Do modern J-RPGs lack the charm and inspiration that the classic J-RPGs had?

As a huge RPG fan I've been playing RPGs since the SNES days. However, I kind of sense that the modern RPGs that came out during the post-FFVII era has been losing some of the charm and inspiration that the past RPGs had.

I've thought of this topic after recently having purchased Tales of Phantasia for the GBA. Even with its old-school flavor I'm experiencing the same charm and inspiration I had from playing RPGs during the 16-bit era. I credit most of this to Tales of Phantasia's shockingly mature storyline and depth in the characters. This is the first in the Tales' series and as a RPG`er who played all of the Tales` games (excluding the Japanese-only versions) I have to say that Tales of Phantasia is still the best.

Tales of Symphonia, Legendia, and Abyss seemed to lack the depth in Phantasia's story, and characters. Also, those recent iterations didn't quite capture the same inspirational vibe that comes from the first of the series. All the RPG cliche and conventions don't feel as redundant in Phantasia because something about playing the original feels fresh and inspired. The first time is forgiveable since it was the beginning of it all, but using the ideas over and over again is the reason why that charm and inspiration isn't there anymore.

This is just one example of a RPG series where the original is still the best. Likewise, I also feel that FFVI is still the best in the FF series, and the first Wild Arms is the best one. Also, the same excitement from playing FVII for the first time wasn't there when FFX came out.

I guess my point in this post is that as graphics and technology becomes more advanced, I hope the developers don't get lost in all that technology and still retain the same inspiration they had like when they created an RPG for the first time. I guess something about having limited graphics such as the 16-bit era may have forced developers to focus more on the story and characters rather than pushing the technology. It was the story and characters that was the selling point...now it seems like it's the other way around where graphics and flashier CG movies are the selling point. I think that's probably the biggest reason why modern RPGs don't carry the special aura that the past RPGs had.

With all that technology, most of the modern RPGs feel too technical rather than a inspired story. But there's some hope. That's why I'm excited about the DS remakes. Also, Eternal Sonata seems like a step in the right direction in terms of being more story and character focused rather than about fancy polygons. And Dragon Quest will always be traditional, which is always a good thing.

FFXIII might be the most anticipated J-RPG at the moment...but something tells me inside that it will be more of the same and will still fail to capture the same inspiration that I felt when I played Chrono Trigger or FFVI for the first time.

It's really nothing more than a gameplay issue. If more JRPGs would take a cue from Grandia and accept the fact that "press X until everything's dead" (otherwise known as the Suikoden/Dragon Quest formula) is no longer viable (and never really was), we'd be better off because we'd have a bunch of games with excellent battle systems all of the sudden.

We also need more JRPGs in general. You can take all three systems and throw them together, it doesn't matter, the upcoming list is anemic even by one console's standards.

It's really nothing more than a gameplay issue. If more JRPGs would take a cue from Grandia and accept the fact that "press X until everything's dead" (otherwise known as the Suikoden/Dragon Quest formula) is no longer viable (and never really was), we'd be better off because we'd have a bunch of games with excellent battle systems all of the sudden.DarkCatalyst

Great post man. Unfortunately, I don't feel like writing much at the moment, but I'll say I do agree with you and have thought the exact same things many times about RPG's these days. However, my timeline goes more towards the post PS1 days, instead of post 16-bit.

Really, ever since the PS2 hit the scene, RPG's just haven't been the same for me as they were before then. Some really great ones have come along, but I don't hold any of them on the same level as games like Xenogears, FF7 &8, Chrono Cross, Vagrant Story, etc. Even strategy RPG's like Ogre Battle 64 and FF Tactics blow away the 10 million ones that came out since then.

Sometimes I wonder if its just the style of games RPG's are. Before graphics were so advanced, you had to use your imagination to IMAGINE how a character was feeling, or what kind of expression they may be making. Because RPG's more than any other game, are like reading a book. They're story-driven, and imagination was what made them special.

Now, since the dawn of PS2 graphics have gotten so much better that not as much is left to the imagination, and on top of that it does seem like story's have gotten weaker with more of a focus on the tech. I always felt though, that Square's PS1 FF games were very heavy on tech, much more so than anyone else in RPG's at the time, yet they still retained the great story development and soul at the same time. Its too bad that balance has kind of been lost.

Its all perspective....When you had you first taste of RPG no dought, like all of us you loved every minute of it, e.g. FF7. But when you play new RPG's expection to feel the same about it and have the same rush, it falls short. There are a lot of great RPG's that have come out recently (somewhat). KOTOR, the Elder scrolls series, ect.

Its all perspective....When you had you first taste of RPG no dought, like all of us you loved every minute of it, e.g. FF7. But when you play new RPG's expection to feel the same about it and have the same rush, it falls short. There are a lot of great RPG's that have come out recently (somewhat). KOTOR, the Elder scrolls series, ect.

Lord-Nerevar

yes but those RPG's you listed are Western RPG's, they're talking about Japanese RPG's

and roughly the time Final Fantasy VIII came out, i became disenfranchised with JRPG's, the last one I played being Skiers Of Arcadia.

I just saw that JRPG's started tending more towards walking you through a story and less on customization, role playing, freedom and things like that so i migrated towards WRPG's and never had to look back

Final Fantasy VII is the best game ever!

Those first two games look like crap btw.

Final Fantasy VII is the best game ever!

Those first two games look like crap btw.

FFDante

You just said that Tales of Phantasia, Chrono Trigger, and Final Fantasy VI is crap....I really hope that's not what you mean.

I think Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy 3(6) on Super Nes spoiled it for me. I also got to play Xenogears and Vangrat Story, Secret of Mana, Vandal Hearts. It just doenst have the magic these days it once had which is sad cause i know there are a few good ones out there. Heck i just bought Odin Sphere and Devil Summoner. I got Dark Cloud and Dragon Quest 8 to. I think Dragon Quest might be somethign when i sit down i will really enjoy. Square Enix kinda killed rpg gamign to me. Level 5 did Dragon Quest 8 which is why i think i will really enjoy it. But yeah i gotta say Chrono Trigger 1995 wow it might not be the best rpg, or the most hardcore, but to this day it ranks right up in my top 3 favorite games of all time next to Street Fighter 2 and StarCraft.

Personally as a long time gamer and maybe getting older, gaming in general these days have lost there charm for me.

[QUOTE="DarkCatalyst"]

It's really nothing more than a gameplay issue. If more JRPGs would take a cue from Grandia and accept the fact that "press X until everything's dead" (otherwise known as the Suikoden/Dragon Quest formula) is no longer viable (and never really was), we'd be better off because we'd have a bunch of games with excellent battle systems all of the sudden.Skylock00

I'd have to lean more toward characters as being the most important element in RPGs, than comes the story. Although the battle system is also important, I think a poor battle system is endurable if the characters and story is intriguing enough.

