to the person who said its not censorship. i think you need to understand the concept a bit more. no video games are actualy censored by your logic since all the games are changed by the companys that make them. but its the REASON for that change in wich the censorship lies. meaning that if they DONT change or self-censor their games then they get a rating that will in effect ban their games from being sold anyplace but the web. since ALL major (and most minor)retail outlets wont sell AO games.

you are correct that its the companys that censor themselves , but its only due to 3rd party rules that they do. otherwise why would they go to all the trouble to create the content in the first place if they didnt intend for it to be seen by the end user? they didnt just wake up one morning and say 'ohh, well we spent 400+ hrs making all these sex related content,but i think we will now remove them from the game for no reason what so ever'.

dont confuse censorship like what an admin could do in this forum say, like actualy changing or deleting your words, and the censorship that companys face if they dont follow someone elses rules reguarding content and are in effect baned from selling their work because of those rules. the end result is the consumer or reader doesnt get to see the actual content as the creater intended but rather only gets to view it through the filter of someone elses standards of 'right and wrong'. and that is the heart and soul of censorship no matter how you care to parse the actual phrases.

the problem isnt with the rating its with the people who sell it. the person that said there needs to be another rating between teen and AO is right. some games are basicaly porn games (though rare like leasure suit larry comes too mind off hand) and do need a special class of their ownbut the vast majority of AO games have nothing to do with sex and are no worse or better than an R rated movie.

i dont understand why stores like wal-mart would stock copys of a movie like 'scar face' but not sell an AO game (like the GTA:SA that could have the hot coffie mod applyed). scar face makes GTA look like barney,

and also i agree that the issue has nothing to do with a pic of some nipples, its about censorship in general. im all for 'keeping it from the kids' but im NOT for that at the expence of an adults right to choose their own forms of entertainment. im 36 years old i should not have to have ANY of my media choices censored by anyone. least of all my games because parents are too lazy to actualy be bothered to make sure their snot nosed brats arent doing something they shouldnt do.

mr. bojangles would you dance for her too?

anyhow i want elanee from NWN 2, any chick that can turn into a badger must be a wicked handful in the sac :)

I don't know man, when I entered that one guys house I found it pretty disgusting. The sound of the flys just set it off. Very atmospheric game.BlackBart2

yeah i know just the house you mean, the house outside holly wood just before you enter into the sewers looking for the nossys. that whole section of the game can still make my hair stand on end.

ahh well if he doesnt want to try it, its his loss i guess, it does have some pretty hard core religious connections in the game though so i can see that being an issue since the game basicaly makes you anti God, i wasnt really totaly comfortable with the way the game made killing priests a requirement nore the way they were joked about with the 'stakin fer Jesus' lines and such.

on the other hand some of the games hes allready listed that hes played are atleast as bad so to each his own. i refuse to play certian games for some pretty obscure reasons myself. you couldnt get me to play oblivion with a gun to my head given my experiance with morrowind, stupid? prolly, but thats the way it is for me.

Moo3 is tops on my list because of what it could have been AND because i made the mistake of buying it in the $40 range.

rise of nations is another one. far too complicated for no return.

Europa universalis (original) was horrible, promised the world and deliverd a steaming pile of crap.

Space colony was one i really wanted to like but in the end i couldnt

and finaly , pretty much any game ever promoted by Atari or global star, or with a very few exceptions anything with the words tycoon in the name.

vampire is a must play imo, i wouldnt worry about the M rating (unless your 12 and your mom is interested) its mostly due to the language. pretty much every person in the game cusses like a sailor. nothing else in that game is any worse than any other T rated game. its got hookers and strippers in it but they all have more cloths on than most fantasy RPG toons do at creation and the 'blood and gore' isnt turn your stomach kind of thing. its a game about vampires blood is a given.

try it i bet you will like it.

first let me say i enjoyed em both, perhaps the best money ive ever spent on a game. but im one of the ones that despite its obvious flaws, enjoyed the second one more. it was a much more mature storyline than the first one in my opinion. you had to actualy think about your decisions for a while, they werent quite so black and white obvious as in the first game, and i REALLY enjoyed the development of your toon alot more. the choices for upgrading both equipment and the toon itself were alot more in depth than the first one.

ill say this, if they had actualy finished the second one , it would be my all time hands down favorite game. by the same token if the first one had all the toon development options as the second one, THAT one would take the top slot. as it is the second one gets the edge for me, but only by a wisker. its really too close to call and id recomend getting them both if at all possable. and id also add that even the second one in its 'unfinshed' state is STILL better than 99% of the crap youd play in other series and every bit as good as the first one, just ....... different.