MS: Xbox needs to move away from its roots as a haven for hardcore gamers

*looks up*  :roll:

Jesus... can this thread get anymore bizarre? The one day i decide to participate in the forums...:|

*looks up* :roll:

Jesus... can this thread get anymore bizarre? The one day i decide to participate in the forums...:|

juradai

Just lightening the mood. Or trying and failing too. C'mon how many times have we had this debate? If you've been away from the forums the count is up to a hundred by now.

I also think it's ridiculous that Peter Moore expects to be able to broaden the 360's appeal at this point. What do they have in terms of family friendly content for Christmas 2007? That makes, what, three straight holidays where Microsoft doesn't have much for the family friendly audience? Yet they expect to be the go-to console in that regard for this generation? :lol:

The only way they're going to get that kind of content is to become market leader. If that's going to happen, it's going to be through games like Halo and Grand Theft Auto. If they can get consoles into homes through those kinds of games, then maybe there will be a market for the children and younger siblings of your Halo and GTA players. Maybe. I still think Nintendo's got the family-friendly market cornered.

[QUOTE="juradai"]

*looks up* :roll:

Jesus... can this thread get anymore bizarre? The one day i decide to participate in the forums...:|

gaminggeek

Just lightening the mood. Or trying and failing too. C'mon how many times have we had this debate? If you've been away from the forums the count is up to a hundred by now.

Oh don't get me wrong I found your post hilarious. I just saw fit to maintain the humor although I probably failed miserably.

Hmm... a hundred you say? That is just like eating the same lunch everyday. How can one handle it?:P

I also think it's ridiculous that Peter Moore expects to be able to broaden the 360's appeal at this point. What do they have in terms of family friendly content for Christmas 2007? That makes, what, three straight holidays where Microsoft doesn't have much for the family friendly audience? Yet they expect to be the go-to console in that regard for this generation? :lol:

The only way they're going to get that kind of content is to become market leader. If that's going to happen, it's going to be through games like Halo and Grand Theft Auto. If they can get consoles into homes through those kinds of games, then maybe there will be a market for the children and younger siblings of your Halo and GTA players. Maybe. I still think Nintendo's got the family-friendly market cornered.

Oilers99

Nintendo is the Disney of video games.Nintendo has handhelds and huge franchises that are specifically designed for children. Families see Nintendo as a safer haven for their kids to enjoy games. And Nintendo products are sturdy and don't break.

I don't thinkMicrosoft can compete with that no matter how much money they throw at this.

[QUOTE="gaminggeek"][QUOTE="juradai"]

*looks up* :roll:

Jesus... can this thread get anymore bizarre? The one day i decide to participate in the forums...:|

juradai

Just lightening the mood. Or trying and failing too. C'mon how many times have we had this debate? If you've been away from the forums the count is up to a hundred by now.

Oh don't get me wrong I found your post hilarious. I just saw fit to maintain the humor although I probably failed miserably.

Hmm... a hundred you say? That is just like eating the same lunch everyday. How can one handle it?:P

Too late, I was deeply hurt and deleted my post. The Apes of Oppression have won. History willnever be da same. :(

I also think it's ridiculous that Peter Moore expects to be able to broaden the 360's appeal at this point. What do they have in terms of family friendly content for Christmas 2007? That makes, what, three straight holidays where Microsoft doesn't have much for the family friendly audience? Yet they expect to be the go-to console in that regard for this generation? :lol:

Oilers99

I think Microsoft is just being Microsoft. It isn't enough for them to do well in a given market and follow standards set by other enterprises, they want to become primary in that market and be the ones who set the standards. They pour money not just into gaming, but into many different fields in order to take as much marketshare away as possible so that they can ultimately have more influence and set the direction, as well as financially dominate. If all they can gain is 25% of the marketshare and they cap out at that, they usually eventually drop out. I think Moore sees this as something they *have* to do if they want to gain the kind of proliferation in the console market they wanted initially. It may be an uphill battle, but in everythign except their PC OS and office tools market, they have become used to that kind of uphill battle.

I still think that Microsoft wants something more out of this than just being a well-known gaming console with a good reputation among deeply involved gamers who have time to play epic games. They want to be something that anybody can pick up, because they realize that's what is selling. And they want it because they don't want their console to remain just a gaming console. I think Microsoft and Sony see (or at least saw)the future of household entertainmentas a centralized on-demand media hub, and they both want to be the one setting the standards in that future enterprise. This gaming thing for Microsoft is an investment in the future of entertainment provisioning.

It's ironic that Nintendo, a company that doesn't seem interested in taking that route at all, is making them sit up and notice that maybe the method they took for that kind of marketing wasn't the most likely one to garner some success.

The only way they're going to get that kind of content is to become market leader. If that's going to happen, it's going to be through games like Halo and Grand Theft Auto. If they can get consoles into homes through those kinds of games, then maybe there will be a market for the children and younger siblings of your Halo and GTA players. Maybe. I still think Nintendo's got the family-friendly market cornered.

Oilers99

Even if Microsoft were only interested in the gaming market in this foray into console building, they would still be interested in the family-friendly market. But I don't think that's what this is really about. I think they see Nintendo building new market inroads, and they want a piece of that. They can term that "family-friendly market", but it's not the exiting family-friendly market that Nintendo always historically had, it's the expanding family-friendly market that Nintendo has been creating. I think they realizethatwhat has attracted new buyers is accessibility and in some cases, novelty. That's what they want a piece of. They want a piece of that, even if it is only a fad and only for the short term, because they know that marketshare is all important for any other plans they have built on top of their gaming enterprise. Accessibility helps sell consoles, which helps push games and entertainment to be madeor publishedfor said console, and thusultimatelyplays right into becoming a much biggerplayer in a future on-demand entertainment mecca.