I do think that Grandia III's battle-system was very fun, but the game I thought fell short because of the shallow story and one-demensional characters. In the case of Valkaryie Profile 2, I thought the battle-system was too much of a chore. It was fun at first, but it was so tormenting just to stick through it for countless hours especially if you're trying to level up just to beat a crazy boss. The underwhelming characters in the game didn't help to enlighten the experience much either.

I always preferred battles to be fast paced, especially when hours of grinding is involved. That's one of the reasons why the battle-system in Skies of Arcadia was the killjoy of what could have been a great RPG experience. Battle systems I thought that hit the right notes was FFXII's system. And as for turn-based battles, I thought FFX had a great pace to it. The story and characters in these games are another issue that's worth discussing.

There's nothing more I would wish for in the perfect RPG one with great characters, a great story, and a great battle-system. But at the end of it all I can still enjoy a RPG if the characters and story are in the right place, even if the battle system is a little shoddy....but not too horrible.

A game should be fun to play, of course, but I think RPGs are more of a story telling medium rather than a video game so the developers should think like writers first. And a writer's duty is to create a memorable story with characters that highlight the experience. Without those two things an RPG is not worth playing, IMO. It just becomes a waste of time if you ask me.

Wether or not a game is charming and inspiring, I think, fully depends on what you have decided is. That is, first convincing impressions is what you then apply to everything else. Very hard to get out of this "box" later,me thinks.

With that said. I can't take games with sugar sweet looking mangamodels/sprites and textures(atelier iris, wild arms 4, ar tonelico etc...) and their nasal voices. Besides, I want rpg's to have lots of places/side roadsto explore and not some forced on linear path you walk from start to end, despite how incredible the story and battlesystem of it may be.

Therefore DQ8 is about the only ps2 game I have ever really lov..liked ;)

Sometimes I wonder if its just the style of games RPG's are. Before graphics were so advanced, you had to use your imagination to IMAGINE how a character was feeling, or what kind of expression they may be making. Because RPG's more than any other game, are like reading a book. They're story-driven, and imagination was what made them special.

Now, since the dawn of PS2 graphics have gotten so much better that not as much is left to the imagination, and on top of that it does seem like story's have gotten weaker with more of a focus on the tech. I always felt though, that Square's PS1 FF games were very heavy on tech, much more so than anyone else in RPG's at the time, yet they still retained the great story development and soul at the same time. Its too bad that balance has kind of been lost.

EdgecrusherAza

This plotline was the story with a lot of older 2D JRPGs too, though, so... maybe it's just the nostalgia goggles you're wearing ASK_Story :P

To be fair I'm playing FFXII right now and this game while still having the lame archetype characters the writing is quite decent/good and the voice acting is also not horrible... Whichin todays JRPGs is a god-sent imo.

[spoiler] still, isn't the "s" in "Marquis" supposed to be silent? wtf Squeenix? [/spoiler]

Sometimes I wonder if its just the style of games RPG's are. Before graphics were so advanced, you had to use your imagination to IMAGINE how a character was feeling, or what kind of expression they may be making. Because RPG's more than any other game, are like reading a book. They're story-driven, and imagination was what made them special.

EdgecrusherAza

Dude, you took the words right out of my....um...keyboard! There was a alot of imagination going on back in those days. And not just RPGs, but games in general. There was a difference between the game box art, and the graphics on your screen. that gap was filled with your imagination which immersed you further in the game.

Although the battle system is also important, I think a poor battle system is endurable if the characters and story is intriguing enough.

...

A game should be fun to play, of course, but I think RPGs are more of a story telling medium rather than a video game so the developers should think like writers first. And a writer's duty is to create a memorable story with characters that highlight the experience. Without those two things an RPG is not worth playing, IMO. It just becomes a waste of time if you ask me.ASK_Story

Story and interesting characters is a nice touch, but not at all what I'm referring to when it comes to character development. I'm talking purely from the basis of statistical/skill/level based character development systems in RPGs. That aspect of the game has become more and more important to me over the years than battle systems, or story/writing.

To me, if an RPG doesn't have an interesting means of making the characters your own through interesting/well thought out development systems, it becomes a bit less interesting to me as an RPG, regardless of the story, writing related to characters, and the battle-system.

I guess my point in this post is that as graphics and technology becomes more advanced, I hope the developers don't get lost in all that technology and still retain the same inspiration they had like when they created an RPG for the first time. I guess something about having limited graphics such as the 16-bit era may have forced developers to focus more on the story and characters rather than pushing the technology. It was the story and characters that was the selling point...now it seems like it's the other way around where graphics and flashier CG movies are the selling point. I think that's probably the biggest reason why modern RPGs don't carry the special aura that the past RPGs had.

ASK_Story

What country have you been playing rpgs in? I've been an rpg fan since the original Phantasy Star, and English localizations are infinitely better nowadays than they used to be. A game's story/characters cannot be judged apart from the quality of the localization (Vagrant Story and FF12 have really strong characters and plots, FF Tactics from the same team is an incoherent mess). In addition to the aforementioned, games like Xenogears, Suikoden 2, Chrono Cross, Shadow Hearts 2, SMT: Nocturne and Disgaea boasted really strong stories/characters.

I've thought of this topic after recently having purchased Tales of Phantasia for the GBA. Even with its old-school flavor I'm experiencing the same charm and inspiration I had from playing RPGs during the 16-bit era.

ASK_Story

Thats probably because it was originally released in 1994 for the SNES in Japan. I think that RPG's in general lost much of their charm after the 32-bit era.

Hmmm.....the JRPG, quite possibly my favorite genre of all-time. ASK_Story I'm going to tell you with what's wrong with them, it's just not that they lost their charm and inspiration....they just flat out suck nowadays.

Seriously JRPG's *for consoles* use nothing but tired and broken formulas.

But how did they get like this?

Only two things:

Money

Casual Fans

First of all I'd like to point out that NOONE should give me "It's nostaligia" BS. This is because I started getting into JRPG's during the PS2 era and then later tried the older ones from the PSone and the SNES and I can honestly say they blow all these new JRPG's out of the water in everyway shape and form even graphics *refering to art-style though*.

What basically happen was that when the PS2 hit casuals fans of the genre pushed and urged companies to "progress" *I swear to God this "natural progression" garbage is killing gaming* This ment make the games in 3D, put it in 3rd person, take out random battles, make it have a real-time combat system, have it open-world, include voice acting, more pretty cutscenese,have cutting edge graphics. Now there's just one problem, many of those things go against the genre itself. How can you have a JRPG open-world? A JRPG is ment to be linear to make you hone your skills on enemies and bosses, solve puzzles, and progress the story, how can you do that in a complete open world setting? 3rd Person, as said before they're linear why would you want the game to be 3rd person to only see one hallway?

As you probably already realized these things made JRPG's much more expensive to create, so many developers saw through it to dumb down the gameplay so it could be more accesible, try to make the game more appealilng so they'd stop making "kooky" characters, stop putting in deep and complicated stories, and try to cover all this up by adding neat little graphics and effects. Eventually all this became too much and now the genre, a once known as the disputible most polished and hardcore respectable gerne back in the 90's is now nothing more then an utter laughing stock in the industry.

