Is Stealth Only Genre Already Dead???

Note:

I'm going to discuss Stealth genre here. So, this thread is about the discussion of Stealth games only. There is no room for the discussion of Action Stealth here (apart from few examples that I will give here to prove my point, when necessary) and there is also no room for those who are not into Stealth games and prefer games that don't punish you for killing enemies.

It's OK to have different taste in gaming than the other guy but here we Stealth fans are going to talk about the said genre, and won't be having a discussion about Action Stealth. We also won't be listening to people crying about Stealth games for being "boring" because they get their asses kicked and prefer Action Stealth games instead, and think that Action heavy focus is a good thing. That's discussion for another day.

On Topic:

I think the last good high profile Stealth game that I played was released freaking ten years ago, and it was Splinter Cell: Double Agent. As we all know Splinter Cell: Conviction was over hyped mess. It had a potential of being best in the series. but instead it ended up being one of the biggest disappointments for a lot of fans of the series.

Level design in the game was absolutely terrible, there were invisible walls everywhere, your pistol had unlimited ammo, there were objectives that forced you to kill every single enemy in that area and so on. The point is,,, as a Stealth game, it was a complete disaster.

Fast forward to 2013, we got Splinter Cell: Blacklist. A game that was improvement over the Conviction but still an inferior game compared to early Splinter Cell games as far as Stealth gameplay is concerned. The game had a bit better level design but still not memorable.

There were still invisible walls, which is a complete joke in a Stealth game. I was like "WTF" when in one of the early missions I tried to head towards a street to infiltrate a building from sideways, and the game pushed me back towards the main entrance full of guards everywhere, because of invisible wall.

Invisible wall in a Stealth game? Are you kidding me? There were still some objectives in the game where you are forced to confront enemies and either disarm them or kill them. The only memorable mission in the game was towards the end, where the player dodges several lasers inside an elevator shaft. That was easily one of the best experiences in Stealth games around.

The point here is that Splinter Cell: Blacklist was an Action Stealth (or call it Stealth Action) game primarily, unlike its predecessors that were pure Stealth experiences. The reason why I mentioned Splinter Cell here is because it was one of the last Stealth franchises around and the world was already moving on and leaving a lot of genres behind including the said genre.

On other hand Thief: Deadly Shadows was the last actual Thief game. Yes, it was dumbed down compared to the previous games, yes it was glitchy as hell, yes it had quite a lot half baked features and the game lacked overall polish, but make no mistake, this was an actual Thief title and a worthy sequel to The Metal Age, which is considered as the best in the genre and the series.

Then we got a trash in 2014, that was pretending to be a Thief game but it was anything but Thief. The game tried to copy every bad design choice found modern games and past it in one game. In the end what we got was a bad game with bad mission design, bad levels, bad story and bad characters.

Video Link

The game was targeted for dumb audiences and what really sucks is that, it wasn't even a good mindless game for dumb audiences. It was a poorly put together game with bad gameplay and poor writing. There were times when you were blocked by a single chair and were forced to take another route because Garrett the Master Thief couldn't climb or move that chair. These features were available in The Dark Project, almost EIGHTEEN years ago, but not in this game,,, because reasons.

We also got Dishonored. I am really excited for Dishonored 2, not because Dishonored was a masterpiece, but because it showed potential. It was decent but more importantly it showed the possibility of its sequels becoming something much better because of the feedback from community, after the release of the original title.

Now I understand that a lot of people think that it was an amazing game and one of the best among Stealth genre, but as a player who've played original Thief games, and early Splinter Cell games as well as Tenchu series, I can't help but think that Dishonored was Thief: Lite Edition. Level design is not as good as in The Metal Age and more importantly, it was also an Action Stealth game that didn't prevent you from killing enemies. TBH, the game had far more exciting killing animations and action upgrades, than it had stealth animations and stealth upgrades,

On other hand, Hitman was never a Stealth only franchise. You could always kill your target or complete other objectives by sneaking through the whole level or killing every single one of your enemies that were in your way. But the problem with Absolution was that it managed to dumb even THAT franchise down by making it more linear and cinematic experience. It really shows how much modern industry is desperate to leave Stealth and its most important pillar "non linearity" behind.

