How would you design the perfect melee combat system?

Obviously limited by how many buttons on a controller and how "un-awkwardly" you can use button combinations, but for me, something like this (partially inspired by demon souls).

Multiple weapon types:

Short sword, Long Sword, Spear, Mace/Club, Morningstar, Crossbow, Small shield, heavy shield, mail breaker

Combat is heavily influenced by position. If you're in a small room with a short sword fighting a guy with a spear, his attack damage is severely reduced and yours is highly increased. Shield types are limited according to weapon type. You can't use a full head to toe shield and use a long sword, mace or morningstar. Shields have a health rating that influences their stability. Wooden shields will eventually break, and break faster against a mace or morningstar.

Parries, Ripostes: A sword parry against a morningstar will get you disarmed if they are doing a riposte, but a riposte from an initial morning star strike will disarm them (you can pick up your weapons, but now you're in trouble).

Ripostes against spear wielders will result in a broken spear, with the chance of breaking the spear dependent on the weapon (long > short > club).

Wooden shield users get an advantage against spears in that if the spear sticks, they can break it, but there is also a chance of the spear hitting the player through the shield if it is a critical strike.

Enemies wearing plate armor get a movement reduction penalty after strikes from blunt weapons, but mail users are weak to mail breakers. No armor or light armor gets you the fastest movement speed and largest window of time to parry or riposte.

And so an and so forth. Please comment on ideas here and feel free to add more.

It just seems to me that for games focusing on medieval combat, that the wheel is being re-invented many times over, when an in-depth system that mirrors in some ways how it works in real-life would be sufficient for most titles, with only enemy types and stories differing (of course you can throw magic and made-up weapons into the mix for a twist, but yeah)

Well I didn't come in here expecting any specificity on what time period or fighting style it has to be. I think you would be rather pleased with the combat system in Chivalry: Medieval Combat. I'm not so much a stickler for accuracy in realism since it could cause problems when a realistic aspect doesn't lend itself to gameplay well.

I'll also point out that details as specific as yours don't easily convey their benefits.

As for my ideal combat system, I love the rhythmic nature of the freeflow combat in Arkham games. I imagine they could easily be converted to use in Zelda-style games...

Firstly, camera control would be relegated to the shoulder buttons or triggers. This way you always have 360 degree control of the camera while simultaneously having access to all face buttons and the right analog for uninterrupted action commands.

Secondly, each of the four face buttons are assigned an item/action just like in Zelda games, but each only a specific category (melee weapons on one, long range in another, etc.).

Traditionally in Zelda games, some enemies would have very specific ways to beat them which is cool, but as puzzles, beating the first one basically solves all of them. And so by having a freeflow system paired with assigned button/actions, a game could shift the puzzles from being enemy-specific to being about large groups of enemies. For example there might be an enemy that needs to be frozen, but this one time they attack in a group with fire enemies that instantly thaw them out. Now just by the designer grouping certain enemy combinations, they can have limitless "puzzles". At least that's how I imagine it.

I'd copy Mount & Blade and make a few tweaks.

Have a weak attack, strong attack, jump, and roll on the face buttons. Shoulder buttons have a block button, lock on target button, then use the two shoulder buttons to rotate the camera. Have the right analog stick to enter first person view mode.

I'll buy stock in that business.

Realism is the last thing you should focus on if you want a genuinely interesting combat system with a lot of depth...... but if thats your thing then go for it.

@elheber:

Oh My God.... I love the way you think !!!! :D

I would play that game forever uf you made it like that.

@elheber: if you assign camera control to the shoulder buttons, you eliminate the vertical camera axis and restrict movement to a horizontal plane.

@MirkoS77: Horizontal camera control is the most important in melee combat gameplay, while vertical control can easily be automated. You don't think about it (which is the point) but games like the Arkham series will automatically zoom in and out during melee combat. In and out is a camera control axis you didn't mention that is missing... why? Because the games do very decent jobs of automating this that you don't need manual control.

In fact, manual horizontal control is absolutely necessary because it actively changes your control. That is, if the camera turns, now you have to turn your right analog in another direction to keep moving straight. However, for both zooming and vertical movement, this isn't true. If your camera is facing north, left will always move you west and down will always move you south, no matter if the camera is facing upward, downward, very zoomed in, or very zoomed out.

Relegating camera controls to the shoulder buttons or triggers makes absolute sense for a melee combat system.

@MirkoS77:

Well that would only be an issue if you were making ludicrously massive enemies like in Dark Souls..... he did cite batman as an example so naturally theres no need to look up and down in the heat of battle...... I think his idea is solid just so long as evrrything in the game is built while taking the camera into consideration.