Seriously, I don't think Microsoft has ever wanted to settle for being a console and game providerfor what appears (to them and maybe others)to be becoming a niche market. To take a term out of Nintendo's recent controversial communication, it has never beenin their "company DNA" to settle for that kind of second best in the marketplace.

Overseas for them it might be a deeper issue than just price and games, so I don't what they could do to fix that.

dvader654

Nobody knows what Japan is going to do next. Not even the Japanese themselves.

Nintendo seems to be the only one who has been able to read it like a book, and for that they deserve MAD props. If it were me, I'd have flipped them off and been selling to a market that actually gave a crap years ago. Way too finicky, unpredictable,and bizarre for my tastes. Which might be worth putting up with if they were the biggest market out there, but they're the smallest.

Oh don't get me wrong I found your post hilarious. I just saw fit to maintain the humor although I probably failed miserably.juradai

So you're saying gaminggeek's NeoGAF wannabe funny pictures posts are not welcome here? Is that it?! Hmm?! :evil:

So we will finally get something else than Guitar Hero andfpsdesigned for male teens with a lack of confidence in their masculinity. About time if you ask me.

What sort of approach to so-called "casual games" would you guys like to see Microsoft take besides the obvious "kiddy games"?

I think Viva Pinata was a step in the right direction. It's not really a 'kiddy game'. It's a god sim basically, but with pinatas.

Too bad they marketed it all wrong. The 360 would need a steady stream of games like that to gather that 'casual' attention they are craving.

Oh and at this point MS should just give up on Japan. Or wait til they have a larger share of the market in the US/EU. At tis point they're getting nowhere.

Absolutly nothing will change because of a few mini game style games come, nothing at all.

dvader654

It is the existing developers that are shifting their focus, and it is Nintendo that has opened their eyes to this new market. A market that does not involve gamers like you and I, nor games that you and I would care to fiddle around with for more than 10 minutes at a time.

From a business perspective, Nintendo is to be applauded, but from a gamer's perspective, I don't see how any of us can be happy about the major success of the Wii and DS over more traditionalsystems like the X360 and PS3.

[QUOTE="dvader654"]

Absolutly nothing will change because of a few mini game style games come, nothing at all.

The_Duke_Lives

It is the existing developers that are shifting their focus, and it is Nintendo that has opened their eyes to this new market. A market that does not involve gamers like you and I, nor games that you and I would care to fiddle around with for more than 10 minutes at a time.

From a business perspective, Nintendo is to be applauded, but from a gamer's perspective, I don't see how any of us can be happy about the major success of the Wii and DS over more traditionalsystems like the X360 and PS3.

What makes you so unsure that? I really think you are blowing this out of proportion. The games that we all play will still be there. They aren't going anywhere.

The market is expanding which means more variety will come out of it. It is a good thing not a bad thing. Relax, TDL... it's Friday...;)

[QUOTE="juradai"]Oh don't get me wrong I found your post hilarious. I just saw fit to maintain the humor although I probably failed miserably.UpInFlames

So you're saying gaminggeek's NeoGAF wannabe funny pictures posts are not welcome here? Is that it?! Hmm?! :evil:

yes...no...uh... I mean... *shakes head*

*winces* Why must you do this to me...? :( That's it... I'm off to go socialize! Ladies, here I come! Perhaps I should ask them about what they think of the casual market potentially shrinking the hardcore market? I figure I will get a couple of incredulous looks but I think it would work as a great ice breaker for discussion and a strong method to get some phone numbers.

The part of the article where Peter Moore shows concern that the 360 wont outsell the Xbox is pretty concerning. What did the Xbox sell... like 25 million? I would expect to hear more confidence from an MS rep.

[QUOTE="jedigemini"]

The part of the article where Peter Moore shows concern that the 360 wont outsell the Xbox is pretty concerning. What did the Xbox sell... like 25 million? I would expect to hear more confidence from an MS rep.

dvader654

I dont think he meant it would sell less, he said it was on the same path as the first Xbox, which it is. Look at the sales and its almost the same thing, just slightly better. Its not going to be this monster selling system, right now its performing like a system thats going to be second place, just like the Xbox. Its good that he realizes this, maybe the price drop will come soon which should boost sales significantly.

If the company stayed the course and simply reduced the price of the system by $100 they would see epic sales this holiday season. Halo 3 is going to fuel aridiculous numberof 360 sales. The price cut would pull in anyone left who happens to be on the fence.

[QUOTE="The_Duke_Lives"][QUOTE="dvader654"]

Absolutly nothing will change because of a few mini game style games come, nothing at all.

dvader654

It is the existing developers that are shifting their focus, and it is Nintendo that has opened their eyes to this new market. A market that does not involve gamers like you and I, nor games that you and I would care to fiddle around with for more than 10 minutes at a time.

From a business perspective, Nintendo is to be applauded, but from a gamer's perspective, I don't see how any of us can be happy about the major success of the Wii and DS over more traditionalsystems like the X360 and PS3.

So well known companies will make a game or two in this new genre, so what. When FPSs hit you saw most companies scramble to make FPS, none of their main games disappeared. When RE clones hit Konami made their own, did MGS or Castlevania disappear, no. So instead of a genre we care about its one we don't, oh well, they make a game or two, they wont abandon what they do best.