Now I don't mean to offend anyone, but the following is what I think of these games.

We have games like Dawn of Mana that had nothing but pretty graphics and purposeless level system *every time you start a new area it erases your stats:|*

We have Kingdom Hearts which is probably the worst 3D JRPG I've ever played, it has a broken combat system with complety useless characters in your party with gameplay that includes nothing but clear one room while trying to find a way out. And I've heard the sequels worse because it's repeititve.........

We have Final Fantasy XII which pretty much is one of the most hated games amongst the series by JRPG fans due to the fact that it's you know......not really a JRPG.

We have Final Fantasy X while had a good story, had a sense that you were only pushing the analog stick up while traveling through the whole game.

We have Star Ocean III, while the game had a cool combat system, it had horrible dungeon design just to have people be "wow'ed" by their size, and the story......no comment.

The only reason the genre became of this is because it listened to the fans screams of "bigger levels, no more random battles, graphics I want the pretty graphics!" I'm sure if JRPG's followed their original formula they would've progress just like any other genre in gaming and retaining their amazing quality. Now here is where I get upset. Most people say it's because "The genre is getting stagnant, there's no variety" Well if you looked at all the games I listed which were the "premier JRPG's" of the PS2 they are all very different. Actually the JRPG genre *especially counting the handheld world* has more variety then ever it's just that fact that most of them *especially the console ones* have one thing in common......they all suck. But why do they suck? Because the gameplay is broken. Why would I want to explore a small area in 3rd person? Why would I run around hacking and slashing the enemy? Why would I want enemies to suddenly appear when I'm exploring? Simple this isn't gameplay for a game of today.........no.........this is gameplay for a 2D GAME!

I've pretty much noticed that almost every game people have listed in here as being "great" is 2D. JRPG's, like fighting, platformers, adventure, shoot-em-ups, beat-em-ups, and puzzle is another fine example of how 3D isn't superior to 2D at all. It prooves that 3D only doesn't do well in some areas *as does 2D* and JRPG's just are one of them. Linear exploration and perfect progression can only be fun and done in 2D, hack-n-slash combat is only fun in 2D, exploring an area with limited space is only fun in 2D, random battles are only fun in 2D *DQVIII was the exception not the rule*. This is what I see with the complaints, just put the genre back where it belongs. I mean when you play a JRPG it's like someone up higher said, it's like you're reading a book or manga, not only the majority want to feel like they're watching an anime not a movie, also it makes the game cheaper to create giving the developer more freedom to add classic characters to the story and complicate and add depth to the battle system and be forced to rely on combat and story and character development for the game instead of pretty graphics and effects to have players be "wow'ed".

I've noticed that lately the genre looks to be getting much better in the future *mostly on the Nintendo DS*, and looking at it, it's because they are putting them back into 2D or 3D overhead, how the genre SHOULD be.

Anyway I've also noticed that there's another certain genre that may follow the same path as of JRPG's. I think some of you will figure it out. :)

Well that's what I think of this matter, anyone agree?

....Dencore

That's pretty depressing. It sounds like you'd rather have the games stay 2d with no evolution beyond that.

The last three JRPG's I enjoyed playing on a major console (i've dabbled with a few breath of fire's and tactics ogre on hand held)were Final Fantasy VII, Skies of Arcadia and Ogre Battle : MOTBQ.

After Final Fantasy VII, I went to VIII and I just got bored of the series... sure it was a new story, new characters and they added 8 different menus but i felt that I was pretty much playing the same game from the NES, SNES and PS1 days just with new visuals.

Skies Of Arcadia wasn't the flashiest JRPG but I enjoyed its simplicity along with the air ship battles. The battles in the sky made it different enough to where i really enjoyed the game.

and Ogre Battle may have been what did me in with JRPG's... the freedom, the choices, the customization. I found that I really liked those aspects and the only other place i could find that much of those things is in WRPGs...

so i got into that genre and I pretty much enjoy every single WRPG, they all take steps in making AI, Freedom, Choices and customization something new and i like how they continue to press on in those directions... i couldn't imagine saying something along the lines of "the new WRPG's just don't cut it, they need to stick to turn based, 3rd person isometric games to be successful"

[QUOTE="Dencore"] ....smerlus

That's pretty depressing. It sounds like you'd rather have the games stay 2d with no evolution beyond that.

The last three JRPG's I enjoyed playing on a major console (i've dabbled with a few breath of fire's and tactics ogre on hand held)were Final Fantasy VII, Skies of Arcadia and Ogre Battle : MOTBQ.

After Final Fantasy VII, I went to VIII and I just got bored of the series... sure it was a new story, new characters and they added 8 different menus but i felt that I was pretty much playing the same game from the NES, SNES and PS1 days just with new visuals.

Skies Of Arcadia wasn't the flashiest JRPG but I enjoyed its simplicity along with the air ship battles. The battles in the sky made it different enough to where i really enjoyed the game.

and Ogre Battle may have been what did me in with JRPG's... the freedom, the choices, the customization. I found that I really liked those aspects and the only other place i could find that much of those things is in WRPGs...

so i got into that genre and I pretty much enjoy every single WRPG, they all take steps in making AI, Freedom, Choices and customization something new and i like how they continue to press on in those directions... i couldn't imagine saying something along the lines of "the new WRPG's just don't cut it, they need to stick to turn based, 3rd person isometric games to be successful"

Well, there IS a lot of moaning going on about the fact that most new WRPGs focus more and more on action.

[QUOTE="smerlus"]

[QUOTE="Dencore"] ....nopalversion

That's pretty depressing. It sounds like you'd rather have the games stay 2d with no evolution beyond that.

The last three JRPG's I enjoyed playing on a major console (i've dabbled with a few breath of fire's and tactics ogre on hand held)were Final Fantasy VII, Skies of Arcadia and Ogre Battle : MOTBQ.

After Final Fantasy VII, I went to VIII and I just got bored of the series... sure it was a new story, new characters and they added 8 different menus but i felt that I was pretty much playing the same game from the NES, SNES and PS1 days just with new visuals.

Skies Of Arcadia wasn't the flashiest JRPG but I enjoyed its simplicity along with the air ship battles. The battles in the sky made it different enough to where i really enjoyed the game.

and Ogre Battle may have been what did me in with JRPG's... the freedom, the choices, the customization. I found that I really liked those aspects and the only other place i could find that much of those things is in WRPGs...

so i got into that genre and I pretty much enjoy every single WRPG, they all take steps in making AI, Freedom, Choices and customization something new and i like how they continue to press on in those directions... i couldn't imagine saying something along the lines of "the new WRPG's just don't cut it, they need to stick to turn based, 3rd person isometric games to be successful"

Well, there IS a lot of moaning going on about the fact that most new WRPGs focus more and more on action.

