Do modern J-RPGs lack the charm and inspiration that the classic J-RPGs had?

To throw this back at you, "Oh, but that's just your opinion! Why do people think this?!"2D for JRPGs and other genres is your preference, but there is no way to objectively state that 2D is better than 3D for anything unless all players have objective criteria for excellence. I disagree that most genres belong in 2D.

Angry_Beaver

If the genre evolves more in 2D, if the 2D games are more explored then the 3D games, if the fans prefer the genre in 2D, if the scores for the 2D games score higher then the 3D games, if the genre is crafted around 2D and is often broken in 3D, I assume it should stay 2D. As for most genres I think that was an overstatment, what I mean to say was that many genres in gaming are better in 2D then 3D such as fighting games, platformers, RTS's, shooters *sidescrollers and shoot-em-ups* and some games are better in 3D then 2D shooters *FPS/TPS*, Action-Adventure, Survival Horror, etc.

I guess that was the point.

I agree everything is about preference but when most people agree that a genre remains higher quality in a form and the genre itself evolves more in a form I tend to believe it's better in that form. Like I said it's all about preference, but the fact that the ratio of bad to good JRPG's are a lot higher in 3D then 2D *going by past reviews, I know how I feel about reviews but I need some type of support* and the genre evolves and changes much more in 2D then 3D is a fact. Also most posters in this thread along with this whole forum agree that the genre lost its charm during the PS2 era or after FFVII, which is when 3D JRPG's started to become the standard. I'm just throwing that out there.

You have a thing for HUGE posts huh?Xalenite

That's a huge post to you? :|

Tales of Symphonia feels fresh and inspired to me, but that's because I never really played JRPGs before I got it.

It's really nothing more than a gameplay issue. If more JRPGs would take a cue from Grandia and accept the fact that "press X until everything's dead" (otherwise known as the Suikoden/Dragon Quest formula) is no longer viable (and never really was), we'd be better off because we'd have a bunch of games with excellent battle systems all of the sudden.

We also need more JRPGs in general. You can take all three systems and throw them together, it doesn't matter, the upcoming list is anemic even by one console's standards.

DarkCatalyst

This is due to the fact that most JRPG's are moving to handhelds. Also most of them were dumb down mostly due to the move to 3D and also a huge part in it was the Japanese game recession, in order for the developers to recieve profit for their multi-million dollar budget games, they needed to have them appeal to a large audience. And as the gaming market shrunk as did their target audience, so they needed to constantly expand the audience simplifying the games to make them more "newbie" friendly. And the result is what you see today.

Yeah I also dont think they were as good as they used to be either, it dosent have that magic or draw for me anymore. Im looking forward to FFXIII and White Knight Story and thats about it in the JRPG department.GodModeEnabled

I have a question for you, do you dislike JRPG's because of the gameplay or because they just aren't as good as they use to be?

[QUOTE="FFDante"]

Final Fantasy VII is the best game ever!

Those first two games look like crap btw.

ASK_Story

You just said that Tales of Phantasia, Chrono Trigger, and Final Fantasy VI is crap....I really hope that's not what you mean.

Agreed, and don't tell me he was also refering to the likes of Chrono Trigger as "crap", because that game is timeless.

Personally as a long time gamer and maybe getting older, gaming in general these days have lost there charm for me.

Sumotaii

Agreed, though IMHO I for one am living through a Golden Age with the Nintendo DS and the PC is still spewing out with continuing legendary franchises such as Half-Life and Starcraft, I can honestly state that consoles are just downright pathetic. I pretty much know why it's happeneing though. I mean the Western Market just generally buys watered down PC type games on consoles and the Japanese publishers now treat consoles as shovelware while focusing on handhelds.

[QUOTE="ASK_Story"]Although the battle system is also important, I think a poor battle system is endurable if the characters and story is intriguing enough.

...

A game should be fun to play, of course, but I think RPGs are more of a story telling medium rather than a video game so the developers should think like writers first. And a writer's duty is to create a memorable story with characters that highlight the experience. Without those two things an RPG is not worth playing, IMO. It just becomes a waste of time if you ask me.Skylock00

Story and interesting characters is a nice touch, but not at all what I'm referring to when it comes to character development. I'm talking purely from the basis of statistical/skill/level based character development systems in RPGs. That aspect of the game has become more and more important to me over the years than battle systems, or story/writing.

To me, if an RPG doesn't have an interesting means of making the characters your own through interesting/well thought out development systems, it becomes a bit less interesting to me as an RPG, regardless of the story, writing related to characters, and the battle-system.

It seems to me that the JRPG genre isn't for you at all. Since story and combat is pretty much the genre itself.

[QUOTE="CAD-Monkey"][QUOTE="Dencore"][QUOTE="CAD-Monkey"]

Where are all of these innovative 2d RPGs you keep talking about? I'm not seeing anything worth talking about on any system.

Dencore

Let's see many are including RTS gameplay, strongly evolving the combat system for action JRPG's making the more indepth combo attacks, adding sidescrolling action and even platforming into the formula, expanding on the mass co-op expeirence, adding online gameplay, mixing and meshing subgenres even genres as a whole together, strongly expanding the SRPG subgenre, and the list goes on and on.

Did that help?:)

I was looking for actual names of games, not a general description. The best recent and upcoming RPGs are all 3d, but you're welcome to list the 2d ones for me. :)

Well to be honest most of the quality ones are in 2D. *though quality ones are in handheld* But some are It's a Wonderful World, Final Fantasy Tactics Advanced 2, ASH, Lumnious Arc, Etrian Odyessy, Jenne D' Arc, Lost Magic, Heroes of Mana, Contact, Lunar Knights, etc. Note that some of these are already out. :)

Well, chances are I won't be playing any of those. While I do have a DS, I just don't have timefor handheld gaming. I just can't seriously look at those games with Mass Effect and Eternal Sonata coming up. Maybe Dragon Quest will pull me in though. Final Fantasy 10 is still my favorite of the series and I find that trying to play FF6 or earlier is just impossible for me. I like great gameplay as much as the next guy, but I'm not 14 any more and quality production with my quality gameplay. To each his own.

