The Magic Of Challenging Games - Reboot 16.5

Mike and Jake delve deeper into the appeal of challenging games, and whether games such as Cuphead should be compared to Dark Souls anymore.

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Alexander2cents

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Edited By Alexander2cents

Dark Souls isn't even that hard.

Though I do find most games these days pointless because any sort of difficulty or challenge thrown at the player without him getting a choice to avoid it will seem outdated. Oh why engage an enemy with tank like controls? Just sneak around him what will you and bow and arrow him , with smooth fluid controls just like in HDZ. Why fiddle with a camera when you can have it 30 meters away from the player character? If you don't follow any of these modern hand holdy guidelines. Send that dinosaur back to the stone age. It belongs on Microsoft Windows 95 right next to Bioforge. Its outdated.

You know what should be outdated is making ugly complex loading screens in video games with 3D models and hints and micro transactions.

Call Nintendo Kiddy all you want. They used to put challenge in their games. Now its all ugly shlocky tutorials with cheesiness.

Its also what sells! Selling a video game is tough. You can no longer have an edgy Sega Genesis commercial with a man screaming at you telling you are not tough enough to beat this video game. Now you must sell a game on its story and atmosphere. It must be like a movie.

A game can be fun if its balanced at its difficulty. Just like Banjo Kazooie. It starts you on easy objectives and will ultimately get frustrating.

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Caduceus89

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People game for different reasons but shouldn't go into every game expecting it to cater to those reasons. I generally play games for immersion and story with difficulty being part of the immersion. Games like Cuphead are difficult for a reason and while its unfortunate that not everyone can enjoy it, the reason still stands. Not everyone can play football either but I don't imagine that that would be the reason to change the rules or make it somehow "easier." The future Souls game shouldn't have a difficulty slider because they were made to be played with a certain mindset. Adding a difficulty slider to games just because some people can't/won't put in the time to master the game is probably part of the reason why we're getting some of these bland cookie cutter open world games instead of finely tuned experiences.

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deactivated-5d10628188787

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@Caduceus89:Your football example is not entirely accurate: if you play professional football, sure - if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. But what if you just play in the back yard with your friends and family for fun? Then the strict rules of football are easily bent and shaped so everyone could enjoy. And that's what the difficulty slider is all about.

And we're getting bland cookie cutter open world games because they sell well and can be easily monetized, one has nothing to do with the other.

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horizonwriter

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@amirfoox: I would disagree with the last part of your comment. You mentioned that they sell well but not why they do and I think that the easing of difficulty and the overall more generic tone being set in these games in order to make them more accessible is a massive part of that, which goes to the point Caduceus was making. I'm not necessarily against it (companies have to make a buck) but I don't want a market overly saturated with it either.

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hushed_kasket

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This is the "political correctness" discussion of video game difficulty.

And it's really sad that it's come to this.

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deactivated-5d10628188787

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@hushed_kasket: You're only saying that because you're on one side of the spectrum and refuse to see the other side's viewpoint, as if one comes at the expense of the other. But it doesn't, really - you can have your precious super difficult game, and with a simple click I can have the same game you have, but in a noob-friendly form. Everyone's happy.

I really can't see the harm in that.

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hushed_kasket

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Edited By hushed_kasket

@amirfoox: No, there are games I never could finish or didn't feel motivated to because of the difficulty. So I know exactly what that's like. I can empathize.

But I don't lobby that devs (artists) should compromise their vision (art) to satisfy my need for a false sense of accomplishment. I'm not a believer in participation trophies.

For some games, the difficulty is a by-product and isn't integral to the design— those devs probably don't mind at all giving you the option (and MOST do give you the option) to lower the difficulty. In other games, like the ones discussed here, the difficulty makes the game what it is. The way you play is as important a design consideration as the images you see on the screen. You're arguing the devs simply "keep the images the same" but let me play your vision the way I want. Not "design something I can experience" but "design an experience I want."

When you ask artists to "dumb down" their work for the masses, it loses what sets it apart in the first place. Van Gogh becomes Warhol. Johnny Cash becomes Kenny Chesney. Dead Rising becomes Dead Rising 4. And Cuphead becomes HooplaKidz.


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deactivated-5d10628188787

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@hushed_kasket: Again, inaccurate examples that hurt the point you were trying to make more than drive it home. I'm not saying: "Games are not art", I'm saying games are a dynamic art. You can't interact with a Van Gogh.

The developers can make the game they intended to, keep it just the way it is, mark the set difficulty as the pinnacle experience with bold letters and huge arrows - just the way the developers truly intended you to play their game. But simply allowing the option is not the definition of dumbing down which hurts the result as a whole, nor is it any detriment to the game's true form.

