"Hatred" and Violent Games

Come again?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9T_hsnQ6js

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26am0uKnnRs

If that isn't sexual content i dont know what is. This is as close to pron as anything i have seen in games. Is it short, sure but that doesnt change the fact that you get to see and hear pretty much everything.

3) The developers themselves refer to it as "genocide". Not sure why you're disputing what the developers themselves are saying. Unless, again, you're claiming the developers are lying. So either it means the developers are promoting genocide, or they are liars.

5) I don't read Polygon, but I'm certainly familiar with the "Defense League" organizations. And what they have in common is "the systematic extermination of all or a significant part of a racial, ethnic, religious or national group." Your own definition includes religious groups, so not sure why you're contradicting your own definition. And while the EDL at least makes some sense, the Polish Defense League makes no sense whatsoever, considering how minuscule and irrelevant that religious minority is in that country.

If that's the most "sexual content" you've seen in games, then you're clearly not very familiar with Japanese games. A lot of Japanese games have been banned from Steam for explicit sexual content, even if it's just a few scenes of consensual sex.

3) Again i dont give a crap what word the developers use 2sec in a trailer. They are not native english speakers so they are probably not aware of the actual meaning of the word and that its not what they display in the game. So what about if we stick to what the word means and not use it just to lay on the scare tactics. Since i am absolute sure that you know the real meaning.

4) Care to link to where it specifically says that Polish Defence league is for the extermination of a race, religious or national group?

Because this is what they say on their facebook "English Defence League - Polish Defence League , an association of showing the true face of Islam and anti- Islamisation Polish ." Islam is a religion not a people, and no that isn't included in Genocide.

But that aside again all he did was throw down a like and luckily most serious people knows that doesn't mean jack shit and certainly not that he is supportive of neo-nazisme. That argument is just something certain individuals use to scare people since who wants to be associated with that.

If that's the most "sexual content" you've seen in games, then you're clearly not very familiar with Japanese games. A lot of Japanese games have been banned from Steam for explicit sexual content, even if it's just a few scenes of consensual sex.

I didn´t say that it was the worst iv seen. But its clearly sexual content and its on steam.

God you're a prude. Those are not explicit. That's just regular Hollywood film sex.

And? do you really disagree that its sexual content? and that was what you refuted was in those games and on steam.

Read it again. He said explicit sexual contact.

Neither those clips or any of the games listed show explicit sexual contact.

And it doesn't change my argument.

Do you see the mans , no but the rest is clearly there and have left nothing to the imagination

And you're argument is nothing more than a strawman.

i don't think he knows what it is

Do you honestly think that is explicit sex? I take it you don't get out much or are really young.

Ehmm. No a strawman is if i misrepresented something you or someone else said.

What i did was make an argument and support it with a video that clearly shows explicit sexual content. Since it clearly shows a naked female body in its entirety and engaged in a sexual act.

Explicit sexual contact refers to when you can actually see penetration. What you showed was just Hollywood style sex.

@toast_burner: it's sexual content...

But it's not explicit sexual contact.

"The term "sexually explicit" is often used as euphemism for pornography. It includes unsimulated sex acts, sexual intercourse and uncovered genitalia."

And while you do not see the males you most certainly see the woman´s"

But whatever you describe what is seen as, its clearly a sexual act and on steam.

and not a single person here was arguing as to whether steam allows the portrayal of sex acts in games. So your argument is a strawman.

I can't watch those videos, since I'm at work, but I'm pretty sure they aren't explicit content since they're on YouTube. When someone mentions explicit, they mean actual hard-on (pun intended) pornographic material. Penis into vagina. Sperm on breasts. Lots of absolutely filthy things that will turn R movies into NC-17s.

@Jag85:

1) >doesn't use steam. Oh man hahaha no wonder you're so oblivious.

2) No, he said in the narration he's going on a "genocide crusade", now unless you can name me whom or what he's killing specifically, then you're going by the ambiguous definition which is a large group of people. In which case almost every war game fits that definition. Also there are consequences to you going through with this, hence the police involvement.