I agree everything is about preference but when most people agree that a genre remains higher quality in a form and the genre itself evolves more in a form I tend to believe it's better in that form.Dencore

I just think a good JRPG is harder tomake in 3D, not that the third dimension is to blame. Tell me, explicitly, why 3D JRPGs are disadvantaged. Tell me what suffers and why.

the ratio of good to bad JRPG's are a lot higher in 3D then 2D

If I paid attention to only that statement, I would directly infer that 3D JRPGs are clearly superior. What you said is not what you meant to say.

[QUOTE="Dencore"]I agree everything is about preference but when most people agree that a genre remains higher quality in a form and the genre itself evolves more in a form I tend to believe it's better in that form.Angry_Beaver

I just think a good JRPG is harder tomake in 3D, not that the third dimension is to blame. Tell me, explicitly, why 3D JRPGs are disadvantaged. Tell me what suffers and why.

Because the way the core mechanics are laid out it is much much much harder to make a JRPG in 3D then in 2D. Linear exploration may do fine justice in 2D but not in 3D due to the fact that when you're in 3rd or 1st person you sense the need to explore and JRPG's just don't offer that, not only that but you can definately see your limitations. An example would be like "Oh I can see the bottom of that mountain or I can see that island but I can't go their I must follow this path" or the fact that in a JRPG you often train your party or character in the same areas, yes this flys in 2D but in 3D it's annoying to see the same place over and over again in the 3rd and 1st person perspective. There are random battles in JRPG's and with 3D this is annoying because you want to continue exploring the world and this is sometimes answered by having you see the enemies instead of having them appear, but then the problem lies in you fighting the same enemies over and over. As for combat, I think gaming itself has proved that 3D just can't do combat as fast and as manueverable as 2D with the recent incarnations of Castlevania and 3D fighters. These are just a few examples and as you can read these tend to get very annoying. However these things can't leave because they are needed for a JRPG. Why do we have linear exploration? So we can progress the story and hone the players skills by forcing him to fight certain enemies at a certain time. Why do many have random battles? It's the same why there are save points in Metroid or Resident Evil it builds tension in the game. Why does the combat need to be fast and manueverable? Because it's the best and most fun way by taking out a 30 foot demon king. These are all vital things that define a JRPG and none of them work well in the realm of 3D, so this explains why the downfall in quality because the sheer fact that it is either hard or just flatout impossible to do it. And taking them out will result on just simply changing the genre completely so it isn't even the same genre anymore.

Also it's like many in here said it's better in 2D because you had to imagine what was going on. Playing a JRPG was like reading a visual novel or a manga, putting in cutscenes and voice acting just ruins the experience unless done incredibly well. There's also artstyle most when playing a JRPG don't want to feel like they are playing The Lord of the Rings, but an anime, and 2D does that just well, while 3D and CG just don't really feel like an anime for obvious reasons.

So all in all that pretty much sums it up.

If I paid attention to only that statement, I would directly infer that 3D JRPGs are clearly superior. What you said is not what you meant to say.

Angry_Beaver

Opps sorry I mean bad to good. :oops:

Well, chances are I won't be playing any of those. While I do have a DS, I just don't have timefor handheld gaming. I just can't seriously look at those games with Mass Effect and Eternal Sonata coming up. Maybe Dragon Quest will pull me in though. Final Fantasy 10 is still my favorite of the series and I find that trying to play FF6 or earlier is just impossible for me. I like great gameplay as much as the next guy, but I'm not 14 any more and quality production with my quality gameplay. To each his own.

CAD-Monkey

Okay but you'll be missing some great games. :)

Anyway I agree X was the best in the series. However I think that's due to the fact that X was my first JRPG and was the game that got me into the genre in the first place. :)

Dencore, how long has it been since you've played a new Metroid game, or any Resident Evil?

[spoiler] There are save points... plenty of them. [/spoiler]

Dencore, how long has it been since you've played a new Metroid game, or any Resident Evil?

[spoiler] There are save points... plenty of them. [/spoiler]

Angry_Beaver

Exactly that is what I said having random battles add tension because you don't know whether you will die or not when you get to a save point....

oh wait I ment to put another sentence in there but I deleted it and left "no" in there. :opps: But still do you see my point?

I have a question for you, do you dislike JRPG's because of the gameplay or because they just aren't as good as they use to be?Dencore

[QUOTE="Dencore"]I have a question for you, do you dislike JRPG's because of the gameplay or because they just aren't as good as they use to be?GodModeEnabled

Well I definately have to disagree with your stance on how WRPG's stories are supeior to JRPG's but to each his own. It also finally brings me relief that someone else finally knows taht Blue Dragon and Eternal Sonata won't be that good *seriously Baiten Kaitos sucked*.

So if I get this right, it was a very well liked genre to you, then when it turned to crap you just abandoned it?

Also I've heard much of the Suikoden series and it has been talking very highly, I would get Suikoden V but *I know this may sound stupid* but I'm currently retiring from my PS2 to focus on my PSP, DS, and Wii. However to add to a happier note it sure is ending with one hell of a bang. Odin Sphere is by far one of the finest JRPG *I should say gaming experiences* I've ever had. :) Also to add note if you want your JRPG fix buy a DS not a PS3, because as stated before consoles are pretty much shovelcrap in Japan with handhelds being the primary.

Also......9.0 and it's by far the best JRPG you've played in recent years?

Seems like this genre's state has taken a huge hit on you.

