I am convinced companies pay people to defend their tactics.

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"] 1) I didn't comment on your posts. You commented on mine

2) You replied to my post by going completely off topic

3) You just did it again: instead of explaining how kindle, itunes and cloud storage relate to account banning, you dodged the argument and tossed yet another offensive stab at me. Actually at everyone on these board, since no one agrees with your statements and you seem to assume everyone's minds are clouded by stupidity for not agrying with your BS

capaho

And yes, by all means: let's drop the subject. It's not like this discussion is going anywhere anyway, plus there's only so many insults I can tolerate from you in a single day.

All I read was "I'm George W. Bush Jr. jr. jr. jr. jr. - If you're noth with us, you're against us"

-_____-

It is the company's decision to make it free or not dbh. But it would be nice to see more free DLC's thoughThe_Last_Ride

And they will be paid how?

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"]What happens if your account gets hacked or banned? Will cloud storage save you then?capaho

[QUOTE="capaho"][QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"]What happens if your account gets hacked or banned? Will cloud storage save you then?El_Zo1212o

[QUOTE="capaho"][QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"]What happens if your account gets hacked or banned? Will cloud storage save you then?El_Zo1212o

Security does not lies solely on the user. In fact so of the worse security breaches involved the provider. It is more common that they are the ones that get attack instead of some users. In fact some of the worse user account lost is from miss handling of the provider.

oh, and Black Knight? It would be wise to forget about arguing with Capaho- my first meeting with him proved utterly and undeniably that his arguments are perfectly proof against logic. (see the Infamous Sleeping Dogs thread for more info)El_Zo1212o

Edit: found it

[QUOTE="The_Last_Ride"]It is the company's decision to make it free or not dbh. But it would be nice to see more free DLC's thoughwiouds

And they will be paid how?

[QUOTE="El_Zo1212o"]This reply is patently false. Microsoft has shown time and again that account security lies solely with the user. How many times have I been on thisiswhyyourebanned and seen some dope claiming his account was hacked only to hear that he is responsible for any activity on his account and his perma ban stands? in a case like that, all you lose is your name and your achievments(which is bad enough) but if all your games are tied directly to your account, then losing your account can cost you thousands of dollars.capaho

I've never had a user account banned or suspended anywhere, so I don't have experience with that particular problem, but I have had problems accessing paid content on both iTunes and Kindle that were resolved quickly and courteously by Apple and Amazon respectively on the occasions when they occurred.  I expect Microsoft and Sony will also provide effective customer support when the time comes when discs are gone and all game content is DD.  The cloud hosts are responsibie for providing adequate system security and reliability and making sure you have access to the content you've paid for.  The notion that it's not possible to have a collection of DD content on a cloud host or that some account problem will cause it to disappear forever is just not accurate.  If your account is banned for online hooliganism, however, the responsibility for the consequences of that action is entirely yours.

Speaking of online hooliganism, I thought this argument had been dropped until your effort to revive it.  Mods, please take note.

What we're getting at is that an online hooligan could one day hijack your account and say, cheated at call of duty 24, then he would be instantly and permanently banned. On your account. poof! All gone. And unless they find some way to investigate whether or not it was you, they'll likely stick to the tried and true method of blaming the user for being hijacked.El_Zo1212o

Generally, accounts are banned for being hacked to disallow the hacker access while the affected account is investigated. For instance, checking IP addresses and time-stamps on logins. Those two items can tell a lot about whether an account was hacked. We moderators have been hacked a few times before (unfortunate reality of the job) and that's always the method we use to investigate such cases.

I don't think its a stretch to assume services like Steam, PlayStation Network, and Xbox Live do the same. At most, the only difference might be waiting for a customer service query from the account owner to make sure they're aware of the breach before remedying it.

This reply is patently false. Microsoft has shown time and again that account security lies solely with the user. How many times have I been on thisiswhyyourebanned and seen some dope claiming his account was hacked only to hear that he is responsible for any activity on his account and his perma ban stands? in a case like that, all you lose is your name and your achievments(which is bad enough) but if all your games are tied directly to your account, then losing your account can cost you thousands of dollars.El_Zo1212o

I've never had a user account banned or suspended anywhere, so I don't have experience with that particular problem, but I have had problems accessing paid content on both iTunes and Kindle that were resolved quickly and courteously by Apple and Amazon respectively on the occasions when they occurred.  I expect Microsoft and Sony will also provide effective customer support when the time comes when discs are gone and all game content is DD.  The cloud hosts are responsibie for providing adequate system security and reliability and making sure you have access to the content you've paid for.  The notion that it's not possible to have a collection of DD content on a cloud host or that some account problem will cause it to disappear forever is just not accurate.  If your account is banned for online hooliganism, however, the responsibility for the consequences of that action is entirely yours.