For melee, here are just some general tips:

• always keep the camera generally centered on the character you're playing, whilst also zooming out to make sure you can seen the arena and enemies clearly, regardless of whether you have a free-moving camera system or not. If you're entering a battle, have the camera autocorrect itself if you start an encounter in a weird angle, to let the player know it's go time (that makes the difficulty easier, but if you want the camera to be free no matter what, remember the risks involved there)
• If it's a system involving straight up martial arts, make sure your blows connect well with as few hitbox issues as possible
• an addendum to the above: in order to add more variety, try using different buttons for arms and legs
• for weapon combat, study how each weapon you're using is supposed to be handled in terms of general movement and attack styles, ignoring how fast you're realistically supposed to use such things. If you want to add realism, take the general weight of each weapon's swing into account (gravity has many effects too, and many heavy weapons are gravity based), assuming your character is strong enough to wield them. Done right, this could add a bit of depth to the game's combat system, kinda like Dark Souls does with its larger weapons.
• if you're adding weapon degradation, keep in mind that people will not like it if you have to repair/replace your weapons after either a difficult encounter or one where you're blazing through enemies. I would say study how long it takes the average person to break a weapon on certain moves (lots of research, I know), and increase that resistance by at least 50 percent or more, depending on how often you're going into a fight. Balance enemy encounters accordingly, however, cuz you don't want your weapons to degrade too quickly while you're blazing through easy foes.
• Armor is tricky, but definitely think about how strong each piece of armor would be against certain weapons, like mailbreakers and all that jazz. Movement speed is something you'll have to play by ear, but always assume your character is gonna be strong enough to at least break into a slow sprint with whatever you have on.
• If you're studying Demon's Souls as your template for combat, play that game and really study how each weapon functions, even the ones you rarely use. I would also recommend playing Dark Souls, since its systems are much more refined than Demon's Souls in terms of general combat.

How do you make your weapon breaking intetesting ?

Think about... it breaks.... then what ? You go home ? You change weapons ?

I think this is one of those things developers just put out there to pad out the games length then they feed you some bullshit about realism and making each fight matter.

Its lazy...... but people keep falling for it so might aswell keep doing it.

I agree that weapon degredation/breaking doesn't fit every game. But for some, it could be really great.

In loot-centric games, which tend to be the same games that have weapon degradation in the first place, you outgrow your weapons as you level up. One reason for this is to make you keep pilaging for your next big rare find, and also to keep the scavenging mechanic useful. It's a big part of the game, after all.

But my favorite reason is to prevent stagnation in play variety. It's like in Borderlands when you find just the best legendary weapon and it's a sniper rifle... you might switch your play style up to be more sniper oriented. And then as you outgrow that weapon and it becomes less useful, you'll swap out to an inaccurate superweapon you recently coveted, so you change-up your style again. Ideally, weapons would outlive their usefulness at the exact pace a player would naturally want to change their form anyway.

I'm not a fan of overt leveling systems that increase all your stats all-around. I much prefer games in which leveling has less of an impact, and you're more reliant on skill than stats (Dark Souls and whatnot). In games like this, outgrowing your weapon isn't a feasible way of making players change equipment, so degradation or weapon breaking could be a fine replacement.

Imagine an action RPG without standard stat-based leveling; your effectiveness is solely reliant on the gear you find and your skill in using them. The game makes it a point to let you know great gear is rare, that you'll be fighting with only what you can find and that s*** will break, son. Your favorite spear just broke and the only great piece of equipment you still have in your pack is a crossbow. You really haven't given crossbows a chance... but now it's all you've got left. Well, being the smart person you are and how much you've learned, you decide to remove all your heavy armor, equip spells that slow enemies down or push them back, etc. By the time you realize it, you're playing an entirely different game in which you went through a whole new learning curve!

@elheber:

If you want a skill based game then drop the concept of leveling all together..... if you want gameplay that doesn't stagnate then have a single weapon of each type instead of multiple weapons of the same type at different stats or levels.......

Forcing weapon change through degradation is not my idea of a good time.... does the game not trust me to switch weapons when I'm ready..... what if I like my weapon ?

I think you're better off looking at Blood Bornes weapons over the Souls games.... it has fewer weapons but each one is unique and usually never out grows its usefulness........ as opposed to Dark Souls with many weapons that were useless since the differences were just stats.

Unless of course if you're going for a Loot Centric Game..... just no that nobody actually likes looting.

