Are JRPG girls wussy?

I think that j rpg developers are huge perverts.Some female characters are just funny,silly and way over the top.While I think women should be portrayed in a more realistic view.I know some women giggle and even get offended by the way they portrayed in certain video games.

I dont know about wussy as in many jrpgs girls and guys can conjure up stuff that can knock out godzilla but as far as all the other stuff goes I think jrpg developers are huge perverts.

fubbal

It's not just game developers. I have to say agree with the other guy and say its "culture" *gasp* of these types specific men: geeky/nerdy/needs to laid/can't get real girls. Why? because even in anime there's way too much upskirts/nudity/big breasts/butts showing/etc. Which type of men watches/plays anime/games? once againgeeky/nerdy/needs to laid/can't get real girls. I'm not saying we're all like that but then lets not kid ourselves, gamers usually do fall intogeeky/nerdy/needs to laid/can't get real girls category.

Please try not to turn the topic into some parade of bigotry (or over-zelous defensiveness of Japan either).

Don't paint an entire society of 127 million individual people with the same brush - I think we can agree there are some constructive and unconstructive portrayals of women in Japanese fiction - just like any other country on Earth. You could claim that American TV is more misogynistic, but then watch something like Buffy, Babylon 5, Firefly, Farscape, which are anything but. You could claim Japanese TV is remarkably progressive, but then turn the channel away from Ghost in the Shell, only to find some show about dumb moeblobs.

The question was: "Are JRPG girls wussy?"

And the less catchy, longer version, of that question is: "What do you think about the seeming lack of strong female leads in JRPGs?"

These have already been mentioned in one form or another, but Yuna and Lulu from FFX, and Rosie from Valkyria Chronicles are all strong, good characters that don't fit the stereotype given in the OP. I can't remember fully, but Quistis from FFVIII might be another one, she's certainly less girly than Rinoa or Selphie.evil_angel74

Yeah, Quistis is a good example, although she makes far too few important choices in the game, since it's essentially a game all about Squall.

It's also notable that strong female characters turn up far more often as villains: take Ultimecia from the same game, as an example.

What makes me laugh is how Final Fantasy X and XII had all three of the sterotype female characters. The wussy one, the spunky young one and the over aggresive one. I think if there is a 4th it will be the slutty one, the one with the really big boobs and is normally a bit more mature but everything she says pretty much has to be along the lines of "you want to shag me!"

Evil_Saluki

Although I'm a man, I prefer never to use the term slut, (or if anyone is gonna, at least call men who womanise sluts as well).

Everything you said is true though - Final Fantasy, although it is frequently argued to be more constructive in it's view of women (people always cite Tifa) - basically, they tend to fall into steriotypical catagories like the ones you mentioned - the wussy moeblob, the spunky one, the over-agressive one.

Unfortunatly none of those are neccecarily depictions of strong women.

Some people argue that Terra from VI is strong, but I can remember very little about how she was characterised in the game (probably not a good sign, or perhaps just a relic of having to emphathise with 12px high characters with no spoken dialogue).

What essentially makes a character appear strong is strong conviction (not neccecarily the 'right' convictions, if there are such a thing), willingness to take dire risks with their own life, competency/calmness/descisiveness in drastic situations, and most importantly, making tough choices. A female military officer who is in command of a division of soldiers would be a strong example - a competent commander who wields authority well, has strong convictions, risks her life, and might even fight to patriotically defend her kingdom, (without neccecarily mothering every passing stray!)

So, by those kinds of standards there are very few strong females in Final Fantasy games: Tifa was never exactly placed at the centre of the matrix of decision-making in FFVII - she was peripheral in this respect. Don't get me wrong, I don't expect EVERY female character to be some hyper-competent warrior-philosopher - in real life, this isn't how things work (for either gender!) But where anime has produced some truely admirable powerful women, I can't think of too many in JRPGs.

Frankly, women who can handle themselves, are intellectual and/or show strength of character seem hotter to me than useless whiney helpless damsels anyway - sure, people should not be cast aside just because they are weak, but I can't help but feel more attracted to a capable person.

Here are examples of strong, female, characters from anime/manga/JRPGs:

Major Motoko Kusanagi (counter-terrorism specialist - Ghost in the Shell).

