Is regenerating health a sign of laziness?

This topic is locked from further discussion.

Avatar image for sakud
sakud

25

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#1 sakud
Member since 2012 • 25 Posts

If you play a game you will get hurt. This is true even in video games, although it's only your digital incarnation that gets wounded fatally. It's no big deal though because whenever you do get hit, all you have to do is hide behind an object and all your wounds are magically healed. But it wasn't always like this. There was a time when you actually had to work to gain health in a video game. There were several items at your disposal such as med kits, healing potions etc. That changed however in the year 2001 as this was the year that saw the release of a shooter called Halo. This game rewrote a lot of the rules for the first person shooter genre. Mechanics that we take for granted such as the two weapon limit, a hot button for grenades and the melee attack all owe their existence to this game. It also introduced a feature that would make video games more accessible to the casual gamer; it is called the regenerating health meter. Technically Halo did not introduce the regenerating health. In order to restore health we would still have to rely on traditional med packs but it cut us a break by equipping the master chief's power armour with regenerating shields. What was unique about the game was that just like Half-Life before it, Halo attempted to explain the reason as to how the protagonist is able to take so much punishment. Nowadays almost every game incorporates the regenerating health gauge, but is this actually a sign of laziness? I can understand how the Master Chief's power armour or Gordon Freeman's hazard suit are able to protect the user from serious injuries, but how do the protagonists of the Modern Warfare and Black Ops series survive an explosion not 5 feet away? Perhaps that was a bad example after all those games aren't about exploring a world they are more about escorting you from one mind-blowing set piece to another. A better (though not ideal) example would be a game like Skyrim. It is not a game that requires regenerating health there are already several healing items that can be used such as spells, potions and even food, also the game conveniently pauses allowing you to calmly select your healing item.

Yeah it breaks the illusion but it isn't as jarring as regenerating health. It's a relatively minor point but sometimes having a healing item in your game can really sell the realism of the its universe. For instance the healing potions in Thief really fit the fantasy setting its as if the people might actually use it to heal themselves in that time, how about in System Shock 2 where you're required to consume food, drinks and hypo sprays to heal yourself. Similarly a lot of creative ideas can be introduced if only a little thought is put into it. If you insist on using regenerating health you could follow the path of Deus Ex Human Revolution or Crysis explaining why you regenerate health over time. You could also try something different like in Max Payne. It's possible that the health meter at the bottom left corner is not a health meter at all, it's probably a pain meter and Max consumes painkillers not to heal himself but to ignore the pain. It would have been more effective if they would have shown us a scene where max treats his own wounds but I can use my imagination to fill in some of these plot holes however they are way too big in games like Call Of Duty, Battlefield, Splinter Cell, etc. for me to cover up.

I can understand that it must be pretty hard to come up with a reasonable method to regain health especially in a modern setting it would have been rather silly to use a heath potion to recover health in Battlefield 3 but may be it could have used something like in Left 4 Dead series where it takes a few seconds to recover health from med packs and painkillers can put the pain aside for a few moments that's kind of clever. You can even see the character applying the bandages to the wounds. This may seem like a trivial point to most people but it must be addressed. Aside froma select few, there aren't a lot of unique hardcore games out there. We have seen regenerating health in games for about a decade now and nothing seems to challenge it and as we know stalemate can lead to extinction. Once upon a time Gears Of War was the definitive cover based third person shooter and now Spec Ops The Line that followed the template almost exactly, is considered an average game. Using a better example the modern warfare series are now considered generic despite having great set pieces, so much so, that I am not as excited about black ops 2 as some of the others are.

In my opinion the 90s revolutionized a lot of mechanics in games perhaps that decade was filled with people that wanted to do something creative. But has the gaming industry now become a shell of its former self? Blindly following the templates set in the early 2000s to this day? Is it now rat race that cares nothing for fans but only for money? No, I certainly hope not. There are still developers out there that challenge this fad. Arguably the best example is valve software they have never used the regenerating health in their games till this day and I'm sure they wont do it in half life 3. Even Ubisoft appeared to be on the right track with Assassin's creed 2 where you actually had to go to a doctor to heal your wounds (although you did have medicine that healed you for the sake of game play). Hopefully this will continue in Assassin's Creed 3. They even take it a step further by forbidding you to heal yourself in the middle of combat. Bioware also appeared to wise up for Mass Effect 3 by dividing your health bar into five parts and if a portion is drained completely, it does not regenerate making the medigel useful for a change. It is quite similar to Crytek's Far Cry 2. That said I am not skeptical, this mechanic does have some advantages, as mentioned before it makes games more accessible widening the gaming audience and barely surviving a fight is no longer a death sentence, but it also means that your chances to improve your skills with the game are reduced dramatically because in most games the best tactic is to find a sweet spot and dig in but some games make you run by having the enemy toss a grenade at your feet that health regen ability will not help you there. All in all it is a clever mechanic when it is explained when it's not, it feels that the developers don't really care about their game's universe as much as they should. May be in a few years we will see a new trailblazing mechanic to manage health.