We'll agree to disagree, then.

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hushed_kasket

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@amirfoox: You're conflating something being dynamic and something being interactive. Games are interactive art, but they aren't dynamic art. The gamer can affect the images on the screen but doesn't change the overall vision of the piece. Art is expression through different media, often to elicit a specific reaction, and to be appreciated for its beauty and emotional power. The devs ultimately decide what tone, what message, what reaction they want to elicit. And if they want to elicit that through story moments alone, fine. But if crushing difficulty adds to the overall tone they want to convey, you have to respect that. Dark Souls became so popular and still usually comes up in gaming conversations BECAUSE of the difficulty. Otherwise, it would idle in relative obscurity with other games like Lords of the Fallen, Dragon's Dogma, or even Nioh and The Surge (both of which were released THIS YEAR to positive reviews and have already faded back into Dark Souls' shadow).

You can argue for accessibility, or you can argue with unfettered artistic expression, but you can't demand both. If accessibility is part of the dev's vision, good for them. If not, experience their vision the way they see it, with difficulty just another facet of the expression they intend. The visuals of a game can remain the same with watered down difficulty, but the emotional power of the game can suffer.

"But why can't we all just get to experience this art the same, from start to finish, that's fair." Because "fairness," "accessibility," "palatability," and "maximized sales" have nothing to do with real art.





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deactivated-5d10628188787

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@hushed_kasket: As I've said before in another post below: "If all you bring to the table is a hard experience to overcome, like it's some sort of a worthless badge of honor to show to strangers on the Internet, then you cheapen the whole gaming experience, in my opinion. Your game needs to stand on its own."

Dark Souls' interface is clunky, ancient. It's graphics - dated. Its gameplay not stellar. No, the main reason Dark Souls is still discussed while others are not is because it was the first that turned into some sort of a modern badge of honor, a rite of passage to "real gamers" that "got gud". Using high words as if it's a painting or a symphony will not change my opinion.

Now if you don't mind, I will agree to disagree and decline from further discussion on the matter, thank you.

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hushed_kasket

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Edited By hushed_kasket

@amirfoox:Great, thanks for the floor and your undivided attention.

"If all you bring to the table is a hard experience to overcome" – Dude, LIFE is one big hard experience to overcome. But like life, these games offer beauty, fun, heartache, discovery, and much more AS YOU OVERCOME them.

These games DO stand on their own. They don't NEED @amirfoox to play them to be exactly what they are, just like you don't need to play them for your own sense of validation. They don't ask anything of you, except for your best attempt. But you're asking them to change. I didn't realize "painting" was a "high word" (?), but recognize that Cuphead and Dark Souls are works of art. Difficulty is part of the work as designed. Whether it's asking Monet to paint using more shades of blue because some people have trouble seeing greens, or asking Metallica to play "Enter Sandman" in the key of C instead of E Minor because it sounds happier and less depressing, you're making demands on creators. Regardless how insignificant you perceive that change to be, it's still a change.

"Dark Souls is still discussed while others are not because it was the first that turned into some sort of a modern badge of honor, a rite of passage to 'real gamers' that 'got gud'." - YES, and that is what some games and game creators aim to do. They set a universal standard and dare you to achieve it.

But you say, "No, no, scale to my skill level! Scale to my level of investment! ACCOMMODATE ME!!" Here's a question: why not always include god mode, with infinite ammo and invincibility? It's the same request you're making, but just taking it further, right? Maybe you'd say, "SURE, I don't see how that would hurt."

Simply put, for devs to create something gamers and the larger community will respect, they first have to create something they themselves can respect. A minimum standard of difficulty is not a ridiculous requirement, and some devs hold their fans to a higher standard. Deal with it.

Look, if this ---> http://gph.is/2eZYnUJ <--- is you, it's okay. We're not laughing at you (anymore). But stop trying to homogenize the balance of video game design expectations & incentives on utilitarian grounds.

Through the history of the world, those who accomplish the tasks others find difficult have been rewarded, sometimes the challenge itself being the sole impetus for the attempt. And throughout human history, people unable (or, more often, unwilling) to achieve those goals have whined about not receiving the same benefits or experience. Video games obviously have not changed that.

Good day, sir.

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vallee05

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There are plenty of games that are normal or easy to play. Not to many hard good challenging games to play. I think to many games are ruined by dumbing down the mechanics to make it open for a broader audience, which now ruins the experience and challenge for me. If you find the game to hard, move on to the next game, because for someone who loves harder games... there aren't many games to choose from.