Major General Armstrong (military commander, Fort Briggs - Fullmetal Alchemist)

Nico Robin (archeologist, mercinary, anti-government insurgent - One Piece)

Mitsuru Kirijo (commander of S.E.E.S., chairman of the Kirijo Group - Persona 3)

Major Misato Katsuragi (field commander in the U.N. - Neon Genesis Evangelion)

Clare (professional demon-hunter - Claymore)

They are most of the time, but, in games like Final Fantasy XIII, they can be badasses, as shown by Lightning. (haven't gotten very far.) Also, even though this isn't an RPG, Maria from Knights in the Nightmare is far from stereotypical and is a great character.

I've thought of a couple new examples. I think these are both better examples then any of the others I mentioned as well. Just wasn't really thinking of Fire Emblem.

Titania

Micaiah

I see what you mean. But there are a lot of strong female protanists as well.

Lightning from Final Fantasy XIII

Sheena from Tales of Symphonia.

Terra from Final Fantasy VI

Tifa from Final Fantasy VII

A few examples.

lazyathew

Tear from Tales Of The Abyss is also a very strong female protagonist too!

A few more to add...

Celes from Final Fantasy VI

Rydia and Rosa from Final Fantasy IV

I'm not sure what her actual name is, since you get to name her, but the girl in Secret Of Mana, I also feel, is a strong protagonist.

Also, weren't there any strong female protagonists in the Suikdeon series, specifcally Suikoden I and II?

Yeah I agree, Tear is another good example. And yeahI guess Rydia is as well, though not as much I think, but still.

Yeah I agree, Tear is another good example. And yeahI guess Rydia is as well, though not as much I think, but still.

lazyathew

Maybe not as a kid at first, but she grows into a strong, independent summoner. Then again, maybe as a kid, she was strong enough to go through that tragedy of hers and possibly forgive Cecil and Kain for what they did to her mother.

[QUOTE="lazyathew"]

Yeah I agree, Tear is another good example. And yeahI guess Rydia is as well, though not as much I think, but still.

Metamania

Maybe not as a kid at first, but she grows into a strong, independent summoner. Then again, maybe as a kid, she was strong enough to go through that tragedy of hers and possibly forgive Cecil and Kain for what they did to her mother.

Leeanne from Resonance of Fayt was a strong female character. Who dealt with her issues on her own.
Rena lanford while a healer, used physical combat for her attacks, and was a rather strong character overall.

Take anyone of the 4 heroines from Riviera the Promised LAnd imparticularly Serene

I've thought of a couple new examples. I think these are both better examples then any of the others I mentioned as well. Just wasn't really thinking of Fire Emblem.

Titania

Micaiah

lazyathew

Good ones, especially Titania.

Here is what we have so far - not sure I agree all of them fit:

JRPGs with strong femmes

- Celes (Magitek Knight) (Final Fantasy VI [SNES])

- Mitsuru (Leader/Chairwoman) (Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 3 [PS2])

- Quistis (Instructor/Mercinary) (Final Fantasy VIII [PS1])

- Argilla (Warrior) (Shin Megami Tensei: Digital Devil Saga [PS2])

- Lulu (Black Mage) (Final Fantasy X [PS2])

- Chris Lightfellow (Knight) (Suikoden III [PS2])

- Titania (Paladin) (Fire Emblem: Radient Dawn [GC], Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance [Wii])

- Sheena (Ninja) (Tales of Symphonia [GC])

- Zephie (Resistance Fighter) (Magna Carta II [X360])

- Jessica (Sorceress) (Dragon Quest VIII [PS2])

- Tear (Warrior) (Tales of the Abyss [PS2])

I think Mitsuru, Argilla, Titania, Sheena, Chris Lightfellow, are the best fit, although I havn't played all their games.

Shin Megami Tensei, Tales of ######ia and Fire Emblem have the strongest claim as a series, unless Suikoden has more.

What about the .hack games and Xeno#### games? Can anyone name any from them?

This summarises the problem perfectly:

If you've ever played a JRPG, particularly one from before the early 2000's, chances are you've encountered the Wussy RPG Girl. Meek and doe-eyed, these healer characters double as the love interest and are usually billed as the "heroine," though they seem to possess little power of their own. In fact, it's rare that they do anything more heroic than grappling with low self-esteem or getting kidnapped - which tends to happen a minimum of twice.

