WWEv's Greatest Wrestler of All-Time Discussion Thread

Well, WWEv's Greatest Wrestler of All-Time Tournament is underway and is progressing rapidly. So rapidly, in fact, that I figured that this thread might be helpful and could generate some interesting discussions as the tournament progresses. With the way the tournament is formatted, its moving along very rapidly and I think some of the potential discussions are getting lost in the shuffle.

So, this thread is here to discuss the tournament. The specific match-ups you like, Wrestlers that should or should not have been in our list, whether you agree with how the voting turned out for a specific round and even make the case for a wrestler to try and sway the vote.

Here are the results of the Tournament thus far:

Modern Bracket:
Chris Jericho defeated Chris Benoit
Kurt Angle defeated Triple H
Edge defeated The Undertaker
Rob Van Dam defeated Sabu
Stone Cold Steve Austin defeated Eddie Guerrero
Shawn Michaels defeats Mick Foley
Bret Hart defeats Bill Goldberg
The Rock dominates John Cena

Old-Scool Bracket:
Hulk Hogan defeated Dusty Rhodes
Ted Dibiase defeated Randy Savage
Mr. Perfect defeated Jake The Snake
Ric Flair defeated Roddy Piper
Bruno Sammartino defeats Sting
Ricky Steamboat defeats Andre The Giant
Terry Funk defeats Mr. Wonderful Paul Orndorff
Jyushin Lyger defeats Stan Hansen

Next Match: Quarter Finals: Chris Jericho vs Kurt Angle

How Y2J will get to the semi final i will never know.. But there should have been more guys like Hayabusa, Muta, Kobashi and Misawa put in there by default :P.

Going good so far lol...

Here are a few of my thoughts on the tournament thus far:

The only real disagreement I've had thus far is Dibiase over Savage.  I think this comes largely as a result of the WWE's campaign to systematically eliminate Savage's importance to wrestling.  I also think we've come to romanticize Ted's career a little, too.  I definately think Savage should have, at least, been closer.

I was surprised to see Edge completely blow through Undertaker.  Edge and RVD are the two guys who I think the strongest case can be made don't belong in this tournament.  I don't want him to blow through RVD the same way, but that's what I'm anticipating.  He's so hot right now.

Angle going over Triple H was something of a surprise.  Maybe its me, but Angle has dropped a few notches in my book since moving to TNA.  I think TNA is exposing some of the flaws in Angle's game that WWE has been able to hide (its like TNA's gift).  Krazy Kurt's elevator doesn't seem to be too operational these days either.

One match-up that really interests me is the probable second round match of Bret vs Rock.  It'll probably be the biggest clash of wrestling vs sports entertainment that'll be on display in this thing.  It'll be really intriguing to see how that one plays out.

I'm curious as to whether Rock and Bret can post shut-outs on their first round opponents.

Angle going over Triple H was something of a surprise.  Maybe its me, but Angle has dropped a few notches in my book since moving to TNA.  I think TNA is exposing some of the flaws in Angle's game that WWE has been able to hide (its like TNA's gift).  Krazy Kurt's elevator doesn't seem to be too operational these days either.The_Dude14

yeah, thats the main reason i didnt vote fo Angle

and im liking the tournament so far, everyone in the second round, deserves to be in the second round

How Y2J will get to the semi final i will never know.. But there should have been more guys like Hayabusa, Muta, Kobashi and Misawa put in there by default :P.

Going good so far lol...

Total-KO

First off, I'd like to say you all suck who voted for Jericho. :P

But really, this is one of the best things out of this place in the past year. That and [EXPLETIVE]'s Wrestling Confessions thread. That was awesome.

Darren

WWEMAN101

THIS word is prohibited from being used. if anyone uses it again, i will squint my face like i ate a sour sucker and start a hissy fit.

The only real disagreement I've had thus far is Dibiase over Savage.  I think this comes largely as a result of the WWE's campaign to systematically eliminate Savage's importance to wrestling.  I also think we've come to romanticize Ted's career a little, too.  I definately think Savage should have, at least, been closer.