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Nelson85

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My days off trying to complete a ridiculously hard game is over. My patience is not what it use to be... Completed hard games on Nes, SNES, Genesis, etc back in day. But, now after I reached the first boss on Bloodborne and kept dying I knew my days off hard asf games was over. But most games I play if the options for difficulty is there I still won't put it on easy. Sometimes normal feels a little too easy to me. So I just do normal first playthrough second I crank it up to hard or sometimes very hard.

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streamline

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@nelson85: Yeah, somehow repetition got boring as I got older. Maybe I outgrew the OCD of not caring how often I replay the same level because I need to beat it. There is more fun to be had elsewhere.

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SebB

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I really really hate punishing games like Dark Souls and it’s imitations from every indie game. When I play a game it’s to feel control and power which most people don’t have in real life. Not to feel like a failure dying over and over in a game that was made by mentally disturbed weirdos who think the purpose of playing a game is to see the game over screen and scream in frustration after seeing it 20 times.

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mogan

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mogan  Moderator

@sebb: Mentally disturbed weirdos? Super classy there, guy.

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SebB

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@Mogan: I was just angry when I typed this. I cannot conceive how overly difficult games can be truly enjoyed. Why would you play a game like that? For the satisfaction you feel when/if you succeed I guess. I know I tried over and over to play Dark Souls and just failed every time. Of course everyone is free to like or dislike any game. Those games are just not for me. It just gets to me when people think punishing games are great and fun because of my personal experience and frustrations playing those games. They are entitled to their opinion of course. I should not judge for this. Just expressing my own opinion with my previous comment.

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HAWK9600

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I'm glad you guys exist, and continue to make great stuff like this. Such organized, compelling ideas. Keep up the good work!

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JEF8484

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Another great reboot guys. Pretty good video game journalism. Not pandering to certain people and using critical thought. Good stuff.

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JEF8484

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@JEF8484: *** Better than IGN, lmao***

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gotrekfabian

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Edited By gotrekfabian

I'm glad that someone touched on disabilities in gaming. I have nystagmus and am considered partially sighted as a consequence. I still enjoy a tough game now and then and have conquered Demon/Dark Souls games, Ninja Gaiden 1 and 2 and many tough games from yesteryear which many today would consider too difficult to play (such as 8 bit classics which gave you 3 lives for the whole game). My difficulty is reaction in FPS in particular as my eyes don't behave and often look at another part of the screen rather than the enemy I am tracking. I don't let it hold me back and still play FPS games like Battlefield 1 but it does get tedious when you get teabagged or, worse still, slated in the chat for your disability. I never use it as an excuse despite these incidents and continue to enjoy gaming no matter what as, for all I know, my sight could deteriorate further and stop me enjoying it altogether.

As for games being too hard, I just don't see it as a problem today. Games are easier than they used to be and, if a certain game is too tough for you, there is always another one out there that will suit your needs. Gamers have never had it so good as it is today (and many still whine!) and can pick and choose something to cater for their taste but, having said that, some games really could benefit from a difficulty level or assists which can be turned on/off as needed. Yes, it takes a little more programming and testing on the developers part but, done correctly, it would benefit the sales figures ultimately. Gaming isn't the niche hobby that it was when I first took it up and it should cater to the masses and accept that it is now a mainstream activity that contends with films, TV and music for people's time but, that being said, to make every game hold your hand and guide you to your goal without death or failure would be a travesty. A game without some challenge is largely pointless (I do enjoy a bit of 'light gaming' now and then though), and to alienate the hardcore gamers out there and not supply them with what they want occasionally would only serve to alienate them from gaming and that too would be a travesty after all it is the hardcore gamers out there that made gaming what it is today: if those gamers didn't purchase and play during the inception of gaming then video games would not be what they are today.

Me, if I want a challenge these days, I tend to look to trophy/achievement hunting. There are usually enough challenges in this to ensure that I am challenged and that I get the most out of a game too.

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deactivated-5d10628188787

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@gotrekfabian:Hey man, good on you for playing tough games, disability or no.

But I'm a hard working man with a wife and kids, so I already have my life challenges. I sometimes just want to enjoy my games for an hour or two, not work through them. I would really like experiencing the story, atmosphere and gameplay that Dark Souls, Bloodborne and even Dragon's Dogma seem to offer, but I don't have the time and energy to spend days, let alone weeks to "git gud". Yes, there are other games I play, but these games are blocked for me, which is a shame.

Adding an easy mode (developers can call it "Newbie Corner" for all I care) would go a great length in allowing me to enjoy more games. Some like it white-knuckles tough, some don't, is it really that hard to simply add a difficulty slider, without punishing the player for it? If all you bring to the table is a hard experience to overcome, like it's some sort of a worthless badge of honor to show to strangers on the Internet, then you cheapen the whole gaming experience, in my opinion. Your game needs to stand on its own.