Avatar image for LoG-Sacrament
LoG-Sacrament

20397

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 33

User Lists: 0

#2 LoG-Sacrament
Member since 2006 • 20397 Posts

i agree that most developers dont use regenerating health for the sake of deepening their game world (although it is hard to say that finding a first aid kit is much better in this regard). however, i dont think they only do it to follow trends or widen their audience. a game over screen, load time, and a reset back to earlier in the level dont always work for the arcadey shooter templates these games so often follow. regenerating health is a way to skip past those things and keep the player in the game.

i do wish that more games would step away from making shooting as fun as possible and work the repercussions of the shooting into their mechanics.

Avatar image for Nintendo_Ownes7
Nintendo_Ownes7

30973

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 0

#3 Nintendo_Ownes7
Member since 2005 • 30973 Posts

In some games regenerating health makes sense. In other games it makes no sense to the universe it is just laziness because they don't think the players would want to look for health.

Avatar image for Shame-usBlackley
Shame-usBlackley

18266

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 11

User Lists: 0

#4 Shame-usBlackley
Member since 2002 • 18266 Posts

Regenerating health is no more a sign of laziness than leaving health kits lying around everywhere is.

Avatar image for 1PMrFister
1PMrFister

3134

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 18

User Lists: 0

#5 1PMrFister
Member since 2010 • 3134 Posts

Regenerating health is no more a sign of laziness than leaving health kits lying around everywhere is.

Shame-usBlackley
Agreed. Gameplay devices in themselves are not lazy or brilliant, it is how they are used and the effect they have the game that matters.
Avatar image for Busy_Man123
Busy_Man123

1430

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 10

User Lists: 0

#6 Busy_Man123
Member since 2008 • 1430 Posts

I don't think it's a sign of laziness. I agree it's kind of weird to see a marine being able to regen his/herself, but I guess it's because it's the standard for most fps games. It would be nice to have a balance of health packs and regen life.

Avatar image for branketra
branketra

51726

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 9

User Lists: 9

#7 branketra
Member since 2006 • 51726 Posts

>Is regenerating health a sign of laziness?

No. Some games utilize plot mechanics in order to explain regenerating health in a reasonable way while other titles include that feature so that the player will have an easier playthrough than one requiring in-game items such as potions to restore health.

Avatar image for wiouds
wiouds

6233

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#8 wiouds
Member since 2004 • 6233 Posts

No. It is foolish to try to define everything in a game to some "real"

Regenerating health just allow the player to focus on the combat more than needing crawl around looking a small object that magically restore a person health.

Avatar image for branketra
branketra

51726

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 9

User Lists: 9

#9 branketra
Member since 2006 • 51726 Posts

No. It is foolish to try to define everything in a game to some "real"

Regenerating health just allow the player to focus on the combat more than needing crawl around looking a box that somenoe restore a person health.

wiouds
I think defining video game features realistically is logical if a title is meant to mimic the real world or at least humanity's conception of any particular aspect of it.
Avatar image for Venom_Raptor
Venom_Raptor

6959

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 124

User Lists: 0

#10 Venom_Raptor
Member since 2010 • 6959 Posts

In answer to your question, no it isn't.

Avatar image for Euaggelistes
Euaggelistes

1826

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#11 Euaggelistes
Member since 2009 • 1826 Posts

[QUOTE="wiouds"]

No. It is foolish to try to define everything in a game to some "real"

Regenerating health just allow the player to focus on the combat more than needing crawl around looking a box that somenoe restore a person health.

BranKetra

I think defining video game features realistically is logical if a title is meant to mimic the real world or at least humanity's conception of any particular aspect of it.

Completely off topic: Why is the Black Panther riding the Silver Surfer's surfboard in your signature?

Avatar image for wiouds
wiouds

6233

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#12 wiouds
Member since 2004 • 6233 Posts

[QUOTE="wiouds"]

No. It is foolish to try to define everything in a game to some "real"

Regenerating health just allow the player to focus on the combat more than needing crawl around looking a box that somenoe restore a person health.

BranKetra

I think defining video game features realistically is logical if a title is meant to mimic the real world or at least humanity's conception of any particular aspect of it.