3) Yet another misuse of the word "naive", Either your reading comprehension is that of a child or you're skimming too much to actually understand what I'm saying. The Nazi reference was regarding undead fetus', and talking about civilians? Dude, you're playing an anarchist who believes all of those people who are "civilians" are evil. I mean do you want to ban roller coaster tycoon as the fun of it is mass murdering the amusement park goers? How about sims city where you can have them nuked to death? Mercenaries playground of destruction where you literally bomb cities? How about call of duty when you shot up a whole airport? You're really having problems identifying fiction from reality, since they aren't civilians in the game context, they are the "Patriarchy", I mean honestly, replace it with a feminist and the game is A+ 10/10 IGN, I'm sure

4) Some people like games that are off the wall ridiculous like that, I don't like heavy metal or rap, but I respect peoples right to enjoy it. You on the other hand judge them based on your limited perception, that is juvenile and you'll eventually have to grow up past that. Or move to Russia, or Australia, they'll welcome your ridiculous condemning.

5) Sorry I skimmed over the "far right", since most of your post is already equivalent to lead poisoning, getting towards the end of that post started showing effects.

HAHHAHHA oh my god you're so fucking ridiculous. Have you ever lived outside of your countries borders? The Japanese make the biggest mind **** games on the market, sure they don't outright go to "LETS KILL EVERYONE", but hey, even the basic animes such as full metal alchemist, naruto, bleach, and even one piece have demonstrated and acted on Genocide, in the very goddamn shows. You think japanese video games, another type of media is suddenly exempt from this?

Get the **** out.

You know when you're so frekin far up your own ass you make up your own guidelines rather than cite federal fucking law. Guess what, the judge or ESRB is not going to ask for your personal insight on what you consider explicit, you aren't that relevant or important.

"[d]epictions or descriptions of: (1) sexual references; (2) full or partial nudity, including depictions of uncovered female breasts, aroused or unaroused male or female genitalia, and unrealistic or overly detailed genitalia; (3) bestiality; (4) sexual acts to or with minors (anyone under the age of 18); (5) sexual acts including, but not limited to, penetration/intercourse, and/or oral sex with or without another avatar or any other object, including overt sexual toys and/or sexual aids; or (6) sexual behavior that has a violent context."^[1]

seriously I feel like I'm arguing with a bunch of HS students lmfao

Do you people seriously not understand the difference between showing a character nude and showing sex in its fullest?

I can't believe I have to explain this but there is a difference between sex in a pornographic film and sex in a Hollywood film. Yes the Witcher 2 has nudity and sex. But none of it is explicit. Compare it to a game like BoneTown and you'd see why.

@obeliskdr: School these people :P

@toast_burner: Go provide me a legal definition that backs up your opinion and/or is what is used by steam, or shut the **** up. Your opinion is worthless, post something actually relevant and not based on perspective.

>Post limit reached.

What do you think steam bases their subjective rules by? Like any other company? I mean seriously dude this is business 101, to avoid any type of legal problems they go by the federal guidelines. So when someone is like "IM SUING YOU", they can just point out that they went by the federal regulation and take it up to them.

My god.

Why would there be a legal definition? Steams rules are self enforced, law has nothing to do with this.

What do you think the steam rules are based on? Do you honeslty think they are that aubitary? They based them on federal guidelines, LIKE MOST BUSINESS'.

Not sure if that is entirely true as they don't sell Manhunt 2 despite other online stores selling that in the US.

But even so how does that change anything. the fact is steam don't sell pornographic games.

@toast_burner: GTA 3 Hot coffee?Skyrim mods? Rust?

Mods, seriously? You're really grasping for straws now.

Rust doesn't have explicit sexual contact. It doesn't even have any sexual contact at all.

What do you think GS bases their Terms of Use on? Before you say federal guidelines, let me remind you that they've completely reworked their ToU to satiate the people who were complaining their previous terms were too strict? And... heh. The operative word in the term "federal guidelines" is guidelines, meaning these companies don't have to follow their definitions to the letter. They can come up with whatever rules they want, lax or strict, provided it doesn't actually break the law.

