hardcore' are not the best. Then, I decided to look at it from the perspective of best-selling-[quality]software-lacking Wii. It became quickly apparent to me -- the only reason the Wii is doing so well (a stark contrast from its last generation) is because it manages to appeal to casual and non-gamers alike. However, why is this something to celebrate? Strive to achieve? Worth to mention?

jg4xchamp

Listen, pitting a word by word description of a hardcore game is near impossible. However, people in System Wars (including myself and you) use the term loosely, because as gamers deep down we all know those games -- those games that require more than one run through, those games that make you memorize boss patterns, those games (before X360's Achievements) that unlocked the completionist in all of us. You know them, as do I -- those 'old school' games.

Now take my loose description and try to apply it to the majority recent titles. They're short, try to haul more polygons than challenge, and now simplified by the mini-game esque Wii. As a gamer you very well know what I'm talking about.

I feel the Wii is inadvertently killing the 'hardcore' sub-genre. You see, in that sea of titles you produced there are only two I could relate to. Metroid and Soul Caliber (if its already semi-button-mashy gameplay isn't further hampered by Wii waggle). Twilight Princess I've already played on my GC. Nights? Sadness? Smash Bros.? Tell me you're not really pushing these as quality AAA titles.

The best games are the ones that manage to cater to the contemporary next-generation (the graphics department) audience, while maintaining the essence of old-school difficulty and challenge. I'm talking about the Ninja Gaidens and Ikarugas here.

Didn't Spiderman 3 end up on the NPD top 10 for two months in a row on the 360?DaysAirlines

Terrifyingly so.

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"][QUOTE="liquidShake"][QUOTE="TNT_Slug"][QUOTE="liquidShake"]

Video game journalists have a nasty habit of labeling consoles. I just finished watching Gametrailers' "Bonus Round" (E3 Special ) and the discussion pigeon holed the 360 into the hardcore corner. I have nothing against that, but it was the way they referred to that word; like as if games that cater to the 'hardcore' are not the best. Then, I decided to look at it from the perspective of best-selling-[quality]software-lacking Wii. It became quickly apparent to me -- the only reason the Wii is doing so well (a stark contrast from its last generation) is because it manages to appeal to casual and non-gamers alike. However, why is this something to celebrate? Strive to achieve? Worth to mention?

liquidShake

Listen, pitting a word by word description of a hardcore game is near impossible. However, people in System Wars (including myself and you) use the term loosely, because as gamers deep down we all know those games -- those games that require more than one run through, those games that make you memorize boss patterns, those games (before X360's Achievements) that unlocked the completionist in all of us. You know them, as do I -- those 'old school' games.

Now take my loose description and try to apply it to the majority recent titles. They're short, try to haul more polygons than challenge, and now simplified by the mini-game esque Wii. As a gamer you very well know what I'm talking about.

I feel the Wii is inadvertently killing the 'hardcore' sub-genre. You see, in that sea of titles you produced there are only two I could relate to. Metroid and Soul Caliber (if its already semi-button-mashy gameplay isn't further hampered by Wii waggle). Twilight Princess I've already played on my GC. Nights? Sadness? Smash Bros.? Tell me you're not really pushing these as quality AAA titles.

The best games are the ones that manage to cater to the contemporary next-generation (the graphics department) audience, while maintaining the essence of old-school difficulty and challenge. I'm talking about the Ninja Gaidens and Ikarugas here.

smash bros is one of the best franchises out there. I'd buy a Wii for that alone.

smash bros is one of the best franchises out there. I'd buy a Wii for that alone.

Harrick

I own both previous versions of the smash games. Both are heavy on multiplayer fun, but lack the depth and variety of other AAA fighters. That's why the Smash Bros series hasn't recieved a AAA yet.