N64 vs. Saturn vs. PS

since there is some sort of glitch going on in GS, I can't do a quick quote to answer directly, but here is my answer to Banjo's comment

I wouldn't recommend a console like you do , because when recommending a console to someone , no matter when , you have to take into account which genres they like best.

if a person likes fighitng games and RPGs , but cares little for 3D platformers, do you really think Im going to go and recommend an N64?

if a person likes 3D platformers, FPS games and Nintend's 1st party games, then of course I would recommend the N64, no system is perfect, every system has its weakness and

But of course you would recommend the N64 , because rather then using your brain , you would just recommend the N64 based on your own feelings and what you like.

and judging from your other posts, you pretty much think the N64 is god's gift to gamers as far as youre concenred, so there is no way you would say anything bad about it.

your entire statement there is very biased and quite arrogant actually, since you immediatly assume that we all must like the same games as you do, and therefore must prefer the N64, who the heck do you think you are to try and tell us what we do and do not like?

on the other hand , if you read the few posts above you , as well as others Ive made over time, you will notice Im quite willing to go and complain about any system , Saturn , N64 , PS1, or whatever, if a game sucks, it sucks, simple as that, and I couldnt care what system its on.

You would also notice I prefer the PS1 to the Saturn , but that is besides the point.

another thing I find funny is that you seem to be in this mindset that me and everyone else are against the N64, and you try pointing out how its got "no loading" and all the rest of it.

when the heck did I ever say that all N64 games have loading? of course the vast majority of N64 games do not have loading times.

if you actually bothered to read what I wrote instead of going on some defense from an invisible and non existent enemy , you would notice is that all I said was that N64 wasn't perfect, just like every system , it has its good and bad, but you simply can't accept even that.

and there you go again , youve essentially lost this argument quite ago, you know you can't beat me in a debate over the Saturn , so you try and impose artificial conditions on the game library like the importing , the games are there so deal with it, its just you can't accept that the Saturn may be better then the N64 in some areas (and vice versa), and what does that show?

and its funny you talk about facts when youre the one who tries to be unfair by imposing limits on the facts, essentially a form of censorship, in order to try and make your point of view correct

how about give me a list of all the fighting games on the n64? lets compare them to the Saturn's

or do you not want to do that, because you know you would lose, because Im putting artificial conditions on it just like you are.

so we have reached the conclusion that you can't win, as you resort to trying to impose limits on the argument and using your opinion as facts

seriously , your argument is pretty pathetic, no offense, but you really can't argue if you try and change the conditions of the debate every so often

stop bothering me unless you can debate properly , remove your own personal feelings from this, and not cheat by imposing limits on the argument,

gaurdian hereos. enough said.

gaurdian hereos. enough said.

fadeetoblackk

[QUOTE="fadeetoblackk"]

gaurdian hereos. enough said.

Darkman2007

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="fadeetoblackk"]

gaurdian hereos. enough said.

fadeetoblackk

its a different kind of game, Die Hard Arcade (also called Dynamite Deka in Japan) was an arcade game originally (ran on the STV board, ie a Saturn arcade machine), so its shorter, but its very good,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybOo4ZTVhmI

if I had to say , I would say go for the Japanese version , Dynamite Deka, its cheaper, and its a beatem up with almost no text (other then the quick time events)

even though its called Die Hard , the game was made by Sega and has almost nothing to do with Die Hard .

for the record I did own Guardian Heroes at one point, but sold it, I just didn't get into it sadly

Dude N64 has a larger array of games that were well recieved and your honestly telling me that you would recomend someone a Saturn or Playstation over the N64 back in the day. If you had a PC you could play alot of the best Ps1 games like MGS, FF7, FF8, SOul Reaver etc. The Nintendo 64 had more games that were universally well recieved on that system that were exclusive to it. The Saturn had alot of arcade ports. Are you telling me if you met someone back in the day you would recommend them a Saturn over a N64? The few games that had loading times as nameless pointed out were ports. Before you go on a tirade about how reviews do not matter its all an individual... I am fine with you thinking the Saturn but reviewers declare the N64 better atleast in my eyes and the users do as well (atleast in ratings and reviews ) Please give me a list of the non-import best Saturn games because I would like to draw a comparison. Btw this topic is not a whole everything is subjective but facts rather a debate over which is better and you are side stepping.Banjo_Kongfooie

Again, you have shown nothing to prove that the N64 is actually better than the Saturn or Playstation. I asked you to get me some hard numbers to back up you're claims and all I saw was a pile of random numbers that made no sense.

Gaming is a purely subjective form of entertainment when it comes to enjoyment. You enjoy it because you enjoy it, end of story. You prefer the N64 over the Saturn and Playstation? Fine, no one is going to knock you on that, we all have out preferences. But when you go around telling people that they should prefer the N64 over the other consoles, that's when you just need to stop. You can't force you preferences down other people's throat like it's a fact.

Not to mention you keep falling back on professional journalistic reviews as to prove that the N64 is better than the Saturn with this "better good to bad game ratio." Professional journalistic reviews should be taken into account, no doubt, but it's not the only factor that should be accounted for.

So, again, if you want to follow your own logic and really prove that the N64 has a "better good to bad game ratio," you're gonna need to back it up with the some hard numbers and research. Get all of the aggregate reviews for all 387 N64 games, all 540 Saturn games, & all 2,418Playstation games (lol!), and then come of with a ratio for each using some actual math and mathematical formulas, not just by glancing at it. Then compare those ratios between the systems and see which is higher. Looks like a lot of work to prove your point..... :P

[QUOTE="Banjo_Kongfooie"]Dude N64 has a larger array of games that were well recieved and your honestly telling me that you would recomend someone a Saturn or Playstation over the N64 back in the day. If you had a PC you could play alot of the best Ps1 games like MGS, FF7, FF8, SOul Reaver etc. The Nintendo 64 had more games that were universally well recieved on that system that were exclusive to it. The Saturn had alot of arcade ports. Are you telling me if you met someone back in the day you would recommend them a Saturn over a N64? The few games that had loading times as nameless pointed out were ports. Before you go on a tirade about how reviews do not matter its all an individual... I am fine with you thinking the Saturn but reviewers declare the N64 better atleast in my eyes and the users do as well (atleast in ratings and reviews ) Please give me a list of the non-import best Saturn games because I would like to draw a comparison. Btw this topic is not a whole everything is subjective but facts rather a debate over which is better and you are side stepping.AcidSoldner

Again, you have shown nothing to prove that the N64 is actually better than the Saturn or Playstation. I asked you to get me some hard numbers to back up you're claims and all I saw was a pile of random numbers that made no sense.

Gaming is a purely subjective form of entertainment when it comes to enjoyment. You enjoy it because you enjoy it, end of story. You prefer the N64 over the Saturn and Playstation? Fine, no one is going to knock you on that, we all have out preferences. But when you go around telling people that they should prefer the N64 over the other consoles, that's when you just need to stop. You can't force you preferences down other people's throat like it's a fact.

Not to mention you keep falling back on professional journalistic reviews as to prove that the N64 is better than the Saturn with this "better good to bad game ratio." Professional journalistic reviews should be taken into account, no doubt, but it's not the only factor that should be accounted for.

So, again, if you want to follow your own logic and really prove that the N64 has a "better good to bad game ratio," you're gonna need to back it up with the some hard numbers and research. Get all of the aggregate reviews for all 387 N64 games, all 540 Saturn games, & all 2,418Playstation games (lol!), and then come of with a ratio for each using some actual math and mathematical formulas, not just by glancing at it. Then compare those ratios between the systems and see which is higher. Looks like a lot of work to prove your point..... :P

what I find funny is that he acts as though one of us said the N64 was bad, defending it and all , when in fact Ive never said one system is "better" then the other.

and the most ironic thing, is that he admitted in another thread that he does not own a Saturn , yet he is quite happy to make judgements on it (he said his friend owns it, but that means nothing), and he talks about facts????

that whole thing about relying on other people's opinion to back up his own is also dumb, to me it shows he can't debate if he is constantly forced to rely on the opinion of others.

Banjo_Kongfooie you have gotten owned. lock the thread and go to bed.

