One year later: Twilight Princess

After reading these posts and hearing how good OOT was, I have to say, OOT could easily be one of the most overrated games ever. Why?

1. I found that if you knew what you were doing, you could beat the main story in under 10 hours. I want at least a 15-hour game, darn it!
2. There were too few side quests to me. Wind Waker fixed this at least.
3. The plot, even though this was the first ever Zelda game for me, felt slightly recycled.
4. Hyrule was too small for me.
5. An annoying Go to Dunegon after doing some things for someone>Explore>Find Item>Use Item to Solve Puzzles>Use Item in Boss Fight formula that plagues every dungeon aside from the last one.

After reading these posts and hearing how good OOT was, I have to say, OOT could easily be one of the most overrated games ever. Why?

1. I found that if you knew what you were doing, you could beat the main story in under 10 hours. I want at least a 15-hour game, darn it!
2. There were too few side quests to me. Wind Waker fixed this at least.
3. The plot, even though this was the first ever Zelda game for me, felt slightly recycled.
4. Hyrule was too small for me.
5. An annoying Go to Dunegon after doing some things for someone>Explore>Find Item>Use Item to Solve Puzzles>Use Item in Boss Fight formula that plagues every dungeon aside from the last one.

Fireball2500

So people can't have valid criticisms over Twilight Princess because they can be loosely applied to a 10 year old "perfect" game? You're just kidding here but standards change, bars have been raised, etc.

Some things just bother people more than others, that's just the way it is for any title. What may seem like nitpicking to you may really bog down the experience for someone else. No one's saying Twilight Princess is a bad game by any means, at least I'm not. It's awesome.

After reading these posts and hearing how good OOT was, I have to say, OOT could easily be one of the most overrated games ever. Why?

1. I found that if you knew what you were doing, you could beat the main story in under 10 hours. I want at least a 15-hour game, darn it!
2. There were too few side quests to me. Wind Waker fixed this at least.
3. The plot, even though this was the first ever Zelda game for me, felt slightly recycled.
4. Hyrule was too small for me.
5. An annoying Go to Dunegon after doing some things for someone>Explore>Find Item>Use Item to Solve Puzzles>Use Item in Boss Fight formula that plagues every dungeon aside from the last one.

Fireball2500

Not to sound mean but the first one...kind of like is with all games. If people know what they are doing. It always takes far less time. ZOE2 for instance I can beat in under 2 and a half hours. Or God of War around 4 or 5 it was. Wasn't MGS like under 5 also?

Here is the last line of the video review:

"You'll love the game's great design and puzzles, but you'll probably also have the feeling that it could have been so much more with some presentational additions."

It's obvious to me that the game was brought down a bit because of the less technically impressive graphics, the fact that the characters didn't have any voiced dialogue, and that the Wii remotes speaker didn't sound so great. Personally, I think the game would have done better if it was just released on the Gamecube, but by the time this game was ready to be released, nobody was really playing the Gamecube, and the Wii was near release.

Had the game been released on the Gamecube only, the graphics would have been seen as amazing (which they were for being built on Gamecube hardware). I found that the Wii controls really didn't add, or take away much from the game, but the Wii remote's speaker didn't work very well. Lastly, I actually can appreciate the fact that the characters didn't speak, because I was able to form in my own mind what they would sound like. I can see how some people wouldn't like that though.

Really, I think this game deserves a score in the high 9 range, but I'm not bitter or anything about the score. I thought it was really stupid and was pretty ticked off when I first saw it, but after reading and watching the review several times, I think that it is justified as far as rating the game as a whole, with current presentational standards in mind.

^^^ While you are free to have your own opinion and I'm not downing yours in anyway, but I honestly couldn't care less for presentation at all. I thought the actual game of Twilight Princess was phenomenal. Also note that the game was also released on the Gamecube and got a review here which was 8.9.

I think one of the problems with the Zelda series is that whatever game you play first is the game you will end up liking most in the end. I started with A Link to the Past and I've tried most of the games (except MM and WW) since then and haven't liked any of them. Most of the people who think OoT is the best Zelda, started with OoT. There is obviously exceptions but I think my theory does seem feasible to some extent.foxhound_fox

That is true. I for one am the exception, Twilight Princess was my third Zelda game and is my favorite. :)

But it's time to put the OoT formula to bed, or at least switch things up a bit. The Zelda series is in need of a Mario Galaxy-like reinvention IMO. Wind Waker+Twilight Princess are a great complimentary package for the Gamecube-era, but one is not that much better than the other to me. In fact I probably put more time and got more enjoyment out of Wind Waker because there was so much more to do.

viberooni

The thing with Mario Galaxy that seems to make itamazing (according to reviews) is the sense of surprise at experiencing something completely unique. That is essentiallywhat I think the Zelda series is losing.

