Microsoft: You don't need to own studios to make great games

I don't want to lie by omission about something like that, so I tell you that while I knew a lot of military guys, but I worked for a different group. No point going into boring details.

I am fully aware of the initial gamer response to Steam because I disliked it in the beginning as well. Because it wasn't a good service. I never said or implied that it happened overnight. It was a process that took several years. In the end we got a great service.

Saying that Steam didn't have competition doesn't really mean much since PC is an open platform. For a long, long time only Valve games required Steam and yet people still used it and bought games on it. And even though Steam is dominating, it has plenty of competition. But it is dominating because it is the best. Both gamers and developers recognized that. Simple as that.

The reaction Microsoft got didn't have much to do with Sony at all as their stance on the matter wasn't even known at the time. How they handled it was simply wrong. On PC, the move to digital distribution was a lengthy process which provided many incentives and Microsoft tried to do it overnight with an audience fully accustomed to traditional retail distribution with barely any real incentives. You just can't do it like that. I already talked about this back when it was a hot topic. In my opinion, Microsoft missed the boat with the 360 which they could've used as a transitional platform. They didn't, Xbox Live offerings throughout the years were absolutely horrible, so it was no wonder most people reacted the way they did. It was a new scary thing for most people and considering how digital distribution historically worked on consoles, I don't blame them.

This is simply not true. It's just standard Microsoft official policy which dates back to the original Xbox. I live in a country in which Xbox, Xbox 360 and Xbox Live are officially not supported, but they all work normally. Everything Microsoft said about the Xbox One regarding this policy they also said about Xbox and Xbox 360.

This. Microsoft's problem was they went too far too fast. A transition as large as the move to a fully-digital platform needs to be taken slowly. That's why the Xbox One's original plans failed. Sony's decision to avoid similar policies only further solidified its failure.

*Shrugs* I'm just taking Microsoft at their word, same as the most of the rest of the world did (the country restriction is one of the things they 180ed on).

http://metro.co.uk/2013/06/13/xbox-one-will-only-work-in-21-countries-at-launch-3839195/

The official Pre-Order Product Information for the Xbox One reveals that the new console requires an ‘account on Xbox Live in an Xbox One-supported Xbox Live country (not all Xbox Live countries).’

The problem is there are only 21 supported countries at launch (depending on who you ask there are around 206 countries in the world) and that doesn’t include Portugal, Poland and most of Eastern Europe, or Japan and the rest of Asia.

------------

Robert Hallahan @

il_cattivo

@XboxSupport But say someone from Poland, not listed, imports it from the UK. Will they be able to play disc-based games?

Xbox Support (1-5) ✔ @XboxSupport

@il_cattivo They would want to wait until the console is available in their region. ^PS

Like I said, this has been their official stance since the beginning. The wording is actually very precise, note that it never flatout says "the console will not work", but rather you need an account. So you just make a UK or American or whatever account and it works fine. The support rep also carefully dodges the question and just regurgitates the official line.

The American and British sites that reported this aren't in such areas so they have no idea how this works, so they just assumed it means that the console won't work.

So MS lied to consumers to make the Xbone sound worse than it was? That's a very odd strategy for a company trying to sell consumers a $500 luxury item in a very competitive environment.

Maybe there's something to those rumors about Phil Harrison being a mole trying to bring down MS from the inside....

As I've observed before, the problem isn't just marketing, its focus. MS uncharacteristically did not make the Xbone easy to program for and the cheaper hardware hasn't resulted in a cheaper price. On the contrary, an expensive camera of little utility for most games has pushed the price well past that of the PS4.

The importance of hard to program for cannot be overstated. We live in an era of multiplatform development. For exclusive games developers and publishers are more likely to push back a game in order to get it right (if the Xbone is the only platform, releasing a shoddy Xbone game is a kind of insane) but for multiplat games, there is less inclination to postpone ('That one platform is hard to develop for, so we'll hold up all six versions of the game!' isn't a line that is going to be said many times). The Battlefield and CoD developers revealing info about resolution MS clearly didn't want consumers to have hints that those guys are pissed and want MS to hurry up fix the development tools. They are undoubtedly putting in lots of extra hours in order to try to work around problems MS could have avoided if it had talked to them (or anyone else who programs games, including its internal teams) as it designed the system (as Sony did).