Banjo_Kongfooie you have gotten owned. lock the thread and go to bed.

fadeetoblackk

if he wants, I could start pointng out to critic reviews I thought were unfair/wrong, and I could post screenshots of those games to prove things too (unlike him who posted emulator screenshots in another thread, I use a capture card from the real hardware)

here is one example, the gamespot review of Street Fighter Alpha 3 for the Dreamcast

Review

and I quote

"The Dreamcast version of Alpha 3 keeps all the great modes and additions from the PlayStation version but also uses the more powerful hardware to its benefit, delivering larger character sizes, sharper and more colorful graphics, and extremely minimal load times."

"the Dreamcast version is a flawless conversion of the arcade game"

if thats the case, how would they explain this (I own the DC/Saturn version , and borrowed the PS1 version a while ago for a blog I did)

SFA3 PS1

SFA3 DC

SFZ3 Saturn

all of these were taken directly from the consoles, using the same video cables for each.

if the Dreamcast version is such a great conversion , why are the sprites not proportional compared to the PS1 or Saturn version?.

moreoever, why are the sprites in the Saturn version larger?, and the overall colour is also nicer on the Saturn

the game also has some control issues, as I found the controls a bit off, and even the hit detection to be a bit off compared to the other versions.

in its defence the DC version has the fastest loading, and more animation then the PS1 version (in this picture , the people at the back never face you in the PS1 version due to the animation missing) , but the Saturn version has just as much frames as the DC.

Im not saying the DC version is bad, but to declare it the best is frankly wrong, though GS didn't review the Saturn version sadly, so who knows what score they would have given it.

and I can do the same to more games, like Fifa98 , Dead Or Alive , Last Bronx, Virtual On , Darkstalkers 3 , Resident Evil , Grandia , Burning Rangers, etc

dude you used a capture card on all that? haha Your legit! and yeah dreamcast is boss. Those screenshots really prove a lot. Emulation screen shots dont prove anything anywayfadeetoblackk

[QUOTE="AcidSoldner"]

[QUOTE="Banjo_Kongfooie"]Dude N64 has a larger array of games that were well recieved and your honestly telling me that you would recomend someone a Saturn or Playstation over the N64 back in the day. If you had a PC you could play alot of the best Ps1 games like MGS, FF7, FF8, SOul Reaver etc. The Nintendo 64 had more games that were universally well recieved on that system that were exclusive to it. The Saturn had alot of arcade ports. Are you telling me if you met someone back in the day you would recommend them a Saturn over a N64? The few games that had loading times as nameless pointed out were ports. Before you go on a tirade about how reviews do not matter its all an individual... I am fine with you thinking the Saturn but reviewers declare the N64 better atleast in my eyes and the users do as well (atleast in ratings and reviews ) Please give me a list of the non-import best Saturn games because I would like to draw a comparison. Btw this topic is not a whole everything is subjective but facts rather a debate over which is better and you are side stepping.Darkman2007

Again, you have shown nothing to prove that the N64 is actually better than the Saturn or Playstation. I asked you to get me some hard numbers to back up you're claims and all I saw was a pile of random numbers that made no sense.

Gaming is a purely subjective form of entertainment when it comes to enjoyment. You enjoy it because you enjoy it, end of story. You prefer the N64 over the Saturn and Playstation? Fine, no one is going to knock you on that, we all have out preferences. But when you go around telling people that they should prefer the N64 over the other consoles, that's when you just need to stop. You can't force you preferences down other people's throat like it's a fact.

Not to mention you keep falling back on professional journalistic reviews as to prove that the N64 is better than the Saturn with this "better good to bad game ratio." Professional journalistic reviews should be taken into account, no doubt, but it's not the only factor that should be accounted for.

So, again, if you want to follow your own logic and really prove that the N64 has a "better good to bad game ratio," you're gonna need to back it up with the some hard numbers and research. Get all of the aggregate reviews for all 387 N64 games, all 540 Saturn games, & all 2,418Playstation games (lol!), and then come of with a ratio for each using some actual math and mathematical formulas, not just by glancing at it. Then compare those ratios between the systems and see which is higher. Looks like a lot of work to prove your point..... :P

what I find funny is that he acts as though one of us said the N64 was bad, defending it and all , when in fact Ive never said one system is "better" then the other.

and the most ironic thing, is that he admitted in another thread that he does not own a Saturn , yet he is quite happy to make judgements on it (he said his friend owns it, but that means nothing), and he talks about facts????

that whole thing about relying on other people's opinion to back up his own is also dumb, to me it shows he can't debate if he is constantly forced to rely on the opinion of others.

Well said, the turth about Banjo is that he to me is not ready to post on forums and I do think that he is a kid who is trying to argue. There are other kids on here, that act mature but he does not. I think he should lay off forums and learn a bit more about gaming before posting here.

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]

[QUOTE="AcidSoldner"]

Again, you have shown nothing to prove that the N64 is actually better than the Saturn or Playstation. I asked you to get me some hard numbers to back up you're claims and all I saw was a pile of random numbers that made no sense.

Gaming is a purely subjective form of entertainment when it comes to enjoyment. You enjoy it because you enjoy it, end of story. You prefer the N64 over the Saturn and Playstation? Fine, no one is going to knock you on that, we all have out preferences. But when you go around telling people that they should prefer the N64 over the other consoles, that's when you just need to stop. You can't force you preferences down other people's throat like it's a fact.

Not to mention you keep falling back on professional journalistic reviews as to prove that the N64 is better than the Saturn with this "better good to bad game ratio." Professional journalistic reviews should be taken into account, no doubt, but it's not the only factor that should be accounted for.

So, again, if you want to follow your own logic and really prove that the N64 has a "better good to bad game ratio," you're gonna need to back it up with the some hard numbers and research. Get all of the aggregate reviews for all 387 N64 games, all 540 Saturn games, & all 2,418Playstation games (lol!), and then come of with a ratio for each using some actual math and mathematical formulas, not just by glancing at it. Then compare those ratios between the systems and see which is higher. Looks like a lot of work to prove your point..... :P

TheTrueMagusX1

what I find funny is that he acts as though one of us said the N64 was bad, defending it and all , when in fact Ive never said one system is "better" then the other.

and the most ironic thing, is that he admitted in another thread that he does not own a Saturn , yet he is quite happy to make judgements on it (he said his friend owns it, but that means nothing), and he talks about facts????

that whole thing about relying on other people's opinion to back up his own is also dumb, to me it shows he can't debate if he is constantly forced to rely on the opinion of others.

Well said, the turth about Banjo is that he to me is not ready to post on forums and I do think that he is a kid who is trying to argue. There are other kids on here, that act mature but he does not. I think he should lay off forums and learn a bit more about gaming before posting here.

here is another example of a review which got it kind of wrong, Grandia

Review

and I quote

"Even though the PlayStation is more proficient with 3D than the Saturn was, it struggles just as much with the 3D towns, dropping a number of frames in particularly intensive areas. The PlayStation handles the transparency-laden spell effects with far more panache than the Saturn did"

"Grandia doesn't stack up today as well as it did when it was originally introduced two years ago"

in here they are implying the PS1 version looks better then the Saturn version due to better transparenciesand that it looks bland by 1999 standards

here are comparison screenshots

Grandia PS1

Grandia Saturn

Grandia PS1

Grandia Saturn

Grandia PS1

Grandia Saturn

well of course Grandia on the PS1 looks a bit bland in 1999, it looks worse then the Saturn version from 1997

worse water effects, smaller sprites, blander textures, an even more inconsistent frame rate, the only thing the PS1 version does better are some transparencies.

so much for the Saturn being worse at 3D, they sure picked the wrong game to prove that.

[QUOTE="fadeetoblackk"]

Banjo_Kongfooie you have gotten owned. lock the thread and go to bed.

Darkman2007

if he wants, I could start pointng out to critic reviews I thought were unfair/wrong, and I could post screenshots of those games to prove things too (unlike him who posted emulator screenshots in another thread, I use a capture card from the real hardware)

here is one example, the gamespot review of Street Fighter Alpha 3 for the Dreamcast

Review

and I quote

"The Dreamcast version of Alpha 3 keeps all the great modes and additions from the PlayStation version but also uses the more powerful hardware to its benefit, delivering larger character sizes, sharper and more colorful graphics, and extremely minimal load times."

