Microsoft drops 360's HD DVD player

Razu_gamer LOL MS, they were too scared to add a HD DVD as standard on 360. Thats called good business sense my friend. You dont base your system on a format war. Sony took a HUGE risk....and the risk paid off. But that doen't mean MS made a bad decision by making it an add on. Last I checked they used standard DVD's anyway and have a download service for all their movies...which is where the market will go anyway. Sony will enjoy its victory Im sure in the format war but it still doesn't change the fact they have no games to put on the format. Still just a Blu Ray player IMO.

3 years ago im using CD (700MB) to backup my PC data, musics, videos, hentai, etc... It was like $0.50 per CD. But now i upgrade to DVD (4700MB) ,because its $0.50 per DVD now. Im pretty sure BD(25000MB) would be $0.50 - $2.00 per disc in 3 years time, and then again its time to move on. Technologies improve exponentially you know. (I don't live in NA, price rates might differ.)

LOL MS, they were too scared to add a HD DVD as standard on 360.

Im not disputing that there are bluray deals out there at the moment.. but it wont beat the hd dvd clearance sales.. also you still have to spend £300 on a system.. im not prepared to spend that kind of money .. either it be Bluray maching.. HD DVD or PS3.. The ps3 is easy to update compared to older bluray players but i hear that the films frame rates are not as smooth as the better bluray players out there.. plus i may get a surround all in one bluray system to go with my tv.. (my current DVD upscaler home cinema has known optical input lip sync issues) (samsung) Ill say it again.. Im not so desperate for HD on my tv that ill buy a ps3 @£300 just for bluray.. Ill stick with HD DVD for now until the need arises in a couple of years for a bluray player.. (~ie all the latest releases at that time are so good and DVD dosent cut it) ps I saw matrix trilogy on HD DVD for $40.. thats like £20 for me.. also on amazon.com there were some older classics for $11.. thats like £6.. note..I will be getting Sky hd at some point this year so they will have updated films.. my 360 will have the games.. I have a DVD 108- upscaller.. I can easily do without a bluray player for a little while longer..

--bakasora -- Ummm...DVD replaced VHS Tape...that was a huge change. DVD to Blu-ray is not nearly the same leap in tech. Also DVD released in what '97?...11 years ago. Blu-ray is not going too replace DVD in 3-years.

This was pretty inevitable. Still, as long as everyones releasing DVD's I'm going to stay with my standard DVD player, I won't bother switching to Blu-Ray untill one of 3 things happens. 1.) A PS3 exclusive comes out that's a 'must own' for me. 2.) Companies begin to phase out DVD production 3.) A very cheap Blu-Ray player comes out.

I got one for 180 for christmas

Ps3 is actually a great blu-ray player for cheap. It can be updated, where alot of cheaper blu-ray players cant. Well there are already quite a few hd dvd movies announced for blu-ray so i dont think thats holding up so well. I know hd dvd is dead but most of those movies you can find for $15 you will also be able to find for $15 dollars on blu-ray soon enough. You just have to look for sales. Amazon.com has buy one get ones, buy two get ones. There is a section on blu-ray.com just for people to tell each other about sales. Blu-rays can be had for cheap. I just bought Weeds season 2 for $27.99 which is cheaper than most retail stores have it for on regular dvd. Along with that i got season 1 for $20.00 and Casino Royale for free. Deals are out there. Those clauses would have to be with each movie company. So if you can find where each movie company agreed to not realease prior films on blu-ray if hddvd went bust then ill believe you.

today's BD is like DVD-5-years-ago. 3-years-later-BD would be like today's DVD.

When i state large selection. obviously its not going to be in tens of thousands like dvd.. more like a few hundred.. your talking like people want to make a lifelong investment.. dude i dont know if u were watching. but hd dvd is dead,, what i said was for $15 a pop u can get hd content for your homet cinema.. i\lso you would want mainly action films like matrix or transformers.. its not about love storys in hd.. sorry hugh grant.. so u can get a good top 20. n the uk sky hd and the ps3 is £300... i wont get sky for that price and have no reason to get a ps3.. until i find a high quality bluray machine with all the bells i require for a reasonable price.. (£129 in 2 years) what would you suggest is a good option for true 1080p for cheap.. ps part of hd dvd clauses was that if it went bust.. back log of films cant be re released for bluray..