Speaking of online hooliganism, I thought this argument had been dropped until your effort to revive it.  Mods, please take note.

What we're getting at is that an online hooligan could one day hijack your account and say, cheated at call of duty 24, then he would be instantly and permanently banned. On your account. poof! All gone. And unless they find some way to investigate whether or not it was you, they'll likely stick to the tried and true method of blaming the user for being hijacked.El_Zo1212o

A hacked account can be detected upon investigation by the network security staff, in which case your account should be restored under your control.  It happens all the time with a variety of online services, it's not a new problem nor is it an unrecoverable problem.  The most common avenues of account hacking are weak passwords that are easily guessed or malware to steal user names and passwords that was surreptitiously installed on the user's computer as a result of poor security practices by the user.  Even in cases where the user is the actual hooligan, consumer regulations generally tend to protect your rights to the content you've paid for, so that shouldn't be lost even when you deserve the ban, at least not without some sort of refund or other compensation for the DD content you paid for.

consumer regulations generally tend to protect your rights to the content you've paid for, so that shouldn't be lost even when you deserve the ban, at least not without some sort of refund or other compensation for the DD content you paid for.capaho

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"]Nonsense. Here's an excerpt from the Steam EULA: (end-user license agreement) "Valve shall not have any obligation to refund any fees that may have accrued to your Account before cancellation of your Account or cessation of use of any Subscription, nor shall Valve have any obligation to prorate any fees in such circumstances." "Valve may cancel your Account or any particular Subscription(s) at any time. In the event that your Account or a particular Subscription is terminated or cancelled by Valve for a violation of this Agreement or improper or illegal activity, no refund, including of any Subscription fees, will be granted."capaho

Steam isn't an online service for consoles and EULA's don't supersede consumer law.  In any case, the EULA is clearly referring to deliberate violations by the user, which is not the issue I'm referring to.  Even if they do cancel your account for cause, regardless of what the EULA says, you may be entitled to compensation for paid content that you can no longer access in accordance with applicable consumer laws.  Otherwise, if your account gets canceled for bad behavior that you actually engaged in, it's not the system's fault, it's your fault.

"3. SCOPE OF LICENSE. The application is licensed, not sold. This agreement only gives you some rights to use the application. If Microsoft disables the ability to use the applications on your devices pursuant to your agreement with Microsoft, any associated license rights will terminate. "

Which in layman's terms means that they reserve the right to revoke all your licenses at any time, de facto terminating your access to your purchases. This also covers cessation of service (when years from now xbox live will permanently go offline, basically).

Consumer laws vary from country to country, true, but companies are smarter. For instance, the Steam EULA states:"This Section does not prevent you from bringing your dispute to the attention of any federal, state, or local government agencies that can, if the law allows, seek relief from us for you." but "You understand that you and Valve are giving up the rights to sue in court and to have a trial before a judge and jury"

Meaning you can complain but not ask anyone to take action.

[QUOTE="LazySloth718"]

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"][QUOTE="LazySloth718"]What the world needs desperately is destruction of "civilization" to let art, life and love flourish, freely without "ownership."LazySloth718

Art can't become big business without "ownership."

In becoming big business art loses its integrity, authenticity and meaning.

Michaelangelo is to EA what Leonardo Da Vinci is to Walmart.

The big owners have not only hijacked the human spirit, then have also convinced droves of people such as yourself that life can't exist without "ownership," and that "Greed is Good," that if we didn't have a bunch of overlords and uniformed thugs keeping us in line, everything would break down and nothing would work, there'd be blood flowing in the streets.

Yet for millenia humans didn't have "civilization," there was no cop on the corner, there was no corporation and no shareholders.

There was no "copyright law" when Michaelangelo sculpted David.

If the same scumbags were in charge 50 or 100 years ago you wouldn't even have public libraries or schools, books and information would be parceled out on Wall Street to the highest bidder.

Somehow our forefathers and ancestors had wisdom that we don't.

Somehow there WERE libraries and public schools.

Somehow there WAS a Renaissance.