Because the way the core mechanics are laid out it is much much much harder to make a JRPG in 3D then in 2D. Linear exploration may do fine justice in 2D but not in 3D due to the fact that when you're in 3rd or 1st person you sense the need to explore and JRPG's just don't offer that, not only that but you can definately see your limitations. An example would be like "Oh I can see the bottom of that mountain or I can see that island but I can't go their I must follow this path" or the fact that in a JRPG you often train your party or character in the same areas, yes this flys in 2D but in 3D it's annoying to see the same place over and over again in the 3rd and 1st person perspective. There are random battles in JRPG's and with 3D this is annoying because you want to continue exploring the world and this is sometimes answered by having you see the enemies instead of having them appear, but then the problem lies in you fighting the same enemies over and over. As for combat, I think gaming itself has proved that 3D just can't do combat as fast and as manueverable as 2D with the recent incarnations of Castlevania and 3D fighters. These are just a few examples and as you can read these tend to get very annoying. However these things can't leave because they are needed for a JRPG. Why do we have linear exploration? So we can progress the story and hone the players skills by forcing him to fight certain enemies at a certain time. Why do many have random battles? It's the same why there are save points in Metroid or Resident Evil it builds tension in the game. Why does the combat need to be fast and manueverable? Because it's the best and most fun way by taking out a 30 foot demon king. These are all vital things that define a JRPG and none of them work well in the realm of 3D, so this explains why the downfall in quality because the sheer fact that it is either hard or just flatout impossible to do it. And taking them out will result on just simply changing the genre completely so it isn't even the same genre anymore.

Also it's like many in here said it's better in 2D because you had to imagine what was going on. Playing a JRPG was like reading a visual novel or a manga, putting in cutscenes and voice acting just ruins the experience unless done incredibly well. There's also artstyle most when playing a JRPG don't want to feel like they are playing The Lord of the Rings, but an anime, and 2D does that just well, while 3D and CG just don't really feel like an anime for obvious reasons.

So all in all that pretty much sums it up.

Dencore

You claim Castlevania, as opposed to DMC3, God of War 2, Ninja Gaiden, RE4or ZOE2 is the gold standard of 3D action games? You're clearly cherrypicking games which support your bizarre infatuation with 2D games. Along the same lines, VF5 and Tekken 5 rubbish your claims about 3D fighters. I've got nothing against 2D games (I own a few and havea few moreon my to-buy list) but I don't have any special fetish for the perspective.

As for your argument that 2D is preferable because it is less detailed and doesn't get in the way of the elaborate fantasies you apparently construct, well, to each his own, but when I play a game with an appealing art style, I appreciate more detail (think FF12, VP2, SMT: Nocturne and Shadow Hearts 2). The flipside of that is that Eternal Sonata is a game I am not following just because I don't think I could stomach the artstyle for 40+ hours.

[QUOTE="GodModeEnabled"][QUOTE="Dencore"]I have a question for you, do you dislike JRPG's because of the gameplay or because they just aren't as good as they use to be?Dencore

Well I definately have to disagree with your stance on how WRPG's stories are supeior to JRPG's but to each his own. It also finally brings me relief that someone else finally knows taht Blue Dragon and Eternal Sonata won't be that good *seriously Baiten Kaitos sucked*.

So if I get this right, it was a very well liked genre to you, then when it turned to crap you just abandoned it?

Also I've heard much of the Suikoden series and it has been talking very highly, I would get Suikoden V but *I know this may sound stupid* but I'm currently retiring from my PS2 to focus on my PSP, DS, and Wii. However to add to a happier note it sure is ending with one hell of a bang. Odin Sphere is by far one of the finest JRPG *I should say gaming experiences* I've ever had. :) Also to add note if you want your JRPG fix buy a DS not a PS3, because as stated before consoles are pretty much shovelcrap in Japan with handhelds being the primary.

Also......9.0 and it's by far the best JRPG you've played in recent years?

Seems like this genre's state has taken a huge hit on you.

It also finally brings me relief that someone else finally knows taht Blue Dragon and Eternal Sonata won't be that good *seriously Baiten Kaitos sucked*.

Also to add note if you want your JRPG fix buy a DS not a PS3, because as stated before consoles are pretty much shovelcrap in Japan with handhelds being the primary.Dencore

Where do I find a copy of that crystal ball you're using? Unless you have a Japanese X360, I'm not sure how you can already claim that Eternal Sonata and Blue Dragon "won't be that good."

Oh, and consoles are shovelcrap in Japan? Please elaborate on this further, because it sounds like you've just trashed console gaming on the whole. That's a shame, without a PS2 I might never have played Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne.

[QUOTE="Angry_Beaver"]

To throw this back at you, "Oh, but that's just your opinion! Why do people think this?!"2D for JRPGs and other genres is your preference, but there is no way to objectively state that 2D is better than 3D for anything unless all players have objective criteria for excellence. I disagree that most genres belong in 2D.

Dencore

If the genre evolves more in 2D, if the 2D games are more explored then the 3D games, if the fans prefer the genre in 2D, if the scores for the 2D games score higher then the 3D games, if the genre is crafted around 2D and is often broken in 3D, I assume it should stay 2D. As for most genres I think that was an overstatment, what I mean to say was that many genres in gaming are better in 2D then 3D such as fighting games, platformers, RTS's, shooters *sidescrollers and shoot-em-ups* and some games are better in 3D then 2D shooters *FPS/TPS*, Action-Adventure, Survival Horror, etc.

I would love to know what you're basing this on. If you're talking about your personal preference, fine. Otherwise, that just isn't a true statement, except for those who wish to turn back the clock on gaming as a whole.

Like Carnage used as his example, Ninja Gaiden sure looked good to me. Not to mention a slew of other games that make up the AAA selection for this past gen.

You claim Castlevania, as opposed to DMC3, God of War 2, Ninja Gaiden, RE4or ZOE2 is the gold standard of 3D action games? You're clearly cherrypicking games which support your bizarre infatuation with 2D games. Along the same lines, VF5 and Tekken 5 rubbish your claims about 3D fighters. I've got nothing against 2D games (I own a few and havea few moreon my to-buy list) but I don't have any special fetish for the perspective.

CarnageHeart

I claimed that Castlevania was the pinnacle of 3D? All I did was claim that the game didn't work in 3D. And that's why I said SOME 3D fighters work but if you look at the fighting game community and EVO all the games their are 2D dominate and for a reason, and whether you like it or not their are much more quality 2D fighters then 3D, don't ask me ask Dark_Catalyst I think he can answer it much better.