"the Dreamcast version is a flawless conversion of the arcade game"

if thats the case, how would they explain this (I own the DC/Saturn version , and borrowed the PS1 version a while ago for a blog I did)

SFA3 PS1

SFA3 DC

SFZ3 Saturn

all of these were taken directly from the consoles, using the same video cables for each.

if the Dreamcast version is such a great conversion , why are the sprites not proportional compared to the PS1 or Saturn version?.

moreoever, why are the sprites in the Saturn version larger?, and the overall colour is also nicer on the Saturn

the game also has some control issues, as I found the controls a bit off, and even the hit detection to be a bit off compared to the other versions.

in its defence the DC version has the fastest loading, and more animation then the PS1 version (in this picture , the people at the back never face you in the PS1 version due to the animation missing) , but the Saturn version has just as much frames as the DC.

Im not saying the DC version is bad, but to declare it the best is frankly wrong, though GS didn't review the Saturn version sadly, so who knows what score they would have given it.

and I can do the same to more games, like Fifa98 , Dead Or Alive , Last Bronx, Virtual On , Darkstalkers 3 , Resident Evil , Grandia , Burning Rangers, etc

Rakuga Kids on the N64 is better:

:P

that looks pretty bad actually, pretty blurry, the colouring on the characters looks awful too.

and judging from videos Ive seen ,its pretty slow compared to SFA3.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUcbJaMNM78

this is a game that actually looks good.

youre not actually implying the N64's fake 2D method of rendering 2D graphics (essentially drawing everything as a flat polygon and then pass off the detail as textures) with the limited texture memory is better then the Saturn's sprite renderer and dedicated VDP2 background processor ????

Ill agree the N64 is the better 3D machine (all advantages and disadvantages considerd) , but 2D? nah

youre not actually implying the N64's fake 2D method of rendering 2D graphics (essentially drawing everything as a flat polygon and then pass off the detail as textures) with the limited texture memory is better then the Saturn's sprite renderer and dedicated VDP2 background processor ????

Ill agree the N64 is the better 3D machine (all advantages and disadvantages considerd) , but 2D? nah

Darkman2007

I was joking but it was a pretty unique fighter.

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]

youre not actually implying the N64's fake 2D method of rendering 2D graphics (essentially drawing everything as a flat polygon and then pass off the detail as textures) with the limited texture memory is better then the Saturn's sprite renderer and dedicated VDP2 background processor ????

Ill agree the N64 is the better 3D machine (all advantages and disadvantages considerd) , but 2D? nah

nameless12345

I was joking but it was a pretty unique fighter.

[QUOTE="nameless12345"]

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]

youre not actually implying the N64's fake 2D method of rendering 2D graphics (essentially drawing everything as a flat polygon and then pass off the detail as textures) with the limited texture memory is better then the Saturn's sprite renderer and dedicated VDP2 background processor ????

Ill agree the N64 is the better 3D machine (all advantages and disadvantages considerd) , but 2D? nah

Darkman2007

I was joking but it was a pretty unique fighter.

If you look at Killer Instinct Gold you'll see that the backgrounds were actually 3D polygon. It also missed some of the character animations present in the arcade version.

I believe N64 could easily handle an arcade perfect port of Killer Instinct but the cartridge format prevented that.

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="nameless12345"]

I was joking but it was a pretty unique fighter.

nameless12345

If you look at Killer Instinct Gold you'll see that the backgrounds were actually 3D polygon. It also missed some of the character animations present in the arcade version.

I believe N64 could easily handle an arcade perfect port of Killer Instinct but the cartridge format prevented that.

it was mostly the texture memory , the carts were an issue but could have been overcome.

[QUOTE="nameless12345"]

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] I know, it certainly looks unique, though it does look pretty slow. I still would have liked to see how SFA3 would have fared on the N64. theoretically the N64 is capable of some pretty decent 2D , but it has to rely on its texture memory, which was probably the biggest bottleneck in the system. maybe developers could have done better if they really tried but it seems that for a long time, the Saturn held the 2D crown, and when it died off, developers just went to the Dreamcast while still releasing PS1 versions (sometimes not good ones)Darkman2007

If you look at Killer Instinct Gold you'll see that the backgrounds were actually 3D polygon. It also missed some of the character animations present in the arcade version.

I believe N64 could easily handle an arcade perfect port of Killer Instinct but the cartridge format prevented that.

it was mostly the texture memory , the carts were an issue but could have been overcome.

The texture memory issues were mostly because of the catridge ROM format that the N64 used lol. :P

The biggest N64 catridges were 64MB compared to a 650MB compact discs that the Saturn and Playstation used. That's a pretty wide gap. Kinda hard to compress all of those textures with such a limitation.

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]

[QUOTE="nameless12345"]

If you look at Killer Instinct Gold you'll see that the backgrounds were actually 3D polygon. It also missed some of the character animations present in the arcade version.

I believe N64 could easily handle an arcade perfect port of Killer Instinct but the cartridge format prevented that.

AcidSoldner

it was mostly the texture memory , the carts were an issue but could have been overcome.

The texture memory issues were mostly because of the catridge ROM format that the N64 used lol. :P

The biggest N64 catridges were 64MB compared to a 650MB compact discs that the Saturn and Playstation used. That's a pretty wide gap. Kinda hard to compress all of those textures with such a limitation.

youre partially wrong there for a few reasons.

1) while you are right that CDs were 650MB, not many games are anywhere near that , in fact, Ive checked a few PS1 games that i own , and the majority are not much over 200 or 300MB , just because the disc is there doesn't mean its full.

also I wonder how much of that was CD music and FMVs too.

2) Texture RAM is not about what you can put on the cartridge, its about what textures the system can hold , and thats where the real limitation was. less texture RAM means even more compression , worse colour, lower resolution textures.

since there is some sort of glitch going on in GS, I can't do a quick quote to answer directly, but here is my answer to Banjo's comment

I wouldn't recommend a console like you do , because when recommending a console to someone , no matter when , you have to take into account which genres they like best.

if a person likes fighitng games and RPGs , but cares little for 3D platformers, do you really think Im going to go and recommend an N64?

if a person likes 3D platformers, FPS games and Nintend's 1st party games, then of course I would recommend the N64, no system is perfect, every system has its weakness and

But of course you would recommend the N64 , because rather then using your brain , you would just recommend the N64 based on your own feelings and what you like.

and judging from your other posts, you pretty much think the N64 is god's gift to gamers as far as youre concenred, so there is no way you would say anything bad about it.

your entire statement there is very biased and quite arrogant actually, since you immediatly assume that we all must like the same games as you do, and therefore must prefer the N64, who the heck do you think you are to try and tell us what we do and do not like?

on the other hand , if you read the few posts above you , as well as others Ive made over time, you will notice Im quite willing to go and complain about any system , Saturn , N64 , PS1, or whatever, if a game sucks, it sucks, simple as that, and I couldnt care what system its on.

You would also notice I prefer the PS1 to the Saturn , but that is besides the point.

another thing I find funny is that you seem to be in this mindset that me and everyone else are against the N64, and you try pointing out how its got "no loading" and all the rest of it.

when the heck did I ever say that all N64 games have loading? of course the vast majority of N64 games do not have loading times.

if you actually bothered to read what I wrote instead of going on some defense from an invisible and non existent enemy , you would notice is that all I said was that N64 wasn't perfect, just like every system , it has its good and bad, but you simply can't accept even that.

and there you go again , youve essentially lost this argument quite ago, you know you can't beat me in a debate over the Saturn , so you try and impose artificial conditions on the game library like the importing , the games are there so deal with it, its just you can't accept that the Saturn may be better then the N64 in some areas (and vice versa), and what does that show?

and its funny you talk about facts when youre the one who tries to be unfair by imposing limits on the facts, essentially a form of censorship, in order to try and make your point of view correct

how about give me a list of all the fighting games on the n64? lets compare them to the Saturn's

or do you not want to do that, because you know you would lose, because Im putting artificial conditions on it just like you are.

so we have reached the conclusion that you can't win, as you resort to trying to impose limits on the argument and using your opinion as facts

seriously , your argument is pretty pathetic, no offense, but you really can't argue if you try and change the conditions of the debate every so often

stop bothering me unless you can debate properly , remove your own personal feelings from this, and not cheat by imposing limits on the argument,

Darkman2007

Okay buddy I actually laughed reading this after reading your previous posts but I will get to that part later. First of all it is fine that you disagree with my recommendation to someone to get a N64 that is your opinion.