The_Dude14

I agree. If nothing else, Randy "Macho Man" Savage is considered to be part of some of the greatest matches, WrestleMania matches, of all-time (4 of them, to be exact), where as Ted Dibiase, as great as he was, regardless of any reasoning or exuse, did not have any, that I can think of, "great" matches in his WWE career.

Angle going over Triple H was something of a surprise.  Maybe its me, but Angle has dropped a few notches in my book since moving to TNA.  I think TNA is exposing some of the flaws in Angle's game that WWE has been able to hide (its like TNA's gift).  Krazy Kurt's elevator doesn't seem to be too operational these days either.

The_Dude14

While I was disappointed, I was not suprised - not really. In the collective mind of the IWC, Kurt Angle, for years, has been one of their "Gods," where as Triple H, for years, was the guy who only stayed on top due to the fact he was married to the daughter of Vince McMahon (i.e. the owner, the boss).

As far as Kurt Angle's preformance in TNA, again, I agree completely and I am reliefed to see I am not only one who feels that. To be simple, for my liking, appears as if TNA is missing "magic" factor that WWE has (you know, ability, to make things feel "speical" or "bigger than life").

In regards to Triple H, to be simple, whether or not people enjoy it, the guy has always been the bigger draw of the two, along with having, in my mind, more charsmia.

Plus, with that being said, while we are on the subject of WWE vs. TNA in-ring differences, I think it could be contributed to one of the main reasons why Jeff Hardy is probably about 4 or 5 times more entertaining in WWE, comparison to his tenture in TNA.

[QUOTE="WWEMAN101"]

Darren

sephy37

THIS word is prohibited from being used. if anyone uses it again, i will squint my face like i ate a sour sucker and start a hissy fit.

 I edited my post accordingly. I apologize for such a horendous action.

Plus, with that being said, while we are on the subject of WWE vs. TNA in-ring differences, I think it could be contributed to one of the main reasons why Jeff Hardy is probably about 4 or 5 times more entertaining in WWE, comparison to his tenture in TNA.

Link256

plus Jeff Hardy let it be known that he only did it for the paycheck and he had "lost his passion" for wrestling.

i vote for the awesomeness of WM 3's ONLY good match and the awesomeness of 1989 NWA.

sephy37

While I will be first person to admit that Hogan-Andre clearly was lacking in technical workrate, in my humble opinion, it more than made-up for things by having great build heading into the match, awesome atmosphere (audience), historical significance and pure emotion of the night.

[QUOTE="sephy37"]

i vote for the awesomeness of WM 3's ONLY good match and the awesomeness of 1989 NWA.

Link256

While I will be first person to admit that Hogan-Andre clearly was lacking in technical workrate, in my humble opinion, it more than made-up for things by having great build heading into the match, awesome atmosphere (audience), historical significance and pure emotion of the night.

still, everyone was praising Steamboat/Savage for having one of the best matches ever. Hogan slamming Andre was cool back in the day, but even then,it was hard not to recognize the IC match to be the REAL showstopper.

oh and 1989 NWA trumps anything, 3 straight 5 star matches with Flair (the final of the 3 being the best match in WCW history), an instand classic with Funk AND actually having a 4 star match with Lex Luger.....we might as well give Steamboat a bye into the finals against Flair (who i hope beats Hogan)

[QUOTE="Link256"][QUOTE="sephy37"]

i vote for the awesomeness of WM 3's ONLY good match and the awesomeness of 1989 NWA.

sephy37

While I will be first person to admit that Hogan-Andre clearly was lacking in technical workrate, in my humble opinion, it more than made-up for things by having great build heading into the match, awesome atmosphere (audience), historical significance and pure emotion of the night.

still, everyone was praising Steamboat/Savage for having one of the best matches ever. Hogan slamming Andre was cool back in the day, but even then,it was hard not to recognize the IC match to be the REAL showstopper.

Even though I am not the biggest fan of Steamboat-Savage, I respect the fact many people are, many people seeing as being match of the night, and in general, what it did for the "business" of wrestling.