In an extreme case that shows the Wii absolutely killing everyone in it's path, then I would say it's likely you would see companies even foregoing proven franchises like MGS for casual-friendly games, but at the moment, it looks like we will simply see a reduction in focus on the "real gamers", in favor of this non-gamer movement.

I for one think we lack enough great real gamer games already. The last thing we needed was for the Wii to be this huge success and reduce focus on us even more.

[QUOTE="dvader654"][QUOTE="The_Duke_Lives"][QUOTE="dvader654"]

Absolutly nothing will change because of a few mini game style games come, nothing at all.

The_Duke_Lives

It is the existing developers that are shifting their focus, and it is Nintendo that has opened their eyes to this new market. A market that does not involve gamers like you and I, nor games that you and I would care to fiddle around with for more than 10 minutes at a time.

From a business perspective, Nintendo is to be applauded, but from a gamer's perspective, I don't see how any of us can be happy about the major success of the Wii and DS over more traditionalsystems like the X360 and PS3.

So well known companies will make a game or two in this new genre, so what. When FPSs hit you saw most companies scramble to make FPS, none of their main games disappeared. When RE clones hit Konami made their own, did MGS or Castlevania disappear, no. So instead of a genre we care about its one we don't, oh well, they make a game or two, they wont abandon what they do best.

In an extreme case that shows the Wii absolutely killing everyone in it's path, then I would say it's likely you would see companies even foregoing proven franchises like MGS for casual-friendly games, but at the moment, it looks like we will simply see a reduction in focus on the "real gamers", in favor of this non-gamer movement.

I for one think we lack enough great real gamer games already. The last thing we needed was for the Wii to be this huge success and reduce focus on us even more.

[QUOTE="The_Duke_Lives"][QUOTE="juradai"]

I really don't think that will be the case. Even if all the game developers decided to start making mini game collections it will oversaturate the market with one concept that won't be digested by consumers. Too much of anything is definitely bad for everyone and I don't think this doom and gloom that people are in fear of is really going to ever happen.

juradai

I can understand why you would have that fear but I truly think it is unfounded. I think people are confusing growth of the video game market as a whole with shrinkage of a "hardcore" market. Casual gamers will eventually graduate to hardcore gamers and thus increase the demand for more indepth games. If the market expands as a whole then expect gaming variety to increase on a casual level and on a hardcore level. I see it as a win not a loss, good sir. ;)

Certain games do get less numerous when more profitable types of games come along. It would be nice if they didn't but when was the last time there was a space sim with as big a budget as Wing Commander 3-4 or a adventure series as prolific as King/Space Quest? No it looks like all those people who started playing games with FPS/RTS or who preferred them still don't like these genres and it's still less risky to invest money in the more popular genres. Why would it be any different today?

[QUOTE="dvader654"][QUOTE="The_Duke_Lives"][QUOTE="dvader654"]

Absolutly nothing will change because of a few mini game style games come, nothing at all.

The_Duke_Lives

1) It is the existing developers that are shifting their focus, and it is Nintendo that has opened their eyes to this new market. A market that does not involve gamers like you and I, nor games that you and I would care to fiddle around with for more than 10 minutes at a time.

From a business perspective, Nintendo is to be applauded, but from a gamer's perspective, I don't see how any of us can be happy about the major success of the Wii and DS over more traditionalsystems like the X360 and PS3.

So well known companies will make a game or two in this new genre, so what. When FPSs hit you saw most companies scramble to make FPS, none of their main games disappeared. When RE clones hit Konami made their own, did MGS or Castlevania disappear, no. So instead of a genre we care about its one we don't, oh well, they make a game or two, they wont abandon what they do best.

3) In an extreme case that shows the Wii absolutely killing everyone in it's path, then I would say it's likely you would see companies even foregoing proven franchises like MGS for casual-friendly games, but at the moment, it looks like we will simply see a reduction in focus on the "real gamers", in favor of this non-gamer movement.

4) I for one think we lack enough great real gamer games already. The last thing we needed was for the Wii to be this huge success and reduce focus on us even more.

1) If a developers goes whatever way the winds blow, he probably isn't good enough at his craft or bold enough in his choices to make the types of games most of us would care about. How many people would really care if Volition, VIS or EA Canada (who has clearly lost the tremendous energy that propelled them in the early days of the SSX and NBA Street franchises) decided to move on?

2) It isn't games like Assasin's Creed and Bioshock that are endangered, because both are made by developers clearly passionate about that style of game (before Assasin's Creed there was PoP, before Bioshock there was System Shock 2).

3) Bird in the hand and the inclinations of the developer will keep our favorite franchises/developers working on traditional systems. Even if Cliffy B was willing to abandon shooters(and an audience of millions)for casual games, there would be the very real risk that the kitten raising game he made would not go over as well as Nintendogs 2. Part of what makes great games great is the passion of the developer (I knew SSX was going to turn out kickbutt when I saw a developer interview in which a clearly excited guy explained that he loved snowboarding and what to convey the excitement of it to gamers).

4) As a multiplatform owner, at least one must-buy game a month (sometimes a lot more than that towards the end of the year) seems to hit, and that is enough for me. Frankly, I find myself beating games once nowadays and then moving on. In leaner times, I would have beat FF12 (Matsuno is the man)four or five times.

[QUOTE="The_Duke_Lives"][QUOTE="dvader654"][QUOTE="The_Duke_Lives"][QUOTE="dvader654"]

Absolutly nothing will change because of a few mini game style games come, nothing at all.