@Lulu_Lulu: it allows variety of play styles. Or you can simply repair your weapon on the go, like several games let you do.

And for your looting comment, I heavily disagree. My friends, several gamers I talk to online, and myself are a bunch of pack rats when it comes to loot games. We love to see how many unique things we can find. So yeah, some people love looting. You can't generalize simply because you hate looting.

@mastermetal777:

It doesn't "allow" it.... it forces a variety of play styles. Any game with multiple play style allow those play styles but as soon as you add limitations then you're applying unnecessary force on how people should play. Nobody wants that.

Don't confuse what awesome things people like getting from looting with people liking the process of looting itself. Looting is not an intrinsically motivating activity..... I don't care who are.... you're not going to loot for nothing. Its a gamble and thats why people like it, they get high from the anticipation of maybe getting something cool.... the shitty items you get from looting only further increases the satisfaction you get when you finally get something awesome.

You can easily swap out looting for any boring task really, you can make grinding fun with rewards aswell. You can make an entire genre appeal to someone if you stuff it with junk and hide a few good items among that junk and tell them its for them to find if they kill x number of monsters or deliver x number of messages. Its pretty much the entire concept of Free To Play Mobile games and how they keep you playing.

You're not going to make looting fun all by itself like you can with Combat, Platforming and Puzzles....

@Lulu_Lulu: We're going to have to disagree in terms of both "skill vs leveling" (I think a little bit of stats and leveling can be conducive to skill play) and on the fun of being almost forced onto a weapon set or playstyle you aren't fond of.

My favorite example for both of these points is FTL.

@Lulu_Lulu: how do you force someone to play differently if you give them the necessary tools to aid in their unique playstyle? Your argument doesn't make sense if the game allows you to continue playing the way you want it.

people play loot games in order to find such loot through the gameplay. Loot is just a reward. How you get it is the reason people play. And besides, if its fun to the player, does it really matter? Mobile games punish you with unfair difficulty spikes, whereas good games allow a small creep in difficulty that tests your newfound gear alongside the game's mechanics.

@mastermetal777:

When you have shit like breakable weapons then you are forcing people to play differently..... doesn't matter if you can fix them on the go...... this is only serves as an unnecessary inconvenience.

The whole point of looting is the Reward...... theres no fun in actually scavenging for loot..... thats why theres always going to be some type of reward you may want or need to play the game.

"And besides, if its fun to the player, does it really matter?"

Its not quite that simple....yes its fun.... at first but this leads into unethical territory very fast..... haven't you wondered why its easier to make progress in the beginning of one these types of games than it is at the end ? Its simple conditioning..... you associate boring task with something that will increase pleasure..... if done properly you can blur the lines between a game filled with fun things to do with a game that has boring things to do with the promise of something fun as a reward....... the difference is the latter isn't always fun all the time, its only fun when you get the reward and the longer you play the more you are going to associate doing something for a reward as the samething as doing something just for fun.

This doesn't just apply to mobile games.... they got the idea from MMORPGs... which basicly just means they come from RPGs..... and you already know where that debate goes.... with me atleast.

@elheber:

Skills and Stats are Inversely proprtional to each other...... yes you can mix them but you will alwayd be compromising one for the sake of the other...... people who play Skill games don't like it if somebody gets better results just because they have better gear than they do and people who like stats don't like if you make them grind for gear when sonebody can just use skill to do the samething..... atleast as far as multiplayer is concerned. Its one if the reasons people hate BattleField 4's guts.

@Lulu_Lulu: or maybe different people find different things to be fun. Maybe you've considered that at some point because otherwise how could there be different games otherwise? But then again, how could you continue to be so narrow-minded and negative if you did know and accept that? Just open your mind and quit this pointless crusade of yours.

In the case of Monster Hunter, it most certainly forces you to play differently. You can sharpen them whenever you want, but if you do it anywhere near the monster you're fighting, you're going to get creamed. I've even had to retreat to another area just so I can safely sharpen the weapon. So, it's not really always unnecessary. I view it as introducing strategy so the game doesn't just become another "hack and slash until it dies".

@mastermetal777:

Thats true..... looting just isn't one if those things and fun is not a simple concept..... I don't even like using the word anymore because it doesn't accurately describe the type of enjoyment one gets from doing something..... thats right.... you don't just have fun "just because"..... there is alil psychology behind it....

A Narrow minded person is someone who thinks there isn't a difference and brushes it off saying "in the end its fun"..... please look at your own posts for reference and stop making me it to be an idiot for trying to understand how "fun" works.

I'm not joking though..... NOBODY LIKES LOOTING !!!