I see it all as steps inevolutionary progress... sure games like Morrowind and Oblivion seem like steaps in the wrong direction because combat is either confusing or repeatitive... but I'd rather have them try something new and it not work than stay with a menu driven turn based system and random battles or the tried and true isometric system

Sure, as long as that evolution is proven to lead the genre to a better place. Still, there are other areas that need to be improved on. Is an FPS-styled game with RPG elements really an RPG? I'm not sure. This all smacks too much like the death of the pure adventure game.nopalversion

I've seen various stages of the FPS/RPG hybrids... Oblivion (if you want to call that FPS), Vampires, Deus Ex, System Shock, Even STALKER...

some of them i'd consider first and foremost RPGS, the others... well they're in that grey area

[QUOTE="Dencore"] ....smerlus

That's pretty depressing. It sounds like you'd rather have the games stay 2d with no evolution beyond that.

The last three JRPG's I enjoyed playing on a major console (i've dabbled with a few breath of fire's and tactics ogre on hand held)were Final Fantasy VII, Skies of Arcadia and Ogre Battle : MOTBQ.

After Final Fantasy VII, I went to VIII and I just got bored of the series... sure it was a new story, new characters and they added 8 different menus but i felt that I was pretty much playing the same game from the NES, SNES and PS1 days just with new visuals.

Skies Of Arcadia wasn't the flashiest JRPG but I enjoyed its simplicity along with the air ship battles. The battles in the sky made it different enough to where i really enjoyed the game.

and Ogre Battle may have been what did me in with JRPG's... the freedom, the choices, the customization. I found that I really liked those aspects and the only other place i could find that much of those things is in WRPGs...

so i got into that genre and I pretty much enjoy every single WRPG, they all take steps in making AI, Freedom, Choices and customization something new and i like how they continue to press on in those directions... i couldn't imagine saying something along the lines of "the new WRPG's just don't cut it, they need to stick to turn based, 3rd person isometric games to be successful"

I agree with the TC. I'm playing Final Fantasy V in my DS and I find it more entertaining and refreshing than playing FF XII in my PS2. That doesn't mean I dislike current titles like Nocturne and Odin's Sphere. There's still a lot of quality JRPGs coming soon.

I still buy and enjoy JRPGS. I hope the upcoming games recapture the "magic" of the RPGs of old.

[QUOTE="Dencore"] ....smerlus

That's pretty depressing. It sounds like you'd rather have the games stay 2d with no evolution beyond that.

The last three JRPG's I enjoyed playing on a major console (i've dabbled with a few breath of fire's and tactics ogre on hand held)were Final Fantasy VII, Skies of Arcadia and Ogre Battle : MOTBQ.

After Final Fantasy VII, I went to VIII and I just got bored of the series... sure it was a new story, new characters and they added 8 different menus but i felt that I was pretty much playing the same game from the NES, SNES and PS1 days just with new visuals.

Skies Of Arcadia wasn't the flashiest JRPG but I enjoyed its simplicity along with the air ship battles. The battles in the sky made it different enough to where i really enjoyed the game.

and Ogre Battle may have been what did me in with JRPG's... the freedom, the choices, the customization. I found that I really liked those aspects and the only other place i could find that much of those things is in WRPGs...

so i got into that genre and I pretty much enjoy every single WRPG, they all take steps in making AI, Freedom, Choices and customization something new and i like how they continue to press on in those directions... i couldn't imagine saying something along the lines of "the new WRPG's just don't cut it, they need to stick to turn based, 3rd person isometric games to be successful"

Hmm that's pretty depressing, it seems like instead of having people who like the genre enjoy it, you'd rather completly change it so it appeals to you. What you just listed is NOT a JRPG, that is a WRPG if you don't like it then fine don't play the genre it IS a niche genre after all and isn't for everybody. JRPG can evolve and have been evolving just like every other genre. Thinking that WRPG's are supeior to JRPG's or the other way around is completly ridiculous. I mean JRPG's focus on receiving a more complex and skillful combat, better level grinding systems, and stories *arguable* which JRPG's are better then WRPG's at, while WRPG's focus more on exploration, custmozing, and shaping the world around you. Neither is superior to the other they're just two completly different gernes that only share the same last three letters of their names. Why don't JRPG's offer your more choices in the world your in? Well why doesn't Super Mario Galaxy offer you a combo system with taking out enemies? Why doesn't Street Fighter offer a First Person mode? Simple because that would change the gerne. Reading your last paragraph it seems to me you want JRPG's to be WRPG's which is pretty ridiculous considering they're two complety different gernes. Why do I and millions of others prefer JRPG's to WRPG's? Simple we like the gameplay better, I've played many WRPG's and can firmly state I hated all of them but one *that being Deus Ex*. This is because we look for different things into gaming. I don't want a million different choices or options, I just want to focus on a single plot. I don't want a level system crafted around my exploration, but when I combat enemies. I want a deep and complex combat system solely focus for taking out a vast variety of enemies that I can master, and not focused on long breaches of stanima. Changing the genre into these things aren't evolving the genre at all, it's just changing it. Giving my main character the choice to be an archer or a warlock isn't pushing the genre, but adding a fast and more indepth chain combo attack system is. Again why would you change something that people love in favor of something that people dislike? It makes no sense. It's called opinion and if you don't like the genre simply don't play it, it's not that hard *not an attack on you*. But for some reason that is something many gamers don't understand that.

As for the 2D evolution that is because it is where this gerne belongs, don't get me wrong their are good 3D ones, but 2D is just where this genre belongs much like most genres in gaming, I seriously don't understand why on Earth people think 3D is "evolution" because all it is is just changing perspective. Gaming has prooven countless amount of times with games like Castlevania, Street Fighter, Odin Sphere, Beat-em-ups in general, Adventure games that 2D is very much needed. Why would putting it into 2D "stop the gerne from evolving"? Don't you find it odd that now the genre is innovativing more so then every before and finally returning to quality on the DS and PSP with the majority of the games being in 2D? I mean the genre was in 3D for years and we received little to now evolution, but then it switched focus back to 2D and now the genre is innovating now more then ever before *adding RTS elements, improved combat systems, more focus on strategy*. So what does that tell you? I don't know why but for some reason gamers *mainly Western gamers* find 2D "inferior" to 3D. Which is just plain ridiculous.

2D=Combat, Speed, Mobility, Draw Distance, Action Switching, Accuracy

3D=Exploration, Interactivity, and Immersion

They are both offer different choices and options and are more suitable for different genres. And JRPG's are more suited for 2D and have been proved to be espeacially recently. So what's wrong with that?

I see it all as steps inevolutionary progress... sure games like Morrowind and Oblivion seem like steaps in the wrong direction because combat is either confusing or repeatitive... but I'd rather have them try something new and it not work than stay with a menu driven turn based system and random battles or the tried and true isometric system

smerlus

Why do people think this? Around 80% of the JRPG's out now are action RPG's. And many are experimenting with the RTS and Strategy Genres *especially on the DS*. Also most JRPG's don't even have random battles. They're constantly changing and innovating just like any other genre out there, so I don't see why people think this.

