[QUOTE="ValronWolf"]

I do disagree about how you framed the game developers as working day in and day out for our enjoyment; In my opinion, most games are crap and most developers want to make a quick buck. These are not martyrs we're talking about, just regular people. Some of them make outstanding products but none of them do it for selfless reasons.

Teufelhuhn

Second, you say since the trying-before-you-buy model doesn't exist in some industries, that it makes no sense. You say that we should take a leap of faith. Why would would someone take a leap of faith when there an alternative?(albeit an illegal one). Trying the full product before you buy it is a common method used in many different industries. In my opinion, this is the best option you can hope for. If you don't like something, you can return it; if you like it, you pay for it. The only difference is that payment is not enforced if you're pirating.

ValronWolf

Developers offer legitimate try-before-you-buy options all of the time...they're called demos.

I believe I mis-communicated my point about people in the games industry. I was simply saying that they're not altruistic and do not slave over a project purely for our enjoyment; they expect compensation. As you said, most might not be in it for the money but judging by the quality of games I've been seeing recently, I can't believe most are in it for the joy of game developement.

As for your second point, I mentioned that piracy is illegal. I was trying to explain the reason that might compel someone to become a pirate. And demos are generally released to create hype and showcase some of the more interesting mechanics in a game. I have bought games based on my impressions of a demo and have been sorely disappointed.

I have to mention this again. I am not advocating piracy. I simply want to present another perspective after all the groundless vitriol and hate I saw directed towards it.

[QUOTE="ValronWolf"]

I do disagree about how you framed the game developers as working day in and day out for our enjoyment; In my opinion, most games are crap and most developers want to make a quick buck. These are not martyrs we're talking about, just regular people. Some of them make outstanding products but none of them do it for selfless reasons.

Rekunta

Of course not, it's their profession, their livelihood depends on the money they get from their work. And I know they're not matyrs, but they do work to create something that we enjoy. It's just showing appreciation. Btw, pirates don't pirate crap games, I was referring to titles such as Crysis, etc. Not Barbie horse designer.

Second, you say since the trying-before-you-buy model doesn't exist in some industries, that it makes no sense. You say that we should take a leap of faith. Why would would someone take a leap of faith when there an alternative?(albeit an illegal one). Trying the full product before you buy it is a common method used in many different industries. In my opinion, this is the best option you can hope for. If you don't like something, you can return it; if you like it, you pay for it. The only difference is that payment is not enforced if you're pirating.

ValronWolf

Why should someone be entitled to use something and after a while decide whether to pay for it or not? Would you be okay with going to a car dealership, driving a car off the lot, using it for a week and then returning it without paying because you decide you don't like it? Or going to a car rental place, driving for a week, and then returning it, not paying under the premise "no I didn't like the car, sorry". Why/whynot?

So unless anyone can prove that piracy is directly detrimental to software sales, the only argument against piracy is that you're breaking the law (and not criminally, it's copyright infringement.)

ValronWolf

*pulls hair out*

I don't know why people can't understand this. It's IMPOSSIBLE to show how piracy affects software sales, because those lost sales caused by piracy DO NOT EXIST in any tangible degree, thus they cannot be measured, nor compared to how many would've sold if piracy were somehow impossible. There is no way to show how much piracy affects the industry, it's purely speculation and opinion. And I believe copyright infringement is criminal, could be wrong though.

Heh. It was not my intention to make you pull your hair out, I apologize. Couple things before I head off to bed. All types of games are pirated, not just the ones with high production values. My other point was that a common business model is allowing the customers to try their product without restrictions to functionality. For example: software(30 day trials), food(free samples), cars(test drives). So it's no a matter of taking something and returning it whenever you want, there are stipulation and time restrictions. In the video game business you may get a demo or you can rent(which is very similar to piracy, as someone pointed out in a previous post). I believe the lack of reliable mechanism for consumers to test games before they buy them is one of the reasons for the proliferation of piracy, many people simply don't want to leave it up to faith and review scores.

Lastly, I don't believe it's impossible to showquantitativelythat piracy affects game sales. You simply need a well funded research effort to follow the trends of a thousand or so pirates(as a start); this I believe is well in the realm of possiblity. Also, copyright infringement is not tried in criminal court(in North America at least.)

I understand what you're saying and I agree that the people that create these games should be compensated for all their hard work. There certainly is group of people out there who feel entitled to whatever they lay their eyes on, but these people don't represent all pirates.

I do disagree about how you framed the game developers as working day in and day out for our enjoyment; In my opinion, most games are crap and most developers want to make a quick buck. These are not martyrs we're talking about, just regular people. Some of them make outstanding products but none of them do it for selfless reasons.

Second, you say since the trying-before-you-buy model doesn't exist in some industries, that it makes no sense. You say that we should take a leap of faith. Why would would someone take a leap of faith when there an alternative?(albeit an illegal one). Trying the full product before you buy it is a common method used in many different industries. In my opinion, this is the best option you can hope for. If you don't like something, you can return it; if you like it, you pay for it. The only difference is that payment is not enforced if you're pirating.

So unless anyone can prove that piracy is directly detrimental to software sales, the only argument against piracy is that you're breaking the law (and not criminally, it's copyright infringement.)

I don't understand why everyone has such an emotionally charged opinion about piracy. There are no ifrefutable facts stating that it damages OR helps the industry. From what I've read in this post, most people just argue their personal feelings or regurgitate some opinion they've heard. If you're not a pirate, great. If you are, be ethical about it.

For example, if you download a game and you dislike it(you probably won't finish it) - delete it; this is money well saved. If you greatly enjoyed a game you've pirated, be sure to support the developers; If you have the money, buy the game brand new; If you cannot afford it, write a good review about, recommend it to a friend, or simply save up until you can.

The only argument for piracy I currently consider valid is using it as a tool to decide whether a game is worth the purchase. If a demo does not exist for the game, the only way you can determine if you'll like it(legally) is to read reviews(or if you're lucky, you might have a friend who will let you borrow it). Reviews can be misleading or the reviewer may simply have a different taste in games than you. A demo only show cases a small portition of game and does not necessarily indicate the overall quality. Thus, piracy can be used as a tool to remove the risk of buying a game which you may dislike and increase the chances of buying a game you will enjoy.

Piracy is of course a moral grey region since you are taking something for free which is meant to be paid for. But since we don't live in a world with black and white moral choices, at least use piracy to support those that you believe deserve to be support.

This post isn't advocating piracy; it is simply showing that it is a tool, and as such, not inherently good or bad. It depends on the person who uses it.