Is Oblivion's levelling system really that bad?

I love RPGs but I noticed from the discussion on here that a lot of people have a problem with the way you level up. I've heard that all the enemies in the game level up with you, is this true??? It seems pretty detrimental to the traditional RPG formula of getting the sense that you become more powerful the more you play. If that's really how it works, I don't see why you'd ever need to do any side quests.creeping-deth87

I see... so is it more fair to call it a really long adventure game than an RPG?creeping-deth87

I got the platinum hits version for like $30 bucks and spent over seventy hours playing it, and you can get expansion packs for added quests, or just get the GOTY version for $60 with the packs included.

When I first started playing Oblivion I really liked it. It's a huge, beautiful world and it's sorta nice being able to go wherever you want in that world, no matter your level. However I have to admit that after a while the "enemies level up as you do" system started to annoy me. I never did finish the game. Weighing all the pros and cons, I don't think it's a system that is right for me, personally.

A lot of other people like it. If you really are interested in playing the game then don't let it stop it. At the end of the day you're going to have to decide for yourself if you like it or not, and playing the game is the best way to do so. Give it a rental if you're really on the fence.

I think the leveling system in Oblivion is bad, very bad. Yes, the enemies level up with you. This is called scaling, and some RPGs use it. I hate it in Oblivion. It's so transparent, and it really takes away from the immersion in the game. (If you want to see a game where scaling is done right, play Mass Effect.) The game designers wanted you (the player) to be able to go anywhere in the huge world they created, and do anything at any level. This sounds great, but it takes away some of the fun of an RPG, and eliminates the risk/reward equation you have in other games. In a game like Diablo II, you have to decide whether the risk of going into a new area, full of more powerful enemies than the last, is worth the reward of the more valuable items they'll drop. You never have this experience in Oblivion. Any dungeon you go into will have enemies appropriate to your level, and loot appropriate to your level. You will never, through luck or skill, slay an impossibly powerful enemy, and be rewarded with an super-powerful sword. Remember the first time you went to fight Firkraag in Baldur's Gate II, and got your *** kicked, but then you went back after leveling up a bunch, killed him, and got a holy avenger? That'll never happen in Oblivion.

What's annoying is that it didn't have to be this way. Certain areas should have simply been off-limits to low-level characters, or if not literally off limits, filled with overpowering enemies. It just makes no sense fighting back demons who have overrun a town, and being a nationally-recognized hero for it...at Level 1. It makes no sense killing Mannimarco (a god-like necromancer from previous Elder Scrolls games) at Level 5. It's annoying the way all enemies level up with you. By the time you're Level 20, bandits out in the wilderness will be attacking you with weapons, that by Elder Scrolls lore, are incredibly rare and powerful. Why the designers didn't have certain enemies (like bandits and goblins) scale with you to a certain level, but then stop before they became absurdly powerful, I'll never understand.

That said, there's fun to be had in Oblivion. In all my critizing-Oblivion posts, I like to point out that I have about 500 hours in the game. There's a lot to do and see, and a lot of quests to undertake. Don't expect certain elements of the traditional CRPG experience to be there when playing Oblivion, which brings me to:

[QUOTE="creeping-deth87"]

I see... so is it more fair to call it a really long adventure game than an RPG?

Bigboi500

Pretty much an action/adventure game with rpg elements. It's still a fun game with lots to explore.

Well said. Think of Oblivion as an action/adventure, and all these complaints go away.

It's actually one of the few good things about the game. It works well and awards you for playing your class but it somewhat discourages hybrid classes because then you can't be a true mage warrior but a more mage less warrior person.Toriko42

discourages hybrids? how? last time i checked i was level 30 with every attribute 100 except personality, heavy armour 100, light armour 97, blade 100, destruction about 75, sneak 80+, blunt 50+...i am a jack of all trades

[QUOTE="Toriko42"]

It's actually one of the few good things about the game. It works well and awards you for playing your class but it somewhat discourages hybrid classes because then you can't be a true mage warrior but a more mage less warrior person.

chaoscougar1

discourages hybrids? how? last time i checked i was level 30 with every attribute 100 except personality, heavy armour 100, light armour 97, blade 100, destruction about 75, sneak 80+, blunt 50+...i am a jack of all trades

I missed this on my first read-through, and I totally agree, chaos. Oblivion's system greatly favors hybrid c|asses. Almost every default combat c|ass has the blade, blunt, and hand-to-hand skills. There is no reason at all to train in all of these. Pick one of those three, and the other two skill slots are far better served by a school of magic. Pure magic users fair better in Oblivion than pure warriors, though again, a hybrid c|ass will be much more effective.