It matters for that the feature aids in the game play of the game even if it is not realistic. Being realistic is a little bit too overrated.

Avatar image for branketra
branketra

51726

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 9

User Lists: 9

#14 branketra
Member since 2006 • 51726 Posts

[QUOTE="BranKetra"][QUOTE="wiouds"]

No. It is foolish to try to define everything in a game to some "real"

Regenerating health just allow the player to focus on the combat more than needing crawl around looking a box that somenoe restore a person health.

Euaggelistes

I think defining video game features realistically is logical if a title is meant to mimic the real world or at least humanity's conception of any particular aspect of it.

Completely off topic: Why is the Black Panther riding the Silver Surfer's surfboard in your signature?

If you want to know the whole story, read Fantastic Four issues #545-546.
Avatar image for Justforvisit
Justforvisit

2660

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 3

User Lists: 0

#15 Justforvisit
Member since 2011 • 2660 Posts

What has become of the good old rpg-combination of health spell and regenerating mana? The concept itself isn't so hard to apply to other games like a modern sci fi shooter, just say your suit can heal wounds a bit but costs energy and you either have to refill the energy with batteries or wait a bit in the sunlight so the energy can recharge. Except from the healing recharging energy is absolutely realistic. Though, some games don't need to focus on realism either way.

Avatar image for Srbanator
Srbanator

790

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#16 Srbanator
Member since 2006 • 790 Posts

Perhaps you could think of regenerating health as a "likelyhood of fatal injury" meter. Every time you get "hit" you are receiving a minor injury or a near miss, and thus you are in a dangerous situation. The more dangerous the situation, the more near misses you take and thus you must remove yourself (hide) and wait for the danger of the situation to subside.

If you do not remove yourself or the danger, then you are more and more likely (screen turns redder and redder) to take a fatal hit. Factoring in hit placement it also makes sense, seeing as being shot at towards your head or chest you are more likely to suffer a major hit (thus you turn redder faster, or die instantly (head/heart).

Just my way of looking at it.

Avatar image for Archangel3371
Archangel3371

46939

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 4

User Lists: 0

#17 Archangel3371
Member since 2004 • 46939 Posts
No regenerating health is not a sign of laziness. I prefer it myself.
Avatar image for Vari3ty
Vari3ty

11111

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#18 Vari3ty
Member since 2009 • 11111 Posts

Regenerating health is no more a sign of laziness than leaving health kits lying around everywhere is.

Shame-usBlackley

Well said. I don't mind it at all, and personally think there are much bigger issues in games right now than the way health systems work.

Avatar image for Zeviander
Zeviander

9503

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#19 Zeviander
Member since 2011 • 9503 Posts
Implementation and execution is everything. Halo debuted the concept with regenerative shields and filled health and did it extremely well. Then developers like EA put that concept into Medal of Honor (WWII era) and expected it to just work (hint: it didn't).
Avatar image for branketra
branketra

51726

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 9

User Lists: 9

#20 branketra
Member since 2006 • 51726 Posts

[QUOTE="BranKetra"][QUOTE="wiouds"]

No. It is foolish to try to define everything in a game to some "real"

Regenerating health just allow the player to focus on the combat more than needing crawl around looking a box that somenoe restore a person health.

wiouds

I think defining video game features realistically is logical if a title is meant to mimic the real world or at least humanity's conception of any particular aspect of it.

It matters for that the feature aids in the game play of the game even if it is not realistic. Being realistic is a little bit too overrated.

Okay. You are entitled to your opinion. Personally, I do not think realistic games are overrated simply because they look like the real universe. If you do not want to play games such as Gran Turismo and Mass Effect, there are other titles available for purchasing such as Mario and Okami which might interest you.
Avatar image for wiouds
wiouds

6233

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#21 wiouds
Member since 2004 • 6233 Posts

[QUOTE="wiouds"]

[QUOTE="BranKetra"] I think defining video game features realistically is logical if a title is meant to mimic the real world or at least humanity's conception of any particular aspect of it. BranKetra

It matters for that the feature aids in the game play of the game even if it is not realistic. Being realistic is a little bit too overrated.

Okay. You are entitled to your opinion. Personally, I do not think realistic games are overrated simply because they look like the real universe. If you do not want to play games such as Gran Turismo and Mass Effect, there are other titles available for purchasing such as Mario and Okami which might interest you.

Regenerating health and magical healing object are both unrealistic. My point is that being realistic does not matter if a game play is better using an unrealistic part.

Does the fact Regenerating health or magical healing objects are unrealistic affect the game that much if they improve the gameplay?