[QUOTE="Fireball2500"]

After reading these posts and hearing how good OOT was, I have to say, OOT could easily be one of the most overrated games ever. Why?

1. I found that if you knew what you were doing, you could beat the main story in under 10 hours. I want at least a 15-hour game, darn it!
2. There were too few side quests to me. Wind Waker fixed this at least.
3. The plot, even though this was the first ever Zelda game for me, felt slightly recycled.
4. Hyrule was too small for me.
5. An annoying Go to Dunegon after doing some things for someone>Explore>Find Item>Use Item to Solve Puzzles>Use Item in Boss Fight formula that plagues every dungeon aside from the last one.

viberooni

So people can't have valid criticisms over Twilight Princess because they can be loosely applied to a 10 year old "perfect" game? You're just kidding here but standards change, bars have been raised, etc.

Some things just bother people more than others, that's just the way it is for any title. What may seem like nitpicking to you may really bog down the experience for someone else. No one's saying Twilight Princess is a bad game by any means, at least I'm not. It's awesome.

I don't care what anyone or what reviews say, Twilight Princess is still a10 in my book.

Twilight Princess' biggest curse wasOcarina of Time. It must be tough for Nintendo to keep trying and topping their own best games. Mario Sunshine suffered from this, and miraculously, Nintendo topped Mario 64 with Galaxy.

But how do you top Ocarina? I like Twilight better, but Ocarina has that revolutionary influence it made so that's why Twilight didn't give that same impact. That's why everyone was so judgemental on it.So it will be really difficult for Nintendo to surpass Ocarina of Time in this sense.

[QUOTE="Fireball2500"]

After reading these posts and hearing how good OOT was, I have to say, OOT could easily be one of the most overrated games ever. Why?

1. I found that if you knew what you were doing, you could beat the main story in under 10 hours. I want at least a 15-hour game, darn it!
2. There were too few side quests to me. Wind Waker fixed this at least.
3. The plot, even though this was the first ever Zelda game for me, felt slightly recycled.
4. Hyrule was too small for me.
5. An annoying Go to Dunegon after doing some things for someone>Explore>Find Item>Use Item to Solve Puzzles>Use Item in Boss Fight formula that plagues every dungeon aside from the last one.

Shinoto

Not to sound mean but the first one...kind of like is with all games. If people know what they are doing. It always takes far less time. ZOE2 for instance I can beat in under 2 and a half hours. Or God of War around 4 or 5 it was. Wasn't MGS like under 5 also?

To be honest, I would give OOT a high 8 to low 9. It's just that I disagree with peoples' opinion that OOT is perfect.Fireball2500

Care Copter approaching

[QUOTE="viberooni"][QUOTE="Fireball2500"]

After reading these posts and hearing how good OOT was, I have to say, OOT could easily be one of the most overrated games ever. Why?

1. I found that if you knew what you were doing, you could beat the main story in under 10 hours. I want at least a 15-hour game, darn it!
2. There were too few side quests to me. Wind Waker fixed this at least.
3. The plot, even though this was the first ever Zelda game for me, felt slightly recycled.
4. Hyrule was too small for me.
5. An annoying Go to Dunegon after doing some things for someone>Explore>Find Item>Use Item to Solve Puzzles>Use Item in Boss Fight formula that plagues every dungeon aside from the last one.

Fireball2500

So people can't have valid criticisms over Twilight Princess because they can be loosely applied to a 10 year old "perfect" game? You're just kidding here but standards change, bars have been raised, etc.

Some things just bother people more than others, that's just the way it is for any title. What may seem like nitpicking to you may really bog down the experience for someone else. No one's saying Twilight Princess is a bad game by any means, at least I'm not. It's awesome.

Sorry if I read your post as being sarcastic. I thought you were commenting on the broad nature of some of the complaints leveled towards Twilight Princess in the thread, saying they could be applied just as easily to it's beloved predecessor.

I don't think OoT is overrated. At the time it came out it was revolutionary, epic and very fun - it doesn't hold up brilliantly, but I don't think many 3D games from that era do anyway. For that reason it's nice to have Twilight Princess as 3D Zelda refined, it will probably stand the test of time better than Ocarina could ever hope to.

I think one of the problems with the Zelda series is that whatever game you play first is the game you will end up liking most in the end. I started with A Link to the Past and I've tried most of the games (except MM and WW) since then and haven't liked any of them. Most of the people who think OoT is the best Zelda, started with OoT. There is obviously exceptions but I think my theory does seem feasible to some extent.foxhound_fox

I haven't really noticed that, to be honest. My first was the original, yet I've liked all of them and absolutely loved the majority. I think they tend to move in the right direction with each new iteration, with just the right amount of updating.