Addressing your next point I used statistical data (even if it was subjective it is data none the less) to back up my opinion not my "feelings" alone.

What qualifies you to make hyperbolic assumptions about what I think of the N64, you are not me and this goes for you saying I think everyone has to agree with me. Where are you getting this from?

Next point confuses me more... If a game sucks that is your opinion... your opinion does not equal fact and when you do not explain why you have that opinion (why what sucks about the game sucks) then your opinion is an invalid one in a debate or discussion board sorry.

Also the fact that you prefer the ps1 over the saturn is very much the point of this topic and your right I would not know because I do not think you have stated dirrectly an answer to the topic in this topic but now ( I may be wrong).

Again you are not qualified to state the mindset I am in and clearly you need to understand that I was stating that as a reason I prefer the N64 because it is head in shoulders above the beefy load times found on CD systems.

What do you mean I cannot "beat" you in a debate... That is not a fact and the winner is subject as far as I am concerned... That is the funny part that you are arguing that every opinion matters but when someone disaggrees with you they lose. Btw I also did recognise that the Saturn had the best arcade ports which is an area it is better in.

What do you mean that importing games in a different language are artificial conditions? The fact of the matter is I do not know Japanese so every game that is only in Japanese is moot in an arguement against me. I mean the Saturn needs another disc to play imports too.

Fine fighting games...

WWF No Mercy

Wrestlemania 2000

WCW Nitro

WCW Mayhem

WCW Backstage Assault

WWF Attitude

WCW/NWO Revenge

Bio FREAKS

WWF War Zone

WCW/NWO Revenge

WCW vs. NWO: World Tour

Killer Instinct Gold

ClayFighter: The Sculptor's Cut (63 1/2)

ECW Hardcore Revolution

Fighters Destiny

Fighter Destiny 2

Dark Rift

Deadly Arts

Flying Dragon

Mace: The Dark Age

War Gods

Transformers: Beast Wars Metals 64

Tom and Jerry in Fists of Furry

Super Smash Bros.

Rakuga Kids

Mortal Kombat 4

Mortal Kombat Trilogy

Finally, no we have not reached that conclusion. You did, and your the one using your opinion as facts and even making up facts.

Again buddy your opinion and I am in no way changing the conditions imports not in english are usually not considered a part of the library in a debate on an english forum.

You are the one posting in this topic and if you are honestly bothered in a topic like this maybe you should steer clear of "Vs." topics and how can I cheat in a debate lol.

^^^ Yo, he learned how to use wikipedia and thesaurus.com... what a hero.

here is a response to Banjo's comment again , since GS is still giving me a few issues.

what do you mean statistical data? youre going to a website where not every person who bought the game gave a score (unless Ocarina of Time only sold 26 thousand copies, because thats the number of people who gave it a score).

and thats a pretty arrogant statement saying "I think everybody agrees with me", actually, its very arrogant to think that.

and I make assumptions just like you did, youre assuming that everybody agrees with you, you assume things about a console you know very little about. you also assume that because the critics and user score is good, then a game must be good.

if youre allowed to make silly assumptions , then I can too.

and yes, I did say I prefer the PS1 to the Saturn and N64 , you just didn't bother reading it/ didn't see it.

the other thing you ignored was the Saturn Bomberman vs Bomberman64 comment I made.

you said Bomberman 64 is one of the best multiplayer games ever made, and yet the critic and user reviews for Saturn Bomberman are higher.

so this confuses me, you say Bomberman 64 is one of the best, but in your opinion , the critics and user score are always right???? thats contradictory.

but of course you would ignore that , since it goes against your argument, so you would brush it away

and you see, you never stated the main reason you like the N64 is because of the loading, you said it was a reason , but mentioned the games.

besides I think youre exaggerating, as most games by that time had fairly moderate load times.

what you just wrote there looks like a play on words, so let me explain

if a person likes/dislikes a game , its opinion , if he disagrees with another review , he can explain why, not a 10000 word report, but just give some reasons, decent ones.

what I did a few posts before was just that, I gave my reasons to show why I think the reviewer was wrong, and posted comparison pics to support my argument, he doesnt have to agree with me, but I was making a point that reviewers too get things wrong.

and that importing statement shows how limited your knowledge of the Saturn is (or maybe just import gaming).

the majority of import Saturn games have english menus and character names, especially in the fighitng/arcade/shmup/puzzle, etc and other genres which have very little text. Usually the only thing in Japanese is the winning text or character voices, but in these kinds of games, who cares.

heck some games have the option to set the game's language to english completly, two I own being Vampire Savior and Samurai Spirits 4.

now are you really going to tell me youre not counting import games because the winning screens are in Japanese?? come on , if a game can be navigated in English , and doesn't have much text, its perfectly playable by non Japanese speaking gamers.

regarding that list of fighting games there are a few issues.

1) Wrestling games are not fighitng games, different genre, the play mechanics are totally different.

2) I had a look at the critic and user score of each game in that list that isnt a wrestling game, and I came up with some interesting results.

Critic score comes first, User 2nd

Bio Freaks - 6.0 , 6.3

Killer Instinct Gold - 7.4 , 8.2

Clayfighter 63 1/2 - 3.1 , 5.9

Fighters Destiny - 7.8 , 7.3

Fighters Destiny 2 - 5.8 , 7.1

Dark Rift - 5.0 , 5.7

Deadly Arts - 3.4 , 4.9

Flying Dragon - 5.8 , 7.7

Mace : The Dark Age - 5.4 , 6.9

War Gods - 6.1 , 6.0

Transformers 64 - no review , User score 6.8

Tom and Jerry Fists of Fury - 6.6 , 7.1

Smash Bros - 7.5 , 8.9

Rakuga Kids - no review, User score at 6.0

MK4 - 8.9 , 8.4

MKT - 5.8 , 7.7

so according to this list, and the critic/user score you seem to value, quite a few of these games are pretty bad, or mediocre at best.

and you call these fine games???? come on , thats a contradiction in a very big way :P

I mean if youre going to tell me review scores matter at least don't bring up games that the "review scores" said were bad, and pass them off as good.

wait, youre saying Im making up facts, and yet the amount of contradictions youve made, by claiming reviews are fact and then ruining your own argument.

and that comes from someone who posted emulator screenshots and tried to pass them off as proof of the N64, 3D capability??? come on , youre being very hypocritical.

at least the pics I used were taken directly from the hardware, and show exactly the point I was making

what Im bothered by is that fact that you try and impose your opinion on other people, the only times I usually debate with people is things like tech specs overall game libraries, not indivdual games and wheter they like that game or not, at least not often.

on the other hand youve shown on quite a few occasions, that you get upset when someone say they dislike a game you like, and seemingly demand an explanation.

none of them have said you are wrong, and I doubt they could care less what games you like and dislike, they should only give evidence when they tell you "Banjo, you are wrong, and here is why"

as long as they played the game (and preferably owned it too) they are entitled to their own opinion , and yet you in a hypocritical manner accuse me of being intolerent of opinion ?

that entire post of yours in fact is full of contradictions.

just to expand further about the relative ease of playing import games, Banjo claimed that import games should not be counted in any discussion because you can't understand them

so I went ahead just now and took pictures with my capture card, of a few Japanese imports I own on the Saturn , any part in Japanese will be pointed out

X-men Vs Street Fighter , character winning quotes and character endings are in Japanese, but this is a fighting game, so.... these arent big issues.

Marvel Superheroes Vs Street Fighter , same as above

Street Fighter Zero/Alpha 3 , same as above for the most part.

Vampire Savior , the menus are in English , and here is the options menu that lets you change the whole game, character quotes and endings , into English.