As for DMC3 and similar games, yes their combat systems are good but you have very little freedom due to the fact that you usually have to use target lock and platforming elements are next to dead compared to Castlevania and Super Metroid. GoW is more of a brawler and to be honest doesn't have a good fighting system compared to Devil May Cry and Ninja Gaiden. As you stated that you played 2D and 3D games and I think you too should know that both are good and bad at different things, like I think we know that Tony Hawk would play much worse in 2D then 3D, yes the GBA version was great but nothing compared to the fulflegged ones. Also I'm not some 3D hater, hell 2 out of the 3 games I gave 10 out of 10 on here are 3D.

I would love to know what you're basing this on. If you're talking about your personal preference, fine. Otherwise, that just isn't a true statement, except for those who wish to turn back the clock on gaming as a whole.

Like Carnage used as his example, Ninja Gaiden sure looked good to me. Not to mention a slew of other games that make up the AAA selection for this past gen.

MarcusAntonius

Read up, also there is alot lot less freedom in game like Ninja Gaiden as oppose to Castlevania *such as jumping on platforms, canceling actions, seeing perspective, always can see where your going, more enemies on a screen *usually*, etc.. Yes we've seen some good action games but they don't offer the speed and freedom of 2D games. Also yes you can do a 3D shoot-em-up but will it be as fast pased or hectic as a 2D curtainfire? I don't know how bullet-hell can work with Starfox. Yes it's all personal perfrence and yes 3D offers some things 2D can't like more ways to attack your enemy, I'm just throwing it out there that it seems to me that 3D is much much more limited then 2D.

Where do I find a copy of that crystal ball you're using? Unless you have a Japanese X360, I'm not sure how you can already claim that Eternal Sonata and Blue Dragon "won't be that good."

Oh, and consoles are shovelcrap in Japan? Please elaborate on this further, because it sounds like you've just trashed console gaming on the whole. That's a shame, without a PS2 I might never have played Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne.

MarcusAntonius

Eternal Sonata is made by the makers of Baiten Kaitos an average JRPG at best. Blue Dragon while looks promising is made by the creator of final fantasy and probably won't have as much depth as other "core" JRPG's.

And no offense unless you have been completely ignoring the news and meda create as a whole.....

Actually I think the Japanese sales chart will give you a better understanding.

It's like I said Japanese publishers don't take consoles at all as seriously as they use to and focus and handheld. I'm not saying consoles suck, but it IS a fact that the majority of Japanese publishers and developers have switched their primary focus to handhelds.

Im not abandoing it I just dont hold any particular loyalty to one genre or another, I like all kinds of games. Tonight I played some Guitar Hero 2, Fight Night Round 3 , Rockstars Tabble Tennis, Symphony Of The Night and FEAR. I like pretty much any genre depends on the game. I havent seen a JRPG in a long time that grabbed me, and something has to particularily grab me before I invest 40+ hours into it. However Odin Sphere does grab me, and that looks awesome definetly on my too buy list. Valkyrie Profile 2 is a game I havent got around too and I most definetly want to find a copy of that. FF12 I will probably get and jump into sometime in the near future as well. So the titles are there they are just few and far between for me I suppose, the genre feels stale and kinda samey to me. See Odin Sphere, not a spikey haired preteen saving the world, VP2 same, FF12 political in nature. The storys and characters grab me and thats why these games are the ones I really want, badly. Btw did you finish Odin Sphere, is the slowdown bad? Would you still reccomend it?GodModeEnabled

I see and to be honest I don't blame you, then genre went down the drain. But as I stated this is mostly due to the Japanese game recession. As for Odin Sphere to be honest I don't know if you're going to like it. It isn't like Final Fantasy or Secret of Mana, but more like Lunar Knights or Boktai where you go from one area and clear it to fight a boss, and go to the next, yes you have the ablity to choose to where you want to go but it's still the same linear patters. Also the combat is very how should I say this "actiony". However battles are full of tactics and strategy as you figure out what you need to do and how you need to position yourself and what timing you should take down enemies. It really is one of the most indepth games of skill I've played in a while, but then again it's just my opinion. But what the hell it's only $40. Anyway I'd think you'd like Dragon Quest VIII much better, it sounds much more like the expirence you look for of rekindling the olden days. :)

And it's only $20-$30 ;)

Eternal Sonata is made by the makers of Baiten Kaitos an average JRPG at best. Blue Dragon while looks promising is made by the creator of final fantasy and probably won't have as much depth as other "core" JRPG's.

And no offense unless you have been completely ignoring the news and meda create as a whole.....

Actually I think the Japanese sales chart will give you a better understanding.

Dencore

You're going to use a Japanese sales chart to prove how poorly a X360 has been received? Tell me this is a joke. Last time I checked, MS barely has a finger, let alone a foot in the door in the Japanese market. This is pretty disingenuous on your part, no offense.

Read up, also there is alot lot less freedom in game like Ninja Gaiden as oppose to Castlevania *such as jumping on platforms, canceling actions, seeing perspective, always can see where your going, more enemies on a screen *usually*, etc.. Yes we've seen some good action games but they don't offer the speed and freedom of 2D games. Also yes you can do a 3D shoot-em-up but will it be as fast pased or hectic as a 2D curtainfire? I don't know how bullet-hell can work with Starfox. Yes it's all personal perfrence and yes 3D offers some things 2D can't like more ways to attack your enemy, I'm just throwing it out there that it seems to me that 3D is much much more limited then 2D.

Dencore

What is all this supposed "freedom" you keep talking about? 2D games are limiting to gameplay, they're not an enhancement. The Castlevania comparison doesn't hold water, you're talking about two entirely different genres. Do the RE games have this freedom of yours? How about Metal Gear, Splinter Cell, Nocturne, Silent Hill, etc. I'm thinking you're digging for something that isn't there because your argument is incoherent with a premise that is doubtful at best.

[QUOTE="Dencore"]

Eternal Sonata is made by the makers of Baiten Kaitos an average JRPG at best. Blue Dragon while looks promising is made by the creator of final fantasy and probably won't have as much depth as other "core" JRPG's.

And no offense unless you have been completely ignoring the news and meda create as a whole.....

Actually I think the Japanese sales chart will give you a better understanding.

MarcusAntonius

You're going to use a Japanese sales chart to prove how poorly a X360 has been received? Tell me this is a joke. Last time I checked, MS barely has a finger, let alone a foot in the door in the Japanese market. This is pretty disingenuous on your part, no offense.