So, if a company wants to define their definition of sexually explicit material as simply side boobage or an ejaculating erection, they can and the government can't say otherwise, because then it's a violation of their freedom of speech.

He didn't school shit.

Wouldn't that have been San Andreas? And even, I don't consider that pornographic material. If I remember correctly, the character models were clothed. It was modders who put nude skin on them that caused the whole Hot Coffee debacle.

But toast_burner is talking about actual fully explicit pornographic games, not just nude skins. These games show everything that a porno movie would, not some R-rated Judd Appetow (sp?) movie.

I've written a thesis concerning this topic, covering both sides of the fence. But in the end, let's face it; sex, drugs and violence sells...and it sells well.

@JustPlainLucas: you're moving the goal post

On what post?

@Laythrom: Nice try with the big advertisement for your own youtube channel.

Hatred looks like the kind of game that Sandy Hook *** or Virginia Tech punk would play before actually going through with their real life mass murder sprees in real life.

Here you have a game like Hatred who presents the same violence we've seen before in countless games like COD, Uncharted, Far Cry 4, but the story here is, you are a psychopathic, gun toting, throat slashing maniac, fed up with humanity, ready to kill and slaughter innocents, shooting up the nearest mall or movie theater in hopes of finding violent death in the process. We've seen this before briefly in a past COD game where you had to gun down civilians in an airport.

Ultimately, the long term goal is to desensitize the younger generation for depopulation and mass genocide. History does indeed repeat itself. Even though it says 'adults only', socially awkward or angry teenagers are guaranteed to be the highest demographic of gamers laying this. You can already see the desensitization taken effect in some of the youtube comments from rebel teenagers defending the game, calling critics 'pussies' and thinking games like this are 'freedoms of expression.

The world is changing for the worst right in front of our eyes but we are too blinded by technology and new age idealism to see the long term negative effects being engineered by games like this. The Hatred trailer is basically, a revisiting of mass murder sprees like Sandy Hook or Virginia Tech from the killer's perspective.

These same kids, calling critics 'pussies', screaming 'I WILL BUY THIS GAME AND ENJOY IT' are the same ones crying the most tears when their loved ones are real life victims of nutjobs like the antagonist in Hatred they were just celebrating, embracing and defending. The younger generation are always the easiest to deceive because anything 'edgy or against the grain' feels right to them, even though the ulterior motive is far more complex and sinister than they ever imagine.

3) Sorry, but how in the hell is exterminating the entire human race not "genocide"?

4) This is what you yourself said: "genocide is the systematic extermination of all or a significant part of a racial, ethnic, religious or national group." Why are you suddenly going back on your own words and excluding religious groups from your own definition? You're only contradicting yourself.

And read what I said again: "explicit sexual content". Explicit sexual content means pornographic content where you can actually see sexual penetration and nothing is left to the imagination. It's incredible that toast_burner has to keep explaining something so simple, yet several posters are still coming up with completely irrational arguments to pass off M-rated nudity as NC-rated explicit pornographic content. If you can't actually see any penetration, then it's not explicit sexual content.

2) The developer themselves referred to the game as "genocide". Are you calling the developer a liar too?

3) The difference with those other games is that none of them actually glorify genocide like Hatred does. In games like GTA, mass-murder is an option, but never the actual objective of the game.

4) Heavy metal and rap do not promote genocide. Yet another childish comparison.

5) You already sounded like a drug addict to begin with. You can't even form a half-decent argument without swearing your head off like some kind of rebellious teenager.

We were talking about Japanese games, not anime. But for the record, anime like Full Metal Alchemist, Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece, do not glorify genocide in any sense of the word. They all portray genocide as something negative and tragic, and the protagonists are the ones trying to stop the antagonists from committing genocide, not the ones actually carrying out genocide themselves. As for actual Japanese games, like I already said, they haven't even reached GTA's level of violence yet. The closest thing, Yakuza, doesn't even let you murder any civilians like GTA does.