Samurai Spirits/Shodown 4 , same as above.

Real Bout Fatal Fury Special , same as above.

Dead Or Alive, the game is 99% english, with the exception of the move lists in the training mode.

and why stop with fighting games

Daytona USA CE (the Japan only 3rd version of Daytona on the Saturn) the entire game is in English.

Castlevania Symphony of the Night , weapon names and character dialogue is in Japanese, but the game is perfectly playable.

Dynamite Deka/Die Hard Arcade , the whole game is in english , with the exception of the quick time events, but those are easy to figure out.

actually why stop with the Saturn

Ridge Racer Type 4 PS1 (I own the JP import) the game is mostly in English with the exception of the near useless dialogue from the other driver.

Metal Gear Solid Integral , the Japan onlly expanded edition of Metal Gear Solid.

The menu to change the language

ironically enough, in this version , all of the voice acting and dialogue is all in English (they used the voice acting from the english version)

and I could keep on going, but this is going to get out of hand.

the bottom line, is that Banjo's claim to import games being unplayable due to beng in Japanese is pretty bogus for the most part, as all of these import games (and I could name quite a few others on a number of systems) are perfectly playable.

the only exception being text heavy RPGs , but for the most part, playing imports is no big deal.

[QUOTE="nameless12345"]

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] I know, it certainly looks unique, though it does look pretty slow. I still would have liked to see how SFA3 would have fared on the N64. theoretically the N64 is capable of some pretty decent 2D , but it has to rely on its texture memory, which was probably the biggest bottleneck in the system. maybe developers could have done better if they really tried but it seems that for a long time, the Saturn held the 2D crown, and when it died off, developers just went to the Dreamcast while still releasing PS1 versions (sometimes not good ones)Darkman2007

If you look at Killer Instinct Gold you'll see that the backgrounds were actually 3D polygon. It also missed some of the character animations present in the arcade version.

I believe N64 could easily handle an arcade perfect port of Killer Instinct but the cartridge format prevented that.

it was mostly the texture memory , the carts were an issue but could have been overcome.

I don't see how FMV backgrounds from the original KI arcade could not be done on the N64 would it have a bigger storage space. Those FMVs were stored on a hard drive in the arcade version so even if they would compress them it would be still hard (if not impossible) to pull them off on the N64 cartridge.

Also I'm not sure if PS1 really had more texture memory than N64 had. I think many people don't really know the way N64 works. N64 had two graphics modes, the "Fast 3D" and "Turbo 3D" mode. In the Fast 3D mode, it had filtered textures (the main graphical advantage of the N64 over PS1 and Saturn), but a limitation of only 100k polygons per second. But it Turbo 3D mode, it could do up to 600k polygons per second without texture filtering which is more than twice as much than PS1 and Saturn could do. No commercial games use the latter mode but if they did they could have twice the polygon detail PS1 and Saturn had in their own quality. Some devs like Rare, Factor 5 and Boss Games used their own, custom microcodes and it has to be said that their N64 games look a league above the other games.

After all, FMVs could simply be streamed from the CD if the console had a CD drive.

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]

[QUOTE="nameless12345"]

If you look at Killer Instinct Gold you'll see that the backgrounds were actually 3D polygon. It also missed some of the character animations present in the arcade version.

I believe N64 could easily handle an arcade perfect port of Killer Instinct but the cartridge format prevented that.

nameless12345

it was mostly the texture memory , the carts were an issue but could have been overcome.

I don't see how FMV backgrounds from the original KI arcade could not be done on the N64 would it have a bigger storage space. Those FMVs were stored on a hard drive in the arcade version so even if they would compress them it would be still hard (if not impossible) to pull them off on the N64 cartridge.

Also I'm not sure if PS1 really had more texture memory than N64 had. I think many people don't really know the way N64 works. N64 had two graphics modes, the "Fast 3D" and "Turbo 3D" mode. In the Fast 3D mode, it had filtered textures (the main graphical advantage of the N64 over PS1 and Saturn), but a limitation of only 100k polygons per second. But it Turbo 3D mode, it could do up to 600k polygons per second without texture filtering which is more than twice as much than PS1 and Saturn could do. No commercial games use the latter mode but if they did they could have twice the polygon detail PS1 and Saturn had in their own quality. Some devs like Rare, Factor 5 and Boss Games used their own, custom microcodes and it has to be said that their N64 games look a league above the other games.

After all, FMVs could simply be streamed from the CD if the console had a CD drive.

of course Rare's games looked better then the vast majority of 3rd party stuff.

just like Sega's Saturn games were usually better looking then the vast majority of 3rd party games on the system (with the exception of a few like Tecmo)

just to give you an idea.

Sega released Virtua Fighter 2 in late 1995, I don't care what anybody thinks of the series, but in terms of visuals and frame rate (60fps) , there is no fighting game on either the PS1 or Saturn that got close to this at the time, even Tekken 2 which came out later looks worse (though later games like Dead Or Alive and Tekken 3 did outdo it)

In early 1996, Acclaim released Mortal Kombat 2 on the Saturn , it had some slowdown issues, and played a bit wrong too.

now , as far as Saturn development , Acclaim were some of the worst, but its still pretty unbelievable they messed up MK2 on the Saturn, considering the SNES and even Mega Drive versions were decent.

voted to N64:]

what do you mean statistical data? youre going to a website where not every person who bought the game gave a score (unless Ocarina of Time only sold 26 thousand copies, because thats the number of people who gave it a score).

and thats a pretty arrogant statement saying "I think everybody agrees with me", actually, its very arrogant to think that.

and I make assumptions just like you did, youre assuming that everybody agrees with you, you assume things about a console you know very little about. you also assume that because the critics and user score is good, then a game must be good.

if youre allowed to make silly assumptions , then I can too.

and yes, I did say I prefer the PS1 to the Saturn and N64 , you just didn't bother reading it/ didn't see it.

the other thing you ignored was the Saturn Bomberman vs Bomberman64 comment I made.

you said Bomberman 64 is one of the best multiplayer games ever made, and yet the critic and user reviews for Saturn Bomberman are higher.

so this confuses me, you say Bomberman 64 is one of the best, but in your opinion , the critics and user score are always right???? thats contradictory.

but of course you would ignore that , since it goes against your argument, so you would brush it away

and you see, you never stated the main reason you like the N64 is because of the loading, you said it was a reason , but mentioned the games.

besides I think youre exaggerating, as most games by that time had fairly moderate load times.

what you just wrote there looks like a play on words, so let me explain

if a person likes/dislikes a game , its opinion , if he disagrees with another review , he can explain why, not a 10000 word report, but just give some reasons, decent ones.

what I did a few posts before was just that, I gave my reasons to show why I think the reviewer was wrong, and posted comparison pics to support my argument, he doesnt have to agree with me, but I was making a point that reviewers too get things wrong.

and that importing statement shows how limited your knowledge of the Saturn is (or maybe just import gaming).

the majority of import Saturn games have english menus and character names, especially in the fighitng/arcade/shmup/puzzle, etc and other genres which have very little text. Usually the only thing in Japanese is the winning text or character voices, but in these kinds of games, who cares.

heck some games have the option to set the game's language to english completly, two I own being Vampire Savior and Samurai Spirits 4.

now are you really going to tell me youre not counting import games because the winning screens are in Japanese?? come on , if a game can be navigated in English , and doesn't have much text, its perfectly playable by non Japanese speaking gamers.

regarding that list of fighting games there are a few issues.

1) Wrestling games are not fighitng games, different genre, the play mechanics are totally different.