I love RPGs but I noticed from the discussion on here that a lot of people have a problem with the way you level up. I've heard that all the enemies in the game level up with you, is this true??? It seems pretty detrimental to the traditional RPG formula of getting the sense that you become more powerful the more you play. If that's really how it works, I don't see why you'd ever need to do any side quests.creeping-deth87

Man...side quests are great!!! My save is about 300 hours because of them :P

At first I thought this would be bad so I didnt level but then i got over it went from level 7 to level 30 and I realized it wasn't that much harder. Now I wonder why everyone hates the level system.

It's not bad, it's just meaningless and serves no purpose since EVERYONE scales to your level, there is really no point in leveling, and as far as the attributes go, as long as the enemies are level 1 there's no need to even care about your offensive attribues.

The system is different then let's say Mass Effect, in which the enemies also scale to your level, but in Oblivion you must go to sleep in order to level, so essentially you can just not sleep the whole game and finish it on level 1, like I have done a few times.

The leveling system makes is less rewarding to lvl up...and unless they fixed it there are some game ending glitchis you have to watch out for. like people disipearing.... It sucks.... I think Morrowind was better. You could become basicly GodLike.

only some creatures level up with you, so if youre level 40 you can pretty much kill wolfs and imps with just one hit, you couldnt do that if you were 5, some whoever level with you like the ogre so that you always have a challenge and have someone that can match you. imo its a good system you can do many stuff in any level but always have creatures that challenge you considering your level (btw these creatures also will start to appear deppending on your level, wolfs=level 1 then boars= level 7, its just an example and keeps adding to the game new enemies as you play) it has flaws but i think its great and the fact that the equipment you get as rewards most of it is also levelled so you always get what you deserve.

i dont know whats all that talk about not feeling stronger.. im much stronger at level 40 than level 3 and try doing a rampage and anything else and youll notice it, some people dont call it an rpg because they dont like the leveling system that oblivion has.. oblivion along with morrowind are two of the best rpgs ever made.

The leveling system makes is less rewarding to lvl up...and unless they fixed it there are some game ending glitchis you have to watch out for. like people disipearing.... It sucks.... I think Morrowind was better. You could become basicly GodLike.

ManKelly

whats the point of being godlike? i prefer to have anything that always matches me (not everything) no matter how strong i get

only some creatures level up with you, so if youre level 40 you can pretty much kill wolfs and imps with just one hit, you couldnt do that if you were 5, some whoever level with you like the ogre so that you always have a challenge and have someone that can match you. imo its a good system you can do many stuff in any level but always have creatures that challenge you considering your level (btw these creatures also will start to appear deppending on your level, wolfs=level 1 then boars= level 7, its just an example and keeps adding to the game new enemies as you play)

rising141

Most every other RPG in the history of gaming manged to present a constant threat by introducing new enemies, not having existing ones become inexplicably stronger and stronger. And why are there no boars in Cyrodill at Level 1, but there are at Level 7? There aren't very many enemies in Oblivion, and it's very obvious when new ones start popping up. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the big problem isn't the scaling itself, it's that the scaling is done so clumsily and transparently. Why are there no "Very Hard" lockpicks at the beginning of the game? There's no in-game explanation for it. The real explanation is that "Very Hard" locks would be very hard to pick at the beginning of the game; you'd fail a lot trying to pick one of these locks, and that might lower your self-esteem. That, combined with the fact that there's nothing in the "Very Hard" locked chest that's worth crap (since all loot is tied to your level), means there's no hard lockpicks in all the world at Level 1.

And as for that business about wolves still being around, why did they do that only with a couple creatures? Why are there bandits in caves wearing daedric armor? Daedric armor was so rare in Morrowind that only one person in the world had a full set of it.

i dont know whats all that talk about not feeling stronger.. im much stronger at level 40 than level 3 and try doing a rampage and anything else and youll notice it,

rising141

Oh really? Go grab yourself a normal weapon, say a silver longsword, at Level 40. Then go on a rampage against the guards. See how much fun that is. At Level 40, you should be one of the greatest fighters in the world. Why do the guards still take so many hits? Example 2: Go save Kvatch at Level 4 or at Level 20. It's about the same difficulty either way.

some people dont call it an rpg because they dont like the leveling system that oblivion has.. oblivion along with morrowind are two of the best rpgs ever made.

rising141

I don't call it a pure RPG because action gaming skills (hand-eye coordination) play a key role in the gameplay.

I agree with many of Palantas' points and think that the levelling system is awful.

Why can a Level 1 character become Arena champion? the greatest warrior in the land - at level 1?

Then you get to Level 20, go wandering around the hillsides and get attacked by a bandit in daedric armour which is meant to be incredibly rare, and highly valuable - not the sort of thing that a bandit would be wearing, let alone find dozens of bandits wearing it.

All the rewards and loot is levelled with you, so instead of knowing that a certain rare powerful weapon will be your reward at the end of a tough dungeon, you could get a iron dagger instead because you went to the dungeon as a low level character.