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gotrekfabian

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@amirfoox: Time is always the bane of anyone with a hobby and making sacrifices is the only way to ensure you get your precious moments doing what you enjoy. Again, I believe that games should be inclusive where difficulties are concerned. Having difficulty levels or gamer aids to ensure more people can enjoy a game makes perfect sense to me and, theoretically, would ensure more sales (although sometimes being difficult is something which makes gamers flood to a particular game such as Dark Souls).

Going back to time though, we just have to face the fact that we will never be able to play all of those games which we want to. I wish that I could spend more time reading and seeing the latest films but gaming is my passion and I have to sacrifice those other desires to an extent in order to ensure I get my satisfaction where I can. Curse this mortal coil from being too short! :D

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JEF8484

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Edited By JEF8484

@gotrekfabian: I think gamers these days are bitching too much cause of shady business decisions, while overlooking the passion developers have. The business is shit, for sure, but bad business in games doesnt mean a shitty game, per se. Nice post though man.

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gotrekfabian

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@JEF8484: Definitely, most gripes these days are due to incomplete games which require constant patches (games rushed out in order to gain immediate income for publishers usually), microtransactions and DLC (which sell content that should have been included in the game) and console Wars (God, I hate those fanboy rants!). Publishers have too much control over the developers today and need to understand that they are merely backers in a project and don't have the final say as to when a project is complete but until there is a serious union for games software development staff that isn't going to happen. Corporate greed is the driving force for gaming today and, let's face it, it isn't in too had a state just now. Yes, there are things which I would change but there are still a satisfactory amount of games out there which give me pleasure without making me curse about something or other. To repeat myself: gamers have never had it so good.

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DudeBroPartyYo

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I dont have an issue with most modern games holding peoples hands but every game needs an option to turn every aspect off possible assistance of if they wish so as well as many more levels of difficulty while not being unrealistically hard.

Sometimes i want a hard challenge playing a game and other times i just want to finish the story so one same game should give both options if player wishes to choose.

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mogan

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mogan  Moderator

@monkey_shines: Yeah, the Elder Scrolls and Fallout games handle difficulty really poorly. Except for Fallout 4's Survival Mode, I thought that was really well done.

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JEF8484

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@dudebropartyyo: I would agree with that for most games. The player should really know what their playing first though. Souls games gameplay is really dependent on the difficulty though- making it easier would diminish its quality. Larger scale RPG's and the like should offer more flexibility. Just my take on it.

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gotrekfabian

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@JEF8484: What about if DS games had a difficulty slider but those who were looking for the challenge played it on its intended difficulty or chased after the trophies in order to feel suitably challenged? I don't think having difficulty tied into DS would change my satisfaction of the games after all, it's only myself who I am challenging. If people wanted to cheat themselves by playing an easier difficulty the surely that's their call, it wouldn't diminish any feeling of achievement which I garnered from the game.

PS As said in the video, DS games aren't really that hard save for a few optional bosses and where it is levelling up via grinding/multiple attempts/seeking out a strategy is enough to get you past said boss. It's just that compared to most games today that it comes out as being a little more difficult.

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dmblum1799

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The great thing about the Souls games is that the really aren't difficult if you learn the mechanics and the builds. Some builds are fairly easy. Using npcs and co-op makes bosses easier. If you play a pure faith build in certain of the Souls games, well, it will be hard. If you play as naked dude, even harder. It's up to the player to choose in the organic world of the game, the difficulty - not on a slider or a patronizing "don't hurt me daddy." mode.

I've beaten all those games for dozens of NGs because I love the genre and the games themselves. I wouldn't get anywhere in Cuphead because I hate platforming. I've been gaming for many years and early in gaming there was way too much of it.

Generally, if you love a game enough, you'll master it naturally. This isn't rocket science.

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ShadowWeaver

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@dmblum1799: I agree with everything you said except th last statement. I loved Path of Exile and tried my best to learn the mechanics particularly with the gem system. I felt like you needed to be a physicist to learn it all.

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JEF8484

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@dmblum1799: This. Pretty much nailed it. Its more about be rewarded through patience than absurd difficulty.

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JEF8484

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@JEF8484: being*

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Subaru1980

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I love difficult games, but sometimes it's becoming really unfair. I remember the old Ninja Gaidens, they were really really brutal and most of the gamers never finished them.

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DudeBroPartyYo

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@Subaru1980: I agree but hats of to those who did master them. I also have respect for people master games that are not really hard but just not good mechanics wise. Most people would just give up haha

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