And finally, regarding what I said before about ISIS Simulator 2014, ISIS are in fact creating a game just like that. Should we accept that ISIS game onto Steam Greenlight too? I'm sure the people who have no issues with Hatred would surely have no issues with that either...

3) He isn't going to exterminated the entire human race, he might want to. but going on a murderous rampage is and never will be genocide, what you are doing is misusing a word that is used about what went on in Serbia and Kosovo, what went on in Germany during the 2nd world war and what ISIS is doing. If we go by your logic the guy who shot 2 cops in NY was committing genocide, and do you hear anyone use the word in that case? or about any school shooting ? or about what happened in norway? no, because using words meaning isn't just black and white.

But again i know the only reason you are so keen to use the word here about the game is because you know exactly how it sounds and how much worse people will react, its a clever tactic but it falls to the ground.

4) Religion isn't a person so dont attempt to make it into one.

And again with your definition and you are being very contradicting here. Above you go by the letter of what the meaning is, and below you make up your own and substitute it and make it seem like you and Toast are correct. So can you figure out how you want to go about things? is it black and white always or is it nuanced?

3) I'm only using the same exact word that the trailer used: Genocide. There is no misrepresentation or strawman here. That is exactly what the trailer said, no matter how much you try to white-wash it. If you don't want the game to be portrayed as a genocidal game, then maybe you should go complain to the developer to stop promoting it with the word "genocide", instead of complaining about its detractors using the very word that the game describes itself as.

4) Again, you're contradicting yourself. I'm only using the same definition that you provided. And that definition includes religious groups, not just racial or ethnic groups. Attempting to cleanse a nation of a certain religious group constitutes a form of genocide, according to your own definition. Even some of the examples you mentioned, such as what happened in the Balkans and what ISIS is doing today, involve the cleansing of religious groups.

When I was referring to explicit sexual content, I was referring to an issue raised in System Wars not too long ago, that of Japanese "eroge" being banned from Steam because they depict sexual penetration in explicit graphic detail. Regardless of how you and those other two users wish to semantically define "explicit sexual content", that does not change the fact that many games have been banned from Steam for containing explicit sexual content. The very fact that the "AAA" games you mentioned are accepted on Steam obviously means that they do not meet Steam's criteria for what qualifies as explicit sexual content. And yet when it comes to violence, there are no restrictions at all, demonstrating a clear double-standard regarding sex and violence.

2) Hey, retard, I literally told you exactly what was said in the trailer. I also gave you the definition and how your logic is asinine. Rather than repeat the same question, let's apply some critical thinking shall we?

3) How is it glorified when police come and try to stop you? The entire context of the game is your embodiment of anarchy, if it were truly glorified you wouldn't have any resistance, there would be no consequence as what you would be doing is absolutely justified.

4) How is this childish? You're trying to talk down to me with like, middle school level tactics (12-13 year old), and actually, they do. By the very definition they say to kill cops, that is a form of genocide, heavy metal does sacrifices live on stage of animals. You're so sheltered that I feel so bad for you, you can go back to listening to lady gaga or Iggy or whoever is popular by the sheep nowadays.

So a drug addict is someone who curses a lot? Dude, I don't know what you do to contribute to society but I can almost guarantee it's significantly less than what I do. Need I remind you that you're the one struggling here, since you don't actually ANSWER any of my questions you just make assumptions and avoid. My skype chat is getting one hell of a laugh from your stupidity as you're stomped into the ground, just sayin. Hell maybe I should tweet it out to reinforce how fucking ridiculous you sound with your self proclaim winning attitude that my 8 year old niece practices.