CarnageHeart

1) It is the existing developers that are shifting their focus, and it is Nintendo that has opened their eyes to this new market. A market that does not involve gamers like you and I, nor games that you and I would care to fiddle around with for more than 10 minutes at a time.

From a business perspective, Nintendo is to be applauded, but from a gamer's perspective, I don't see how any of us can be happy about the major success of the Wii and DS over more traditionalsystems like the X360 and PS3.

So well known companies will make a game or two in this new genre, so what. When FPSs hit you saw most companies scramble to make FPS, none of their main games disappeared. When RE clones hit Konami made their own, did MGS or Castlevania disappear, no. So instead of a genre we care about its one we don't, oh well, they make a game or two, they wont abandon what they do best.

3) In an extreme case that shows the Wii absolutely killing everyone in it's path, then I would say it's likely you would see companies even foregoing proven franchises like MGS for casual-friendly games, but at the moment, it looks like we will simply see a reduction in focus on the "real gamers", in favor of this non-gamer movement.

4) I for one think we lack enough great real gamer games already. The last thing we needed was for the Wii to be this huge success and reduce focus on us even more.

1) If a developers goes whatever way the winds blow, he probably isn't good enough at his craft or bold enough in his choices to make the types of games most of us would care about. How many people would really care if Volition, VIS or EA Canada (who has clearly lost the tremendous energy that propelled them in the early days of the SSX and NBA Street franchises) decided to move on?

2) It isn't games like Assasin's Creed and Bioshock that are endangered, because both are made by developers clearly passionate about that style of game (before Assasin's Creed there was PoP, before Bioshock there was System Shock 2).

3) Bird in the hand and the inclinations of the developer will keep our favorite franchises/developers working on traditional systems. Even if Cliffy B was willing to abandon shooters(and an audience of millions)for casual games, there would be the very real risk that the kitten raising game he made would not go over as well as Nintendogs 2. Part of what makes great games great is the passion of the developer (I knew SSX was going to turn out kickbutt when I saw a developer interview in which a clearly excited guy explained that he loved snowboarding and what to convey the excitement of it to gamers).

4) As a multiplatform owner, at least one must-buy game a month (sometimes a lot more than that towards the end of the year) seems to hit, and that is enough for me. Frankly, I find myself beating games once nowadays and then moving on. In leaner times, I would have beat FF12 (Matsuno is the man)four or five times.

You may find that currently at least one good game comes out a month, but the effects of what has happened will not be seen until next year at the earliest. At the moment, 2007 is shaping up to be a year to rival 1998. I fear it's a very real possibility that it could be the last year in a very long time that will treat gamers like you and I.

When RE clones hit Konami made their own.dvader654

Not to get too far off topic, but since when is Silent Hill a RE clone?:? Does that make RE an Alone in the Dark clone?

[QUOTE="CarnageHeart"][QUOTE="The_Duke_Lives"][QUOTE="dvader654"][QUOTE="The_Duke_Lives"][QUOTE="dvader654"]

Absolutly nothing will change because of a few mini game style games come, nothing at all.

The_Duke_Lives

1) It is the existing developers that are shifting their focus, and it is Nintendo that has opened their eyes to this new market. A market that does not involve gamers like you and I, nor games that you and I would care to fiddle around with for more than 10 minutes at a time.

From a business perspective, Nintendo is to be applauded, but from a gamer's perspective, I don't see how any of us can be happy about the major success of the Wii and DS over more traditionalsystems like the X360 and PS3.

So well known companies will make a game or two in this new genre, so what. When FPSs hit you saw most companies scramble to make FPS, none of their main games disappeared. When RE clones hit Konami made their own, did MGS or Castlevania disappear, no. So instead of a genre we care about its one we don't, oh well, they make a game or two, they wont abandon what they do best.

3) In an extreme case that shows the Wii absolutely killing everyone in it's path, then I would say it's likely you would see companies even foregoing proven franchises like MGS for casual-friendly games, but at the moment, it looks like we will simply see a reduction in focus on the "real gamers", in favor of this non-gamer movement.

4) I for one think we lack enough great real gamer games already. The last thing we needed was for the Wii to be this huge success and reduce focus on us even more.

1) If a developers goes whatever way the winds blow, he probably isn't good enough at his craft or bold enough in his choices to make the types of games most of us would care about. How many people would really care if Volition, VIS or EA Canada (who has clearly lost the tremendous energy that propelled them in the early days of the SSX and NBA Street franchises) decided to move on?

2) It isn't games like Assasin's Creed and Bioshock that are endangered, because both are made by developers clearly passionate about that style of game (before Assasin's Creed there was PoP, before Bioshock there was System Shock 2).

3) Bird in the hand and the inclinations of the developer will keep our favorite franchises/developers working on traditional systems. Even if Cliffy B was willing to abandon shooters(and an audience of millions)for casual games, there would be the very real risk that the kitten raising game he made would not go over as well as Nintendogs 2. Part of what makes great games great is the passion of the developer (I knew SSX was going to turn out kickbutt when I saw a developer interview in which a clearly excited guy explained that he loved snowboarding and what to convey the excitement of it to gamers).

4) As a multiplatform owner, at least one must-buy game a month (sometimes a lot more than that towards the end of the year) seems to hit, and that is enough for me. Frankly, I find myself beating games once nowadays and then moving on. In leaner times, I would have beat FF12 (Matsuno is the man)four or five times.