As for your talk about value added features, gamers/consumers have no problem with additional value, but they don't like paying additional money. The PS3's Blu-ray player is one of the reason the PS3 cost more than the X360, but it didn't clearly benefit games, so Sony had to wipe out the price differential. Based on historical evidence, I don't believe MS can get away with charging a premium for the Kinect. Nobody complains about current gen consoles being able to run Netflix or what have you because those who don't care about Netflix aren't paying for it. The $100+ that the Kinect is costing each and every Xbone buyer is and is going to remain a sore spot for many gamers until/unless a Kinectless SKU is offered.

Also, as I've said many times before, big companies have talked about one piece of hardware to rule them all since the dawn of the PC, but it hasn't happened. As a matter of fact, the opposite has happened. People have way more bits of tech than ever before because people who are passionate about things buy dedicated technology which does those things exceptionally well. All cellphones and tablets have cameras, but people who really care about photography buy dedicated cameras. Cellphones, PC and tablets can be used to read books, but many people that love to read own Kindles.

Yes, what's most important is the games, but MS's choices are making getting to the games harder for developers and more expensive for consumers, and that is going to have consequences.

Think you do for high budget games

They didn't lie, they were just continuing their "official" stance about "official" support in "officially" non-supported regions. Again, if you went and asked the same question about the Xbox 10 years ago or Xbox 360 5 years ago, Microsoft's response would've been the same (and I've seen it while I was doing research before buying both consoles). It was just business as usual for them, only this time it got blown up into a huge thing. Which is hilarious because nobody gave a shit about non-supported regions until it became fashionable to hate everything about the Xbox One.

I realize you both have a point. But the policies MS intended to use is not something that they can active after the fact, they would have a lawsuit on their hands. It was something they had to show up front. So you think it would have been better for them to wait another 7-8 years? I suppose they could have put a timeline together planning out feature that would be enacted when ready.

Either way, we gamers that are active on forums like this understand what MS was trying to do, they just screwed up implementing it and the connected message. Must people didn't understand, flipped out, and decided to buy a PS4 instead. MS lost some fans for life cause people think they are 'evil.' That is the real way the MS messed up.

This is a great way to state what may happen concisely, if the ESRAM really is as troublesome as some think it will be. I still don't think $100 will dissuade most families but who knows.

Yes, a company deliberately encouraging a derogatory misunderstanding of its own product (which you yourself stated was what MS did just yesterday) is hilarious though not as hilarious as claiming that those who believed the misinformation (pretty much everyone in the mainstream and specialist media and big chunk of the internet) did so only because it was fashionable and not out of honest belief (honest belief was your position yesterday, but I take it something changed for you between now and then).

http://www.theverge.com/2013/6/14/4429218/xbox-one-may-not-work-in-unsupported-countries

The Verge contacted Microsoft for clarity on the geographical issue, asking whether the system is IP-locked and if it could be used outside a supported country, and was provided with the following statement on region-locked games:

Similar to the movie and music industry, games must meet country-specific regulatory guidelines before they are cleared for sale. We will continue to work with our partners to follow these guidelines with Xbox One.

Since the statement did not address our concerns directly, The Verge followed up with a pointed question about whether the console would be functional in all parts of the world. Microsoft responded with an updated statement:

At this time, we have announced Xbox One will be available in 21 markets in November this year and additional markets later in 2014. Similar to the movie and music industry, games and other content must meet country-specific regulatory guidelines before they are cleared for sale - which means that games will work in the broad geographic regions for which they have been cleared, much as today with Xbox 360. While the console itself is not geographically restricted, a user's Xbox Live account, content, apps and experiences are all tied to the country of billing and residence.