Okay, so by your fucking logic that any game that promotes you as the villain rather than the hero, is a terrible game that supports bad behavior. Glorifying is subjective, it creates a goal of vengeance to each character affected, do you support vengeance even if it's killing your best friends? Where you disregard collateral damage, that is by far the most glorified thing in pieces like that, since the characters are the "Cool, quiet" and even "smug" kind. See Sasuke, Scar, whoever that quincy's douchebag name is, and one piece being fishman AND an entire race of an ancient civilation. Oh and let's not forget sky island. How about Nico Robin? lmao

They all fall under media so it doesn't matter honestly if you try to differentiate the two. And if the public wants a game from Isis (Hint: they won't) then green light serves it's purpose. Ever heard of separating the artist from the art? Oh who am I kidding, you being so sheltered haven't heard anything remotely interesting that hasn't been echo'd by some idealist who spoon feeds your thoughts like a goddamn baby lmao

3) So you are without independent thought? also the developers aren't labeling this as a genocidal game, they used the word 2secs in a trailer. That is so far i know the only time they even used the word. But its pretty damn clear that this game is not about genocide when genocide is not intended to be used about such small scale murderous rampages. Otherwise all who kill could be defined as such.

4) AGAIN Religion is not a group or a person. Genocide is used about killing ACTUAL religious groups IE like Germany did during the WWII with jews etc.... Wanting Islam out of poland doesn't mean they want the people killed or does people gone. They want Islam the religion gone. How can that be so hard to understand?

You might use the term about actual pornographic content , but the definition clearly states that explicit sexual content is also the genitialia, which you clearly can see in Witcher 2. Why it is left on steam doesn´t imply that you are right and i am wrong, it just implies that Steam has their own standards.

Just want to clarify something. No, you can't see genitalia in those clips of Witcher 2. You saw female pubic hair, but you saw nothing else. Pubic hair is not genitalia. And according to Steam's own standards, that is not sexually explicit material. Were it, they would take it down. That simple.

Not sure how it pertains to the actual messages in the game because, again, I haven't played it. But in a more general sense, you're just wrong here.

Think about Star Wars for a minute. If the Rebellion hadn't been resisted by the Galactic Empire, then there would have been no righteous self-sacrifice. Keep in mind that the Rebellion were actual criminals. The Empire put millions (possibly billions) of people to work building an impressive mobile space station. This space station was staffed by engineers and janitors, people just looking for a job, and the rebellion killed every single one of them. That doesn't go AGAINST glorifying the rebellion, that works TOWARDS glorifying the rebellion. See, they only blew up the Death Star because the people running it oppsed them (and were already established to be evil: see the worse crime of blowing up Alderaan). That opposition validates the response. Without any opposition, the Rebels wouldn't have been heroes. They'd have just been some assholes who murdered the shit out of a bunch of honest working Joes. Hell...how is it not apparent that the Galactic Empire was specifically made to look so evil for the specific purpose of making the viewers happy when the Rebels murdered the shit out of them and all those who associate with them? That was a necessry part of making the Rebels look so badass. They can't go around committing terrorist acts on government entities, unless the government has already been established to be so fucking awful that it requires illegally blowing up a space station staffed with millions of people just looking for a job to feed their families. If you want to see the rebels doing the COOL stuff (like blowing up space stations and killing enlisted soldiers), then you have to put someone there who opposes their actions. Otherwise, the rational way to act would just be to show the Rebels sitting around writing petitions. And that would make for a really shitty movie.

And that's just one example. If you look around, you can see it all over the place. The Ferguson situation, and the Trayvon Martin situated before it had at least a very strong anti-cop element. And, of course. It's pretty easy to see why people with an anti-cop agenda would actually gravitate towards the narrative which has the cops opposing them. Opposition validates the outrage. Without some kind of opposition, there's nothing to be angry about. And...it's sort of hard to present yourself as a hero when you have no monsters to fight. Hell...even the dumbass KKK knows this. When they try to promote and glorify themselves, they don't do so by presenting their viewpoints as being unopposed. They promote themselves by presenting themselves as the underdogs fighting against unjust opposition.

If the point of the game is your embodiment of anarchy, then the presence of an opposition is not inherently detrimental to that message. If anything, that opposition could SUPPORT the message by providing an alternative by which to judge the merits of the anarchist. Not saying that's how it plays out in the game, but it's not out of the realm of possibility. There's such a thing as contrasts, where one thing only exists in order to glorify its polar opposite. There is no light without dark, there is no goodness of god without the concept of the devil's evilness, that sort of thing.