You may find that currently at least one good game comes out a month, but the effects of what has happened will not be seen until next year at the earliest. At the moment, 2007 is shaping up to be a year to rival 1998. I fear it's a very real possibility that it could be the last year in a very long time that will treat gamers like you and I.

Unless the market for traditional games starts shrinking in the West the way it has been in Japan (thereby making the traditional games market unsubstainable at its current size), I expect publishers will continue to heavily back traditional games irregardless of the market for casual games (if there is money to be made in casual games, I expect they will try to make that as well). Publishers like to try to hoover up every dollar, as evidenced by their strong support of niche games (ROTK is markedly less popular than Dynasty Warriors, but it is profitable, so Koei continues to support it) and their belief in porting to every platform (EA franchises such as Madden run on everything from cellphones to X360s). How receptive the Wii audience will be to third party games of various types and the attach ratio are also important factors. Anyway, time will tell.

you know what wasn't a hit all the copy cat pet games that sold like crap. Nintendo is going to make a lot of money off of this new type of game, I highly doubt any other company will.

dvader654

Great point, for all the copycat games out there, most of them fail to capture that ellusive charm, appeal and success.And nintendo's efforts if you've tried them, usually have a whiff of quality about them too. We'll see if EA Playground and My Word coach or Carnival sell as much as Wii sports or the controller-packaged Wii play then well get a better indication I suppose. And I suppose we'll have to wait and see if any really casual minigame fare sells on other systems either. If these games start bombing on so-called hardcore platforms who the hell is going to keep making them? They'll be on download services instead.

Angry Beaver, great post, very well thought out, I find very little to argue with your thinking process.

Darth Tigris, again nice post we are overreacting but it's in our nature and no Moore did not mention mini-games or motion control though I think variety in ones software line-up should extend to all availible genres.

The price drop is six months overdue. Shame-usBlackley

But to simply toss out a price cut at any given time wouldn't have the desired effect. I'm sure many at MS are chomping at the bit to drop the hammer, but I'll bet MS is holding off until the holiday season or the launch of Halo 3 to do it, no matter how disappointing X360 sales are at this point in time.

As far as expanding the market, MS is already doing this. Their emphasis on more Japanese support, most notably Mistwalker, is a testment to MS widening their focus. Anything more than that would be a mistake. They don't need to play Nintendo's game, they just need to continue to deliver to gamers what Sony appears to be totally incapable of.

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

The price drop is six months overdue. MarcusAntonius

But to simply toss out a price cut at any given time wouldn't have the desired effect. I'm sure many at MS are chomping at the bit to drop the hammer, but I'll bet MS is holding off until the holiday season or the launch of Halo 3 to do it, no matter how disappointing X360 sales are at this point in time.

As far as expanding the market, MS is already doing this. Their emphasis on more Japanese support, most notably Mistwalker, is a testment to MS widening their focus. Anything more than that would be a mistake. They don't need to play Nintendo's game, they just need to continue to deliver to gamers what Sony appears to be totally incapable of.

Why wouldn't a price cut have the desired effect? There are some people who pay no more than X for a console, bringing said console into their range is good whether the move is made in June or September.On a related note, a fan of shooters who is put off by the X360's price would have lots of games to pick up besides Halo 3 if such a price cut happened tommorrow. However, I agree with you about MS expanding its appeal by expanding its developer support.

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

The price drop is six months overdue. MarcusAntonius

But to simply toss out a price cut at any given time wouldn't have the desired effect. I'm sure many at MS are chomping at the bit to drop the hammer, but I'll bet MS is holding off until the holiday season or the launch of Halo 3 to do it, no matter how disappointing X360 sales are at this point in time.

As far as expanding the market, MS is already doing this. Their emphasis on more Japanese support, most notably Mistwalker, is a testment to MS widening their focus. Anything more than that would be a mistake. They don't need to play Nintendo's game, they just need to continue to deliver to gamers what Sony appears to be totally incapable of.

They've gone on record to say they want to be the PS2 of the console wars (ie reach 90-100 million), I'm sorry but if they continue to do what they've been doing they will sell no more than the original X-Box has, if they really want to reach the masses they are going to have to play Nintendo's game, because the game Nintendo is playing now is very similar to the game Sony was playing when they released the original Playstation - everyone owned a Playstation back then.

[QUOTE="dvader654"]

you know what wasn't a hit all the copy cat pet games that sold like crap. Nintendo is going to make a lot of money off of this new type of game, I highly doubt any other company will.

gaminggeek

Great point, for all the copycat games out there, most of them fail to capture that ellusive charm, appeal and success.And nintendo's efforts if you've tried them, usually have a whiff of quality about them too. We'll see if EA Playground and My Word coach or Carnival sell as much as Wii sports or the controller-packaged Wii play then well get a better indication I suppose. And I suppose we'll have to wait and see if any really casual minigame fare sells on other systems either. If these games start bombing on so-called hardcore platforms who the hell is going to keep making them? They'll be on download services instead.

Something about Nintendo's games that have a special appeal about them. They're masters at making games for people that all ages can enjoy. No other company can quite match up with them.

Maybe it's that Miyamoto magic? It's the same special alluring quality that other greats in respected media suchas Miyazaki, Spielberg, and Walt Disney has. There's a certain quality about what they do that is unmatched by any standard.