I am sure microsoft makes quality games.We have to trust the game produced by microsoft and we will get the feedback also.And thanking all of you

No, the media didn't believe any misinformation as Microsoft NEVER claimed that the thing won't work in non-supported regions, they SPREAD misinformation because they were clueless about the FACT that this policy WAS IN STATE AND HAS NOT CHANGED since the original Xbox. And pouncing on any bad news when the bad news floodgates open (about anything) isn't that strange at all, it's actually quite a common occurrence. Is that what happened? I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised. Maybe it was just an honest mistake, most likely it was just poor journalism as usual. It is just strange that the media and all the forumites concerned about us gamers living in non-supported areas weren't so concerned before Xbox One when in reality we've had to deal with the EXACT SAME THING since the first day of Xbox Live - which is again confirmed by this official line you found.

which means that games will work in the broad geographic regions for which they have been cleared, much as today with Xbox 360.

This line pretty much cements the question. All these "journalists" should've done to see if the Xbox One will work or not could've done some actual research (instead of just sending a mail to Microsoft and calling it a day) and simply asked someone from a non-supported country what's the deal with the 360 in such areas. Oh, it all works fine, ok then.

@UpInFlames You cant be serious. What research? The console wasn't even out yet. The only one who knew where it would work was Microsoft themselves. And they asked Microsoft for first hand information like they should. Stop blaming Journalists for doing their job and doing it right.

Also, why would they look at how it worked historically when the DRM measures Microsoft implemented had no historical precedence whatsoever. The whole reason this became a story was because Microsoft themselves stated it would not work.

Xbox Support themselves said that the console would not work in unsupported countries.

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2013/06/12/cd-projekt-red-reacts-to-lack-of-xbox-one-in-poland.aspx

@S0lidSnake

I'm not really caught up with the dispute you're having with @UpInFlames, but if you seriously think the next gen console journalism these past several months was anything other than shoddy, terrible and lackluster, I don't know what to tell you.

The Xbox One PR has been a nightmare. That's Microsoft's fault, there's no two ways of looking at it. But the journalism surrounding the Xbox One was (and has been) unquestionably embarrassing.

There were at least a hundred articles produced over a two month window on many websites (GameSpot included) all relating to the Xbox One. Now, I could sit here and get into the finer points of rumor reporting, and talk about how there's a "proper" method to detailing any bit of information professionally, even the pieces of news that are unconfirmed. But why?

Let the data provide the evidence. At 50, I stopped counting the number articles GameSpot produced over the months of June-August. I wasn't even close to finished. Look for yourself.

I'm sorry, but the Xbox One just isn't that interesting. Neither is the PS4. Many websites were producing multiple Xbox One articles daily for MONTHS.

The reality, sadly, is that nothing gets website traffic like an Xbox One article. Surely you wouldn't doubt this? Here's the only article on GameSpot above 500 comments over the weekend. http://www.gamespot.com/articles/microsoft-confirms-cd-playback-and-dlna-support-for-the-xbox-one/1100-6415927/

Proof is proof, and you can look back as far as you want on any popular gaming website. Xbox One = traffic. You're a gaf guy, so you should already know this but, which threads get the most replies? Need we discuss the CoD: Ghosts 1080/720 thread?

If you want website traffic, write something about the Xbox One. Once this fact is established, trusting journalism to stay "honorable" is naive. The aforementioned proper methods of rumor reporting get thrown out the window because, hey, everyone else is doing it. Not reporting on it would be not doing the job.

Look, GameSpot and CBS Interactive are businesses; businesses that seek to make profit.

And all I can say is... So. Much. Ad. Revenue.

@experience_fade: I have no idea what this has anything to do with the topic at hand.

If anything this shows how much you guys suffer from persecuction complex. OMG reporters reporting bad things about the Xbox. How dare they?!!!

This is starting to sound more and more like Fox News and their viewers complaining about the so-called Lamestream media covering all the bad things the republican do. Us vs them complex.

It's hilarious how instead of simply accepting everything that is/was wrong with the Xbox One, you have taken up the torch to 'expose' the media for reporting the facts about X1's weaker specs and anti-consumer policies. This is truly unprecedented. We have now reached a point where reporting facts and keeping the consumers well-informed is considering bullying and picking on poor old Microsoft.

Keep fighting the good fight. It's getting sadder by the day.

@experience_fade: So, what -- they shouldn't report anything about the Xbox One? How would you handle things then?

Guys, its worth keeping in mind that the Xbone article under discussion is extremely positive (the Xbone boasting better multimedia functionality than the PS4) and is written because MS PR is taking advantage of recent negative news about the PS4 (that it lacks even the multimedia functionality that the PS3 has).