And somehow all that is under threat because the pedophiles who run EA and Microsoft don't have enough money.

QFP

people will ignore or rail against you. people don't care about Art. people care about one thing... the thing that helps people move forward with their lifestyles, carefree, and lead their superfluously ideal and useless life. money.

Nonsense. Here's an excerpt from the Steam EULA: (end-user license agreement) "Valve shall not have any obligation to refund any fees that may have accrued to your Account before cancellation of your Account or cessation of use of any Subscription, nor shall Valve have any obligation to prorate any fees in such circumstances." "Valve may cancel your Account or any particular Subscription(s) at any time. In the event that your Account or a particular Subscription is terminated or cancelled by Valve for a violation of this Agreement or improper or illegal activity, no refund, including of any Subscription fees, will be granted."Black_Knight_00

Steam isn't an online service for consoles and EULA's don't supersede consumer law.  In any case, the EULA is clearly referring to deliberate violations by the user, which is not the issue I'm referring to.  Even if they do cancel your account for cause, regardless of what the EULA says, you may be entitled to compensation for paid content that you can no longer access in accordance with applicable consumer laws.  Otherwise, if your account gets canceled for bad behavior that you actually engaged in, it's not the system's fault, it's your fault.

Hahaha, I guess EULA are absolute 100% binding law passed on by the divine beings from the outerverse. Contract law could say otherwise. Just because an EULA says something, doesn't automatically make it true and legal.GreatExarch

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"]

Fine, you want a console version? here, knock yourself out. The XBOX Live EULA states as follows:

"3. SCOPE OF LICENSE. The application is licensed, not sold. This agreement only gives you some rights to use the application. If Microsoft disables the ability to use the applications on your devices pursuant to your agreement with Microsoft, any associated license rights will terminate. "

Which in layman's terms means that they reserve the right to revoke all your licenses at any time, de facto terminating your access to your purchases. This also covers cessation of service (when years from now xbox live will permanently go offline, basically).

Consumer laws vary from country to country, true, but companies are smarter. For instance, the Steam EULA states:"This Section does not prevent you from bringing your dispute to the attention of any federal, state, or local government agencies that can, if the law allows, seek relief from us for you." but "You understand that you and Valve are giving up the rights to sue in court and to have a trial before a judge and jury"

Meaning you can complain but not ask anyone to take action.

c_rake

We reserve the same right. From section one of the terms:

We reserve the right to remove, at any time and without notice, any content from the ServiceTerms of Use

I could delete this thread right now and have no obligation to explain why if I really wanted to (which I don't). It's simply there to protect themselves. If someone's causing trouble but is still technically not in violation of any rules, that line gives them the power to act without consequence. That doesn't necessarily mean they'll ban you for fun, though. That's not something to issue lightly and they know it. Would easily cause people to move to other services if they were prone to banning anyone whenever they wanted.

Therefore guys: you'd better pray physical copies of games won't go away for a long time.

Fine, ... take action.

Black_Knight_00

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"]

Fine, ... take action.

capaho

:x stupid manipulative creeps trying to bone the artfulness out of anything they can get their hands on. things need to be strung together by chicken wire and freaking captured and manipulated, till you don't know what you're looking at anymore, but a woven mass of crap. no interpretation, no mystery, no love, just a big mass.

Just because an EULA says something, doesn't automatically make it true and legal.GreatExarch

I can get Neptunia DLC completely free. A company making a game that niche with a stupidly small budget can give DLC for free yet companies like EA "need" the money they lose on used games? You expect me to believe that? They don't NEED the money. They WANT the money. Big difference.

If these rumors are true about the next Xbox then people won't buy it. I believe people putting up with RROD all these years and paying online charges has convinced the bigwigs at Redmond that they can get away with everything they throw at people. Well I have some news for them, there are other consoles on the market. What boggles my mind is that MS is this cocky after just one successful generation. One generation does not make them a major competitor in the long run of things (as Sega proved). Nintendo are still here and Sony have one of the strongest console brands in history. Microsoft is still a new comer. And TBH these rumors just show it. It shows major inexpirience (not only in the console market but) as a hardware manufacturer.

For the record = I had to buy Neptunia used because it was virtually impossible to buy new. But because I like it I bought the sequels new. Sorry not even the blindest fanboy on earth can defend this. If you are defending it you are being paid. If you are saying "rumors" you are living in denial.