I'm going have to agree...If your using sale figures to determined quality. Why in heck do I even waste my time playing anything but FF, Dragon Quest, And Kingdom Hearts then? I mean serious...Stuff like System Shock, Dues Ex, Baldur's Gate, NWN, Kotor, Fallout, Planescape, Tales of the Abyss, Shin Megami Series(Digital Devil and Persona also)....And Yes...I can contuine if you want?

Sorry to break it but FF is pretty average...the difference is it has high production value and a large budget to make up for it

see and to be honest I don't blame you, then genre went down the drain. But as I stated this is mostly due to the Japanese game recession. As for Odin Sphere to be honest I don't know if you're going to like it. It isn't like Final Fantasy or Secret of Mana, but more like Lunar Knights or Boktai where you go from one area and clear it to fight a boss, and go to the next, yes you have the ablity to choose to where you want to go but it's still the same linear patters. Also the combat is very how should I say this "actiony". However battles are full of tactics and strategy as you figure out what you need to do and how you need to position yourself and what timing you should take down enemies. It really is one of the most indepth games of skill I've played in a while, but then again it's just my opinion. But what the hell it's only $40. Anyway I'd think you'd like Dragon Quest VIII much better, it sounds much more like the expirence you look for of rekindling the olden days.Dencore

Read up, also there is alot lot less freedom in game like Ninja Gaiden as oppose to Castlevania *such as jumping on platforms, canceling actions, seeing perspective, always can see where your going, more enemies on a screen *usually*, etc.. Yes we've seen some good action games but they don't offer the speed and freedom of 2D games. Also yes you can do a 3D shoot-em-up but will it be as fast pased or hectic as a 2D curtainfire? I don't know how bullet-hell can work with Starfox. Yes it's all personal perfrence and yes 3D offers some things 2D can't like more ways to attack your enemy, I'm just throwing it out there that it seems to me that 3D is much much more limited then 2D.

[Dencore

I have to say you just compared Castlvania (which has a lot of exploration) to a game like Ninja Gaiden, which never had any.

by far, the Xbox version of Ninja Gaiden destroys the 2d version in pretty much every aspect you can think of... it's not 3D's fault Konami has been unable to transfer Castlevania into 3D. Metroid, Zelda, Mario, Metal Gear,,, have all made the 3D translation successfully and are among some of the most critically acclaimed games.

I love beat em ups and action games so im buying Odin Sphere and taking my chances, it looks fun as hell.GodModeEnabled

I would reccomend it. I am having a blast playing. The game overall is pretty interesting but it does seem to be more attractive to a niche group of people and a not really a mass appeal type game.

[QUOTE="MarcusAntonius"][QUOTE="Dencore"]

Eternal Sonata is made by the makers of Baiten Kaitos an average JRPG at best. Blue Dragon while looks promising is made by the creator of final fantasy and probably won't have as much depth as other "core" JRPG's.

And no offense unless you have been completely ignoring the news and meda create as a whole.....

Actually I think the Japanese sales chart will give you a better understanding.

Acenso

You're going to use a Japanese sales chart to prove how poorly a X360 has been received? Tell me this is a joke. Last time I checked, MS barely has a finger, let alone a foot in the door in the Japanese market. This is pretty disingenuous on your part, no offense.

I'm going have to agree...If your using sale figures to determined quality. Why in heck do I even waste my time playing anything but FF, Dragon Quest, And Kingdom Hearts then? I mean serious...Stuff like System Shock, Dues Ex, Baldur's Gate, NWN, Kotor, Fallout, Planescape, Tales of the Abyss, Shin Megami Series(Digital Devil and Persona also)....And Yes...I can contuine if you want?

Sorry to break it but FF is pretty average...the difference is it has high production value and a large budget to make up for it

And Eternal Sonata is doing as well as any 360 game could ever hope to in Japan, basically every person in Japan that owns a 360 has the game, and its on pace I think to sell 200,000 copies in one month which is decent.

You're going to use a Japanese sales chart to prove how poorly a X360 has been received? Tell me this is a joke. Last time I checked, MS barely has a finger, let alone a foot in the door in the Japanese market. This is pretty disingenuous on your part, no offense.

MarcusAntonius

Wow......I was showing you that the majority of software and hardware sales are to handhelds and that the majority of new games coming out are for handhelds....... I said nothing about the 360......at all.. Also where in the world did I even hint at the Xbox 360? Unless you completely forgot about the Wii, PS2, and PS3 and assumed the 360 was the only console on the market, but I doubt that's the case. Also if you or anyone else is wondering why Microsoft is having such a hard time in the market, feel free to watch their advertising.

What is all this supposed "freedom" you keep talking about? 2D games are limiting to gameplay, they're not an enhancement. The Castlevania comparison doesn't hold water, you're talking about two entirely different genres. Do the RE games have this freedom of yours? How about Metal Gear, Splinter Cell, Nocturne, Silent Hill, etc. I'm thinking you're digging for something that isn't there because your argument is incoherent with a premise that is doubtful at best.

MarcusAntonius

I'm talking about freedom of combat,such as you can attack multiple enemies without targeting or fight hack and slash without getting bored to death *Dynasty Warriors tried the repetitive combat route and well.....yes some have done it right but most fail compared to the 2D ones that outshine in this realm* , jumping over enemies, camera angels, co-op play *no splitscreen for hectic action* etc.And what do Stealth, Turnbased JRPG's, and Survival horror games have anything to do with fast paced combat is beyond me since their whole gameplay is revolved around keeping a slow pace. All I said was that 2D does most things in this realm better then 3D, but I never said that Ninja Gaiden was "crap" because it does many things 2D can't do, but the action genre as a whole works better in 2D which explains why there were/are so many more games and different types of subgenres in the realm of 2D then 3D *which is fact*. But does that mean 2D>3D for an action game? No as I said they play different and it's all opinion.