In recent years we also got Styx: Master of Shadows that many consider as one of the better Stealth only games. The problem with Styx on launch was that it had bad controls and poor ledge detection. Poor ledge detection for a game that contains a lot of platforming is not a good idea, which became one of the reasons why the game was poorly received on launch despite having a good story, Stealth only focus, great level design and a lot of secrets.

But the good news is that developers later patched the game and fixed its controls, ledge detection and other issues that the game had. In the end it turned out to be a pretty good Stealth game, and its sequel is already in the works. But nobody knows if the devs will take the feedback seriously and will deliver a well polished worthy successor on launch instead of a buggy mess. Either way, I'm interested.

So it seems like Stealth genre overall is not doing so well, especially in mid-tier/AAA market. So, my question is, do you think that Stealth genre is already dead and we will never get a well made Stealth game ever again because pubs want to make more money, and a lot of people whine about Stealth games kicking their ass when they are detected, which leads to less sales? I find it pretty odd when people complain about lack of "good" combat in a Stealth game. Discuss.

I consider the new Hitman a stealth game and it appear to be popular. Although in my case, I think it's too boring.

For Theif, the problem was some aspect of the game was unfinish and the IA was retarded.

The problem you have is a high stealth game with very little action just doesn't sell like it used to. Thief (original) was awesome. The latest one was mediocre at best. Stealth doesn't sell like it used to so it's always something on the back burner when it's put into games. Stealth = low need/want and Action/Fighting/Fast moving = high on the need/want list and it sells.

The other game that probably had some of the best stealth mechanics and stealth game play was Riddick: Escape from Butcher Bay. Granted there was a lot of action in the game, it had great stealth game play built into it. You could certainly go through the game guns blazing, but the stealth aspect of the game is what made it great for me. Too bad the second Riddick game, Assault on Dark Athena, fell way short on the stealth.

Well said. But I think there is still market for Stealth genre. I don't want them to spent over 100 million dollars on a Stealth game but I think it's possible to make a great Stealth game on a decent budget. Unfortunately, as Chris Roberts said pubs don't want to make 10 million dollar game and earn 50 million in return. Instead they want to make 100 million dollar game and earn 800 million in return.

I hate cinematic sequences and cutscenes, games should leave control to the player at all times, like Half Life

Not sure, to be honest; I wrote something here on the "blog" section years ago here proclaiming that the genre was dead, but I've kind of changed my mind.

Obviously with games such as Splinter Cell going in the terrible direction they went, stealth is dead. Light gems, sound indicators...can't remember the last time I saw them. Pure stealth, as you specified, might very well be dead.

It used to be, in many stealth games, that combat was death, so you wanted to avoid it. Maybe in rare isolated incidents you could take on a lone guard, but for the most part if you were spotted, you'd get swarmed, and you'd have to either run away or reload a save.

On the other hand, modern stealth games seem to be a bit more practical. Discovery is not death, but challenge, and games have incorporated ways to make your play style "stealth lite" (don't like using the term "lite" but oh well...). Dishonored was a good example of this: you could play the entire game without killing hardly anyone, sticking to the shadows, using stealth powers; or you could sneak and fight to your liking. I enjoy things like this for providing options, and an acceptable (if not great) level of stealth.

But yeah it has been a long long time since I've played what I would call a "pure" stealth game.

@employee427: I hate every time I see that in the game. It break immersion so much and it worthless.

Small wonder the ADHD generation can't get into pure stealth games.

I would not say stealth game were that popular even in the old game,

ADHD that is overgeneralizing base on extremely bias ideals.

Agreed. I think there is room for both kind of games but the problem is, modern industry is focusing too much on cinematic games, and real time interactions like in Thief, Half Life or System Shock etc are being ignored. It's all about getting the balance right. Of course, if given a choice, I'll always go with system based non linear games over cinematic games. Getting tired of on rail experiences.

The new Hitman solves most of Absolution's problems. With a few more good missions, it will be a solid successor to Blood Money.

There are also some really good indie stealth titles out there. Invisible Inc is the first that comes to mind.

Did they fix the stupid disguise system that would cause a random street cook to call SWAT on you if he saw you dressed as a street cook?

I am on the other side I would go with linear game over the limit choose system out there. I find elements of game play to be much better that way because they give the developer more control. That is why I like more lienear shooters.

I would go with cinematic since they make me more immersed into the story and setting. I never want a experience like when you had to force on rail in Haft Life 2. I do not want pointless control with just one camera angle.