@Lulu_Lulu: yeah yeah, keep deflecting. At least I don't dismiss whole genres because I perceive them as not fun. They're just not my thing, and I let people see them how they see them without saying anythung bad about the genre.

And people do like looting. Ask my friends or even me. Ask anyone who plays loot games in general. Ask people who hoard stuff in RPGs. Ask those who grab as much as their inventory will allow. I enjoy looting because I like seeing how much I can hold on to and use, either for my own needs or to sell for cash.

@JustPlainLucas:

*gently rubs temples*

I swear I feel like you're trying to kill me by giving me a stroke....... all right let me get this straight.... so instead of Monster Hunter being just another "Hack n' Slash" game its a "Hack n' Slash then run away and do some mini game to continue Hacking n' Slashing" Game ?

If I'm wrong then please correct me and save me from this head ache..... I will thank you for it.

@mastermetal777:

When did I dismiss an entire Genre ?

Okay I'l bite..... what do you and your friends find fun about looting ?

@Lulu_Lulu: Let's be clear: Stats are in every game. They are the point values a certain weapon has in damage, the time it takes to swing again, the reload speed of a gun, the reach a certain spear has, etc. Stats are integral to skill play because skilled players will game the stats. Similar weapons can have different stats and play completely differently thanks to those stats.

I think you actually mean leveling of stats. Not just leveling, but "positive-only" leveling where the base stats of weapon/character/gear/equipment/spell only get increasingly better. And I agree this is neither good game design, nor does it lend to skilled or strategic play. But if stats simply change to a different balance (like faster swing but longer repose), then that's completely different.

FTL, as an example again, has various levels of the same weapon which are more powerful, or have more shots, or pierce thicker shields, or stun enemies longer, etc. But those same higher-level weapons also carry higher power requirements, or larger charge times, etc. And although you could convince me that changing stats don't scale with skill play, I would certainly claim that at the very least they are integral in tactical play, which I consider an important form of skill.

@Lulu_Lulu: your war against RPGS and their mechanics is the biggest example.

As for looting, it boils down to our love of exploration. We go all over game maps to find unique enemy encounters, treasures, all that stuff. It's almost always to find gear/loot for our collections. We find unique gear and either equip it or store it depending on our current needs, or if it turns out to be one hell of a useful item to use for later. Spoils of war, you could call them, and to us, it's an indicator of our successful ventures into the wild, which is an intrinsic reward we can't pass up.

But hey, that's just me and my friends and several others I know. If you don't like it, oh well. That's your business. I just know what I like in my games.

@mastermetal777:

Sigh..... again.... I don't have a war against RPGs......

"As for looting, it boils down to our love of exploration. We go all over game maps to find unique enemy encounters, treasures, all that stuff. It's almost always to find gear/loot for our collections. We find unique gear and either equip it or store it depending on our current needs, or if it turns out to be one hell of a useful item to use for later. Spoils of war, you could call them, and to us, it's an indicator of our successful ventures into the wild, which is an intrinsic reward we can't pass up."

Notice how you're focusing more on the rewards than you are on the actual process of looking for stuff. Like you said.... its intrinsically rewarding.... not intrinsically motivating...... hang on let me see if I can quote myself: "Looting is not an intrinsically motivating activity"

It seems to me you're not fully aware of why you do what you do.... or if you can comprehend what the difference between reward and motivation is from an instrinsic point of view...... I'm not trying to be a dick on purpose but you just don't know what you're talking about.

Thats kind of the reason why this shit works..... because of ignorance to its effects...... but hey.... as long as you're having "fun" right ?

@elheber:

" I think you actually mean leveling of stats. Not just leveling, but "positive-only" leveling where the base stats of weapon/character/gear/equipment/spell only get increasingly better. And I agree this is neither good game design, nor does it lend to skilled or strategic play. But if stats simply change to a different balance (like faster swing but longer repose), then that's completely different."

Good.... seems like you're way smarter than mastermetal. I have no disagreements anymore..... the quoted text puts me at ease.

The Witcher 3 + Shadow of Mordor + Arkham City + Devil May Cry = Handgasms

@Lulu_Lulu: as long as the game itself is fun I don't really care how I get loot as long as the gameplay isn't boring. Again, look at my game library to see what games I play and then tell me I don't care about gameplay. But of course you won't because you'd rather make ignorant guesses about my taste in gaming.

@mastermetal777:

I'm not accusing you of not caring.... I'm accusing you of not knowing/understanding the issue I brought up. I'm picking your brain... not your library.