Anyhow, with that being said, while I respect Steamboat-Savage, I think it is kind insulting to refer as being, and I quote,"WM 3's ONLY good match," refering to your point that Hogan-Andre was not. Whether or not it was "match of the night," in my mind, Hogan-Andre was "great" match in similar notion that Rock-Hogan was 15 years later, even though neither are probably not examples of "technical" showcase.  

By the way, while Hogan slamming Andre was the biggest moment of the match, the "symbol" of the match, in my mind, it was not the only one. How about the stare down between Hogan and Andre when Gorilla Monsoon says his infamous quote of "unstoppable force versus the unmovable object"? Or what about moment when Hogan, after being dominated for good majoirty of the match by Andre, gets the "big man" down for "first time in his career"? Both of those, in my mind, while not as imfaous as the "slam," are "WrestleMania" moments.

Plus, in general, as I hinted at before, among other factors, what helps to make the match entertaining is in similar to what helps make the matches of HHH-Cena at WM 22 and RVD-Cena at ONS II good: atsmpohere (engery, emotion, of the audience). To be simple, when you have "90,000" (or whatever the number was - whatever the case, it was huge), cheering, to say the least, for my liking, kind of difficult not to be, at the very least, little excited.

what do you guys think about making the matches longer in the next couple rounds? i was thinking 15 votes for a win in the semi finals and finals and maybe 20 for the all time finals? idk if we'd get that many votes, but what do you guys think? also any change to the number of votes for quarter finals? or stick with 10?sephy37

I think we could get 20 votes, but in a good match-up we'd have to look at getting like 35 people to vote. It wouldn't be a blowout.

I say 12 for the semi's and quarters, and 15 for the final.

what do you guys think about making the matches longer in the next couple rounds? i was thinking 15 votes for a win in the semi finals and finals and maybe 20 for the all time finals? idk if we'd get that many votes, but what do you guys think? also any change to the number of votes for quarter finals? or stick with 10?sephy37

good idea Gary. we should make the next couple longer. 

To be simple, if had not been for "Stone Cold" Steve Austin (biggest piece of trailer park trash walking God's green earth), The Rock, without question, would have been biggest star of the Attitude era.

Link256

i just want to say that in my opinion, The Rock shoukd be considered the bigger star. Austin vs. McMahon may be the most rememebered part of the Attitude Era, but if it hadn't been for The Rock as a heel, Austin wouldn't be half the star he is. same goes for HHH, Mick Foley, and The Hurricane.

[QUOTE="Link256"]

To be simple, if had not been for "Stone Cold" Steve Austin (biggest piece of trailer park trash walking God's green earth), The Rock, without question, would have been biggest star of the Attitude era.

sephy37

i just want to say that in my opinion, The Rock shoukd be considered the bigger star. Austin vs. McMahon may be the most rememebered part of the Attitude Era, but if it hadn't been for The Rock as a heel, Austin wouldn't be half the star he is. same goes for HHH, Mick Foley, and The Hurricane.

I do not see how putting people over is reason for having higher status? If that were the case, Ric Flair is bigger star than Hulk Hogan and Mic Foley, along with The Rock, is bigger star than Steve Austin.

True, Rock desvers great amount of credit for putting people over, however, in my humble opinion, that has little to nothing his career status.

Besides, while Rock deserves credit for being contributer to Austin's career, as far as that goes, I would say Austin's feuds with Bret and Vince deserve equaly amount of credit, if not more.

If anything, I think you possibly may be letting the world of post-neck surgrey Steve Austin block your judgement. Granted, I will be first to admit by that time, Rock was able to surpass Austin in popularity, however, while the height of the Austin popuarlity was in full-effect, the guy could not be touched. Meanwhile, while lot of this was happening, Rock was still very much mid-card wrestler.

By the way, what is the deal with you said in the bold? While I would say that their feud help bring both them (Austin and Rock) to level even higher than they had been before, however, Austin had already been huge star for several months before their post-IC feuds had began.

Plus, this does not mention the fact that Austin's feud with McMahon is the main reason why WWE was able to end streak of WCW dominating them in the Monday Night War for previous year and half. Again, while all of this was happening, as entertaing and fanatistic as he was, Rock was still in mid-card feuds with the likes of Ken Shamrock and Triple H.