OoT was my fifth Zelda game.And after experiencing it for the first time, itwas easyto call it one of the greatest games of all time.

I've quite simply had enough of pushing blocks onto buttons that open doors, or collecting the boomerang in a dungeon and using that on the boss, or rescuing Zelda from Ganon. Having played games like SotC and Okami previous to TP didn't help either, as it just made the uninspired visuals and midi soundtrack stand out even moreso.

Teufelhuhn

I consider the Zelda series to be insanely contrived for the reasons you listed above...as well as the fact that many doors will lock until all enemies are defeated, no matter how little sense it makes. That one gets to me the most.

It's interesting that you mentioned SotC but not Ico, which is in your sig. That game (which I just beat a few days ago) did puzzles and adventuring right. And the storytelling...magnificent. Actually I should thank you of all people- constantly seeing your sig encouraged me to go hunt down a copy.

To be honest, I would give OOT a high 8 to low 9. It's just that I disagree with peoples' opinion that OOT is perfect.Fireball2500

You're right. OOT is not perfect, but no game is.

But I think why we say Ocarina of Time is perfect because at its time, it was the most revolutionary game ever made. Becauseit made such a huge impression on everyone, I think that's why people say (who loved the game) it's perfect. Maybe not a perfect game, but the perfect gaming experience when it was first released.

Nobody played anything like that before.

That's why Twilight was a tough game to praise or criticize, I think. I thought Twilight took everything good about Ocarina and made it better, but Ocarina did it first. So it was evolutionary, that's about it, and for Zelda fans like me, I just want more even though it's the same formula, I don't care because Zelda games are the best!

I think it deserved an 8.8, purely because the graphics and sound were bad enough justify the point deduction.

It is still an absolutely amazing game and every Wii owner should have it. Because, well I'm sure we all agree Gameplay > Graphics.

The Gamecube version, however, deserved more like 9.5ish because the grapics were great for the Gamecube, and the sound wasn't so much of an issue on a last gen system.

Now I love WW,But most of TPs complaints can be applied on it:

Difficulty:WW was clearly the easiest Zelda Ever.(Dont fool yourself with saying TP was easier,It was easy but not as easy)

Repetitive;TP had the wolf,WW had the sailboat.

Length:TP was very long,WW was very short.

In TP the beginning was boring,In WW Collecting the tri-force was boring.

The only justifiable points are the Lack of sidequests and non-linearity.

All in all TP is 2nd favorite Zelda after Ocarina,And its one of the greatest games I have ever played,And like others said if Zelda wasnt on the box it would be praised by everyone.

I feel Twilight Princess is a remarkable game, no doubt about it. However it was basically a fan service, Nintendo caved-in to pressure instead of holding firm like they did with both Majora's Mask (my favourite game) and Wind Waker. I think the devs at Nintendo are all too aware of the overwhelming familiarity of TP, they know now, after the lacklustre sales of TP in Japan, that they need to rejuvenate the Zelda formula or even die-hard fans will become tired of it. The implementation of new controls in Phantom Hourglass was the start of this reinvention, and I am sure that the next console Zelda will have some radical differences from previous entries in the series.

It must be very difficult striking the balance between progress and tradition, the heritage of Zelda can also be a massive drawback. I think Nintendo need a 'Metroid Prime moment', that is a seemingly vast overhaul of a beloved series with all the existing hallmarks intact. Twilight Princess was the peak of conventional Zelda gameplay and level design, it was so seamless it was unreal. However now Nintendo must push out into uncharted waters or be faced with the prospect of the slowly sinking Zelda ship. I still don't agree with the score, although some of the criticisms raised are perfectly legitimate.

Honestly, I don't see how Nintendo can make a better formula for Zelda. Would people like a dramatic change, let's say, Oblivion but with Link? A sandbox Zelda game?

Well, whatever Nintendo does there's one thing I always felt Zelda games needed was more towns and places to visit. Zelda games always took place in Hyrule with one town, the castle, and the Gorons or Zoras. I'd like to see sprawling cities to visit, tons of little villages, like a huge RPG but with the Zelda-styled gameplay. Not just Hyrule but more castles, princesses, kings, queens, more baddies all across the hemisphere.

Basically, make Zelda bigger, a lot bigger.

Basically, make Zelda bigger, a lot bigger.