Wingnut99 do you believe compressed files and umcompressed files are the same quality? Last time i checked the more you compress a file the more you lose quality. Kinda like mp3's great for storage horrible for quality. Also i believe it takes longer to load a uncompressed file as compared to a compressed file. THERE IS MORE TO LOAD!

most of the 360 games that have come out already are class. there are all on dvd disks.. in the next few years.. its not disk space that will determin if a game will be good or not.. yes obviously if u have no space restriction then its all good but the only games that would need extra space would be heavy audio and text rpg's or games with lots of fmv's. (metal gear did fine on a dvd) and in the case that a game is 2 large 2 disks would not be anything to cry about..

Yea i would defnitly want a add on thats worth next to nothing. Large selection? Umm lets compare the selection of dvd to hddvd. That is not a large selection. Maybe if you arent looking to expand your collection anymore. If you are still going to get a hddvd player go and get a stand alone player. That way you can just throw it in your bedroom and use it as an upconvertiing player and watch some hddvds. Who wants a player as their main player that you arent going to be able to get new releases on Save the money and get a blu-ray player because you are more than likely going to end up getting one eventually anyways. All those movies on hddvd will be on blu-ray soon.

At $50, I might actually get one. Once the movies follow suit and go on clearance, things will be good. I can't afford my PS3 right now, so this is a good/cheap way to preview some real Hi-def content on my home theatre. I would have NEVER EVER bought this peripheral if the "format war" had not ended like this. I probably still won't buy it, but at least the close-out prices have me thinking about it. Bye-Bye HD-DVD - Hello Blu-ray!!!

O yea i forgot dvd has just as much storage space as a blu-ray disc. You do realize that the dvd will eventually run out of room. I think thats the reason why xbox cant hold the audio quality that a blu-ray disc has. You are just rambling on trying to make sense of nothing. No kidding they are always working on systems right after the next. There is no way the system is complete. For one details would be leaked and secondly it is way too early for the system to be final. They will be making changes for years and the system you confirm is finished will much different by the time it actually rolls out. Your trying to say blu-ray and dvd are next to the same because they are both discs. Storage space makes a huge difference. I think ill take a blu-ray over dvd any day. Too bad Lost Odyssey isnt on Ps3. I wonder how many discs would have been used. By the way i own both systems and if anyone says they would rather have dvd over blu-ray they are only kidding themselves. Enjoy your xbox as will i. Well i guess when the new xbox 360 comes out you wont be in support of blu-ray. If i was you i wouldnt even buy the system because of it.

what data. all that would do is seggregate the majotity of the userbase.. mega cd..?? ps.. $50 for the unit with a very large collection of films is a blody good deal.. $15 for a hd film.. rv4n hd box sets are dirt cheap.. this is the best way to get hd on ur new tv at a good price.. the prices in the uk is still silly for the hd dvd add on..

why didn't MS just keep HD-DV D around for data purposes?

This is like a crhonicle of an announced dead: we all were seening this comming. I own a 360, yet between HD-DVD and Bluray, there's no question about the higher qualities of the latter. This fight goes for Sony and with all merits

@kingborno. Yep. Both next gen systems are done. how do you think they keep the price down when they come out??? Yes they take a lose, but it's not as bad. Blu-Ray is the new drive the next gen x box will use. That is a give in. I know more than you. You are just a kid. All system makers start work on next gen after they put a system. The PS2 was in the works for a long time. 2 years after the PS1 came out they started work on it. And yes. There still is not a game out that even uses half a Blu-Ray disk. Look at Bioshock. That is the best looking game, well to some of us. It's on a DVD. They still could have made the game longer. (I'm happy they did not) You can put alot of info on a DVD. Dude, you could put a PS3 game on a DVD. They just use Blu-ray so that the loading time wont take so long. They dont compress files. compress files would take more time to load. But hay 50 bucks for a Hd drive will make heads trun. It almost makes me want to buy one.

Wingnut99 why are you still here? You are the same person telling me that both next gen systems are already done. This was before the format war was over. You seem to have answered everyones questions about it. So what drive does this new xbox use? You dont even have to answer because you are just going to ramble. Please do everyone a favor and just quit rambling on. You know nothing.