I'm going have to agree...If your using sale figures to determined quality. Why in heck do I even waste my time playing anything but FF, Dragon Quest, And Kingdom Hearts then? I mean serious...Stuff like System Shock, Dues Ex, Baldur's Gate, NWN, Kotor, Fallout, Planescape, Tales of the Abyss, Shin Megami Series(Digital Devil and Persona also)....And Yes...I can contuine if you want?

Sorry to break it but FF is pretty average...the difference is it has high production value and a large budget to make up for it

Acenso

Seriously people all I was saying is that the majority of Japanese publishers and developers are developing for handhelds now *which whether you like it or not it IS true*. And not to be rude but I don't get why your listing games on PC made in America *when I'm talking about Japan* and Japanese games that came out in recent years the handheld takeover is happening currently. And most of their big titles are towards handhelds too. Take Square, yes FFXIII and Last Remenant are to next gen consoles but their biggest franchise DQIX and their continuing franchises FFT and Persona to portables and their new gaems Crisis Core, Dissdia, and It's a Wonderful World to portables. So what does that tell you that the biggest company is doing that.

And I agree FF is an average game at best. Yes their are a few standouts but most of it is just presentation dribble.

Oh I played through DQVIII last year, great game. A little too old school maybe by the end I was getting bored with the combat. But I loved the big colorfull bosses and feel of the game, it was fantastic. I love beat em ups and action games so im buying Odin Sphere and taking my chances, it looks fun as hell.GodModeEnabled

You love beat em ups and action games and JRPG's? Dude Odin Spehre was made for you.

I have to say you just compared Castlvania (which has a lot of exploration) to a game like Ninja Gaiden, which never had any.

by far, the Xbox version of Ninja Gaiden destroys the 2d version in pretty much every aspect you can think of... it's not 3D's fault Konami has been unable to transfer Castlevania into 3D. Metroid, Zelda, Mario, Metal Gear,,, have all made the 3D translation successfully and are among some of the most critically acclaimed games.

smerlus

I was talking about switching actions and combat, and is 3D's fault it can't work because you can't switch actions like jumping on enemies heads to platforms because it's simply impossible because of the camera angels and the swift combat while enjoyable in 2D would be an utter bore in 3D. This is just like Ninja Gaiden the 2D ones had simple beat-em-up combat which was fun in 2D, but it transfered horribly in 3D so they changed the game, and you get the glorious gem we have now. And it wouldn't matter because the current Ninja Gaiden just can't work in 2D because similar to how hack-n-slash in boring in 3D, I think the way Ninja Gaiden plays with the blocking, counterattacks, etc. wouldn't be as entertaining in 2D if entertaining at all, so the Ninja Gaiden's we have now are made for 3D and as you already know are amazing games. I admit Castlevania was definately the wrong choice I should've used something similar to Street Fighter 3, but while Ninja Gaiden and Street Fighter both focus on combat I think you can see that the comparison fails because they are two different genres. The only way they can make a good 3D Castlevania is to change it completly until it isn't even the same game anymore. I really can't find a 2D game that plays like Ninja Gaiden/Devil May Cry which is strange because it's really just a beat-em-up with a tight combat system Zelda is an adventure game it's MADE to be in 3D, Metal Gear played top down in recently just like it's previous incarnations, the only one that you listed that I can use is Metroid which did an incredible job in the transition, however it still is missing somethings. Yes the platforming is good but not as detailed as Super Metroid and you can't take a 180 degree turn in an instant. Though I do like the 3D Metroids much better then the 2D ones.

Again two different dimensions, two forms of gameplay. All I was saying is that 2D is better at some things then 3D and vice versa and while you agreed with me on the aspect that JRPG's fit this message, other users for some reason are complelty freaking out as if I stated that 3D is worthless garbage that should've never been in gaming when all I was doing is stating examples that 3D just can't do and vice versa for 2D.

I've noticed lately there haven't been a lot of RPGs of any kind lately. Hopefully as we get farther into this generation more RPGs will arrive. FFXIII, Blue Dragon, and White Knight Story are the only 3 so far that have really been shown to the public.Bladefighter23

Well JRPG's in the few of the past couple years have been due to the Japanese game recession, if you notice many Japanese games lost alot of quality and were casualtilized during the PS2 era. This was due to the fact that the country was literally on the verge of a game crash. Luckliy because of the DS it's back now stronger then ever. Anyway most are on handhelds now being the DS and PSP, the Japanese consumers have switch their focus from console to handhelds, and since handhelds software sales are so much higher then consoles and are so much cheaper to make games with its pretty much a no brainer that most Japanese devs will flock to there. This is why their are very few JRPG's announced for the Wii, PS3, and 360 but dozens upon dozens for the DS and PSP.

[QUOTE="MarcusAntonius"]

You're going to use a Japanese sales chart to prove how poorly a X360 has been received? Tell me this is a joke. Last time I checked, MS barely has a finger, let alone a foot in the door in the Japanese market. This is pretty disingenuous on your part, no offense.

Dencore

Wow......I was showing you that the majority of software and hardware sales are to handhelds and that the majority of new games coming out are for handhelds....... I said nothing about the 360......at all.. Also where in the world did I even hint at the Xbox 360? Unless you completely forgot about the Wii, PS2, and PS3 and assumed the 360 was the only console on the market, but I doubt that's the case. Also if you or anyone else is wondering why Microsoft is having such a hard time in the market, feel free to watch their advertising.

What is all this supposed "freedom" you keep talking about? 2D games are limiting to gameplay, they're not an enhancement. The Castlevania comparison doesn't hold water, you're talking about two entirely different genres. Do the RE games have this freedom of yours? How about Metal Gear, Splinter Cell, Nocturne, Silent Hill, etc. I'm thinking you're digging for something that isn't there because your argument is incoherent with a premise that is doubtful at best.

MarcusAntonius

I'm talking about freedom of combat,such as you can attack multiple enemies without targeting or fight hack and slash without getting bored to death *Dynasty Warriors tried the repetitive combat route and well.....yes some have done it right but most fail compared to the 2D ones that outshine in this realm* , jumping over enemies, camera angels, co-op play *no splitscreen for hectic action* etc.And what do Stealth, Turnbased JRPG's, and Survival horror games have anything to do with fast paced combat is beyond me since their whole gameplay is revolved around keeping a slow pace. All I said was that 2D does most things in this realm better then 3D, but I never said that Ninja Gaiden was "crap" because it does many things 2D can't do, but the action genre as a whole works better in 2D which explains why there were/are so many more games and different types of subgenres in the realm of 2D then 3D *which is fact*. But does that mean 2D>3D for an action game? No as I said they play different and it's all opinion.