Calling characters like Final Fantasy IV's Rosa "heroines" seems a bit of a stretch when compared to the indomitable courage of their male counterparts. But these characters aren't designed to be like modern "heroines," who are just as willing to stare danger in the face as the boys. It's the same character type used in Japan hundreds of years ago, when women were seen as inherently fragile and their "heroism" was defined by their maidenly virtue, not their actual ability. Their chief purpose is just to make you feel sorry for them.Or, to put the problem in the words of Shadow Hearts' Alice: "I-I can't. No ... I ... I can't do anything. I ... KYAAAAAAAA!!"

Considering the time period, it's unsurprising that women in kabuki were portrayed in this manner. But why, 300 years later, are the leading ladies in JRPGs up to more of the same? For someone who's supposed to be saving the world JRPG heroines spend a lot of time taking a beating. Shana in Legend of Dragoon is first kidnapped, then falls prey to a mysterious disease. Alice from Shadow Hearts gets kidnapped multiple times, writhes in agony from a curse and, depending on what ending you get, actually dies. Often the amount of trouble one girl can get herself into in a mere 40 hours hinges on the ludicrous. Colette, Tales of Symphonia's Wussy RPG Girl, systematically loses her ability to eat, feel, and speak; willingly dooms herself to die as a sacrifice for the world; has her soul and memories erased; comes down with a deadly illness that slowly turns her body into crystal; and is kidnapped for use as a dead goddess's vessel, threatening her soul a second time. Unlike heroes, who tend to triumph over adversity through force of will alone, it's the party that saves these heroines every last time.

This might be tolerable if she were also a dynamic character, but Wussy RPG Girls rarely have much going on in the personality department aside from a bland feminine "kindness." Usually this is conveyed hamfistedly, perhaps through a love of flower or incessant reminders to the protagonist to practice proper hygiene. And just in case being weak and boring isn't compelling enough, JRPGs go through the trouble of making the her emotionally pathetic, too. Sometimes she was tortured in her childhood, like Yulie from Wild Arms 4 or Atoli from the .//hack series. And she frequently suffers from low self-esteem, fretting that she's a "burden" on the party or blaming herself for events that are beyond her control.

Of course, just about everything is beyond her control. She exists in order to be pitied, and to give her power over her destiny would defeat her entire purpose. Just like kabuki's Princess Type, the only time she behaves heroically is in the form of pity-inducing self-sacrifice, such as when Eternal Sonata's Polka nonsensically chucks herself off a cliff to save her friends. And while, as in Lunar: Silver Star Story Complete, she often turns out to be some powerful goddess or angel, she almost never gets to use that power for herself. Instead, the villain kidnaps her, using her as a battery for some sort of nefarious plan, prompting the hero to rescue her yet again and take her back to a peaceful life in the village. Where's the heroism in that? Even when the lady becomes a goddess, she still can't save herself.

I don't mean they need to deck their male co-stars in the face once per hour of game time, a la Lightning of Final Fantasy XIII. While an immense improvement over the Wussy RPG Girl, Lightning is really an example of the same principle taken to the other extreme. In the place of constant kidnappings, the game pounds her toughness into players' heads by having her perform random acts of aggression. She's written as far more overbearingly macho than the majority of male protagonists and, just like the Wussy RPG Girl's nubile frailty, her toughness is so exaggerated that it's sometimes hard to take her seriously. Can you imagine a Final Fantasy VII with Cloud constantly sucker-punching Barret?

Final Fantasy XIII conspicuously avoided giving Lightning even slightly feminine traits, perhaps for fear they would still carry that ancient connotation of weakness. But it's definitely possible for a heroine to be girly - and, yes, even a bit vulnerable - without making her a cream puff.

[QUOTE="Evil_Saluki"]

Japs

QuistisTrepe_

The term is Japanese.

I wonder who wrote that essay you copypaste.

Failtastic!

Starshine_M2A2

Grow up, and try harder.

I wonder who wrote that essay you copypaste.

Kuroda99

[QUOTE="Starshine_M2A2"]

Failtastic!

Lucianu

Grow up, and try harder.

Don't really need to try too hard with your posts really but whatever;

Accept the mystery!