I agree with the TC. I'm playing Final Fantasy V in my DS and I find it more entertaining and refreshing than playing FF XII in my PS2. That doesn't mean I dislike current titles like Nocturne and Odin's Sphere. There's still a lot of quality JRPGs coming soon.

I still buy and enjoy JRPGS. I hope the upcoming games recapture the "magic" of the RPGs of old.

fierro316

IDK about the ones on consoles, they seem to follow this broken path of "wowing" the crowd with their tech. However the DS looks like to be rising the genre again with it experimenting and many new killer games are coming out such as DQXI, ASH, and IAWW.

We have Kingdom Hearts which is probably the worst 3D JRPG I've ever played, it has a broken combat system with complety useless characters in your party with gameplay that includes nothing but clear one room while trying to find a way out. And I've heard the sequels worse because it's repeititve.........

Dencore

I agree...Its games like that. That give JRPGs a bad name. A game which main selling point is seeing your favorite FF character and Disney ones. Funny I think...People praise Noruma like a god...Yet all he really ever done was design characters, and his two project...Pretty much nothing but fanservice(FFAC and Kingdom Hearts)

Myself...I can see SquareEnix being the death of the JRPG in NA/Europe. They pretty much just keep flooding the market with ports, remakes, and just crap in general. They are what EA is to sports games...Except probably worse since they lack restriant.

Dencore

I know you're the "Save the 2d"spokesperson on the site but some of the things you said were funny.

as for me wanting JRPG's to become WRPG's, I frankly don't care if they turn into text based adventures, but putting them back into 2d, while making some people feel nostalgic, will just further to stagnant the genre.As for becoming more like the western rpgs... western devs are what created the RPG genre in the first place, sure the JRPG versions might have taken the lead with stories on console, however now that consoles are able to have PC quality games on them, people are beginning to see that engaging stories aren't just in JRPG's anymore. as for saying which one is superior, you're the one that assumed i said that. i simply stated which i prefer.

so really i don't see why we need the W & J prefix if the game is good. there are things from either side that devs can use... it's not like we see Wfighting games and Jfighting games or Wplatformers and Jplatformers

you're right, the difference of picking Warlock or Archer isn't anything new... but when you get into games like Mass Effect and Neverwinter Nights 2 that will/dooffer a seamless story catered to this simple choice, that is evolution. no longer are you just recognized as the same character no matter what profession you choose.

and as for not playing a genre if i don't like it... you don't have to worry about that, I gave up on the genre long ago. It's just funny to see some people complain about the all the things they hate in JRPG's and totally ignore the fact that there are Western RPG's out there that offer stories, choices, visuals, and settings other than D&D...

[QUOTE="Dencore"]

We have Kingdom Hearts which is probably the worst 3D JRPG I've ever played, it has a broken combat system with complety useless characters in your party with gameplay that includes nothing but clear one room while trying to find a way out. And I've heard the sequels worse because it's repeititve.........

Acenso

I agree...Its games like that. That give JRPGs a bad name. A game which main selling point is seeing your favorite FF character and Disney ones. Funny I think...People praise Noruma like a god...Yet all he really ever done was design characters, and his two project...Pretty much nothing but fanservice(FFAC and Kingdom Hearts)

Myself...I can see SquareEnix being the death of the JRPG in NA/Europe. They pretty much just keep flooding the market with ports, remakes, and just crap in general. They are what EA is to sports games...Except probably worse since they lack restriant.

Agreed this genre was one of the most finest and arguably hands down the best genre for console gaming and even gaming in general, now it's just a laughing stock. However with the DS it looks like there is hope. However when you look at it, it isn't JRPG's that lost their quality, but Japanese games in general. I mean Japan went from a country that was hailed the God country of video games, to an utter ripp. This was because *even though most don't know this* Japan went through a HUGE game recession, it could've almost been called a crash. I think developers took this whole presentation route because it was the only way their games would sell. This only made the gaming industry in Japan worse. See the things that caused the recession where the following

Expensive Hardware/Software *Both the PSone, PS2, and Saturn along with their games were much more expensive in Japan then in America.

Many genres were flatout killed for what was "hot" in the market, thus having other genres like platforming and side-scorllers die and JRPG's and Fighting games be dumbed down for mass market.

High Development Costs

Alienating casuals since gaming became so complex

Little Variety since most games tended to play the same and very few high produced gernes were left

......Wait doesn't this all sound a little familar?

Anyway as we know the end of the story the DS came out and gaming in Japan has never been bigger *they actually rival the U.S. in software sales*. And now Japan is once again slowly being known as the God send they once were.

Looking at you previous posts it seems that you were once an avid JRPG gamer, but now have found to be disapointed with the recent years of just hollow trash and switched your focus to WRPG's yet still hoping for the genre to make a comeback.

I also totally agree with your feeling on Square-Enix, they are certainly bringing death amongst the genre, when people complain about the state of the genre and I ask them what games they played they always almost 10 times out of 10 list games published by this company. Out of the whole PS2 era the only game *though it was amazing* that had any quality was Dragon Quest VIII. Hell the only company that did the genre SOME justice in recent years was Atlus.

I personally feel that this genre is being held back so much of what it has to offer, I mean I'm currently playing Odin Sphere and I'm shocked on how much skill and tactics I have to use the game, it's constant trial and error until I get it right. Which is just what this genre needs to be. :)

I gave up on the genre long ago.

smerlus

And yet, you still claim to be an expert on JRPGs. Is there any particular reason you can't grasp the sickening hypocrisy, here? You "gave up" on the genre a long time ago, and you still think you have something to say about it? How? Second-hand knowledge?

Anyway, just wanted to point that out, because it means nobody should ever listen to your "analysis" of a genre you ignore. It's called common sense. I don't run around, invading topics about flight sims, because I have absolutely nothing to say; I don't play them. Beyond that, I do agree with your stance that returning to 2D wouldn't be a good move, and essentially would be a de-evolution. I think that is common sense as well, but I wish you wouldn't pretend to know everything about a genre you even ADMIT you don't play.

As for my part, I think the only reason JRPGs lack any of the "charm" from yesteryear is simply because of nostalgia. If you look at all those old games from our past, all the ones we loved have "charm." It seems to be a descriptive term that can only apply to games in our past, for whatever reason. As for the current state of JRPGs, they continue to bring us fresh and new on a far more frequent basis than WRPGs, but the problem is, that "fresh and new" isn't always high-quality. There may be a new battle system in just about every JRPG I play, but that doesn't necessarily mean the game is GOOD. In the PS1 days, that's exactly what it meant. Or at least, it seemed that way.

[QUOTE="smerlus"]

I gave up on the genre long ago.

fathoms_basic

And yet, you still claim to be an expert on JRPGs. Is there any particular reason you can't grasp the sickening hypocrisy, here? You "gave up" on the genre a long time ago, and you still think you have something to say about it? How? Second-hand knowledge?

Anyway, just wanted to point that out, because it means nobody should ever listen to your "analysis" of a genre you ignore. It's called common sense. I don't run around, invading topics about flight sims, because I have absolutely nothing to say; I don't play them. Beyond that, I do agree with your stance that returning to 2D wouldn't be a good move, and essentially would be a de-evolution. I think that is common sense as well, but I wish you wouldn't pretend to know everything about a genre you even ADMIT you don't play.