I'm going have to agree...If your using sale figures to determined quality. Why in heck do I even waste my time playing anything but FF, Dragon Quest, And Kingdom Hearts then? I mean serious...Stuff like System Shock, Dues Ex, Baldur's Gate, NWN, Kotor, Fallout, Planescape, Tales of the Abyss, Shin Megami Series(Digital Devil and Persona also)....And Yes...I can contuine if you want?

Sorry to break it but FF is pretty average...the difference is it has high production value and a large budget to make up for it

Acenso

Seriously people all I was saying is that the majority of Japanese publishers and developers are developing for handhelds now *which whether you like it or not it IS true*. And not to be rude but I don't get why your listing games on PC made in America *when I'm talking about Japan* and Japanese games that came out in recent years the handheld takeover is happening currently. And most of their big titles are towards handhelds too. Take Square, yes FFXIII and Last Remenant are to next gen consoles but their biggest franchise DQIX and their continuing franchises FFT and Persona to portables and their new gaems Crisis Core, Dissdia, and It's a Wonderful World to portables. So what does that tell you that the biggest company is doing that.

And I agree FF is an average game at best. Yes their are a few standouts but most of it is just presentation dribble.

Oh I played through DQVIII last year, great game. A little too old school maybe by the end I was getting bored with the combat. But I loved the big colorfull bosses and feel of the game, it was fantastic. I love beat em ups and action games so im buying Odin Sphere and taking my chances, it looks fun as hell.GodModeEnabled

You love beat em ups and action games and JRPG's? Dude Odin Spehre was made for you.

I have to say you just compared Castlvania (which has a lot of exploration) to a game like Ninja Gaiden, which never had any.

by far, the Xbox version of Ninja Gaiden destroys the 2d version in pretty much every aspect you can think of... it's not 3D's fault Konami has been unable to transfer Castlevania into 3D. Metroid, Zelda, Mario, Metal Gear,,, have all made the 3D translation successfully and are among some of the most critically acclaimed games.

smerlus

I was talking about switching actions and combat, and is 3D's fault it can't work because you can't switch actions like jumping on enemies heads to platforms because it's simply impossible because of the camera angels and theswift combat while enjoyable in 2D would be an utter bore in 3D. This is just like Ninja Gaiden the 2D ones had simple beat-em-up combat which was fun in 2D, but it transfered horribly in 3D so they changed the game, and you get the glorious gem we have now. And it wouldn't matter because the current Ninja Gaiden just can't work in 2D because similar to how hack-n-slash in boring in 3D, I think the way Ninja Gaiden plays with the blocking, counterattacks, etc. wouldn't be as entertaining in 2D if entertaining at all, so the Ninja Gaiden's we have now are made for 3D and as you already know are amazing games. I admit Castlevania was definately the wrong choice I should've used something similar to Street Fighter 3, but while Ninja Gaiden and Street Fighter both focus on combat I think you can see that the comparison fails because they are two different genres. The only way they can make a good 3D Castlevania is to change it completly until it isn't even the same game anymore. I really can't find a 2D game that plays like Ninja Gaiden/Devil May Cry which is strange because it's really just a beat-em-up with a tight combat system Zelda is an adventure game it's MADE to be in 3D, Metal Gear played top down in recently just like it's previous incarnations, the only one that you listed that I can use is Metroid which did an incredible job in the transition, however it still is missing somethings. Yes the platforming is good but not as detailed as Super Metroid and you can't take a 180 degree turn in an instant. Though I do like the 3D Metroids much better then the 2D ones.

Again two different dimensions, two forms of gameplay. All I was saying is that 2D is better at some things then 3D and vice versa and while you agreed with me on the aspect that JRPG's fit this message, other users for some reason are complelty freaking out as if I stated that 3D is worthless garbage that should've never been in gaming when all I was doing is stating examples that 3D just can't do and vice versa for 2D.

Swift combat is a bore in 3D? Coupled with your claim that NG plays slower in 3D than it does in 2D, I no longer believe you have played the modern Ninja Gaidens. The only thing I come out of your arguments with is that you prefer 3D to 2D. None of your arguments, be they about action games or rpgs have make a lick of sense or held an ounce of truth. I could write a lengthy argument explaining about why you are wrong, but since you can't write a coherent one explaining why you are right, why bother?

Swift combat is a bore in 3D? Coupled with your claim that NG plays slower in 3D than it does in 2D, I no longer believe you have played the modern Ninja Gaidens. The only thing I come out of your arguments with is that you prefer 3D to 2D. None of your arguments, be they about action games or rpgs have make a lick of sense or held an ounce of truth. I could write a lengthy argument explaining about why you are wrong, but since you can't write a coherent one explaining why you are right, why bother?

CarnageHeart

When did I say ANYTHING about Ninja Gaidens combat system being swift? Swift Combat is anything BUT Ninja Gaiden. I mean swift combat as in combat as you press one button to do the same attack over and over and over and over. Castlevania when you use a sword you just do the same thrusting action to attack, however with ninja gaiden you can do multiple attacks even by pressing the same button you see him continue on his actions *example sword down, sword up, sword down*. I think you don't understand what I'm talking about because I never said anything about Ninja Gaidens complex combat being a "bore". I just said that doing the same one hit action is more fun in 2D then in 3D and is prooven by more games in 2D do this and are highly thought off while in 3D they are often looked down upon.