Avatar image for almasdeathchild
almasdeathchild

8922

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 9

User Lists: 0

#22 almasdeathchild
Member since 2011 • 8922 Posts

it depends the game

like condemned 2:bloodshot

had a great health system imo

had bars but if you take damage it regenerates but if you kill off a bar then you must seek a medpack

i just like it that way kinda like you can take damage and recover from it,but taken enough damage you must have medical aid

Avatar image for branketra
branketra

51726

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 9

User Lists: 9

#23 branketra
Member since 2006 • 51726 Posts

[QUOTE="BranKetra"][QUOTE="wiouds"]

It matters for that the feature aids in the game play of the game even if it is not realistic. Being realistic is a little bit too overrated.

wiouds

Okay. You are entitled to your opinion. Personally, I do not think realistic games are overrated simply because they look like the real universe. If you do not want to play games such as Gran Turismo and Mass Effect, there are other titles available for purchasing such as Mario and Okami which might interest you.

Regenerating health and magical healing object are both unrealistic. My point is that being realistic does not matter if a game play is better using an unrealistic part.

Does the fact Regenerating health or magical healing objects are unrealistic affect the game that much if they improve the gameplay?

Regenerating health is not unrealistic; medical science is not yet capable of instantly healing wounds. However, some video game developers utilize their plots and settings in order to give some reasoning as to how recovering quickly from awful wounds is possible without resorting to magic or simply neglecting to explain anything at all. For example, Mass Effect's medi-gel is given a brief summary in each game. In all three, medi-gel utilizes known science while also being partially science fiction. In a game like that which is supposed to be have futuristic, yet a relatable world, realism does matter. In my opinion, that is why the franchise has done as well as it has. On the other hand, games such as Kingdom Hearts or Okami are surreal titles because of the plot, setting, and characters. If someone does not care about the story and instead is simply interested in the game features then that is their prerogative. Having regenerating health rather than in-game recovery items is a simple switch that can be seen in Halo to Halo 2. I say again that if an unrealistic game element is included in a realistic game it may improve the gameplay, but another part of the title may also be affected such as the plot which is most likely taken into consideration by developers. You personally may not care either way while others will and vice versa.

Avatar image for jun_aka_pekto
jun_aka_pekto

25255

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#24 jun_aka_pekto
Member since 2010 • 25255 Posts

No. Emphasis on multiplayer is. It takes a lot of talent and know-how to make good AI.

Avatar image for GodModeEnabled
GodModeEnabled

15314

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 9

User Lists: 0

#25 GodModeEnabled
Member since 2005 • 15314 Posts
I always liked health packs better myself. It added a more tactical element to carry them around and heal yourself as needed. Not that regenerating health is unplayable or anything but I do enjoy the old way a lot more.
Avatar image for wizdom
wizdom

10111

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 13

User Lists: 0

#26 wizdom
Member since 2003 • 10111 Posts

i agree that most developers dont use regenerating health for the sake of deepening their game world (although it is hard to say that finding a first aid kit is much better in this regard). however, i dont think they only do it to follow trends or widen their audience. a game over screen, load time, and a reset back to earlier in the level dont always work for the arcadey shooter templates these games so often follow. regenerating health is a way to skip past those things and keep the player in the game.

i do wish that more games would step away from making shooting as fun as possible and work the repercussions of the shooting into their mechanics.

LoG-Sacrament
I agree as well, the whole look around for first aid kit thing is annoying imo, so I am okay with the regen health to a certain degree, there really is no way to make it fair imo and appeal to both crowds. But I do see both sides of the coin in the this argument.
Avatar image for ristactionjakso
ristactionjakso

6118

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 39

User Lists: 0

#27 ristactionjakso
Member since 2011 • 6118 Posts

I like the idea of health packs better than health regen.

It added more challenge in Resistance 3. game was awesome.

Avatar image for Ballroompirate
Ballroompirate

26695

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 10

User Lists: 0

#28 Ballroompirate
Member since 2005 • 26695 Posts

Regenerating health is no more a sign of laziness than leaving health kits lying around everywhere is.

Shame-usBlackley

I agree, it's stupid for people to think RH is a sigh of lazy devs, but when it comes to games that have the ability to stock pile potions,limit a players inventory on health items,health packs that magically appear in boxes that aren't even made for medical supplies, so the devs aren't lazy?.