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/ps4-doesn-t-support-external-storage/1100-6415872/

Also, its worth remembering that multiple articles tend to spring up when there is confusion. If a company goes into lengthy, ambiguous legalese when answering a simple question or gives multiple conflicting answers then a lot of articles will be written by people giving their interpretations of what the company's actual position is. If a company keeps it simple then while people will still argue over whether a policy is good or bad, there won't be debate over what it is.

God I love that commercial. it really underscores how easy it is to get your message across when you have nothing to hide. MS got bad press because they knew their policies would generate bad press and just couldn't give a straight answer about anything. Case in point the 10 player family sharing plan giving access to 10 of your friends. We never could get the details from MS despite the journalists and fans consistently asking them for it. But if you heard Alex back in the day, you would've thought it was it was basically a done deal.

A fanboy of what...?

Microsoft never said that it would not work. The official Microsoft line Carnage provided doesn't say that neither does the Xbox Support rep you linked to said that. They just keep regurgitating their official stance that's been in place since the original Xbox.

Region locking is not a new thing and Microsoft itself stated (as provided by Carnage) that Xbox One games will work the same way as Xbox 360 games, so yes, looking into how the 360 functions in officially non-supported areas was crucial and would've solved all the debate. But if you think that journalism consists of nothing but sending e-mails to a corporation when there are issues and unknowns about their product and then just reporting what they say, then I don't know how to even respond to that. Game journalism is barely journalism at all, but if you think otherwise, cool. But are these the same journalists you're accusing of being unprofessional regarding that Xbox One resolution thing or some different ones? Eh, I don't even care.

But this debate has become tiresome. If you want to believe that the Xbox One would not work when it crossed a certain border, fine. Don't take the word of someone who actually lives in a non-supported area and has dealt with the same thing since the first Xbox. I mean, an American game journalist must know better.

UiF, reading links in a post before you respond is a good idea.

CD Projekt Red is based in Poland and is working on an Xbone game and they somehow lacked your absolute faith that the Xbone would function in Poland out of the gate.

Like every other gamer, they had no choice but to take MS's word about how Microsoft's future console and online service would run.

Yes I read it, thank you. Poland is an officially supported Xbox Live country so Iwinski wouldn't know how the Xbox and Xbox 360 worked in non-supported countries either.

Seriously guys, you're talking about something you have zero firsthand experience with. There's always the official company line and then there's the real world.

*Shakes head* Your faith really is unshakeable. For the sake of anyone else who wanders into this thread, I will point out that Poland didn't join the ranks of officially supported countries until November 2010 so many Polish X360 gamers are familiar with the experience of being outside of an officially supported region on the X360. Of course, that had nothing to do with whether or not the Xbone (a new system and a revised XBL) would have worked in Poland.

I played XBL out of area as well (in Colombia, Honduras and Guatemala back before they were officially supported countries), yet somehow that experience didn't allow me to know how MS's new policy for a new system would play out. The same could be said for a lot of Americans who have lived abroad in developing countries.

Your belief in MS no matter what they tell you is admirable in a sense and I hope they continue to earn the absolute trust you have placed in them.

http://www.gamersmint.com/xbox-live-service-set-to-launch-in-10-new-countries-in-nov-10-includes-russia-and-Poland

Microsoft has also posted a guide for Migrating your current account -

Migrating Your Account We want everyone to have fun. If you live in one of nine new LIVE markets and already have a LIVE account through a different region it will be possible to migrate your account to join the official LIVE network in your country.

When you migrate your LIVE account you get to keep your profile, gamerscore, achievements, points balance and subscription time remaining. You also get to keep any downloaded content such as your avatar items, Arcade games, and game add-ons.

@UpInFlames:

Again, you are disregarding the word of the official Xbox twitter account because you think you know more than they do? If an MS rep says the console would not work, I am inclined to believe them more than the guy whose only qualification is that he bought two consoles that did not require a daily online validation.