@ Martin_G_N DVD isn't last gen

If I see an HD-DVD add-on for $50 at the stores,I'm all over it!

i remember the makers of dead or alive 4 complaining just before the game came out about disk space for the game.Which made them look like idiots when the massive Oblivion came out and made theyre game look like pacman.

@ kalepikona.. why do u have the time to write all this long rambly **** ?

to the man saying xbox cant fit it on a disc. xbox is dual layer which is nearer 10 gb and it hasnt really limited games so far. Oblivion was 4.7 gb and that game is packed!

Blu-Ray is not really new stuff people. The only thing new here is the beam off light hitting the disk. It's still mpeg 2. Same thing used on DVD's. Also, DVD's can stream up to 12 MB a sec. Blue Ray can stream 12-19 MB a sec. It's not a big jump. Plus If you have a Tv that is 50 plus, Then Blu-Ray will shin where as DVD's start to look bad. I did some good reading on the net, A comp wanted to see if people could tell wha twas Blu, what was HD, and what was DVD. They did this with a Sony 40 TV. No one could tell what was Blu, HD or DVD. Now when they played movies on a tv that was 60. They could tell. But they did not know what was HD or Blu. Now HD did use newer tech. But the drive had a mod. Now I dont know who is going to buy the add on Hd drive. For 50 bucks it's not bad really. But There is a Blu-Ray add on coming soon. it's only $99.99.

I could have to you this was gonna happen from the start. The only way that HD DVD ever had a chance was if microsoft made the hd dvd player standard in all xbox 360 from the start like sony did with it's blu ray in PS3. Now im not going to get into which format has the better picture b/c i just don't give a damn and they probably have the same quality picture anyway. Does anybody remember the the hdd for ps2 or the eyetoy but of which were dismal failures. The hdd fail b/c of lack of suppurt and support both problems the could have been avoided by making the hdd standard on ps2. Most peripherals are not successful b/c of two things lack of support and the extra price on top of the price of the console. exp.(The pro system is $350 + hd dvd player $179 > ps3 w/ 80GB at $499) Yes i know the hd player is cheaper now but my point is why it failed. Lastly i've got to say it "Chalk one up for PS3".

and eventually consumers will have to pay for the productions costs as companies require more profits for the execs and let go of the people that make them the money.

--Serious -- .... are you serious...you should take your own ranting advice and look up stuff before posting. NTSC / PAL again have nothing to do with HDTV specs, which have nothing do do with Blu-ray. In regards to why are Blu-ray and DVD games the same price...you're 1/2 right...the extra cost of the Blu-ray disk comes directly out of the publishers profit margins. Has nothing to do with MS and everything to do about production costs.

streaming""" yea 20 Million steams a day will happen without any problems, and will be faster than the Blu-Ray in 1080P format?!!! (sarcasim) there are many times I pop in a game take it out try out a few more before I decide which game to play mostly when friends are here. Halo, killzone, burn out, ... games are switched a lot. - some times I only have a hour to play. SO waiting for a game to streem would not be woth it. NOT TO MENTION that ISP want to charge MORE for heavy users!!!!!!!! WHY a few people hog up lots of banwith..... 1080P games and movies will do just that!!!!!!!! and more people are using the internet t faster than bandwith is expanding!!! SO although small games work fine, dvd quality movies are doing okay but it will be a while before we can get rid of phyical media!!! - TO all the BOTS that paid 199.00$$ for a HD- DVD player .... :^) well you get burned with MS and buying ahead of time. You should have knowned that MS is not always the winner,

oh well...not a biggie for me

Downloading isnt the future streaming is. People in general are cheap Most people wont pay £10 for a cd that you could listen to for years Most people wont pay more than £10 for a dvd Most people wont pay£6 to see a movie at cinema Some people use i tunes instead of downloading for free or buying the cd and ripping it to mp3 player.(once downloading itunes style becomes standard everyone will moan that the price per song is too high) Most people i know have moved from downloading movies to streaming online Most people would rather watch a pirate movie(downloaded or bought on market stall)this point shows that a lot of people would rather save money and dont give a toss about picture quality. A lot of people with PC's think because they pay a broadband bill that they should never have to pay for music or movies ever again. People are just treading water now until a high quality streaming service with a big selection becomes available. One monthly entertainment bill to watch what you want when you want isnt that far away.