2) I had a look at the critic and user score of each game in that list that isnt a wrestling game, and I came up with some interesting results.

so according to this list, and the critic/user score you seem to value, quite a few of these games are pretty bad, or mediocre at best.

and you call these fine games???? come on , thats a contradiction in a very big way :P

I mean if youre going to tell me review scores matter at least don't bring up games that the "review scores" said were bad, and pass them off as good.

wait, youre saying Im making up facts, and yet the amount of contradictions youve made, by claiming reviews are fact and then ruining your own argument.

and that comes from someone who posted emulator screenshots and tried to pass them off as proof of the N64, 3D capability??? come on , youre being very hypocritical.

at least the pics I used were taken directly from the hardware, and show exactly the point I was making

what Im bothered by is that fact that you try and impose your opinion on other people, the only times I usually debate with people is things like tech specs overall game libraries, not indivdual games and wheter they like that game or not, at least not often.

on the other hand youve shown on quite a few occasions, that you get upset when someone say they dislike a game you like, and seemingly demand an explanation.

none of them have said you are wrong, and I doubt they could care less what games you like and dislike, they should only give evidence when they tell you "Banjo, you are wrong, and here is why"

as long as they played the game (and preferably owned it too) they are entitled to their own opinion , and yet you in a hypocritical manner accuse me of being intolerent of opinion ?

that entire post of yours in fact is full of contradictions.

Darkman2007

I do not know if you have ever taken statistics but sampling is rather accurate... I guess you could argue for volunteer bias in the sampling but imo unless you can come up with better statistics mine are more valid then no statistical data at all.

So you just admitted you made up assumptions about what I think and every twisted what I said to fit your arguement?

I ignored the Bomberman 64 comment because correct me if I am wrong but it was discussed in the other topic (Ps1 vs N64, you know the one where you brought up the off topic Saturn) and I do not bring other arguements from other threads into this thread.

You did not give reasons for the things you disliked... You just stated what you disliked which is a less valid opinion then someone explaining what why they did not like those things or how it was boring to you... Noone is asking for a 10000 word essay (nice hyperbole btw >_>) and its rather ironic you complain about explaining your thoughts when you write long posts and clearly explain your opinions on the Saturn well.

Again I never said your opinion on the Saturn was invalid, I said in response to you calling me out for what I said in the Vagrant Story thread why I thought your opinion was invalid their. I mean I made a explanation for my unpopular opinions in the Shenmue III and Crash Bandicoot threads.

Cool but most of the games you listed were in english anyways and you know most of the saturn titles people shower with joy that are import only are mainly in japanese.

And even for the ones in english you have to buy a special disk to play them.

Okay I admit that wrestling games are not considered fighting games by gamespot(unlike they are on Gamefaqs) so take them off the list I guess.

Next you told me to simply list N64 fighting games (which I did unlike when I asked you to list the top games in Saturn by genre because I am not afraid)

I know that the Saturn has a better library of 2D fighters and I do not care quite frankly... Imo it says more about your arguement that you need to try to trap someone into sounding illogical and then claim I viewed the N64 fighters as "fine games" and that it was a contradiction.

Also I did not take screenshots from an emulator they were from gamefaqs and may have been from an emulator but I took them from gamefaqs so your claim is invalid. Yes they may have been emulated screenshots but I took them from gamefaqs.

You complain that I analyze what you say and argue against it rather than reading in between the lines and looking at what you might have said but guess what that is not a "play on words" it is arguing against what you said.

You on the other hands spend your time fabricating arguements and commiting ad hominen and tell me I do not debate my opinion correctly?

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]

what do you mean statistical data? youre going to a website where not every person who bought the game gave a score (unless Ocarina of Time only sold 26 thousand copies, because thats the number of people who gave it a score).

and thats a pretty arrogant statement saying "I think everybody agrees with me", actually, its very arrogant to think that.

and I make assumptions just like you did, youre assuming that everybody agrees with you, you assume things about a console you know very little about. you also assume that because the critics and user score is good, then a game must be good.

if youre allowed to make silly assumptions , then I can too.

and yes, I did say I prefer the PS1 to the Saturn and N64 , you just didn't bother reading it/ didn't see it.

the other thing you ignored was the Saturn Bomberman vs Bomberman64 comment I made.

you said Bomberman 64 is one of the best multiplayer games ever made, and yet the critic and user reviews for Saturn Bomberman are higher.

so this confuses me, you say Bomberman 64 is one of the best, but in your opinion , the critics and user score are always right???? thats contradictory.

but of course you would ignore that , since it goes against your argument, so you would brush it away

and you see, you never stated the main reason you like the N64 is because of the loading, you said it was a reason , but mentioned the games.

besides I think youre exaggerating, as most games by that time had fairly moderate load times.

what you just wrote there looks like a play on words, so let me explain

if a person likes/dislikes a game , its opinion , if he disagrees with another review , he can explain why, not a 10000 word report, but just give some reasons, decent ones.

what I did a few posts before was just that, I gave my reasons to show why I think the reviewer was wrong, and posted comparison pics to support my argument, he doesnt have to agree with me, but I was making a point that reviewers too get things wrong.

and that importing statement shows how limited your knowledge of the Saturn is (or maybe just import gaming).

the majority of import Saturn games have english menus and character names, especially in the fighitng/arcade/shmup/puzzle, etc and other genres which have very little text. Usually the only thing in Japanese is the winning text or character voices, but in these kinds of games, who cares.

heck some games have the option to set the game's language to english completly, two I own being Vampire Savior and Samurai Spirits 4.

now are you really going to tell me youre not counting import games because the winning screens are in Japanese?? come on , if a game can be navigated in English , and doesn't have much text, its perfectly playable by non Japanese speaking gamers.

regarding that list of fighting games there are a few issues.

1) Wrestling games are not fighitng games, different genre, the play mechanics are totally different.

2) I had a look at the critic and user score of each game in that list that isnt a wrestling game, and I came up with some interesting results.

so according to this list, and the critic/user score you seem to value, quite a few of these games are pretty bad, or mediocre at best.

and you call these fine games???? come on , thats a contradiction in a very big way :P

I mean if youre going to tell me review scores matter at least don't bring up games that the "review scores" said were bad, and pass them off as good.

wait, youre saying Im making up facts, and yet the amount of contradictions youve made, by claiming reviews are fact and then ruining your own argument.

and that comes from someone who posted emulator screenshots and tried to pass them off as proof of the N64, 3D capability??? come on , youre being very hypocritical.

at least the pics I used were taken directly from the hardware, and show exactly the point I was making

what Im bothered by is that fact that you try and impose your opinion on other people, the only times I usually debate with people is things like tech specs overall game libraries, not indivdual games and wheter they like that game or not, at least not often.

on the other hand youve shown on quite a few occasions, that you get upset when someone say they dislike a game you like, and seemingly demand an explanation.

none of them have said you are wrong, and I doubt they could care less what games you like and dislike, they should only give evidence when they tell you "Banjo, you are wrong, and here is why"

as long as they played the game (and preferably owned it too) they are entitled to their own opinion , and yet you in a hypocritical manner accuse me of being intolerent of opinion ?

that entire post of yours in fact is full of contradictions.

Banjo_Kongfooie

I do not know if you have ever taken statistics but sampling is rather accurate... I guess you could argue for volunteer bias in the sampling but imo unless you can come up with better statistics mine are more valid then no statistical data at all.

So you just admitted you made up assumptions about what I think and every twisted what I said to fit your arguement?

I ignored the Bomberman 64 comment because correct me if I am wrong but it was discussed in the other topic (Ps1 vs N64, you know the one where you brought up the off topic Saturn) and I do not bring other arguements from other threads into this thread.

You did not give reasons for the things you disliked... You just stated what you disliked which is a less valid opinion then someone explaining what why they did not like those things or how it was boring to you... Noone is asking for a 10000 word essay (nice hyperbole btw >_>) and its rather ironic you complain about explaining your thoughts when you write long posts and clearly explain your opinions on the Saturn well.

Again I never said your opinion on the Saturn was invalid, I said in response to you calling me out for what I said in the Vagrant Story thread why I thought your opinion was invalid their. I mean I made a explanation for my unpopular opinions in the Shenmue III and Crash Bandicoot threads.

Cool but most of the games you listed were in english anyways and you know most of the saturn titles people shower with joy that are import only are mainly in japanese.

And even for the ones in english you have to buy a special disk to play them.

Okay I admit that wrestling games are not considered fighting games by gamespot(unlike they are on Gamefaqs) so take them off the list I guess.

Next you told me to simply list N64 fighting games (which I did unlike when I asked you to list the top games in Saturn by genre because I am not afraid)

I know that the Saturn has a better library of 2D fighters and I do not care quite frankly... Imo it says more about your arguement that you need to try to trap someone into sounding illogical and then claim I viewed the N64 fighters as "fine games" and that it was a contradiction.