And that is the main thing you seem to be missing…. The Daily online check in. Do you know if the info for the console that you bought in Croatia would’ve been stored in a U.K server? Or U.S? MS was obviously going to keep a record of your console serial number along with all the games you have purchased. This needs to be stored in a specific server that would’ve been called on a daily basis. MS needs to have full control of which server you need to connect to. They knew it. We knew it. Everyone except for you apparently.

I will never take your word for it because like I stated earlier this has no historical precedence whatsoever. There are always unknowns when it comes to these things and it is the journalist’s job to keep us informed and when the only source is the company itself then yes posting their word verbatim is the correct thing to do. If it wasn’t true then the company could be then held accountable. Journalism 101. Now they are playing down the resolution advantage is a different story because they are choosing not to cover the story and keeping their readers uninformed. I wonder if these same people think that the casuals who purchase a new iPhone every year do not need to know that the new iPhone screen is 2.5k. Or what RAM its using or how powerful the processor is compared to the new SAMSUNG phone. Because EVERYONE even mainstream media covers stuff like this. It’s about keeping the consumers informed. When tech sites that do nothing but PC benchmarks come out and say the 720p-1080p advantage is nothing to be concerned about then yes, they aren’t doing their job.

@S0lidSnake:

I think his point is that their tends to be more Xbox One related articles posted on gaming sites. I see this all the time using my Pulse widget, which pulls updates on gaming sites.

We get that the Xbox One has had its share of bad news, but having anything Xbox related seems to be a way for sites to generate increased foot traffic. For example, a youtube video of the PS4 overheating, with a game freezing during a demo was released earlier last month. I read little about this on the net. But could you imagine if this was an Xbox One demo video!? Just saying.

Oh, please spare me your drivel. Have you provided proof that indicated that Xbox One won't work in non-supported countries? No, just a bunch of conjecture and Microsoft saying that it'll work the same as the 360.

Xbox twitter support guy didn't say that it won't work, he said that you won't have the same experience and it "may not work" indicating that he is not quite sure himself. And a support rep is hardly an official statement, come on. Microsoft clearly said in a statement to The Verge that it will work the same as the 360.

You guys got nothing. Just a bunch of conjecture.

@UpInFlames: No, you dont have anything. We have given you the official word.

Here is the full twitter exchange.

Xbox support guy is not official word (and he still did not say that the console won't work, period). Carnage provided an official statement straight from Microsoft:

At this time, we have announced Xbox One will be available in 21 markets in November this year and additional markets later in 2014. Similar to the movie and music industry, games and other content must meet country-specific regulatory guidelines before they are cleared for sale - which means that games will work in the broad geographic regions for which they have been cleared, much as today with Xbox 360. While the console itself is not geographically restricted, a user's Xbox Live account, content, apps and experiences are all tied to the country of billing and residence.

This thread seems to be going off-course.

lol are you reading the same thing I am? The games themselves were confirmed to be region-free after the initial reveal. It has always been the console’s 24 hour daily check-in that has raised questions. Read the last sentence again, it clearly mentions that the Xbox Live account is tied to the country of billing and residence. The fact that the Xbox Live account had to be verified daily confirms that the console simply would not have worked in a country not supported by Microsoft at the time.

Again, if it was really that simple MS would have come out and said it is available to all. Just like they did in August when they announced the delay in 8 of the original 21 launch countries. Albert Panello came out and said yes you can import consoles no problem. They did not after E3 even though MANY journalists gave them the opportunity to do so.

Also, that is Xbox's OFFICIAL Support account. Unless the confirmation is coming straight out of Steve ballmer's asshole, it does not get anymore official than that.

As is the case with the Xbox 360.

Logic, apparently.

LOL, it's all a conshpiracy to generate hits maaaan.

On the contrary, the Xbone has been PLENTY interesting. Interesting in the same way you hope to see a severed appendage lying on the freeway after a grotesque car wreck, but interesting nonetheless.

I'm certainly no advocate of the gaming press, but come the **** on -- you'd have to be wearing big green Xbone blinders not to see why there have been so many articles on the Xbone... I mean, it's not every day that you have a company having to nearly completely redo a console from a conceptual standpoint, and we weren't just talking about the size of the machine or even the gimpy Kinect device that comes with it, but the fundamental industry changing concepts that it wanted to introduce (and would have had the public AND the press not taken a giant steaming shit on it).