[QUOTE="sephy37"][QUOTE="Link256"]

To be simple, if had not been for "Stone Cold" Steve Austin (biggest piece of trailer park trash walking God's green earth), The Rock, without question, would have been biggest star of the Attitude era.

Link256

i just want to say that in my opinion, The Rock shoukd be considered the bigger star. Austin vs. McMahon may be the most rememebered part of the Attitude Era, but if it hadn't been for The Rock as a heel, Austin wouldn't be half the star he is. same goes for HHH, Mick Foley, and The Hurricane.

By the way, what is the deal with you said in the bold? While I would say that their feud help bring both them (Austin and Rock) to level even higher than they had been before, however, Austin had already been huge star for several months before their post-IC feuds had began.

i meant The Rock vs. Austin feud pretty much cemented Austin after the whole Vince thing settled down. even tho Austin may have been feuding with Vince and the corporation, it was Rock vs. Austin that was drawing the people.

but i guess "half the star he is" is a little to extreme to say.

i just meant that if Austin only had the Vince feud, DX feud, or Bret feud under his belt to be remembered by, he wouldn't be as revered as he is now. and i didn't mean before that The Rock "put them over" but instead he was such a great heel that he made Mick Foley and HHH into someone that the people could rally behind and really....REALLY believe was fighting for them. take HHH vs. The Rock on Raw before WM when Chyna turned on HHH. that was such a heated match and the crowd was so behind HHH that it was insane to think he was getting a reaction that big. well granted they had a history and a f'n fantastic ladder match for the IC title and HHH was over hugely because of DX, but wow, it was off the charts. same goes for Mick Foley's first title win on Raw. it was such a special moment. i'm not saying it couldn't have been someone else winning the title that night, but it couldn't have been a different heel losing that title that night.

(it feels like i just belittled Mick Foley's popularity in that last sentence)

besides, i like saying bold and argumentative things. it's more fun than agreeing or NOT stirring something up in someone to get them to respond with 5-6 well written paragraphs of arguments and points.

[QUOTE="Link256"]

To be simple, if had not been for "Stone Cold" Steve Austin (biggest piece of trailer park trash walking God's green earth), The Rock, without question, would have been biggest star of the Attitude era.

sephy37

i just want to say that in my opinion, The Rock shoukd be considered the bigger star. Austin vs. McMahon may be the most rememebered part of the Attitude Era, but if it hadn't been for The Rock as a heel, Austin wouldn't be half the star he is. same goes for HHH, Mick Foley, and The Hurricane.

It's a two way street mate. The Rock needed an equal to raise his level to the same height that Austin was already on. Leading up to their feud for the IC title, Austin had already had a lengthy battle with the entire Hart family, and took everything that the most well rounded wrestler in the business had on the biggest stage.

If Austin could pass a physical and his neck could hold up to a full work load they would pin one of the world titles on him that night. He never needed the Rock for anything. In fact IMO it's the other way around. They're both one and two in draws how ever you want to look at it.

But I also have to blame Stone Cold for being the reason why Vince won't just give up and stay the hell off TV. It's as if Vince believes that he'll bring back that same success by being front and center.

In that case, I hear what you are saying.

Upon relection, I have to admit, it was not until Survivor Series 1998 and feud with The Rock that Mankind (Mic Foley) became one of my favorites. Before - he was another guy floating around in the mid-card, however, once The Rock turned heel, at first, I was cheering for Mankind simply because he was the guy gearing for Rock and wanted someone, anyone, to put him in his place. 

Also, with that being said, Chris Jericho awesomeness as heel is probably the main reason why I began to get behind the likes of Dean and Juvi.

And with that being said, Rock does not get enough credit for being awesome heel (call me crazy, however, I prefer him as heel over face). Most people think of him as face, however, I think it is clear that his stuff in the Nation and Coperation is the reason why he was eventually able to get over as face  (because Gods knows it most certainly was not his horrible stint as Rocky Maivia and face turn after being in the Nation while having purpose, was blink-of-eye in lasting power).