As for my part, I think the only reason JRPGs lack any of the "charm" from yesteryear is simply because of nostalgia. If you look at all those old games from our past, all the ones we loved have "charm." It seems to be a descriptive term that can only apply to games in our past, for whatever reason. As for the current state of JRPGs, they continue to bring us fresh and new on a far more frequent basis than WRPGs, but the problem is, that "fresh and new" isn't always high-quality. There may be a new battle system in just about every JRPG I play, but that doesn't necessarily mean the game is GOOD. In the PS1 days, that's exactly what it meant. Or at least, it seemed that way.

who are you again?

i mean talking about hypocracy...i share the same sentiment as the original poster but not only that the only otherthing i said in this topic is that going 2d seems like a step backward.... you agree with this then tell me not to post in these topics

so not only am i on topic if i share my dislike of the genre as per the title of this topicbut that would make someone that loves the genre as rabidly as you do the troll here because youseem unable to accept andunderstand another person's opinion

also it's funny thatyou agree with the post i wasn't, by your rules,supposed to make?

[QUOTE="Dencore"]

smerlus

I know you're the "Save the 2d"spokesperson on the site but some of the things you said were funny.

as for me wanting JRPG's to become WRPG's, I frankly don't care if they turn into text based adventures, but putting them back into 2d, while making some people feel nostalgic, will just further to stagnant the genre.As for becoming more like the western rpgs... western devs are what created the RPG genre in the first place, sure the JRPG versions might have taken the lead with stories on console, however now that consoles are able to have PC quality games on them, people are beginning to see that engaging stories aren't just in JRPG's anymore. as for saying which one is superior, you're the one that assumed i said that. i simply stated which i prefer.

so really i don't see why we need the W & J prefix if the game is good. there are things from either side that devs can use... it's not like we see Wfighting games and Jfighting games or Wplatformers and Jplatformers

you're right, the difference of picking Warlock or Archer isn't anything new... but when you get into games like Mass Effect and Neverwinter Nights 2 that will/dooffer a seamless story catered to this simple choice, that is evolution. no longer are you just recognized as the same character no matter what profession you choose.

and as for not playing a genre if i don't like it... you don't have to worry about that, I gave up on the genre long ago. It's just funny to see some people complain about the all the things they hate in JRPG's and totally ignore the fact that there are Western RPG's out there that offer stories, choices, visuals, and settings other than D&D...

I'm sorry I must apologize from misunderstanding your statement.

However, I never said that all WRPG's play like D&D, all I said is that they offer more choices and customablity then JRPG's. As for putting it back in 2D it seems that the statement completly flew over your head. I said that the genre worked better in 2D and was progressing fine, however once it made the jump into 3D devs couldn't function with the genre since it's gameplay completly opposed the dimension. And now that most devs made the jump back into 2D it's magically evolving and innovating now more then it ever has which almost every game being unique and different offering a different take of the genre. So what does that tell you? It tells you that the genre belongs in 2D and not 3D not because of "nostaligia", but because that's what the genres core mechanics focus's on it is much much better in 2D that's just the way it is. Idk why on Earth you think that 3D is a must progress for everything because thinking that makes no sense. I mean if something evolves, progresses, contains more depth, and is just overall more fun to play in 2D then 3D then why on Earth would you change it to 3D to make it worse? What because other genres made that step? There's no reason to force the gerne to change if the change is for the worse. And I never said anything about Western and Japanese genres, I call them JRPG's and WRPG's because that's what the genres are called and despite their names they are both radically different from one another. Yes Western RPG's came first, but that doesn't mean that Japanese RPG's should follow them. That's like saying Soul Caliber IV should be more like God Hand since the fighting game genre came from the beat-em-up genre or Castlevania should follow Mario Galaxy because the sidescrolling gerne came from the platforming genre and both must follow the others progression, it just doesn't make any sense. These gernes are different, so they should excel with what they do best. Personally idk why you think I'm the "save the 2D spokesperson" when I only mentioned it to you with one other argument. Personally I prooved my facts by applying these things the genre will be better and is prooven so since the genre has lately been following these tracks and has been greatly improved both critcally, commercially, and most importantly by the fans. So tell me again why would you want to stop that, espeacally to make the genre worse by trying to fit into something it doesn't belong? It just makes now sense.

Note that I'm not saying JRPG's can't work in 3D, 3D offers a new way to expierence the gerne and can only expand on it and further evolve the gerne. I'm just stating that most of the subgernes are prooven better in 2D and the game mechanics are more focused on that. Also note that I'm not saying it has to be 2D as of using sprites, but as the gameplay mechanics such as overhead or sidescrolling. I mean C&C3 and SCII wouldn't work in 3rd or 1st Person so theykeep their working gameplay mechanics and continuingly evolve, so why not JRPG's?

[QUOTE="Acenso"][QUOTE="Dencore"]

We have Kingdom Hearts which is probably the worst 3D JRPG I've ever played, it has a broken combat system with complety useless characters in your party with gameplay that includes nothing but clear one room while trying to find a way out. And I've heard the sequels worse because it's repeititve.........

Dencore

I agree...Its games like that. That give JRPGs a bad name. A game which main selling point is seeing your favorite FF character and Disney ones. Funny I think...People praise Noruma like a god...Yet all he really ever done was design characters, and his two project...Pretty much nothing but fanservice(FFAC and Kingdom Hearts)

Myself...I can see SquareEnix being the death of the JRPG in NA/Europe. They pretty much just keep flooding the market with ports, remakes, and just crap in general. They are what EA is to sports games...Except probably worse since they lack restriant.

We rarely agree on much, but I've always respected your viewpoints, but this time I totally agree. I thought I was the only one that KH, I've never played the sequel, but for some reason the story and the characters seemed so forced in that game. It lacks charisma, and a personality of its own, and often times personality is what separates a good jrpg from a bad one.

We rarely agree on much, but I've always respected your viewpoints, but this time I totally agree. I thought I was the only one that KH, I've never played the sequel, but for some reason the story and the characters seemed so forced in that game. It lacks charisma, and a personality of its own, and often times personality is what separates a good jrpg from a bad one.

HiResDes

I think Kingdom Hearts was an utter mess.

First off the story wasn't deep or engaging at all and didn't even hold interest. And the puzzles weren't even puzzles, but more of just to figure out where you need to go. And the combat system was an utter joke and would only be excusable as a launch window PS1 game.

[QUOTE="HiResDes"]

We rarely agree on much, but I've always respected your viewpoints, but this time I totally agree. I thought I was the only one that KH, I've never played the sequel, but for some reason the story and the characters seemed so forced in that game. It lacks charisma, and a personality of its own, and often times personality is what separates a good jrpg from a bad one.

Dencore

I think Kingdom Hearts was an utter mess.