There is only one reason an official Microsoft employee would defend such a tactic in the defensive way they did. Its a feature they will use. The fact that a lot of people expected PS4 to show up much later and Sony spilled the beans February, yet Microsoft (funnily enough) remain silent, only means they are holding something in fear of a significant backlash.

A prototype exists which has this BS feature. At this point it is obvious. Well Microsoft aren't going to get away with it. The reader of this will buy a PS4 and they know it. In fact it only adds more confirmation to the rumors of it being casual focused. They would be taking advantage of consumers who don't know any better.

quickposter

Fine, you want a console version? here, knock yourself out. The XBOX Live EULA states as follows:

"3. SCOPE OF LICENSE. The application is licensed, not sold. This agreement only gives you some rights to use the application. If Microsoft disables the ability to use the applications on your devices pursuant to your agreement with Microsoft, any associated license rights will terminate. "

Which in layman's terms means that they reserve the right to revoke all your licenses at any time, de facto terminating your access to your purchases. This also covers cessation of service (when years from now xbox live will permanently go offline, basically).

Consumer laws vary from country to country, true, but companies are smarter. For instance, the Steam EULA states:"This Section does not prevent you from bringing your dispute to the attention of any federal, state, or local government agencies that can, if the law allows, seek relief from us for you." but "You understand that you and Valve are giving up the rights to sue in court and to have a trial before a judge and jury"

Meaning you can complain but not ask anyone to take action.

Black_Knight_00

We reserve the same right. From section one of the terms:

We reserve the right to remove, at any time and without notice, any content from the ServiceTerms of Use

I could delete this thread right now and have no obligation to explain why if I really wanted to (which I don't). It's simply there to protect themselves. If someone's causing trouble but is still technically not in violation of any rules, that line gives them the power to act without consequence. That doesn't necessarily mean they'll ban you for fun, though. That's not something to issue lightly and they know it. Would easily cause people to move to other services if they were prone to banning anyone whenever they wanted.

[QUOTE="wiouds"]

[QUOTE="The_Last_Ride"]It is the company's decision to make it free or not dbh. But it would be nice to see more free DLC's thoughThe_Last_Ride

And they will be paid how?

DLC are not free make since were not apart of the game from the start and distributingthem also cost. They could lose money on this.

[QUOTE="capaho"][QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"]

Fine, ... take action.

Black_Knight_00

Never been. Do I need to be ban-prone to know my rights? Bottom line: they can throw our DD collection in the bin at any minute and there's f*ck all we can do about it, because we agreed to their terms and conditions by creating an account. Sad but true.Black_Knight_00

It wouldn't make any sense for them to do that.  How can they stay in business if they drive all their customers away by banning user accounts with wreckless abandon?  It doesn't make any sense from a business standpoint.  It would also undermine the whole point of cloud storage, which is to provide safe and secure remote storage of your important files.  Cloud storage of DD game content will likely become an important profit center for Xbox Live and Playstation Network in the not too distant future.  I fully expect that games on discs will become a thing of the past within the next few years.

Fine, get your account banned and try calling your lawyer to get it back, see if you'll succeed. Hint: you will fail. Go ahead: try.

Black_Knight_00

How can you be so sure about that if you've never had an account banned?

Sure, but that was never the point. The point was that physical copies will probably last you a lifetime. DD won't.Black_Knight_00

Discs do not provide more reliable storage than a reliable cloud host.  Discs can become damaged or lost and the physical material can degrade over time depending on the quality of the material used and the maufacturing process.  Environmental factors such as humidity, UV, radiation, temperature changes, noxious gases, ozone and changes in pH can affect the viability of discs.  Discs are far from a reliable medium for long-term safekeeping.

Fine, get your account banned and try calling your lawyer to get it back, see if you'll succeed. Hint: you will fail. Go ahead: try.

Black_Knight_00

Nothing I said was false...

It's interesting that I'm getting so much hostility over it. The whole "from divine beings" thing was a joke of course. Some people find exaggeration funny, but you might be a bit too worked up to notice.

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"]Sure, but that was never the point. The point was that physical copies will probably last you a lifetime. DD won't.capaho

Discs do not provide more reliable storage than a reliable cloud host.  Discs can become damaged or lost and the physical material can degrade over time depending on the quality of the material used and the maufacturing process.  Environmental factors such as humidity, UV, radiation, temperature changes, noxious gases, ozone and changes in pH can affect the viability of discs.  Discs are far from a reliable medium for long-term safekeeping.