In addition, while I am on the subject of heels:

"Corprate Champion" > "The Man of 1004 Holds" > "Million Dollar Man"

In regards to Steve Austin, you have point, however, while The Rock desverse more credit in regards to helping to cement Austin outside of his stuff with McMahon, Undertaker desverses credit as well. However, thanks to the pure awesomeness of HHH-Rock ladder match, through passing of time, WWE title feud and match between Undertaker and Austin has been over-shadowed (in my mind, it was great feud and match).

Can you guys not lock the voting so fast? I just got home recently, and read the voting post and it was open. When I clicked reply, it was locked. :?mrgab

well it only goes to 10 votes to win. so if it's locked, that means someone has won already. so voting is pointless.

After this you should start a greatest tag team/faction game with the horsemen, LOD, Demolition, etc.The_Great_One2

that's a great idea. i'll have to do that soon.

[QUOTE="The_Great_One2"]After this you should start a greatest tag team/faction game with the horsemen, LOD, Demolition, etc.sephy37

that's a great idea. i'll have to do that soon.

And then maybe a worst of all time list. That'd be fun.

Semi Finals will start tomorrow around noon.

should we do 12 votes to win again?

I reckon the Undertaker is the greatest wrestler of all time, because no one can do what he did , and look at his Wrestlemania record, its 15-0!!!, thats a decade and a half of destruction, beat that!!;)

I reckon the Undertaker is the greatest wrestler of all time, because no one can do what he did , and look at his Wrestlemania record, its 15-0!!!, thats a decade and a half of destruction, beat that!!;)

Srb-Thug

[QUOTE="Srb-Thug"]

I reckon the Undertaker is the greatest wrestler of all time, because no one can do what he did , and look at his Wrestlemania record, its 15-0!!!, thats a decade and a half of destruction, beat that!!;)

Chicago_Nut

I say we do 12 again, just because I don't think we'd ever finish by doing 15.

[QUOTE="Chicago_Nut"][QUOTE="Srb-Thug"]

I reckon the Undertaker is the greatest wrestler of all time, because no one can do what he did , and look at his Wrestlemania record, its 15-0!!!, thats a decade and a half of destruction, beat that!!;)

bulletproofcow

I say we do 12 again, just because I don't think we'd ever finish by doing 15.

I say we do go for 15, but I agree, these would take a while. Maybe we should offer candy! Or Muffins. No, definatly candy. I had a bad experience with a muffin once. Or maybe donuts.

I think we should do 15 for the final.

12 is alright for now.

Wow, I can't believe I completely missed the RVD-Angle match-up.  Shoot.  At least RVD got a good showing in and going out in the modern bracket semi-finals is a pretty cool accomplishment.

Just to let the record be known, I would have voted for RVD.  I said it in the Edge round, I don't think anyone in wrestling has gotten more out less than Rob Van Dam.  For damn near two years he carried the ECW TV Title and he carried it right to the main event.  He made that title as, if not more important than the ECW Title.  He got the absolute best out of everyone he faced in ECW, from world class workers like Jerry Lynn and Lance Storm to your not so world class workers like Balls Mahoney and Tommy Dreamer.  Guys, even after losses, came out of matches with RVD more valuable than they came in. 

If Kurt Angle were healthy and still with WWE, I'd probably have voted for him pretty easily.  TNA is exposing some of the chinks in Angle's armor and Krazy Kurt isn't helping things with his incoherence in any outside interview.  His matches with Samoa Joe didn't come near what I expected out of him.  I don't think anyone can call what Kurt has done in TNA thus far anything but a disappointment.  In WWE, they knew what they were doing with Angle and kept him from looking as ridiculous as Jarrett is in TNA and its hurting his stature in my eyes.  One can only ride his matches with Chris Benoit so far.  RVD made himself a main eventer in WWE.  He certainly wasn't pegged as such when he came in.  He elevated the Hardcore Title far beyond the level the WWE ever intended for their joke belt.  He made that belt important enough that they had to bring in the Undertaker to take the belt from RVD.  Also, RVD spent most of his time being the go-to guy to turn someone heel.  Taker, Eddie Guerrero upon his return, Chris Benoit, Kane and Booker T all used RVD to elevate themselves as heels.