Avatar image for sukraj
sukraj

27859

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 22

User Lists: 0

#29 sukraj
Member since 2008 • 27859 Posts

I like using health packs

Avatar image for sexyweapons
sexyweapons

5302

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 7

User Lists: 0

#30 sexyweapons
Member since 2009 • 5302 Posts

I think its more about keeping the game fast paced and fun

Avatar image for Overlord93
Overlord93

12602

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#31 Overlord93
Member since 2007 • 12602 Posts
Some games suit it, others don't. In CoD, it works, but the recent ghost recon was ruined by it. It's often used to 'casulaise' games when they are too daunting for new players.
Avatar image for capaho
capaho

1253

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 4

User Lists: 0

#32 capaho
Member since 2003 • 1253 Posts

Many games would be too frustrating without regenerating health. While it is unrealistic, so is the combat action most of the time. Too many games have AI opponents who are perfect shots, they never miss. A player would never make it to the next checkpoint without regenerating health. One of the worst games I've ever played, Operation Flashpoint: Dragon Rising, had realistic casualties but that combined with too many really bad bugs that handicapped the gamer made it virtually unplayable.

Avatar image for edinsftw
edinsftw

4243

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#33 edinsftw
Member since 2009 • 4243 Posts

Its a game mechanic and alot of people like it. I peronally prefer health packs that you find around the level or an item used to heal or a skill.

Avatar image for wis3boi
wis3boi

32507

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#34 wis3boi
Member since 2005 • 32507 Posts

[QUOTE="wiouds"]

[QUOTE="BranKetra"] Okay. You are entitled to your opinion. Personally, I do not think realistic games are overrated simply because they look like the real universe. If you do not want to play games such as Gran Turismo and Mass Effect, there are other titles available for purchasing such as Mario and Okami which might interest you.BranKetra

Regenerating health and magical healing object are both unrealistic. My point is that being realistic does not matter if a game play is better using an unrealistic part.

Does the fact Regenerating health or magical healing objects are unrealistic affect the game that much if they improve the gameplay?

Regenerating health is not unrealistic; medical science is not yet capable of instantly healing wounds. However, some video game developers utilize their plots and settings in order to give some reasoning as to how recovering quickly from awful wounds is possible without resorting to magic or simply neglecting to explain anything at all. For example, Mass Effect's medi-gel is given a brief summary in each game. In all three, medi-gel utilizes known science while also being partially science fiction. In a game like that which is supposed to be have futuristic, yet a relatable world, realism does matter. In my opinion, that is why the franchise has done as well as it has. On the other hand, games such as Kingdom Hearts or Okami are surreal titles because of the plot, setting, and characters. If someone does not care about the story and instead is simply interested in the game features then that is their prerogative. Having regenerating health rather than in-game recovery items is a simple switch that can be seen in Halo to Halo 2. I say again that if an unrealistic game element is included in a realistic game it may improve the gameplay, but another part of the title may also be affected such as the plot which is most likely taken into consideration by developers. You personally may not care either way while others will and vice versa.

The Halo novels (I can't stand the games after reading them, they're great) had excellent details on the medical capabilities of power armor. It sealed off wound areas, disinfected them, and covered them with a medical foam to help clot the blood and speed up tissue recovery.

Avatar image for Srbanator
Srbanator

790

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#36 Srbanator
Member since 2006 • 790 Posts

The Halo novels (I can't stand the games after reading them, they're great) had excellent details on the medical capabilities of power armor. It sealed off wound areas, disinfected them, and covered them with a medical foam to help clot the blood and speed up tissue recovery.

wis3boi

ME1 to ME2 did the same transition that Halo did, switched from having manual medi-gel application to the suits doing it themselves over time if wounds are detected, hence Mass Effect 2 and 3 having regenerating health.

In games like that, where the setting is futuristic yet realistic, I think it's important to mix known science and science fiction to give some depth and weight to the game's world. Mass Effect and Halo do an excellent job of that.

Avatar image for deactivated-57e5de5e137a4
deactivated-57e5de5e137a4

12929

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#37 deactivated-57e5de5e137a4
Member since 2004 • 12929 Posts
No more than health packs like someone else said. The only alternative to having an "unrealistic" healing system is to have no healing system since really recovering from these injuries might take months or years. In multiplayer, I like it that way. It keeps the focus on the more interesting gameplay, instead of worrying about some quick minigame or something. Unfortunately, I don't see many game's adapting Counterstrike's damage system. In single player, the devs should be trying to not make their games annoying or boring. There's room for variety, but generally people would like to be back in the action instead of losing a few hours of progress because they ran out of healthpacks.
Avatar image for JangoWuzHere
JangoWuzHere

19032

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#38 JangoWuzHere
Member since 2007 • 19032 Posts

Nope, regenerating health is simply a far superior system for modern video games. Hunting for medpacks in games is not fun or exciting. It is far more frustrating and uneeded.