[QUOTE="MarcusAntonius"]

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

The price drop is six months overdue. CarnageHeart

But to simply toss out a price cut at any given time wouldn't have the desired effect. I'm sure many at MS are chomping at the bit to drop the hammer, but I'll bet MS is holding off until the holiday season or the launch of Halo 3 to do it, no matter how disappointing X360 sales are at this point in time.

As far as expanding the market, MS is already doing this. Their emphasis on more Japanese support, most notably Mistwalker, is a testment to MS widening their focus. Anything more than that would be a mistake. They don't need to play Nintendo's game, they just need to continue to deliver to gamers what Sony appears to be totally incapable of.

Why wouldn't a price cut have the desired effect? There are some people who pay no more than X for a console, bringing said console into their range is good whether the move is made in June or September.On a related note, a fan of shooters who is put off by the X360's price would have lots of games to pick up besides Halo 3 if such a price cut happened tommorrow. However, I agree with you about MS expanding its appeal by expanding its developer support.

Price-cuts alone aren't enough, and I refer back to last-gen when the GC dropped to a measly £40 here in the UK, look where that got them, not to mention how many price cuts the Xbox had last-gen.

I think a price-cut in conjunction with a system-selling title is a good idea though.

[QUOTE="dvader654"]

you know what wasn't a hit all the copy cat pet games that sold like crap. Nintendo is going to make a lot of money off of this new type of game, I highly doubt any other company will.

gaminggeek

Great point, for all the copycat games out there, most of them fail to capture that ellusive charm, appeal and success.And nintendo's efforts if you've tried them, usually have a whiff of quality about them too. We'll see if EA Playground and My Word coach or Carnival sell as much as Wii sports or the controller-packaged Wii play then well get a better indication I suppose. And I suppose we'll have to wait and see if any really casual minigame fare sells on other systems either. If these games start bombing on so-called hardcore platforms who the hell is going to keep making them? They'll be on download services instead.

Something about Nintendo's games that have a special appeal about them. They're masters at making games for people that all ages can enjoy. No other company can quite match up with them.

Maybe it's that Miyamoto magic? It's the same special alluring quality that other greats in respected media suchas Miyazaki, Spielberg, and Walt Disney has. There's a certain quality about what they do that is unmatched by any standard.

[QUOTE="MarcusAntonius"]

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

The price drop is six months overdue. Mantorok

But to simply toss out a price cut at any given time wouldn't have the desired effect. I'm sure many at MS are chomping at the bit to drop the hammer, but I'll bet MS is holding off until the holiday season or the launch of Halo 3 to do it, no matter how disappointing X360 sales are at this point in time.

As far as expanding the market, MS is already doing this. Their emphasis on more Japanese support, most notably Mistwalker, is a testment to MS widening their focus. Anything more than that would be a mistake. They don't need to play Nintendo's game, they just need to continue to deliver to gamers what Sony appears to be totally incapable of.

They've gone on record to say they want to be the PS2 of the console wars (ie reach 90-100 million), I'm sorry but if they continue to do what they've been doing they will sell no more than the original X-Box has, if they really want to reach the masses they are going to have to play Nintendo's game, because the game Nintendo is playing now is very similar to the game Sony was playing when they released the original Playstation - everyone owned a Playstation back then.

I honestly think that Microsoft is playing a losing game. I just can't picture them as a Nintendo-type of business. Their image is engraved to our culture already as a hardcore, killing machine. I don't think a few cutesy characters who play mini-games or talking animals will have any impact, especially if their competition is Pikachu and a Italian plumber.

Remember when Peter Moore argued saying that Sony's online plan has no chance in competing against Microsoft's online service, ridiculing Sony for thinking that they can suddenly make a successful online community against Microsoft's who have been building on their service for so many years? What Microsoft is trying to do with this whole moving away from hardcore games is kind of like that. There's no possible way that they can suddenly be a successful family-oriented market against a company who has been doing it for the past 20 years!

They have no chance...but to look on the bright side, you can also argue and say that Nintendo has no chance in competing against Microsoft when it comes to the best mature games. So I think both companies should continue what they do best and build from there.

[QUOTE="MarcusAntonius"]

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

The price drop is six months overdue. CarnageHeart

But to simply toss out a price cut at any given time wouldn't have the desired effect. I'm sure many at MS are chomping at the bit to drop the hammer, but I'll bet MS is holding off until the holiday season or the launch of Halo 3 to do it, no matter how disappointing X360 sales are at this point in time.

As far as expanding the market, MS is already doing this. Their emphasis on more Japanese support, most notably Mistwalker, is a testment to MS widening their focus. Anything more than that would be a mistake. They don't need to play Nintendo's game, they just need to continue to deliver to gamers what Sony appears to be totally incapable of.

Why wouldn't a price cut have the desired effect? There are some people who pay no more than X for a console, bringing said console into their range is good whether the move is made in June or September.On a related note, a fan of shooters who is put off by the X360's price would have lots of games to pick up besides Halo 3 if such a price cut happened tommorrow. However, I agree with you about MS expanding its appeal by expanding its developer support.

Price-cuts alone aren't enough, and I refer back to last-gen when the GC dropped to a measly £40 here in the UK, look where that got them, not to mention how many price cuts the Xbox had last-gen.

I think a price-cut in conjunction with a system-selling title is a good idea though.

[QUOTE="CarnageHeart"][QUOTE="MarcusAntonius"]

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

The price drop is six months overdue. Mantorok

But to simply toss out a price cut at any given time wouldn't have the desired effect. I'm sure many at MS are chomping at the bit to drop the hammer, but I'll bet MS is holding off until the holiday season or the launch of Halo 3 to do it, no matter how disappointing X360 sales are at this point in time.