The difference between the vhs vsdvd war and dvd vs blueray is the reliance on extra equipment. Picture and sound were an obvious improvement on DVD even when used on a standard tv. But heres the thing,for hi def movies you need the BD player(£400 upwards) Then on top of that you need a high def tv(at least £600 for a decent size qaulity brand) Then with hi def tv's you have the decision of plasma or lcd then you have to worry about viewing angles, does it have hdmi/composites does it display in 1080i/p(how many members of the general public know what 1080 means let alone only about 2%of the population can actually notice the difference between that and 720) Getting into HD for the average consumer is expensive and confusing. And im betting a lot of average people bought DVD because they were on futuristic shiny discs and had extras rather than picture quality.People felt like they were getting something truly new. Unlike blueray/hddvd which ONLY offer better picture quality. Are we going to see entire seasons of tv shows on 1 blueray disc for the price of a standard BD movie,of course not! Im outa room damn

50 bucks for a paperweight is too much. anything microsoft touches turns to rrod.

The HD DVD / BLURAY WAR HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH GAME DISK SPACE.. IF BLURAY LOST.. GAMES COMPANIES WOULD STILL MAKE GAMES AS NORMAL. AS THEY ARE WITH DVD 9 ON THE 360.. PEOPLE KEEP ON SOMEHOW BLENDING PARTS OF THE CONSOLE WAR WITH PARTS OF THE MOVIE FORMAT WAR..

BRD still needs to make itself indispensible to succeed. It has a long road ahead to convinvce the consumer outside of the US

Wonder why there are so much backtracking in DMC4??? Could it be because they made it for the x360 first?? They probably ran out of disc space. I wouldn't mind changing disc's on those types of games, but what about games like GTA or other big free-roaming titles?? Remember that DVD is last gen, the last games on the PS2 uses 4,7GB. The x360 is a lot more powerfull and supports much better sound quality and textures, though it can't use it. So what if BD discs are more expensive, if it can give developers more freedom when making games.

HDDVD and BRD were essentially the same, thats why one would ultimately fail. Theres no room for multiple formats in the current consumers pockets. BRD should have won, and did so. They were the only ones that fixed the major flaw that was with all optical discs, the scratching. That was one of the biggest things for consumers, no more unreadable discs, no more repairing or replacing. Im glad the better disc won.

seriously, everyone here, on every side of the argument, needs to shut up. it's not worth arguing about. hd dvd is dead. you can't change that. don't argue about who's fault it is or whether it was better than blu-ray. it's over. get over it.

@ Dryker "I just hope studios learn to properly transfer their movies to Blu Ray so they look as good as movies do on the cheaper HD DVD." You're kidding, right? The picture quality of the two formats has been virtually identical for a long time. It was only a few of the early Blu-ray titles that were lower in quality (due to poor mastering). Are you living in the past? And most people would recognize that Blu-ray was the technically superior of the two formats and therefor has more theoretical potential.

Microsoft, I love the 360 and think it's a fantastic console, great potential, great games, easy GUI, love it. However, PLEASE don't let these rumours about no blu-ray be true. An absolute ridiculous suicide that would make the users pretty darn fed up. Games ARE paramount but for god sake at least keep up with the jones's. People WILL want to buy blu-ray and would LOVE to watch it on their 360 rather than buy a PS3. MS are making a grave mistake thinking that downloading movies is the way ahead. Do they now realise how pathetically slow wireless is??? Not everyone is lucky enough to have ethernet right by their 360, mine is in my living room, PC upstairs. Does anyone else have to put up with wireless guys?

lol

$50 to $65 is a great deal with HD DVD's present library. The writer of this article has no right to call the add-on a failure. It sold something like 350, 000 units, more than stand alone Blu Ray players. As an add-on it was a glaring success. I'm happy the format war is over. I felt and still feel that HD DVD is the better choice, but look at our president... so stranger things have happened. The PS3 saved Blu Ray and, it appears, will save the PS3 and competition in the "Next-Gen" console war, which is good for gamers. I just hope studios learn to properly transfer their movies to Blu Ray so they look as good as movies do on the cheaper HD DVD.