First off the story wasn't deep or engaging at all and didn't even hold interest. And the puzzles weren't even puzzles, but more of just to figure out where you need to go. And the combat system was an utter joke and would only be excusable as a launch window PS1 game.

The first one didn't hold my interest for long, but the second one was a major improvement even if it had its own flaws.

I'm sorry I must apologize from misunderstanding your statement.

However, I never said that all WRPG's play like D&D, all I said is that they offer more choices and customablity then JRPG's. As for putting it back in 2D it seems that the statement completly flew over your head. I said that the genre worked better in 2D and was progressing fine, however once it made the jump into 3D devs couldn't function with the genre since it's gameplay completly opposed the dimension. And now that most devs made the jump back into 2D it's magically evolving and innovating now more then it ever has which almost every game being unique and different offering a different take of the genre. So what does that tell you? It tells you that the genre belongs in 2D and not 3D not because of "nostaligia", but because that's what the genres core mechanics focus's on it is much much better in 2D that's just the way it is. Idk why on Earth you think that 3D is a must progress for everything because thinking that makes no sense. I mean if something evolves, progresses, contains more depth, and is just overall more fun to play in 2D then 3D then why on Earth would you change it to 3D to make it worse? What because other genres made that step? There's no reason to force the gerne to change if the change is for the worse. And I never said anything about Western and Japanese genres, I call them JRPG's and WRPG's because that's what the genres are called and despite their names they are both radically different from one another. Yes Western RPG's came first, but that doesn't mean that Japanese RPG's should follow them. That's like saying Soul Caliber IV should be more like God Hand since the fighting game genre came from the beat-em-up genre or Castlevania should follow Mario Galaxy because the sidescrolling gerne came from the platforming genre and both must follow the others progression, it just doesn't make any sense. These gernes are different, so they should excel with what they do best. Personally idk why you think I'm the "save the 2D spokesperson" when I only mentioned it to you with one other argument. Personally I prooved my facts by applying these things the genre will be better and is prooven so since the genre has lately been following these tracks and has been greatly improved both critcally, commercially, and most importantly by the fans. So tell me again why would you want to stop that, espeacally to make the genre worse by trying to fit into something it doesn't belong? It just makes now sense.

Note that I'm not saying JRPG's can't work in 3D, 3D offers a new way to expierence the gerne and can only expand on it and further evolve the gerne. I'm just stating that most of the subgernes are prooven better in 2D and the game mechanics are more focused on that. Also note that I'm not saying it has to be 2D as of using sprites, but as the gameplay mechanics such as overhead or sidescrolling. I mean C&C3 and SCII wouldn't work in 3rd or 1st Person so theykeep their working gameplay mechanics and continuingly evolve, so why not JRPG's?

Dencore

you do have a point though... i understand that if a JRPG goes the 3d route but doesn't offer what other titles in 3d offer or take full advantage of3D (graphics, exploration and all that) then really why make the leap? just to look good for casual gamers?

But that's a tough thing to go back on that can only be pulled off on a hand held...imagine if square got their act together and tried to make a 2d game on one of the main systems? they already gave people a taste of 3d, it'll be hard to pull people (at least on this side of the hemisphere) back.

[QUOTE="Dencore"][QUOTE="HiResDes"]

We rarely agree on much, but I've always respected your viewpoints, but this time I totally agree. I thought I was the only one that KH, I've never played the sequel, but for some reason the story and the characters seemed so forced in that game. It lacks charisma, and a personality of its own, and often times personality is what separates a good jrpg from a bad one.

ASK_Story

I think Kingdom Hearts was an utter mess.

First off the story wasn't deep or engaging at all and didn't even hold interest. And the puzzles weren't even puzzles, but more of just to figure out where you need to go. And the combat system was an utter joke and would only be excusable as a launch window PS1 game.

The first one didn't hold my interest for long, but the second one was a major improvement even if it had its own flaws.

Are you kidding me? The second one is much, much worse than the first. I actually kind of enjoyed KH, simply because of my infatuation with FF and Disney characters. But the second one is terrible. Minigames that hurt to play, a game somehow more linear than the first, an uninspired story, and dialogue that hurt to listen to. I didn't even get past the 15 hour mark, and I almost always work my way thru even the worst of games. I even played more of Enchanted Arms!

[QUOTE="smerlus"]

[QUOTE="Dencore"]

Dencore

I know you're the "Save the 2d"spokesperson on the site but some of the things you said were funny.

as for me wanting JRPG's to become WRPG's, I frankly don't care if they turn into text based adventures, but putting them back into 2d, while making some people feel nostalgic, will just further to stagnant the genre.As for becoming more like the western rpgs... western devs are what created the RPG genre in the first place, sure the JRPG versions might have taken the lead with stories on console, however now that consoles are able to have PC quality games on them, people are beginning to see that engaging stories aren't just in JRPG's anymore. as for saying which one is superior, you're the one that assumed i said that. i simply stated which i prefer.

so really i don't see why we need the W & J prefix if the game is good. there are things from either side that devs can use... it's not like we see Wfighting games and Jfighting games or Wplatformers and Jplatformers

you're right, the difference of picking Warlock or Archer isn't anything new... but when you get into games like Mass Effect and Neverwinter Nights 2 that will/dooffer a seamless story catered to this simple choice, that is evolution. no longer are you just recognized as the same character no matter what profession you choose.

and as for not playing a genre if i don't like it... you don't have to worry about that, I gave up on the genre long ago. It's just funny to see some people complain about the all the things they hate in JRPG's and totally ignore the fact that there are Western RPG's out there that offer stories, choices, visuals, and settings other than D&D...

I'm sorry I must apologize from misunderstanding your statement.

However, I never said that all WRPG's play like D&D, all I said is that they offer more choices and customablity then JRPG's. As for putting it back in 2D it seems that the statement completly flew over your head. I said that the genre worked better in 2D and was progressing fine, however once it made the jump into 3D devs couldn't function with the genre since it's gameplay completly opposed the dimension. And now that most devs made the jump back into 2D it's magically evolving and innovating now more then it ever has which almost every game being unique and different offering a different take of the genre. So what does that tell you? It tells you that the genre belongs in 2D and not 3D not because of "nostaligia", but because that's what the genres core mechanics focus's on it is much much better in 2D that's just the way it is. Idk why on Earth you think that 3D is a must progress for everything because thinking that makes no sense. I mean if something evolves, progresses, contains more depth, and is just overall more fun to play in 2D then 3D then why on Earth would you change it to 3D to make it worse? What because other genres made that step? There's no reason to force the gerne to change if the change is for the worse. And I never said anything about Western and Japanese genres, I call them JRPG's and WRPG's because that's what the genres are called and despite their names they are both radically different from one another. Yes Western RPG's came first, but that doesn't mean that Japanese RPG's should follow them. That's like saying Soul Caliber IV should be more like God Hand since the fighting game genre came from the beat-em-up genre or Castlevania should follow Mario Galaxy because the sidescrolling gerne came from the platforming genre and both must follow the others progression, it just doesn't make any sense. These gernes are different, so they should excel with what they do best. Personally idk why you think I'm the "save the 2D spokesperson" when I only mentioned it to you with one other argument. Personally I prooved my facts by applying these things the genre will be better and is prooven so since the genre has lately been following these tracks and has been greatly improved both critcally, commercially, and most importantly by the fans. So tell me again why would you want to stop that, espeacally to make the genre worse by trying to fit into something it doesn't belong? It just makes now sense.