As far as expanding the market, MS is already doing this. Their emphasis on more Japanese support, most notably Mistwalker, is a testment to MS widening their focus. Anything more than that would be a mistake. They don't need to play Nintendo's game, they just need to continue to deliver to gamers what Sony appears to be totally incapable of.

Why wouldn't a price cut have the desired effect? There are some people who pay no more than X for a console, bringing said console into their range is good whether the move is made in June or September.On a related note, a fan of shooters who is put off by the X360's price would have lots of games to pick up besides Halo 3 if such a price cut happened tommorrow. However, I agree with you about MS expanding its appeal by expanding its developer support.

Price-cuts alone aren't enough, and I refer back to last-gen when the GC dropped to a measly £40 here in the UK, look where that got them, not to mention how many price cuts the Xbox had last-gen.

I think a price-cut in conjunction with a system-selling title is a good idea though.

True, price-cuts alone aren't enough, but unlike the GC, the Xbox has a library which holds strong entrants in many popular categories (think Oblivion, Gears andForza 2)and which has more such entrants in the works (Mass Effect, Bioshockand Virtua Fighter 5 spring to mind). And I've never bought into the notion of 'system sellers'. On every non-Nintendo system the past three generations, no game hasat any point in time come anywherenear to selling to a majority of the userbase (Halo sold to 30% of the Xbox's userbase, Gears did roughly the same on the X360 and GTA sold to 15% of the PS2's userbase). It takes a strong library, not merelya strong title, to make a system successful. Of course, if a system is more than someone is willing to pay for it, than its library is academic for said person (I would love a Ferrari, but can't afford one) which is why a price cut today would be good for the X360.

[QUOTE="The_Duke_Lives"][QUOTE="dvader654"][QUOTE="The_Duke_Lives"][QUOTE="dvader654"]

Absolutly nothing will change because of a few mini game style games come, nothing at all.

dvader654

It is the existing developers that are shifting their focus, and it is Nintendo that has opened their eyes to this new market. A market that does not involve gamers like you and I, nor games that you and I would care to fiddle around with for more than 10 minutes at a time.

From a business perspective, Nintendo is to be applauded, but from a gamer's perspective, I don't see how any of us can be happy about the major success of the Wii and DS over more traditionalsystems like the X360 and PS3.

So well known companies will make a game or two in this new genre, so what. When FPSs hit you saw most companies scramble to make FPS, none of their main games disappeared. When RE clones hit Konami made their own, did MGS or Castlevania disappear, no. So instead of a genre we care about its one we don't, oh well, they make a game or two, they wont abandon what they do best.

In an extreme case that shows the Wii absolutely killing everyone in it's path, then I would say it's likely you would see companies even foregoing proven franchises like MGS for casual-friendly games, but at the moment, it looks like we will simply see a reduction in focus on the "real gamers", in favor of this non-gamer movement.

I for one think we lack enough great real gamer games already. The last thing we needed was for the Wii to be this huge success and reduce focus on us even more.

The fundamental flaw in this entire argument is that you assume the Wii equals mini-games, where do you get that idea from. So it has like three good selling mini-game titles, since when does that equate a shift in the entire focus of the game industry. Guess what the best selling game on the Wii is, Zelda. Guess what will be the best selling games on the Wii, Mario, Smash Bros, Metroid, Mario Kart, etc. all "normal" games. Nothing is happening, Nintendo found a new genre that sells some units, they will fit it in with their other franchises, they do it all the time. Other companies see that and what to copy Nintendo, let them, they will probably fail and go back to what they do.

Even in Japan where this whole big movement is supposedly taking place the vast vast majority of the best selling games are traditional games. Brain Age sold millions and millions of copies, well so did New Super Mario Bros. and Pokemon. Nintendogs was a huge hit, good for Nintendo, you know what wasn't a hit all the copy cat pet games that sold like crap. Nintendo is going to make a lot of money off of this new type of game, I highly doubt any other company will.

After experiencing games like Oblivion and seeing what the future holds with titles like Mass Effect, Bioshock, GTA4, and many others, the thought of going back to last generation andlooking at the Pokemons and Mario spinoffs as my hardcore treat depresses me greatly.

You can call games lik Mario Kart and New Super Mario Bros. "hardcore" all you want, but these games were still designed to attract the casual/young gamer. Not to say I don't find them fun and addicting, but I can hardlylive in a world where that's as traditional as games get.

If the extent of hardcore gaming by Nintendo means the likes of Pokemon and Smash Brothers, then count me out.

After experiencing games like Oblivion and seeing what the future holds with titles like Mass Effect, Bioshock, GTA4, and many others, the thought of going back to last generation andlooking at the Pokemons and Mario spinoffs as my hardcore treat depresses me greatly.

You can call games lik Mario Kart and New Super Mario Bros. "hardcore" all you want, but these games were still designed to attract the casual/young gamer. Not to say I don't find them fun and addicting, but I can hardlylive in a world where that's as traditional as games get.

The_Duke_Lives

In the end, the only reason why I'd see companies abandoning making these more traditional games for something else is if the traditional games stop making sales, and stop working for the companies from the standpoint of making money for them. The emphasis here is for the games they are making to stop working for them, not for some other genre to suddenly gain some popularity.