Also I did not take screenshots from an emulator they were from gamefaqs and may have been from an emulator but I took them from gamefaqs so your claim is invalid. Yes they may have been emulated screenshots but I took them from gamefaqs.

You complain that I analyze what you say and argue against it rather than reading in between the lines and looking at what you might have said but guess what that is not a "play on words" it is arguing against what you said.

You on the other hands spend your time fabricating arguements and commiting ad hominen and tell me I do not debate my opinion correctly?

[QUOTE="Banjo_Kongfooie"]

I ignored the Bomberman 64 comment because correct me if I am wrong but it was discussed in the other topic (Ps1 vs N64, you know the one where you brought up the off topic Saturn) and I do not bring other arguements from other threads into this thread.

You did not give reasons for the things you disliked... You just stated what you disliked which is a less valid opinion then someone explaining what why they did not like those things or how it was boring to you... Noone is asking for a 10000 word essay (nice hyperbole btw >_>) and its rather ironic you complain about explaining your thoughts when you write long posts and clearly explain your opinions on the Saturn well.

Next you told me to simply list N64 fighting games (which I did unlike when I asked you to list the top games in Saturn by genre because I am not afraid)

I know that the Saturn has a better library of 2D fighters and I do not care quite frankly... Imo it says more about your arguement that you need to try to trap someone into sounding illogical and then claim I viewed the N64 fighters as "fine games" and that it was a contradiction.

Also I did not take screenshots from an emulator they were from gamefaqs and may have been from an emulator but I took them from gamefaqs so your claim is invalid. Yes they may have been emulated screenshots but I took them from gamefaqs.

You complain that I analyze what you say and argue against it rather than reading in between the lines and looking at what you might have said but guess what that is not a "play on words" it is arguing against what you said.

You on the other hands spend your time fabricating arguements and commiting ad hominen and tell me I do not debate my opinion correctly?

Darkman2007

the reason you ignored Bomberman 64/Saturn Bomberman in that thread as well is simply because it contradicts your own arguement,

Nope I gave my reason above... another instance of you telling me what I think and say.

I gave my reasons for vagrant story, you just didn't bother to read them , either becauase you did not see them , or you ignored them because it doesnt help you in the debate.

Um I never said you did not give reasons I said you did not explain them at all.

you say you don't care about 2D fighitng games, and thats cool, but you attempt to speak for everyone, just like you do regarding imports, just because king Banjo doesnt like imports or 2D fighting games , doesnt mean anybody else doesn't.

No I said I do not care about the Saturn having a better library of 2D fighters (again putting words in my mouth) because I never claimed it did not and recognised it had better arcade ports and fighters. I care about the overall library and diversity of said library which I was trying to get a list from you of to list the best Saturn games.

Again you still have no comment at your manufactured arguement of how I said that list of N64 fighters were "fine games" when you simply asked me to list fighters.

It may well be the reason you prefer the N64, but its pretty lame not to count them.

Well that is your opinion and I disagree that it is "lame".

it doesnt matter where you got the screenshots, the point is, they are emulator screenshots, and I wonder if you knew that when you poisted them.

It kind of does matter because I got them from Gamefaqs and assumed they were not from an emulator, I explained this in my post.

emulator screenshots can make quite the difference in the visuals, and you know as well as I do they distort what a game really looks like.

I never said they did not

(no, I don't care if your friend owns it, that means nothing)

Wrong my friend owning a console and me playing various games on it gives me some experience with the console (enough for me to deem it inferior imo to the N64).

trust me it doesn't.

my friend owns a gamecube , in fact, he lent it to me for a while , and I played a number of games on it.

does that mean I am qualified to speak about the Gamecube's game library??? nope, at least not as far as I see it.

If I were to argue about the Gamecube's library with someone who owns a gamecube and a decent amount of games for it, I would get my backside handed to me.

not all that different then how I have to correct you on your Saturn information , and its on more then one occasion youve made mistakes, because you are not familiar with the system's library

and sure, I can see why you may prefer the N64, the Saturn has the better fighting game library and better RPG library, the N64 has the better 3D platformer library, and overall better FPS library.

I said that in the begining, as well as in the other thread, but you started going on a tangent on why the N64 is the better system because of "scores", when Ive said every system each had its good and bad, I just prefer the Saturn because Im more of a fan of fighting games and RPGs then I am of 3D platformers and FPS games.

simple as that, but it seemed you can't accept that, and instead try to argue with me on why the N64 is better vs a system you know little about.

frankly arguing with me over the Saturn , when you yourself have little knowledge of it , is going to lead to a trainwreck of an argument on your part.

and you still didn't give me the reason on Bomberman 64, you just said why you won't speak about it :P

again , if review scores and user scores are so important, and you claim Bomberman 64 is so good (which Im not doubting it may well be), how is it that Bomberman Saturn got a higher score??

you won't answer that rather simple question

and it doesnt matter to me wheter you assumed the screenshots were from an emulator or not, the fact is, they are

No surprise that my favorite system, Saturn, is lagging behind in this poll. I think that console was so overlooked. It kinda reminded me of the PS3, although the PS3 is selling well, but reminded me of it due to the design. It had two processors, which were a nightmare to develop for, causing a lot of developers to come up short when programming for it. Most rather develop for the PS1, which had a larger install base, and a lot easier to program for. A lot like the 360 of this gen. That's why I think they are similar, with that regards. I am actually having a game night with my kids tonight, which we broke out the Saturn, and Jaguar to do some old school gaming, along with some of this gens stuff as well. Played Xmen Children of the Atom on the Saturn. Played Aliens vs Predator on the Jaguar, which is probably one of the very few good titles on that system. So, Saturn gets my vote, and I think it is mainly because I was a Sega fanboy growing up, leaving all my Sega products very dear to my heart!LOL

[QUOTE="nameless12345"]

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]

it was mostly the texture memory , the carts were an issue but could have been overcome.

Darkman2007

I don't see how FMV backgrounds from the original KI arcade could not be done on the N64 would it have a bigger storage space. Those FMVs were stored on a hard drive in the arcade version so even if they would compress them it would be still hard (if not impossible) to pull them off on the N64 cartridge.

Also I'm not sure if PS1 really had more texture memory than N64 had. I think many people don't really know the way N64 works. N64 had two graphics modes, the "Fast 3D" and "Turbo 3D" mode. In the Fast 3D mode, it had filtered textures (the main graphical advantage of the N64 over PS1 and Saturn), but a limitation of only 100k polygons per second. But it Turbo 3D mode, it could do up to 600k polygons per second without texture filtering which is more than twice as much than PS1 and Saturn could do. No commercial games use the latter mode but if they did they could have twice the polygon detail PS1 and Saturn had in their own quality. Some devs like Rare, Factor 5 and Boss Games used their own, custom microcodes and it has to be said that their N64 games look a league above the other games.

After all, FMVs could simply be streamed from the CD if the console had a CD drive.

of course Rare's games looked better then the vast majority of 3rd party stuff.

just like Sega's Saturn games were usually better looking then the vast majority of 3rd party games on the system (with the exception of a few like Tecmo)

In early 1996, Acclaim released Mortal Kombat 2 on the Saturn , it had some slowdown issues, and played a bit wrong too.

now , as far as Saturn development , Acclaim were some of the worst, but its still pretty unbelievable they messed up MK2 on the Saturn, considering the SNES and even Mega Drive versions were decent.

Actually the Saturn MKII had arcade quality graphics, if quite glitchy. Still better than the PS1 version which had horrible load times (during fights even).

Each of the mentioned systems had it's stenghts and weaknesses but I would say that N64 was mostly developed with 3D gaming and Mario 64 in mind whereas PS1 and Saturn were developed to bring the arcade experience home (PS1 focusing more on 3D graphics and Saturn more on 2D graphics).

[QUOTE="Banjo_Kongfooie"]

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] wait , you have Sonic as your avatar, but youre laughing at the Saturn....... I don't get it might as well put Mario as my picture and then laugh at Nintendo.....Darkman2007

He is entitled to his opinion and he could like the Sonic games that are on Nintendo consoles...