Ironically, my sentiment is a little opposite of the original post. After the dialouge of FF XII, I've replayed a handful of Suikodens, Final Fantasies, and a few others this year, and most of them aren't as good as I remembered. Particularly, their writing and event scenes feel more technically juvenile and amateur in contrast to how well crafted XII's are. Especially the Suikodens, even V (which I still love, though); ironically though II's story held up the best (though the pacing is weaker than I remember; notably certain events and 'dungeons/forests' that feel archaic and time wasting). About the only 2 that really held up for me were FF VI and VII; VI because the story is so good, and VII because it still as a very tense and gripping atmosphere, always a grim, immersing mood. In terms of charm though, Suikoden V really does well. It has to since it can be harder to take serious with how light the characters can be, but nonetheless some of the cast was pretty warm and won me over like Suikoden II did (and IV massively failed at). Also, though I'm not a big FF10 fan and I actually never liked the cast, those that did like Tidus and Yuna must of found them charming. It's about the only way you could love the game since they are such a big focus.KyanMehwulfe

AsforFFX,Icanhonestlysaythatitisthegreatestintheseriesyet. Why? Because of the huge amount of freedom you gain at the end of the game, the sidequests are reallythereasonwhy I play the genre in the first place so given that by the time you get the airship you can also get equipment that allows you to skip all random battles to your heart's contentment the game just becomes heaven for me (I honestly though the story sucked big time though, you only ever work out what the hell is going on once you get to the end).

I'll also go on record and say that KH was one of the greatest examples the genre has to offer ,the game's

optional battles completely blew me away (namely Kirt Ziza and the beach duel) dispide the fact that the game's normal combat devolved as the game went on. The story completely sucked though, it was poorly done blatant fanservice and I couldn't help but feel dissapointed on that front,though the game completely made up for itwiththefreedomofexplorationitgrantsyou.

KHII was truely honest to god aweful though, the game gives you no freedom to go off the beaten path and do anything that would otherwise beremotely interesting, reducing the whole game to "mash x and triangle FTW!". Dear God do I hate KHII...

Reading my post you will see a theme emerge,I play RPGs to explore their worlds, systems and abilities while taking in the atmosphere, if a game has a great combat system and story that is simply a bonus for me. The point here is that the genre is not defined by what you want it to be, diffrent people want diffrent things from RPGs, some people only care about story, others only about stats and values and hence there are diffrent games that cater to them. To be quite blunt I consider the current generation of RPGs to be an improvement on what has come before, the depth and freedom they offer is in many cases greater then what it was in the past and the quality of the music and environmental sounds has improved.

But that's just me...

[QUOTE="CarnageHeart"]

Swift combat is a bore in 3D? Coupled with your claim that NG plays slower in 3D than it does in 2D, I no longer believe you have played the modern Ninja Gaidens. The only thing I come out of your arguments with is that you prefer 3D to 2D. None of your arguments, be they about action games or rpgs have make a lick of sense or held an ounce of truth. I could write a lengthy argument explaining about why you are wrong, but since you can't write a coherent one explaining why you are right, why bother?

Dencore

When did I say ANYTHING about Ninja Gaidens combat system being swift? 2) Swift Combat is anything BUT Ninja Gaiden. I mean swift combat as in combat as you press one button to do the same attack over and over and over and over. Castlevania when you use a sword you just do the same thrusting action to attack, however with ninja gaiden you can do multiple attacks even by pressing the same button you see him continue on his actions *example sword down, sword up, sword down*. I think you don't understand what I'm talking about because I never said anything about Ninja Gaidens complex combat being a "bore". I just said that doing the same one hit action is more fun in 2D then in 3D and is prooven by more games in 2D do this and are highly thought off while in 3D they are often looked down upon.

1) How quickly we forget. Check your post on the botton of the prior page.

it's simply impossible because of the camera angels and the swift combat while enjoyable in 2D would be an utter bore in 3D. This is just like Ninja Gaiden the 2D ones had simple beat-em-up combat which was fun in 2D, but it transfered horribly in 3D so they changed the game,

2) No disrespect, but the problem is that you don't appear to be using words in the same sense that a native English speaker would. You are using the word 'swift' when a native English speaker would use the word 'simple'. Juxtaposing the two words is confusing because they aren't really related (gameplay can be simple without beingswift and vice versa).

3) As for your claim people have lost their taste for buttonmashers in 3D, think Kingdom Hearts (its strange that you overlooked it since it is mentioned in every other post in this thread) which sold millions and millions of copies.

1) How quickly we forget. Check your post on the botton of the prior page.

it's simply impossible because of the camera angels and the swift combat while enjoyable in 2D would be an utter bore in 3D. This is just like Ninja Gaiden the 2D ones had simple beat-em-up combat which was fun in 2D, but it transfered horribly in 3D so they changed the game,

I said being swift because it ISN'T swift. Swift means simple and laid back combat, which Ninja Gaiden is anything but.

2) No disrespect, but the problem is that you don't appear to be using words in the same sense that a native English speaker would. You are using the word 'swift' when a native English speaker would use the word 'simple'. Juxtaposing the two words is confusing because they aren't really related (gameplay can be simple without beingswift and vice versa).

Sorry I tend to do this sometimes.I apologize if you misunderstood.

3) As for your claim people have lost their taste for buttonmashers in 3D, think Kingdom Hearts (its strange that you overlooked it since it is mentioned in every other post in this thread) which sold millions and millions of copies.

Yes but if you take up all the button mashers that were in 2D during the SNES and Genesis era and compare it to the 3D ones of now. *choose both because it pretty much equals out at the time of true 2D's introduction *NES* and the true 3D introduction *PSone*. I mean sure there are some good 3D brawlers like God Hand and the Warriors but compare and contrast to the wide amount of quanity of brawlers during the 2D age. I mean sure people have said the Warriors is good, but I've never heard anyone say it is worthy in the top 10 greatest games of all-time like Guardian Heroes. And yes I know there are some hard action games like Ninja Gaiden and Devil May Cry are worthy to some as top 10 material, hell even their favorite, but 2D concured the brawler type genres. I was just stating that 2D does something better and easier then 3D and vice versa. It's just sad because 2D got cut short, but luckly devs are finally taking it seriously with the DS and PSP.

Anyway this all started withme stating the problem is that the genre went 3D and it doesn't work as well because the genre is based of off 2D game mechanics which can't change because it will change the genre itself. But it seems that it has brought this thread wayyyyyy of topic and I apologize to Ask_Story.

CarnageHeart