In other words: it's not every day that a company tries to ruin its brand and the market along with it by releasing a compilation of shitty ideas in a $500 box. The press didn't like it? NEWS FLASH: the public didn't either. NOBODY did, save for shills and Microsoft. The press should be commended for jumping on the Xbone with both feet, and if their reward came in the form of revenue from hits -- so fucking be it. It was a shitty concept, that deserved to be pounded into the ground, and that's exactly what happened. And the market is healthier and those planning to buy an Xbone wound up with a much better, less bullshit-ridden system as a result.

Instead of crying about it, you should be writing them thank you cards.

First off, where did I suggest the Xbox One criticism wasn't warranted? Where in my post that you quoted did I say, "No one should have said anything bad about the Xbox One"?

Secondly, where did I suggest journalists (or the public) liked the Xbox One, before or after the policy changes?

Thirdly, where did I suggest that the Xbox One changes weren't for the better -- for everyone who's interested in an Xbox One?

That's three different claims you've falsely attributed to me in one post. Were you going for a record? I just find it very strange, given you quoted me. Perhaps you barely read it. Regardless, it's hard to take anything you say seriously (in response to me) when you don't even bother to be accurate or factual.

Furthermore, even if I'm to ignore all of the aforementioned falsehoods, nothing you've said disagrees with my point in regards to shoddy journalism. We can argue back and forth about what articles are warranted, and which ones aren't, but again, due to a few solid facts, why bother with that? Let's just state what we know to be true.

1) For the past six months, Xbox One articles have reeled in the most traffic on many popular gaming websites, traffic that hasn't been this good for a long, long time, and it's not even close. This is provable, so if you doubt this, I'd be happy to evidence it for you.
2) Gaming websites such as GameSpot and IGN require traffic to remain in business. The more traffic the better, obviously.
3) Most gaming websites compete for traffic. They are in competition. Rivals, you could say. This is true of any industry with multiple companies providing about the exact same service, I sincerely hope you wouldn't contest this point.

So, with that said, do you really think some of these Xbox articles over the past six months weren't put up solely for traffic reasons? There's nothing conspiratorial about it; if anything, it's intelligent. I'd do the same thing, were it my job to bring in traffic. To deny that would be naive. Again, this isn't me claiming a huge conspiracy, if anything, I'm claiming GameSpot and IGN are smart. That compliment however, comes with a side effect: a loss of credibility.

Think about it in any other context. When a person or company's success hinges upon popularity (aka traffic), can you ever really trust them? Where do you think the ridiculously simplified adage, "Don't trust a politician" comes from? I rarely cite common proverbs in my arguments, but there's some validity in that saying that applies here. GameSpot's sustained livelihood relies on our continual interest, that's a fact. If you can't figure out why it's in their best interest to regularly (and often) produce Xbox One articles, completely factual ones or otherwise, I don't know what to tell you.

One last thing: I still like that a lot of people chuckled at my labeling you a fanboy. Here in your post, you blatantly display it, citing the Kinect to be "gimpy". That's funny, because I'm willing to bet you've never interfaced with the new Kinect. You're basing this off of someone else's opinion who's quite obviously had very, very limited interaction with it, yes? Certainly you understand how unfair you're being? The product hasn't even been released to the public and already you're burying it. Imagine how ignorant you would look if you did the same thing to the PS3 in its first few years of being launched. Or the 360 for the past few years. A product's "value" cannot fairly be assessed when it hasn't even been officially released, and even then, things can change. Just ask the PS3. If this is a matter of a journalist who's insulted it (in their limited time with the Kinect, which was undeniably in an unfinished state, so they're already being terrible journalists) I'll wager I can find twice as many supportive opinions on it from the gaming media.

I'm sure glad you weren't in charge when virtual reality headset gaming was first introduced in the early 90's. You damn a product (and the technology behind it) long before it's even released. The Oculus Rift might never have come around, if your opinion were influential.

But I suspect none of this matters to you, right? You don't need to read a journalist's opinion on the new Kinect. You made up your mind long ago on it. Motion gaming in general, in fact. And Microsoft. And the Xbox One. Your post history indicates as much.