This summarises the problem perfectly:

If you've ever played a JRPG, particularly one from before the early 2000's, chances are you've encountered the Wussy RPG Girl. Meek and doe-eyed, these healer characters double as the love interest and are usually billed as the "heroine," though they seem to possess little power of their own. In fact, it's rare that they do anything more heroic than grappling with low self-esteem or getting kidnapped - which tends to happen a minimum of twice.

Calling characters like Final Fantasy IV's Rosa "heroines" seems a bit of a stretch when compared to the indomitable courage of their male counterparts. But these characters aren't designed to be like modern "heroines," who are just as willing to stare danger in the face as the boys. It's the same character type used in Japan hundreds of years ago, when women were seen as inherently fragile and their "heroism" was defined by their maidenly virtue, not their actual ability. Their chief purpose is just to make you feel sorry for them.Or, to put the problem in the words of Shadow Hearts' Alice: "I-I can't. No ... I ... I can't do anything. I ... KYAAAAAAAA!!"

Considering the time period, it's unsurprising that women in kabuki were portrayed in this manner. But why, 300 years later, are the leading ladies in JRPGs up to more of the same? For someone who's supposed to be saving the world JRPG heroines spend a lot of time taking a beating. Shana in Legend of Dragoon is first kidnapped, then falls prey to a mysterious disease. Alice from Shadow Hearts gets kidnapped multiple times, writhes in agony from a curse and, depending on what ending you get, actually dies. Often the amount of trouble one girl can get herself into in a mere 40 hours hinges on the ludicrous. Colette, Tales of Symphonia's Wussy RPG Girl, systematically loses her ability to eat, feel, and speak; willingly dooms herself to die as a sacrifice for the world; has her soul and memories erased; comes down with a deadly illness that slowly turns her body into crystal; and is kidnapped for use as a dead goddess's vessel, threatening her soul a second time. Unlike heroes, who tend to triumph over adversity through force of will alone, it's the party that saves these heroines every last time.

This might be tolerable if she were also a dynamic character, but Wussy RPG Girls rarely have much going on in the personality department aside from a bland feminine "kindness." Usually this is conveyed hamfistedly, perhaps through a love of flower or incessant reminders to the protagonist to practice proper hygiene. And just in case being weak and boring isn't compelling enough, JRPGs go through the trouble of making the her emotionally pathetic, too. Sometimes she was tortured in her childhood, like Yulie from Wild Arms 4 or Atoli from the .//hack series. And she frequently suffers from low self-esteem, fretting that she's a "burden" on the party or blaming herself for events that are beyond her control.

Of course, just about everything is beyond her control. She exists in order to be pitied, and to give her power over her destiny would defeat her entire purpose. Just like kabuki's Princess Type, the only time she behaves heroically is in the form of pity-inducing self-sacrifice, such as when Eternal Sonata's Polka nonsensically chucks herself off a cliff to save her friends. And while, as in Lunar: Silver Star Story Complete, she often turns out to be some powerful goddess or angel, she almost never gets to use that power for herself. Instead, the villain kidnaps her, using her as a battery for some sort of nefarious plan, prompting the hero to rescue her yet again and take her back to a peaceful life in the village. Where's the heroism in that? Even when the lady becomes a goddess, she still can't save herself.

I don't mean they need to deck their male co-stars in the face once per hour of game time, a la Lightning of Final Fantasy XIII. While an immense improvement over the Wussy RPG Girl, Lightning is really an example of the same principle taken to the other extreme. In the place of constant kidnappings, the game pounds her toughness into players' heads by having her perform random acts of aggression. She's written as far more overbearingly macho than the majority of male protagonists and, just like the Wussy RPG Girl's nubile frailty, her toughness is so exaggerated that it's sometimes hard to take her seriously. Can you imagine a Final Fantasy VII with Cloud constantly sucker-punching Barret?

Final Fantasy XIII conspicuously avoided giving Lightning even slightly feminine traits, perhaps for fear they would still carry that ancient connotation of weakness. But it's definitely possible for a heroine to be girly - and, yes, even a bit vulnerable - without making her a cream puff.

Shell_Kracker

Summary?!! Summary is supposed to be short!

Don't really need to try too hard with your posts really but whatever;

Accept the mystery!

Starshine_M2A2

What's wrong with my posts.