Whether or not you agree with this viewpoint, there is hardly anything you have, or can say that even remotely convinces me that the sort of success Nintendo's having with the DS and Wii are somehow going to cause some sort of dissolving of these more traditional games you enjoy, purely because they keep selling well, and there is a guarenteed, established market for them, which is much more promising to publishers than a possible/speculative market.

[QUOTE="dvader654"][QUOTE="The_Duke_Lives"][QUOTE="dvader654"][QUOTE="The_Duke_Lives"][QUOTE="dvader654"]

Absolutly nothing will change because of a few mini game style games come, nothing at all.

The_Duke_Lives

It is the existing developers that are shifting their focus, and it is Nintendo that has opened their eyes to this new market. A market that does not involve gamers like you and I, nor games that you and I would care to fiddle around with for more than 10 minutes at a time.

From a business perspective, Nintendo is to be applauded, but from a gamer's perspective, I don't see how any of us can be happy about the major success of the Wii and DS over more traditionalsystems like the X360 and PS3.

So well known companies will make a game or two in this new genre, so what. When FPSs hit you saw most companies scramble to make FPS, none of their main games disappeared. When RE clones hit Konami made their own, did MGS or Castlevania disappear, no. So instead of a genre we care about its one we don't, oh well, they make a game or two, they wont abandon what they do best.

In an extreme case that shows the Wii absolutely killing everyone in it's path, then I would say it's likely you would see companies even foregoing proven franchises like MGS for casual-friendly games, but at the moment, it looks like we will simply see a reduction in focus on the "real gamers", in favor of this non-gamer movement.

I for one think we lack enough great real gamer games already. The last thing we needed was for the Wii to be this huge success and reduce focus on us even more.

The fundamental flaw in this entire argument is that you assume the Wii equals mini-games, where do you get that idea from. So it has like three good selling mini-game titles, since when does that equate a shift in the entire focus of the game industry. Guess what the best selling game on the Wii is, Zelda. Guess what will be the best selling games on the Wii, Mario, Smash Bros, Metroid, Mario Kart, etc. all "normal" games. Nothing is happening, Nintendo found a new genre that sells some units, they will fit it in with their other franchises, they do it all the time. Other companies see that and what to copy Nintendo, let them, they will probably fail and go back to what they do.

Even in Japan where this whole big movement is supposedly taking place the vast vast majority of the best selling games are traditional games. Brain Age sold millions and millions of copies, well so did New Super Mario Bros. and Pokemon. Nintendogs was a huge hit, good for Nintendo, you know what wasn't a hit all the copy cat pet games that sold like crap. Nintendo is going to make a lot of money off of this new type of game, I highly doubt any other company will.

After experiencing games like Oblivion and seeing what the future holds with titles like Mass Effect, Bioshock, GTA4, and many others, the thought of going back to last generation andlooking at the Pokemons and Mario spinoffs as my hardcore treat depresses me greatly.

You can call games lik Mario Kart and New Super Mario Bros. "hardcore" all you want, but these games were still designed to attract the casual/young gamer. Not to say I don't find them fun and addicting, but I can hardlylive in a world where that's as traditional as games get.

Again, Oblivion was stripped down, which was good and bad, more good. But please do some research on the series before you go around saying Nintendo is the sole company dumbing down franchises. Look up Deus Ex while your at it.

[QUOTE="The_Duke_Lives"]If the extent of hardcore gaming by Nintendo means the likes of Pokemon and Smash Brothers, then count me out.

After experiencing games like Oblivion and seeing what the future holds with titles like Mass Effect, Bioshock, GTA4, and many others, the thought of going back to last generation andlooking at the Pokemons and Mario spinoffs as my hardcore treat depresses me greatly.

You can call games lik Mario Kart and New Super Mario Bros. "hardcore" all you want, but these games were still designed to attract the casual/young gamer. Not to say I don't find them fun and addicting, but I can hardlylive in a world where that's as traditional as games get.

Skylock00

In the end, the only reason why I'd see companies abandoning making these more traditional games for something else is if the traditional games stop making sales, and stop working for the companies from the standpoint of making money for them. The emphasis here is for the games they are making to stop working for them, not for some other genre to suddenly gain some popularity.

Whether or not you agree with this viewpoint, there is hardly anything you have, or can say that even remotely convinces me that the sort of success Nintendo's having with the DS and Wii are somehow going to cause some sort of dissolving of these more traditional games you enjoy, purely because they keep selling well, and there is a guarenteed, established market for them, which is much more promising to publishers than a possible/speculative market.

If people weren't eating up the Wii the way they are, then simply having lower production costs would'nt be enough to entice developers to develop more casual friendly games for the platform, but the fact that it's selling so well is a clearindication to producers that the vast majority of people don't care about next gen HD gaming with deep and complex philosophies, and are perfectly satisified with being shoveled shallow as a puddle games that are very pick up and play oriented and don't require much investment or risk on the production company's part.

I don't see why it's so difficult to figure this out.

This is getting to be a broken record. The people buying Wii Sports and the people buying Bioshock are not the same people. What the Wii sports audience buys doesn't affect what the Bioshock crowd buys and vice versa. Did Nintendog stop Castlevania DOS from becoming one of the best selling in the series? Did Wii Sports stop Zelda from outselling Wind Waker, did it stop Tramua Center from being Atlus's biggest selling title? The best selling titles sell to both crowds, such as NSMB or Halo. MS and Sony are shooting THEMSELVES by segmenting their users with multiple sku's, reversing industry growth by pricing out potential players, and limiting their sales by catering to a historically limited market. The industry would be in a big slump were it not for the Wii and DS.