You know, there's a term for that kind of person, not that there's anything wrong with having these opinions prematurely. It's been coined: fanboy. That's what you are, and I sincerely am not using it derogatorily. There's nothing wrong with being a fanboy; it's just what you are, we both know it to be true. Why not admit to it?

@experience_fade:

You are ignoring the fact that MS's policy was mushy and that there were multiple 180s and announcements of hardware revisions and future changes. To quote an earlier post:

Also, its worth remembering that multiple articles tend to spring up when there is confusion. If a company goes into lengthy, ambiguous legalese when answering a simple question or gives multiple conflicting answers then a lot of articles will be written by people giving their interpretations of what the company's actual position is. If a company keeps it simple then while people will still argue over whether a policy is good or bad, there won't be debate over what it is.

Do you dispute any part of the above?

As for for thinking all of this coverage/excitement is unusual in the run-up to a launch, that just indicates to me you don't remember what prior launches were like. Launch events are massive, sparking intense debate about the games of the new systems, what the new systems are capable of (I remember in the run-up to the Wii even Wii fans who normally just talked about this week's Mario game spent a lot of time discussing technical abstractions like bounding boxes and suchlike).

The Xbone's Kinect isn't launching with any games built around it, which is striking because games like Ryse and Crimson Dragon were once Kinect only but had that support scaled back. If MS wants to sell gamers on a technology, games are well, kind of important to most gamers.

On a related note, MS might want to remember that Sony didn't turn around the public perception of the PS3 by flooding the internet with increasingly shrill paid shills, lying about what it was capable of or whining about less than complimentary articles, they did it by focusing on games.

The bolded is not correct. Kinect Sports Rivals Preseason, Zuma Fitness and Fighter Within.

Counting a free trial as a game is stretching it but Zumba Fitness and Fighter Within are actual games, so I stand corrected.

Curious as to why MS wasn't flaunting these Kinect based games (which would presumably allay the concerns many have about motion games). I read a few previews of Fighter Within.

Based on the previews, The Fighter Within like its predecessor Fighters Uncaged doesn't look like it is going to sell people on motion controlled fighters. Both previewers note (and in the case of the video, show) that the controls are generally responsive, but sometimes either because a motion is missed or the character is still performing an animation, moves are missed. Historically speaking, precision is important to core gamers and it is even more important to fighting gamers (who often invest money in specialized controllers). I think the way to sell people on motion controls is not through the things they do worse than conventional controllers, its by the things they do better than conventional controllers.

For example, in Project Spark (which is several months away based on both the Xbone beta date and comments the team has made about the business model being up in the air) players can act out an action and then apply that animation to monsters. That is a hell of a lot easier than animating every limb and its not realtime (well, maybe it will be, but that hasn't been shown) so the odd missed movement isn't a problem (acting out a move a couple times until the camera gets it is better than having to put every limb in position). *Shrugs* Of course, I am a guy who is enthusiastic about UGC, which while popular (nods towards sales of Minecraft and LBP) isn't universally loved, so that isn't going to be a killer app for everyone.

http://venturebeat.com/2013/08/21/fighter-within-preview/

Fighting games live or die by their controls. If they’re too slow or unresponsive, players will ignore it and move on to something else. So when a developer ditches the controllers in favor of motion-based commands, they’re already raising a lot of eyebrows.

The problem came when the new Kinect didn’t seem to recognize some of my special attacks — which includes movements like crossing your arms in an X or lifting your leg — toward the end of my match. They eventually worked, but considering how much more powerful the new Kinect is over the old one, this is a disappointment. Ubisoft representatives suggested that the camera was probably picking up the people behind us (who were standing a few feet away) and had trouble tracking me.

Kinect Sports Rivals is not the full game. It releases in March next year. This is just a demo that includes only one activity.

I didn't realize Zumba Fitness was considered a game. is Wii Fit a game? :P

That said, it's still odd that after including a $100 peripheral in every console, they release all but two games at launch that actually use it. At least all Nintendo's games bothered to use the Wii U gimmick.