Just my take on it.

I don't really understand the brackets and how they are set out. People say this is the semi-finals like the Hogan and Flair thread now, so what happens after? Is the next round for them the final?

Coz if it is, how did you get 6 spaces from the final from dividing 8 by 2? Unless there's a wild card system I'm not aware about.

If this is the quarter finals however, i get it.

I don't really understand the brackets and how they are set out. People say this is the semi-finals like the Hogan and Flair thread now, so what happens after? Is the next round for them the final?

Coz if it is, how did you get 6 spaces from the final from dividing 8 by 2? Unless there's a wild card system I'm not aware about.

If this is the quarter finals however, i get it.

Total-KO

1st round > quarter finals > semi finals > bracket finals > tournament finals

it's like the NBA playoffs

Modern Bracket winner vs. CIassic Bracket winner collide in the tournament finals to see who truly is the greatest wrestler ever, young or old, modern or cIassic

[QUOTE="Total-KO"]

I don't really understand the brackets and how they are set out. People say this is the semi-finals like the Hogan and Flair thread now, so what happens after? Is the next round for them the final?

Coz if it is, how did you get 6 spaces from the final from dividing 8 by 2? Unless there's a wild card system I'm not aware about.

If this is the quarter finals however, i get it.

sephy37

1st round > quarter finals > semi finals > bracket finals > tournament finals

it's like the NBA playoffs

Modern Bracket winner vs. CIassic Bracket winner collide in the tournament finals to see who truly is the greatest wrestler ever, young or old, modern or cIassic

Oh, then that's probably why I didn't get it then. Usually, in soccer semi-finals mean the last 4 teams altogether, regardless of conferences and stuff like different leagues put aside. But I get it now. Thanks.

i'm leaving for St. Paul today at 2 p.m. and then i'll be heading to Chicago from there, so the tournament will be held off until monday. i hope you guys don't mind. there are only 3 matches leftsephy37

Hope u have fun at ROH. QUACKENBUSH!!! AKUMA!!! 

i'm leaving for St. Paul today at 2 p.m. and then i'll be heading to Chicago from there, so the tournament will be held off until monday. i hope you guys don't mind. there are only 3 matches leftsephy37

The only vested interest I have left is making sure that Ric Flair doesn't win.  Yeah, sure, he may deserve it, but I don't freakin' care.  He bored me to tears in WCW.  He's also responsible for David Flair, people, ... David Flair.

 This tournament is already "on notice" from me, anyway. 

The_Dude14

well if it makes you feel better, i'll tell you something super secret that no one else knows.

ONLY THE_DUDE CAN READ THIS!

[spoiler]

the WWEv Indy Fantasy Draft starts May 13 and the Greatest Tag Teams Of All Time tournament should get underway after this one ends.

and yes, new tag teams can be included like LAX, Londricks, and Austin Aries & Roderick Strong (sorry, but no Strong & Evans, i think it's understandable why)

[/spoiler]

Hey, the_dude told me that there was an Indy fantasy going down, as well as a Greatest Tag Team Tournament too. Why wasn't I informed?

I think a lot of you younger guys are going off of what the "WWE" likes to remember it's self as, and not actually how the WWF really was. Someone mentioned that Austin has things sown up because so many people grew up watching him. Well I grew up watching Flair, and Savage, and the fact that Steamboat made it this far considering where others went out just seems wrong.

But that's me. I understand that everyone has they're own favorites, and that's fine, but I can't help but feel like a few guys like Dibiase and Funk are only being remembered from what has been preached about them recently. And considering the source, it's not really a fair fight for the others.

Why isn't King Booker in these finals? He's a 5 time 5 time 5 time 5 time 5 time WCW champion! Peasants just can't understand this achievmnt

Why isn't King Booker in these finals? He's a 5 time 5 time 5 time 5 time 5 time WCW champion! Peasants just can't understand this achievmnt

Kotenks

It's because he's black.  

Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you...

WWEv's GREATEST WRESTLER OF ALL TIME

STEVE AUSTIN!