Just because someone likes Sonic does not make them a Sega console fan and if he is a Sega console fan that does not mean he has to like them all. He could just like the Dreamcast and Genesis.

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]

[QUOTE="nameless12345"]

I don't see how FMV backgrounds from the original KI arcade could not be done on the N64 would it have a bigger storage space. Those FMVs were stored on a hard drive in the arcade version so even if they would compress them it would be still hard (if not impossible) to pull them off on the N64 cartridge.

Also I'm not sure if PS1 really had more texture memory than N64 had. I think many people don't really know the way N64 works. N64 had two graphics modes, the "Fast 3D" and "Turbo 3D" mode. In the Fast 3D mode, it had filtered textures (the main graphical advantage of the N64 over PS1 and Saturn), but a limitation of only 100k polygons per second. But it Turbo 3D mode, it could do up to 600k polygons per second without texture filtering which is more than twice as much than PS1 and Saturn could do. No commercial games use the latter mode but if they did they could have twice the polygon detail PS1 and Saturn had in their own quality. Some devs like Rare, Factor 5 and Boss Games used their own, custom microcodes and it has to be said that their N64 games look a league above the other games.

After all, FMVs could simply be streamed from the CD if the console had a CD drive.

nameless12345

of course Rare's games looked better then the vast majority of 3rd party stuff.

just like Sega's Saturn games were usually better looking then the vast majority of 3rd party games on the system (with the exception of a few like Tecmo)

In early 1996, Acclaim released Mortal Kombat 2 on the Saturn , it had some slowdown issues, and played a bit wrong too.

now , as far as Saturn development , Acclaim were some of the worst, but its still pretty unbelievable they messed up MK2 on the Saturn, considering the SNES and even Mega Drive versions were decent.

Actually the Saturn MKII had arcade quality graphics, if quite glitchy. Still better than the PS1 version which had horrible load times (during fights even).

Each of the mentioned systems had it's stenghts and weaknesses but I would say that N64 was mostly developed with 3D gaming and Mario 64 in mind whereas PS1 and Saturn were developed to bring the arcade experience home (PS1 focusing more on 3D graphics and Saturn more on 2D graphics).

that is mostly because the PS1 version is a port of the Saturn version , and we all know how ports from the Saturn to another system usually turn out.

with Mortal Kombat Trilogy, the Saturn version was a straight port of the PS1 version , and is generally seen to be a bit worse due to longer loading and slightly more pixelated graphics.

its ironic that the PS1 became the RPG hub that generation. if you think about it, the Saturn was potentially the better system for RPGs, it had a better sound chip (the FF soundtracks would have been better had they used the Saturn sound chip), the VDP2 could have been used to create multi layered backgrounds (unlike the still images games like FF7 had), and its pretty obvious the system's 2D capabilities would have produced better quality then the PS1.

that as well as the fact that Panzer Saga shows the Saturn can handle a full 3D RPG very well. its just a shame developers didn't use these as much.

and just to show the Saturn's sound chip, I made a comparison video of Luanr 2 Eternal Blue on both systems, both games used each system's respective sound system , lending to a somewhat better soundtrack on the Saturn

Link

I think you would be interested in hearing this.

lol at Saturn.

But seriously, O prefer the N64 because it has better exclusive games, meaning games that were only released on N64. SM64, DK64, Pokemon Stadium, SSB, the list goes on. I got together with a group of buddies yesterday and we played 4-player Pokemon stadium minigame tournaments. I won. I rubbed it in the face of my friend who thinks he's good at everything.

[QUOTE="amari24"][QUOTE="FaithfulBro"]

lol at Saturn.

But seriously, O prefer the N64 because it has better exclusive games, meaning games that were only released on N64. SM64, DK64, Pokemon Stadium, SSB, the list goes on. I got together with a group of buddies yesterday and we played 4-player Pokemon stadium minigame tournaments. I won. I rubbed it in the face of my friend who thinks he's good at everything.

godzillavskong

Wrong I infact laughed at the Saturn when it was competing against the N64... Not everything about it though mainly its being so hard to develop games for and hearing the price strategy. Basically Sega stated a price of 399 and sony announced 299 one upping them.

One thing that makes me laugh about the Saturn in modern days (well not the saturn but one of its games) is Panzer Dragoon Saga that while a good game is not worth anywhere near $250.00 and it would be hard to even purchase the game for $60.00 imo because games like FFIX and Oot can be for under $15.00.

I do recognise it has some amazing games though like dragon force and Panzer Dragoon and Zweii as well as arcade perfect ports.

[QUOTE="godzillavskong"][QUOTE="amari24"] Better exclusive games? That's debateable, because I could list tons of Saturn games that aren't even on the N64.Banjo_Kongfooie

Wrong I infact laughed at the Saturn when it was competing against the N64... Not everything about it though mainly its being so hard to develop games for and hearing the price strategy. Basically Sega stated a price of 399 and sony announced 299 one upping them.

One thing that makes me laugh about the Saturn in modern days (well not the saturn but one of its games) is Panzer Dragoon Saga that while a good game is not worth anywhere near $250.00 and it would be hard to even purchase the game for $60.00 imo because games like FFIX and Oot can be for under $15.00.

I do recognise it has some amazing games though like dragon force and Panzer Dragoon and Zweii as well as arcade perfect ports.

and just to prove something , here you go, an interview with the president of Factor 5, which did alot of sterling work on the N64

" From our perspective, the N64 is almost as complicated as the [Sega] Saturn. You can do amazing things, as those last Saturn games that are still coming also prove -- but you have to program in a way that you use the resources to a tee. And many people over here don't seem to be able to get to terms with that and the outcome is often disappointing"

http://uk.ign64.ign.com/articles/061/061845p1.html

the N64 was a powerful system , but it wasn't exactly a developer's dream , beyond the cartridge issue (which is a very valid point but has been done to death) , there is also limited texture RAM , the lack of a sound chip (all sound has to be done with the CPU or GPU , lowering performance or sound quality) , slow RAM, relatively iffy development tools when it comes to 3rd parties.

now in the case of the Saturn , there were 4 main problems developers had big issues with.

1) The dual SH2s , the fact they share the same bus doesn't help either as it creates somewhat of a bottleneck unless a developer takes alot of care.

2) Quad based 3D, not the industry standard, while I can see why Sega might have went for it (given that the model 1 and 2 arcade boards were quad based), as far as 3rd parties go , it was a pain.

3) lack of dedicated support for 3D transparency and shadows.

4) poor development tools early on

there is also a small issue of a lack of video decoder, but that was a minor issue.

on the flip side, the Saturn supports a higher resolution then either the PS1 or N64, and has a 2D capability that dances circles around the PS and N64.

it also has the best sound capability out of the 3 consoles, and doesnt suffer from the stupid seaming that plagues many PS1 games.

put it simply, the PS1 would never have been able to run a game like Last Bronx as it is, as the PS1 would have slowed to a crawl trying to replicate the 2D floors and multi backgrounds the Saturn could do with almost no effort with the VDP2.

the N64 was a powerful system , but it wasn't exactly a developer's dream , beyond the cartridge issue (which is a very valid point but has been done to death) , there is also limited texture RAM , the lack of a sound chip (all sound has to be done with the CPU or GPU , lowering performance or sound quality) , slow RAM, relatively iffy development tools when it comes to 3rd parties.

Darkman2007

Actually the RAM was fast, just the access latencies were too high. But yeah, N64 was a bad design despite being very advanced for it's time.

The Saturn was also a bad design, if in some ways better than the competition.

Ironically history repeats itself with the PS3.

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]

the N64 was a powerful system , but it wasn't exactly a developer's dream , beyond the cartridge issue (which is a very valid point but has been done to death) , there is also limited texture RAM , the lack of a sound chip (all sound has to be done with the CPU or GPU , lowering performance or sound quality) , slow RAM, relatively iffy development tools when it comes to 3rd parties.

nameless12345

Actually the RAM was fast, just the access latencies were too high. But yeah, N64 was a bad design despite being very advanced for it's time.

The Saturn was also a bad design, if in some ways better than the competition.

Ironically history repeats itself with the PS3.