IMHO MS not forcing Kinect support is fine. Nintendo shoehorning tablet/controller hybrid support into their games didn't sell people on the controller :). What I think is problematic is that outside of the Project Spark team MS's (and Ubisoft's) core game designers haven't demoed good uses for the Kinect. If an expensive controller can only benefit a subsection of games/gamers there is no sense in charging everyone for it.

haha! amazing

1) You imply that the Xbone's issues stem from bad PR and not bad policies, which Microsoft's own reversals show is not the case. By implying that it was a PR issue and not one of core design, you imply that messaging was at fault instead of ideals, which recent has shown not to be the case at all.

2) The implication that it was a messaging issue implies that the public (and journalists by extension) would have liked the device better had the messaging been more sound. You haven't implied they DID like it, you implied they would have liked it MORE than they did, which is straight up wishful folly.

3) You didn't say that the machine had become a better machine as a result of the public beatings at the hands of the press and the public -- I DID. I said that instead of lampooning the press for hammering on the system, you should be thanking them as it kept Microsoft from making industry-altering changes that would have had dire consequences for both the Xbone and the market. If you'll remember, the press was all too quick to paint the Wii as a market savior and look what happened. The press, like the public, has become jaded to crazy moves, likely because of the Wii and what it did to the market. By your attempt to marginalize the way they treated the Xbone based on how "uninteresting" it was, you implied that they had an agenda, otherwise why would they report on it, correct? Don't try to bullshit a bullshitter, son, because then you go on to completely contradict yourself and state your reasoning behind the dozens and dozens of articles on the device, still completely ignoring that all the press was a given considering how fucked up the Xbone originally was. The forums lit on fire when it was revealed what it was, why would that same amount of conversation not extend to the press. You should change your name to Logic Fade, LOL. The fact that there was money to be made as a result of talking about the device is secondary to the fact that the device was such a grand fucking train wreck to start with. The fact that it was, coupled with the fact that you seemingly expected little or no reaction from the press shows just how far you have your head up your ass.

Kinect is gimpy. Here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnlHwThlrqA

There's lag. Maybe someone with your relaxed standards may not mind it, but to me, a controller is gimpy if I use an input and that doesn't correspond instantly on screen. I'm basing it off what my eyes show me, instead of blind faith, as you are. Further, I've already had three years of experience with the original Kinect and had enough time to see that they hyperbole didn't match up to the reality of it. You talk about why people don't trust politicians and then blindly make the case for trusting a game company with another Kinect device in spite of the first being absolute trash as a controller with three years' worth of evidence to substantiate that claim. Again, Logic-Fade.

And as a consumer, I'm not beholden to be "fair" to anyone or anything, nor have I ever stated I would be. My money is earned, not given. I don't subscribe to the notion that Microsoft has attempted to sell that they will give me wood if I give them fire. If you feel the onus is on the consumer to give technology the benefit of the doubt and throw money into devices that are not yet perfected and are sold using duplicitous methods (as the Kinect was), then that's your problem, not mine. Your brief time on this forum shows you don't know shit about shit, or about most of the people you prescribe labels to. However, if being labeled so by a mewling little simp like you makes me a fanboy, then I will wear that distinction with honor.

I have read some crazy shit in my time on this board, but I couldn't even finish reading that post from experience_fade. My god.

Shameus is right about Kinect as well. It isn't as responsive as MS would like us to believe. I had probably the 8 most embarrassing minutes of my life trying to play the Jet Ski game and failing miserably because of how clunky and unresponsive the control scheme felt. If this was a traditional video game that used the traditional controller, it would get a 3/10 rating based on the controls alone.

Now I was much better on my second time through, but it was still extremely unresponsive. A lot of deadzone and absolutely no precision. Which I thought was supposed to be the point of this new revamped next gen Kinect.

The most eye opening bit was that they wouldn't even let anyone try the Rock climbing demo after the first few guys struggled with it. I literally had to beg him to let me try it and even then he told me to come by later in the day.

@S0lidSnake:

I am not sure when or where you played the Rivals Jet Ski game, but your experience is much different than mine. Much to my surprise, I found the controls to be much more responsive than I initially thought they would be. Not sure why you felt that the controllers clunky, perhaps it was a bad kinect sensor or user error. Again...my experience, the kinect worked well on rivals jet ski. The game was a lot fun and reminded me of the old Waverunner game on the N64.