Note that I'm not saying JRPG's can't work in 3D, 3D offers a new way to expierence the gerne and can only expand on it and further evolve the gerne. I'm just stating that most of the subgernes are prooven better in 2D and the game mechanics are more focused on that. Also note that I'm not saying it has to be 2D as of using sprites, but as the gameplay mechanics such as overhead or sidescrolling. I mean C&C3 and SCII wouldn't work in 3rd or 1st Person so theykeep their working gameplay mechanics and continuingly evolve, so why not JRPG's?

Where are all of these innovative 2d RPGs you keep talking about? I'm not seeing anything worth talking about on any system.

you do have a point though... i understand that if a JRPG goes the 3d route but doesn't offer what other titles in 3d offer or take full advantage of3D (graphics, exploration and all that) then really why make the leap? just to look good for casual gamers?

But that's a tough thing to go back on that can only be pulled off on a hand held...imagine if square got their act together and tried to make a 2d game on one of the main systems? they already gave people a taste of 3d, it'll be hard to pull people (at least on this side of the hemisphere) back.

smerlus

Ah finally we agree on something. Here's the thing though most development in Japan is focused on handhelds which are notrious with their 2D popularity. This is why lately we've been seeing a blowout of dozens upon dozens of JRPG's announced for the system and they all look to be of high quality. This is also why the gerne is evolving more so then ever before and is arguably evolving at a faster rate then WRPG's *but I think that's do to the fact that the genre has ALOT of catching up to do* Casuals and hardcore alike actually dislike 3D on a handheld compared to 2D, this is prooven by game sales and the sales of the DS compared to the PSP. As for consoles I definately see your point. However only time can tell. Super Paper Mario *which I don't consider a JRPG but a side-scrolling adventure, but I must use it as a point since most people prefer to call it a JRPG* though 2D *flipping into 3D was more like flipping into Wolfenstien* sold well over a million copies. Odin Sphere has sold around 200,000 copies despite being at the end of a systems life cycle. But still that is a very small accomplishment compared to the mass of 3D. However what makes me have a feeling that gamers would be more acceptent of 3D is the Wii. As you know the market is undergoing yet another huge change, perhaps the biggest since the PSone. See the reason 2D died was mostly due to SONY since they hyped devs to create and gamers to play 3D games. It was the next big wave *and very deserving since it was so new*, however SONY didn't allow many devs to create 2D games, this is a known fact in the industry you can argue if you want but I'm pretty confident since that's what pretty much every dev says that I've talked with. Now to add to that the Wii as we know is going to offer a new take on gaming with while maintaining the complexity offering a simpler and creative way of gaming, basically a new take. And the market is looking for something different in games then physics or high res. textures *not saying those are bad things*. I personally definately think that not only 2D JRPG's but 2D in general can make a comeback with the market change especailly since we already have some 2D million sellers *paper mario, warioware, soon to be brain age*. I'd agree if the market was in favor of the 360 that it would be near impossible to sway casuals from the likes of 3D, but do to the market change it will much easier. But as of right now it is wayyyyyyyyyy to easy to say that the genre will return to console in that form.

Where are all of these innovative 2d RPGs you keep talking about? I'm not seeing anything worth talking about on any system.

CAD-Monkey

Let's see many are including RTS gameplay, strongly evolving the combat system for action JRPG's making the more indepth combo attacks, adding sidescrolling action and even platforming into the formula, expanding on the mass co-op expeirence, adding online gameplay, mixing and meshing subgenres even genres as a whole together, strongly expanding the SRPG subgenre, and the list goes on and on.

Did that help?:)

Also pretty much all of these are on handhelds since they are Japan's platform of choice, and by looking at you collection it seems that you don't own a PSP and most importantly a DS, so there's your problem. The PS2 is much more of a posterchild of the Japanese game recession as of saying "what not to do with games" so I can see why you're having a difficult time finding quality JRPG's there. :)

Are you kidding me? The second one is much, much worse than the first. I actually kind of enjoyed KH, simply because of my infatuation with FF and Disney characters. But the second one is terrible. Minigames that hurt to play, a game somehow more linear than the first, an uninspired story, and dialogue that hurt to listen to. I didn't even get past the 15 hour mark, and I almost always work my way thru even the worst of games. I even played more of Enchanted Arms!

TheCrazed420

Well we all have opinions. But to be honest let me ask you something TheCrazed420 since you played it, how could they possibly make the game worse? No really. I mean I'm not flaming but I can't imagine a more watered down combat system or worse pacing then the original.

[QUOTE="CAD-Monkey"]

Where are all of these innovative 2d RPGs you keep talking about? I'm not seeing anything worth talking about on any system.

Dencore

Let's see many are including RTS gameplay, strongly evolving the combat system for action JRPG's making the more indepth combo attacks, adding sidescrolling action and even platforming into the formula, expanding on the mass co-op expeirence, adding online gameplay, mixing and meshing subgenres even genres as a whole together, strongly expanding the SRPG subgenre, and the list goes on and on.

Did that help?:)

I was looking for actual names of games, not a general description. The best recent and upcoming RPGs are all 3d, but you're welcome to list the 2d ones for me. :)

[QUOTE="Dencore"][QUOTE="CAD-Monkey"]

Where are all of these innovative 2d RPGs you keep talking about? I'm not seeing anything worth talking about on any system.

CAD-Monkey

Let's see many are including RTS gameplay, strongly evolving the combat system for action JRPG's making the more indepth combo attacks, adding sidescrolling action and even platforming into the formula, expanding on the mass co-op expeirence, adding online gameplay, mixing and meshing subgenres even genres as a whole together, strongly expanding the SRPG subgenre, and the list goes on and on.

Did that help?:)

I was looking for actual names of games, not a general description. The best recent and upcoming RPGs are all 3d, but you're welcome to list the 2d ones for me. :)

Well to be honest most of the quality ones are in 2D. *though quality ones are in handheld* But some are It's a Wonderful World, Final Fantasy Tactics Advanced 2, ASH, Lumnious Arc, Etrian Odyessy, Jenne D' Arc, Lost Magic, Heroes of Mana, Contact, Lunar Knights, etc. Note that some of these are already out. :)

As for the 2D evolution that is because it is where this gerne belongs, don't get me wrong their are good 3D ones, but 2D is just where this genre belongs much like most genres in gaming,

To throw this back at you, "Oh, but that's just your opinion! Why do people think this?!"2D for JRPGs and other genres is your preference, but there is no way to objectively state that 2D is better than 3D for anything unless all players have objective criteria for excellence. I disagree that most genres belong in 2D.