OH and for those that thought to correct me: High-definition television (HDTV) is a digital television broadcasting system with greater resolution than traditional television systems (NTSC, SECAM, PAL). HDTV is digitally broadcast because digital television (DTV) requires less bandwidth if sufficient video compression is used. As you can see the definition of HDTV is digital television. Get your facts straight! And here is a little more knowledge to kick around your heads. DVD are cheaper than Blu Ray disc. Then why is microsoft charging the same price that Sony is? I mean its cheaper to make the game isn't it. they could have cut $10 off of the games price and still made profit? Greed maybe? Where is the 360s greatest hit line with cheaper prices for high selling games? keep thinking about that while shell out more cash for the privilege to play Xbox live.

@ OmegaBob "future proof means exactly what it means and you shouldn't throw around that term as I do believe that Sony tossed around that term when they promised that the PS3 would be BC with all previous models, then took that 'feature' away in certain models." You seem to be one of those people who nitpick the meaning of words in an attempt to win an argument. You are right, "future proof means exactly what it means" but if we are to judge by your invented meaning the word shouldn't even exist since nothing is so future proof as to last forever. Just so you know, that isn't what 'future proof' means. According to wikipedia 'future proofing' describes "the elusive process of trying to anticipate future developments, so that action can be taken to minimise possible negative consequences, and to seize opportunities". As I said, it is a relative concept not an absolute one. It is in wide use within the broader technology industry and is usually used to refer to something that was wisely created with an eye towards future developements. It is in this way that I described the PS3 as being a relatively future proof Blu-ray player since it has all the features (e.g. HDMI 1.3, plenty of raw power) and the ability to upgrade through firmware updates to newer Blu-ray profiles (e.g. 2.0) and player features. If you were at all familiar with HD media discussions you would know that it is completely common to refer to the PS3's Blu-ray capabilities using the term 'future proof'. As to your next statement, "you criticize the other consoles for their lack of features and not being 'future proof" and yet claim that no console is... does that make sense to you? Where did I ever claim that no console is 'future proof'? I do believe the PS3 is more future proof than the Xbox 360. But does that mean I think the 360 is completely inadequate? No, of course not. It is a matter of degree, nothing more. No console is completely 'future proof' or entirely not 'future proof', because the term is a relative concept. You also said, "There will be next gen consoles in approx 3 years, so why complain about other console's features or lack of as ALL will be obsolete very shortly?" Yeah, you're right. Maybe we should all buy our consoles and play our games and movies and just not talk to one another. But then again, you are just as guilty of coming onto this forum and talking about what features you think are good for J6P and about how swapping discs on the 360 is no big deal. So it seems you are more interested in having people you disagree with shut up than any adherence to a general principle. You said, "however, you haven't addressed why J6P needs HDM/720p/1080i/p playback, lossless sound or incomplete formats (1.0, 1.1, 2.0 etc etc etc) and movies that cost (on average) $30 when the same film could be found on DVD for $5" You know, its funny. I remember when DVD came on the scene and there were quite a few similar arguments claiming how unnecessary the dvd format was (especially among the general public). But that didn't stop DVD from taking hold and eventually far surpasing the success of VHS. Now, I am not saying that Blu-ray will definitely have that same degree of success but I am saying that it is just too early to tell. You give a dishonest comparison between the supposed cost of a Blu-ray movie ($30) and a DVD ($5) but I couldn't find a single example of a situation like that on amazon. A far more typical example would be something like Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End which costs $22.95 on Blu-ray (2 disc set with exclusive special features) and $14.99 for single disc DVD or $22.99 for 2 disc DVD set. Hardly the drastic difference in cost that you aluded to. In fact, in this example you actually get the same thing on Blu-ray as you do on the the 2 disc DVD set but you also get much better sound and picture quality and a few exclusive extras. And its actually 4 cents cheaper! And movies like Stargate and Terminator 2 can be had for only $13.95. And what's more important is that Blu-ray will surely go down in cost as more people adopt the format. After all, DVD was similarly priced when it first came on the scene and it came down in price over time. There is no reason not to expect the same thing to happen with Blu-ray. But of course people who want to attack Blu-ray conveniently forget that fact. Your next point: "Basically, J6P like convenience and ease of use. What's easier for the average bloke than to get HD cable feeds and on-demand HD broadcasts" Well, I'll tell you. My parents already have a hard enough time working their Dish Network DVR as it is, but they have long since achieved full comprehension on how to drop a dvd into their player and watch it. Blu-ray is just an extension of that same mechanic--nothing more to learn. BTW, my parents are already familiar with Blu-ray but have never heard of VOD. You try to paint a real pretty picture for downloading HD media but the reality is somewhat different. Your rosy picture also fails to take into consideration some of the other problems downloads have to conquer before becoming the dominant method of owning HD content. Such as the lack of adequate capacity harddrives, bandwith limitations, poor quality, sell and tradeability, content protection, etc. And lastly, you said: "The big IF is IF BD can overtake DVD " Finally something we can agree on. Blu-ray's most significant battle will be with the reigning champ, DVD. And nobody knows how it will turn out. But I don't believe it is anywhere near as bleak as you paint it. Blu-ray doesn't have to have "players for under $100" and movie titles at "$14.99 or less" by tomorrow or meet certain doom, as you imply. It took DVD a while to achieve those price levels and it began to have significant success long before then. Why is it so hard to believe that Blu-ray will be governed by similar market forces and will likewise lower its prices as time goes on? Next year stand-alone Blu-ray players will likely fall to the $200 range and the year after that to the sub $200 price range. And we still don't know how the market will respond now that the confusing format war has ended. All in all Blu-ray success has a pretty favorable outlook. Negative HD DVD/XBOX fanboy FUD not withstanding.