Then again Level design for Shooters have push past Haft life 2 and it very limit on rail style of game play.

Half Life 2 never had a complex level design to begin with. Its main focus was always a story driven fast paced action. Half Life 2 is a linear game and a good one at that. What employee427 wanted to say was that, Half Life games tell story in real time during gameplay without taking control away from you. It's not like you walk for few minutes and then cutscene appears where you sit back and watch it. Instead everything happens during gameplay. You can either watch stuff or completely ignore it. Characters also react to you in realistic way.

(Not the best video out there, but just wanted to show character interaction in real time, that makes the game more immersive)

As for level design in modern shooters,,, I think it's terrible. Shadow Warrior 2 seems like a step in the right direction but overall 99% AAA shooters these days force you to move in straight line and place some cutscenes (or collectables in some areas here and there) in between point A and B. Compare this to phenomenal level design of Thief 2 or System Shock 2, then you'll see what I'm talking about.

As for linear vs non linear discussion,,, well it depends on one's preference, and respect yours.

Have you even played HL2? Because nothing you said is accurate to the game. Also, shooters have gotten WORSE since half life 2 in terms of level design.

@employee427: Yeah I agree. Level design in games went downhill after 2007.

@Cloud_imperium: Download some Thief 2/Dark Mod fan missions and forget about modern AAA when it comes to anything remotely niche. (aside from the odd Souls game or whatever)

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/thief-2-fan-missions-and-campaigns.51965/

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/true-thief-4-is-released.86948/

pubs don't want to make 10 million dollar game and earn 50 million in return. Instead they want to make 100 million dollar game and earn 800 million in return

Here is your answer right here. In turn they have to dumb down the games to try and sell them to everybody, in effect removing the aspects which made the games/genres so great to begin with in the first place.

They want to drive around in Ferraris and couldn't give 2 shits about the actual games. As long as tons of kiddies and casuals are sucking it down, that's all that matters.

i love stealth games and it breaks my heart to see the genre get bastardised with compulsory action requirements to appease the hard of thinking. blacklist was so predictably disappointing and another huge step further away from the glory days of pandora tomorrow and chaos theory. and i know exactly the bit you're talking about when you tried to infiltrate a compound from the side and got blocked by invisible walls. but that's modern ubisoft for you. clueless.

there is one game conspicuous by its absence from the op and that's mgsv. there was some deeply satisfying and reasonably original dynamic stealth gameplay in there. it kind of got overshadowed by the repetition though. also crysis shouldn't be discounted from the list of great stealth games in the past ten years. being able to cloak opened up a whole new dimension to the gameplay.

as far as the future goes it looks a little on the bleak side. i'm disappointed with the episodic nature of the new hitman so won't be picking that up until the hard copy arrives at the end of the year. and for some reason i can't get overly excited by dishonored 2, despite loving the first game. if it doesn't stray over into an action hybrid and sales are good that, in addition to mgsv, may be the catalyst the genre needs to encourage other devs that they don't need to conform to that frustrating breed of modern gamers who find strategised, dynamic, multi-path based gameplay boring

What you didn't like my "force on rail in Haft Life 2" hint. I was literally talking about how it force you to step onto a on rail section even-through you hanging from the rail. You know that part of the game where you lost all control but to move the camera and you can only watch an unskippable cut scene from a single camera angle. Here one more hint it is at the end of the game and it is not the only one.

I like the wider range of options offered by current shooters' level design than Haft life 2 style of many narrow hallways from point A to point B.

You mean in Dr. Breen's office? It's like 30 seconds long...

Current shooters dont have a wider range of options though. You just walk forward and shoot people.

I am talking about the entire part from that to the end if the game where all you can control the camera angle. The one that last for a few minutes and have the same poor camera angle the whole time.

Thank you for tell me how Haft life 2 play but I am talking about current shooters.

Slap me for not checking out Dark Mod. It was on my radar but then I forgot about it. Thanks for the reminder.

And I agree with rest of your comment.

@Macutchi: @bussinrounds:

Great posts from both of you guys. I'll leave this here for you guys to check out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPqwDGXxLhU

Yes.

Now, each disguise means that certain NPCs might scrutinize you. So a waiter outfit might not be questioned by cops or cleaners, and you'll even be able to slip by a lot of other waiters, but every so often you'll find someone who knows their staff well enough to suspect you.

Even then, you're given a grace period like the earlier Hitman games.