@MrGeezer:

I think I'll take my bet that the cops are the moral authority and represent the consequence so the player has some type of challenge, like most games who encourage "villain" attributes. I realize my assertion was an assumption, but in context of the response, it was assumed that 'mass murdering' is glorified. We won't have any answers until the game is completely out, not that I'm getting it, that much is obvious.

People are giving Hatred way too damned much credit. It serves no other purpose than to court the Streisand Effect. It's cynical and manipulative, and ultimately cheapens and already pretty cheap industry.

Can you give me an example of religion existing as some objective entity outside of personal subjectivity?

Eh? Do you see Christianity, islam, buddhism or any other form for religion as a person?

Why do you think most western societies are or have separated church and state? because religion is a persons private business and as long as it takes place in that person's home or a privately owned center for it, then its all good.

But if it starts to make demands that interfere with anyone elses life , then there is a problem.

"Eh? Do you see Christianity, islam, buddhism or any other form for religion as a person?"

Absolutely.

My point is you can't separate religion from people. It's a double standard to say, "Religion is fine as long as it's kept personal", yet when it infringes upon others and becomes a public matter it's then "Religion is not a group or a person." Saying religion is not a group or person is like saying politics are not a group or person. Neither can exist without subjectivity. They reside, and exist, inside interpretation, and that's 100% personal.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you.

2) The protagonist's goal is to exterminate humanity, which is genocide no matter how you try to white-wash it. It's not rocket science, boy.

3) The game's objective is to murder as many humans as possible and it rewards you for it. How exactly is that not glorification? You might want to use some of that "critical thinking" you were referring to above, kiddo.

4) Can you name a heavy metal band that promotes the genocide of an entire animal species? If the best example you can come up with is animal sacrifice, then that's just pathetic.

So you're getting so worked up over a random argument on an internet forum that you now need your social media "friends" to back up you up? That's just beyond pathetic. Grow a backbone, and learn to fight your own battles, boy.

When did Scar or Nico Robin ever promote genocide? Scar and Nico Robin were victims of genocide, not perpetrators of genocide. Learn the difference, boy.

3) If the protagonist's goal is to exterminate humanity, then that is genocide. Regardless of whether he has the actual means to carry out this unrealistic goal, that doesn't change the fact that genocide is his intent.

4) Your own definition of genocide includes religious groups. Are you back-stepping away from the very definition you posted above? Also, you can't wipe out a religion without wiping out its practitioners. Almost every historical attempt at wiping out a religion has always resulted in mass-murder. Nevertheless, the PLO's activities so far mainly seem to involve intimidating Polish women to stop dating Muslim men, which makes them more like a Polish equivalent to the KKK or Taliban.

I've never seen any genitalia in Witcher 2 so far, or in the clips you've posted. Like Lucas pointed out above, pubic hair does not constitute genitalia. Steam has clear restrictions against exposing any genitalia, but has no such restrictions against extreme ultra-violent content.

Arggg, your multi quotes Jag :D

But ok lets look at this again.

3) Genocide is again not exterminating the entire human race.

"The term "genocide" did not exist before 1944. It is a very specific term, referring to violent crimes committed against groups with the intent to destroy the existence of the group. Human rights, as laid out in the US Bill of Rights or the 1948 United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights, concern the rights of individuals."

Most people will when you use Genocide instantly think Nazi´s or Kosovo , so no killing everyone indiscriminately cannot be genocide.

4) Religious groups yes, but not religion killing something that isn't alive isn't killing. Religion is and never will be a person, its a book that some people hang on to.

As to witcher look at the video i posted. You clearly see it or at least i have no doubt about what was shown even though it was a short time.

Yet you don't berate obeliskdr for his potty mouth, or use of the term retard? Jag gets chastised by you for using the term boy? He wasn't even addressing you. He was replying to obeliskdr. I don't know... seems like you were looking for an opportunity to jump out of this debate and now that you saw an open door, you took it.