Yes, your right about bandwidth but it does improve the picture and sound. Check wikipedia under "digital TVs" if you need proof. Yes you can stick with analog TVs if you get an digital antenna or digital converter you won't see any improvement in picture or sound though. However HDTVs are digital TVs that will take advantage of the better picture and sound. While an analog TV with a converter looks the same. But the point I'm making is many are going to opt for HDTVs over digital converters. Once someone has gone HD its only logical they want to see all their programs in HD as well. When Tv went color many wanted to get VHS of b&w shows colorized. When Stereo was introduced they wanted audio remastered sound for old shows. A trust me even people that are saying they will stick with DVDs will slowly move up to Blu Ray. As for VOD unless its using a streaming technology like digital cable or netflix does it takes much too long and is space consuming on a HDD especially HD movies. I would rather rent or buy a Blu Ray. My main point is once you spend money on a new HDTV. Your next most likely purchase will be a Blu Ray player. PS3 with game playing capabilities and priced lower than other Blu Ray players will be a solid deal. We already seen a jump in PS3 sales as it out sold the Xbox 360 on both VGChartz and NPD sites this month. And anyone that say they don't see a difference is blind. How can't you see a picture change from 480 lines to 720 or 1080? The latter is twice the resolution. Either your friend got some knock off that isn't a real HD tv maybe a EDTV (Enhanced Definition TV) or he's using coaxial or RCA cables or instead of HDMI or he's got analog cable TV which will braodcast shows in standard definition.

kobebryantyanic: "Are you guys even realizing that making a game on 2 discs cost double?" I counter your statement by saying that BD cost much more to press than one DVD - so it evens out. As for your HD DVD and an MS employee's face comment... I'd like to see the face of the guy that stated that rumble was a useless feature and that every Playstation would feature BC. As you can see, console fanboi-ism can go back and forth. There is no real winner. In the end and IMO, everyone should enjoy their console/s of choice, stop comparing sizes, and just enjoy the games available to them. Seriously. Follow-up: I'm not 100% sure, but wasn't the real reason why HD DVD was not included in the 360 (besides pricing) was because the speed of the drive was too slow for gaming. I could be very wrong in my recollection here.

Are you guys even realizing that making a game on 2 discs cost double? ******************************************************************* Do you realize that 1 Blu-Ray disc cost about as much as 4 DVD's? Because you are putting 4x's the amount of data on a Blu-Ray disc, it takes longer and costs more money. So no matter how you look at it, companies are spending more money to make games on Blu-Ray, they on a regular DVD. I honestly could care less of either format. DVD's are still the dominate format in the market, so I'm stick with that. I can play my already owned DVD movies upscaled to 1080p without paying extra for a Blu-Ray player or their movies.

whoa... if only they done it a bit early... haha TOO LATE!

Ive been with sony all along ... look at my blogs ... its just people who bandwagon and like the claim "uber" status of their console above any rational thoughts... Sony took a risk and finally it pulled through... i guess be happy MS isnt forcing HDDVD on their xbox users, then again the fact that bluray was built in is the major winning factor in this fight because it is calculated into how many units are sold .. something MS didnt do so i guess its just time for sony to triumph after its betamax failure.