Oblivion totally dumbed down the difficulty of the game to avoid people taking advantage of the go-anywhere aspect of an open world game and finding a very tough monster that would easily kill them. The problem is that games SHOULD have places/monsters/events that are not accessible to low level characters and have things that can kill them in a single hit. That just encourages you to go away, improve your skills and come back later when you are more powerful. If the game dumbs it down so a level 1 character can complete any quest in the game you realise that the balance has been ruined.

If the game was linear and there was no other way to improve your character this sort of levelling could be helpful, but in an open world game where you could go off and do literally hundreds of other things to improve your skills before returning, there is no excuse.

Lets just hope Bethesda have learnt from their mistakes and don't repeat them in Fallout 3

I generally dislike the leveling system in Oblivion. Not the way you acquire skillups to level up, but the level scaling.

There are some plusses to level scaling. The most obvious being that you can immediately jump into the main quest without having to kill a bunch of rats and what not before being powerful enough to take on the sorts of enemies you'll be fighting in the main quest chain. On the other hand, it kills that sense of accomplishment from leveling. Enemies will always be about the same difficulty. Really, there's not much point to leveling in that case, imo.

The real problem with the leveling in Oblivion was that enemies geared up to ridiculous levels. After awhile, every random bandit is wearing what would have been considered some of the best armor in the game in previous entires in the Elder Scrolls series. The most damning thing about that is that it takes away a lot of the incentive to go out and explore. There's no need to go looking for the best gear you can find when any random foe will likely have something as good or better.

Oblivion is still a good game, but level scaling is the main reason I haven't put anywhere near the amount of time into it that I did with Morrowind. Just compare the difficulty in getting Umbra between the two games. By making it so you could attain rewards pretty much at any time, and then later making it so those rewards were overly abundant, I found little desire or motivation to go out and explore the world beyond completing some various quest chains.

oblivion's a great game and there is nothing wrong with its lv.ing system. most of the people in here must have never heard of the difficulty modifier.

oblivion's a great game and there is nothing wrong with its lv.ing system. most of the people in here must have never heard of the difficulty modifier.

lil_d_mack_314

Yes, I don't understand why people just don't make the enemies easier. Personally, I like that challenge.

[QUOTE="lil_d_mack_314"]

oblivion's a great game and there is nothing wrong with its lv.ing system. most of the people in here must have never heard of the difficulty modifier.

JohnnySN1P3R

Yes, I don't understand why people just don't make the enemies easier. Personally, I like that challenge.

well if people are complaining that the enemies are too hard and the lv.ing system is BAD then what would you suggest?

oblivion's a great game and there is nothing wrong with its lv.ing system. most of the people in here must have never heard of the difficulty modifier.

lil_d_mack_314

The difficulty modifier turns off the scaling?

oblivion's a great game and there is nothing wrong with its lv.ing system. most of the people in here must have never heard of the difficulty modifier.

lil_d_mack_314

The fact that people have to scale back the difficulty is a symptom of a broken leveling system.

With an appropriately balanced system, you'd find yourself better equipped to handle stronger enemies the longer you played and the higher you leveled. What happened with me, was that as a character designed to focus on ranged skills, stealth, and ranged magic, at around level 17 a crab could kill me. This shouldn't be the case. The fact that your level is tied to the skills you use the most means that you can level up incredibly fast by gaining lots of levels in certain skills (in my case archery and illusion), but be ridiculously underpowered in others (in my case, blade and light armor) that leave you extremely weak in the long run. The worst part of it is, you don't necessarily realize this is the case until it's too late to change it. I handled everything reasonably well until I had levelled myself into the late teens, and then all of a sudden the shortest romp across a meadow was an all out run for my life.

I had to scale the difficulty back, level my underused skills agressively, and then put the difficulty back on the standard level to continue the story. That's not how it should be, it's a sign of something that's not balanced in the leveling mechanic itself. A reasonably competent player should be able to play through the whole game on normal difficulty without having to push the difficulty back.

[QUOTE="creeping-deth87"]I see... so is it more fair to call it a really long adventure game than an RPG?Bigboi500

I got the platinum hits version for like $30 bucks and spent over seventy hours playing it, and you can get expansion packs for added quests, or just get the GOTY version for $60 with the packs included.

How is the game not a role-playing game? Don't you create and then make your role and then play that role? You don't sit back and watch the role be played for you like Final Fantasy. Oh and don't you build your character which enhances the whole "role-playing" experience?

I thought for a game to be an ACTUAL role-playing game you needed to truly play the role and in this game you do... If you want a action/adventure with RPG elements game then look closer to Diablo or even Too Human.

The leveling in Oblivion is obviously my biggest gripe with this great game. If I have leveled up to level 40 or so, I want to feel like my character is that strong. Instead, I could go into an Oblivion realm and get slaughtered instead of crushing everything in my path.