Sounds more reasonable. Hopefully it works.

Would you consider horror games such as outlast as being in the stealth genre? Although it doesn't have the level of mechanics as the older splinter cell games, it does rely on you not being seen and lacks the combat or action sequences that mar modern stealth titles. Just curious as to people's thoughts on this.

@Cloud_imperium: great video, it's sad to see how we've lost a lot of the subtleties and idiosyncrasies that collectively helped define classic games from the past. the modern thief game was one of the most disappointing releases in years for me. why eidos didn't have people on their team that were huge fans of the originals to help guide them in keeping the essence of the early games is just beyond me. talk about an opportunity lost.

@joe_b1_kenobi: good point, i'd forgot about alien isolation in my earlier post. easily the most atmospheric stealth games in the past few years with some very accomplished stealth mechanics

Thief was biggest disappointment of all time for me. I've pointed out a lot of flaws in my review as well. It's the perfect example of how not to make a game. It's full of bad design choices and poor cliched writing, featuring generic main villain with big Moustache and broken leg.

Thief 1,2,3 were not only phenomenal in gameplay but also had clever writing where main bad guys were nature, science and miss use of knowledge respectively, not some idiot with shitty dialogues like "I'll get you next time Garrett" or "We are not so different, you and I".

Yeah, Creative Assembly did a great job with Alien: Isolation. Loved that game. Too bad it under performed in sales. Here's hoping that Styx 2 will be great.

@Cloud_imperium: That's a very good video and I agree with most of the points (I don't think it's for a lack of understanding that modern developers don't develop games like this anymore, but because of the results of playtesting and a change in player demographics etc).

I never got into the Thief games unfortunately. But it seems to me like Eidos made a pretty big blunder by destroying what the Thief brand stood for. They should have gone all in on creating the most hardcore stealth game they could. That crown would have moved copies, just as brutal difficulty has worked for Dark Souls.

I really love stealth and they seem to be popular among fans too . non linearity and strategic gameplay that makes you feel smart always works . remeber when Hitman Absolution came out and took out Blood money's brilliant open gameplay most people bashed it and wanted the old Hitman back . and as you can see the new hitman took the path of Blood money . you still have the option of not being fully clean and stealthy ... but where is the fun in that .
overall i agree with you that the market can have a few more Stealth games . even in action and shooter games adding some stealth flavor makes people like it more ( for example stealth sniping mission in COD4 ) . and we Dishonored 2 and Deus Ex mankind Divided coming out that are pretty popluar games .
so stealth games aren't dying , I think most people enjoy them . I hope we get couple of new franchises coming with pure stealth and strategic gameplay . I'm sure they will be welcome among gamers .

I've been replaying Thief 2 of late, and it truly is such a great game. The first two are two of my favorite games of all times. Hard, and fun. I enjoyed Dishonored a lot, but I think like a lot of stealth fans I found the stealth mechanics decent enough but don't view the game as a DEEP stealth title. There are too many easy ways out, for example, for the stealth to feel as meaningful as it does in games like Thief. I really liked it as a game, though, and I hope in Dishonored 2 they continue to refine the formula.

I do not think so......

Yeah, I agree with you. Exactly my thoughts.

For me, MGSV is the absolute best stealth game I've ever played. Yes, it's not the hardcore stealth only type but wow, the AI in this game is so good. Enemy detection range is great and the number of variables you have to consider is so much more than what any other stealth game can give you. Weather effects, time of day, camo index, knocking over chairs, fultoning things which the enemy will report as missing... It's incredible. The thing is, for me the old stealth games like chaos theory are awesome and I would still enjoy them today but in a way I wouldn't really call them a "stealth" game.

I would rather call them a puzzle stealth game. You move around, consider the variables, notice guard patrol patterns and go execute your plan. You failed? Well reload last save cuz you're 80% screwed and gonna die. It's so different in mgsv. The AI behaves in a much more believable manner and the game tests you to adapt. There are so many variables and they change on the fly. The great thing is the game gives you enough tools to adapt to every situation. That imo is what makes mgsv more attractive as a stealth game than others out there.

that's a great point. mgsv really demonstrates how sophisticated ai can really contribute to create challenging dynamic gameplay experiences. there's only alien isolation that i can think of that has ai as challenging. both result in some really unpredictable yet believable scenarios which makes outsmarting them even more satisfying