@Lulu_Lulu: and yet you asked me to talk about looting itself, not any related gameplay that leads to looting in the first place. If you want specifics, just say so instead of bring the arbitrary topic of gameplay.

Something that is the exact opposite to assassin's creed unity worst melee combat system I have seen in a game.

@mastermetal777:

LoL.... so now looting is gameplay ? And what are the mechanics behind looting ?

@Lulu_Lulu: it's a part of the game, so it's a mechanic of the gameplay. How it works depends on the game.

I love the freeflow combat in Arkham games (and Shadow of Mordor) but I always found it a little silly when Batman teleports onto a thug halfway across the world just to punch him, all in the same time it would take to punch a thug right next to Batman. The only characters that should be able to do this is Nightcrawler (OMG that would be a great combat system for him), and maybe Batman... because he's Batman.

If there was one thing I'd like those style of games to have is more of a focus on spacing. Like, in the Souls games or in fighting games, there's a heavy emphasis on placing yourself just within range of the enemy so you can hit them with your current weapon, but far enough that you can get out of range of their attacks. However, in freeflow combat games you rarely use the left analog on its own; you pretty much only use it in conjunction with attack buttons and dodge buttons.

@mastermetal777:

And guess what all those games have in common.

@Lulu_Lulu: you mean what all games have in common, which is gameplay. And you know what? That's all that needs to be said. Gameplay varies with each game and genre, and you wanna fit them all into a nice bubble meant only for your tastes. No thank you. Done derailing this thread. Go back to your cave, troll

@mastermetal777:

You know what..... its my fault.... I should have known that question would confuse you....

Let me be more specific.... what do all look systems have in common ?

@Lulu_Lulu: again, not gonna derail this thread any longer. You wanna discuss something, message me.

I think there's a place for looting. At its core, it's a mechanic that allows for randomization of play. If done right, it's like roguelike-lite in that how you get equipped is dependent on what you find. This as opposed to Zelda or Batman where you have equipment that you'll find in a specific chest and use in specific dungeons and on specific bosses.

For the most part, I agree with you Lulu, that looting is usually just a menial form of resupplying and oftentimes a skinner box in disguise. However, as a form of resupplying, some games integrate crafting/alchemy (Witcher) which can be inherently rewarding. Other games use pillaging off of killed enemies (Souls) as a form of resupplying to encourage combat. And even though I can't find a great example outside of indie roguelike games, getting those legendary drops from huge bosses (Borderlands) means having a new weapon that can change your playstyle.

Beat'em Up games like Bayonetta, DMC, God of War, etc. they all put a magic barrier and force you to fight enemies to move on. Even games like Zelda will often lock you in a room until you beat all monsters. But games that let you pass by or run away need to have something to encourage you into combat. Loot and drops is often a necessity for this reason.

That's precisely why I paired The Witcher 3 in it.

Has anyone found an example of a game that uses the environment really well in combat?

Most of the environments you fight in during melee combat in these games tend to be flat. Very little in the way of elevation changes, and even when it does it doesn't really change how you fight. Can anyone recount a game where the environment is integral to how you fight (like taking cover behind pillars or being able to use walls for special attacks, etc.)?

Prince of Persia Warrior Within comes to mind. Other than that, Dark Souls. Every little stone is mother nature's gift to you for covering your ass up.

"How would you design the perfect melee combat system?"

Base it on Shadow of Mordor and mix the best of the most recent Batman. Shadows of Mordor does not have grab like Batman have and Shadow of Mordor could be better with this.

It is important to say that to me, the best is Shadow of Mordor. So I'd keep the base of the fighting system of this game to design the perfect melee combat system. And also the base of the stealth system.

With addition and other new idea, I'm sure it could become even better.

@mastermetal777:

And you accuse me of deflecting...... Hypocrite.

@Lulu_Lulu: I'm not deflecting. I just don't wanna keep steering this thread away from its intended topic. If you have a problem with that, tough. Like I said, get off your soapbox and message me if you wish to continue

@elheber:

Are you telling me what I wanna hear to get me to shut up....... if you are..... its working. ;)

Anyway..... I find these systems very manipulative, when I'm looking for a game I always look for something that doesn't need to be rewarded..... thats what jobs and chores are for. When I play a game... win or lose.... shouldn't what I'm doing be more interesting than the reward I get ? I mean thats just something you don't get from a chore....

"Has anyone found an example of a game that uses the environment really well in combat?"

Yep.... and its a fighting game (so you know the combat is well designed) Dead Or Alive 5..... actually the entire series has always been big on the Environment.

I suppose I should also mentiom Injustice but I didn't like Injustice.