Luckily, there is a difficulty modifier that will allow the player balance the game. I understood when I was level 1 and entered an oblivion realm it was going to be tough. However, when I'm level 40, it shouldn't be THAT tough anymore. I know there are different enemies at higher levels, but if you leveled up pretty high, it didn't feel like you were powerful.

Even though the level scaling is a big gripe, it's still a masterpiece in my book. I'm glad that Bethesda put this difficulty modifier in Oblivion. It's better to have it and not use it than to not have it at all.

How is the game not a role-playing game? Don't you create and then make your role and then play that role? You don't sit back and watch the role be played for you like Final Fantasy. Oh and don't you build your character which enhances the whole "role-playing" experience?

I thought for a game to be an ACTUAL role-playing game you needed to truly play the role and in this game you do... If you want a action/adventure with RPG elements game then look closer to Diablo or even Too Human.

Agent_Kaliaver

No, not really. As misleading as the term "RPG" is, "playing a role" is not what defines an RPG ("RPG" for the remainder of my post will only refer to Western RPGs). You play a role in all kinds of games. In Gears, you play the role of Marcus Fenix. In Grand Theft Auto IV, you play the role of an immigrant petty criminal. So on and so on.

RPGs grew out of the tradition of Dungeons & Dragons, and other pen-and-paper role-playing games. The key mechanic there is that numbers, "stats," define your abilities in the game, and this is the case with computer (and console) RPGs. This is in contrast to action games, where your manual dexterity defines your combat prowress, or adventure games, where you largely solve puzzles to progress.

There are other elements typically seen in RPGs, such as a fantastic setting (be it high fantasy, science fiction, or something else), character interaction, and an emphasis on solving problems through methods other than fighting (which rely on your stats), though a game need not have all of these to be an RPG.

Diablo and Diablo II are completely, 100% RPGs. Numbers define what you can and cannot do in the game. It's also in a high fantasy setting. The Diablo games do not feature character interaction (very little) or peaceful solutions to combat. However, they're still RPGs.

For a long time now, shooters and RPGs have been merging, creating a hybrid genre. Modern games like Mass Effect and Oblivion have stats, which instead of entirely defining your in-game abilities, affect the action in the game. It's like a shooter, except that you level up, improving your speed, accuracy, and health. This is why some people don't think of Oblivion as a "true" RPG. I call it an RPG, I guess, since more and more games are going this route.

People people, come on...There is a difficulty slider in the options menu. If you want to feel like a god, just slide it all the way on the easy side so guys only take a couple of hits. Want to feel normal or have a challenge, then slide it up a bit.neo-rtsd

Just figured I would say it again since nobody seems to be reading.

[QUOTE="neo-rtsd"]People people, come on...There is a difficulty slider in the options menu. If you want to feel like a god, just slide it all the way on the easy side so guys only take a couple of hits. Want to feel normal or have a challenge, then slide it up a bit.neo-rtsd

Just figured I would say it again since nobody seems to be reading.

We're not reading? That's pretty funny, given the contents of your post. Either you're not reading, or you're willfully misunderstanding the complaints here.

No one is complaining about the difficulty. We're complaining about the lack of a sense of progression that Oblivion's leveling system creates. This problem cannot be solved by the difficulty slider.

[QUOTE="neo-rtsd"]

[QUOTE="neo-rtsd"]People people, come on...There is a difficulty slider in the options menu. If you want to feel like a god, just slide it all the way on the easy side so guys only take a couple of hits. Want to feel normal or have a challenge, then slide it up a bit.Palantas

Just figured I would say it again since nobody seems to be reading.

We're not reading? That's pretty funny, given the contents of your post. Either you're not reading, or you're willfully misunderstanding the complaints here.

No one is complaining about the difficulty. We're complaining about the lack of a sense of progression that Oblivion's leveling system creates. This problem cannot be solved by the difficulty slider.

Explain why.

Explain why.

neo-rtsd

This is like me complaining about my controller not working, and you suggest I color-correct my TV. They're completely different problems. That's my explanation to you: Your proposed solution does not address the problem. On PC, you can get mods which do alter the blatanly obvious scaling in Oblivion to give a more Morrowind feel. Now that is a solution that actually fixes the problem.

You can explain to me how the difficulty slider will fix the following:

• At Level 20, homeless bandits running around in epic armor.
• The lack or risk/reward, in attacking powerful enemies for valuable loot.
• Killing Mannimarco at Level 4. Guess what, you can still kill him with the game set to "hard." It's just marginally harder.
• The fauna of Cyrodill changing at Level 7.
• The guards being way overpowered at Level 40. Turning the slider down doesn't change the fact that while you should be able to mop the floor with these twerps, you can't.
• Nothing's locked up tight at lower levels.
• There's nothing worth locking up tight at lower levels.

THANK you for the subject