ASK_Story

Exactly!!!,Thats what I want,Oh and to the people wanting an elder scrolls like zelda,anyone who wants an oblivion style zelda,does not want a zelda game,but wants another oblivion.

And I dont care about nintendos new philosophy,I want a Zelda with amazing 360/PS3 like NextGen graphics(or atleast SMG quality),With fully orchestrated music,and some new music,and some new gameplay elements to freshing things up,and a hell of alot more sidequests.

your not working on 1.5 Giga byte mini discs anymore nintendo.(I know some of them are not possible on the wii,But I thought they should have been said.)

One year later Twilight Princess is still one of the best games ever made, ever. and i'm itching to start playing it again from the beginning once I finish the hanf a dozen odd games I have lined up at the moment.

I'm currently playing Phantom Hourglass which even though great, can't help but make me remember how much grander and more perfect everything was in Twilight Princess.

To some up: for what it wasn't (ie great soundtrack and sound) the game deserved to have some decimals knocked off. For what it was (for what it is I should say), the game deserved more than 8.8

I agree with whatever Dvader has been saying in this thread which there's no point in me repeting.

TP did everything that Oot did except better. My only complaint is that it was a little too easy.

Honestly, I don't see how Nintendo can make a better formula for Zelda. Would people like a dramatic change, let's say, Oblivion but with Link? A sandbox Zelda game?

Well, whatever Nintendo does there's one thing I always felt Zelda games needed was more towns and places to visit. Zelda games always took place in Hyrule with one town, the castle, and the Gorons or Zoras. I'd like to see sprawling cities to visit, tons of little villages, like a huge RPG but with the Zelda-styled gameplay. Not just Hyrule but more castles, princesses, kings, queens, more baddies all across the hemisphere.

Basically, make Zelda bigger, a lot bigger.

ASK_Story

I doubt it will be an RPG, since it's Miyamoto's franchise and the genre he dislikes the most is RPG's (explains why he had to do with one). Also games like Oblivion probably don't have that widespread appeal (the type of gameplay it has is mostly adult friendly with Zelda's game mechanics being acceptant towards a wide audience), I mean Zelda is part of Nintendo's top 3 franchises as of now I have doubts. What I think Nintendo is going to do with the next Zelda (since they've stated numorous times that Twilight Princess was the last console Zelda as we know it) is probably do a Super Mario Galaxy facelife of some sorts.

[QUOTE="ASK_Story"]

Honestly, I don't see how Nintendo can make a better formula for Zelda. Would people like a dramatic change, let's say, Oblivion but with Link? A sandbox Zelda game?

Well, whatever Nintendo does there's one thing I always felt Zelda games needed was more towns and places to visit. Zelda games always took place in Hyrule with one town, the castle, and the Gorons or Zoras. I'd like to see sprawling cities to visit, tons of little villages, like a huge RPG but with the Zelda-styled gameplay. Not just Hyrule but more castles, princesses, kings, queens, more baddies all across the hemisphere.

Basically, make Zelda bigger, a lot bigger.

Gunraidan

I doubt it will be an RPG, since it's Miyamoto's franchise and the genre he dislikes the most is RPG's (explains why he had to do with one). Also games like Oblivion probably don't have that widespread appeal (the type of gameplay it has is mostly adult friendly with Zelda's game mechanics being acceptant towards a wide audience), I mean Zelda is part of Nintendo's top 3 franchises as of now I have doubts. What I think Nintendo is going to do with the next Zelda (since they've stated numorous times that Twilight Princess was the last console Zelda as we know it) is probably do a Super Mario Galaxy facelife of some sorts.

Well, I didn't meanturn it into aRPG, like with turn-based battles, hit points, etc.,I just meant to make the world big as a RPG but with Zelda gameplay.

After reading these posts and hearing how good OOT was, I have to say, OOT could easily be one of the most overrated games ever. Why?

1. I found that if you knew what you were doing, you could beat the main story in under 10 hours. I want at least a 15-hour game, darn it!
2. There were too few side quests to me. Wind Waker fixed this at least.
3. The plot, even though this was the first ever Zelda game for me, felt slightly recycled.
4. Hyrule was too small for me.
5. An annoying Go to Dunegon after doing some things for someone>Explore>Find Item>Use Item to Solve Puzzles>Use Item in Boss Fight formula that plagues every dungeon aside from the last one.

Fireball2500

Nearly every one of those points could also apply Twilight Princess. Especially number 5.

I think it deserved an 8.8, purely because the graphics and sound were bad enough justify the point deduction.

It is still an absolutely amazing game and every Wii owner should have it. Because, well I'm sure we all agree Gameplay > Graphics.

The Gamecube version, however, deserved more like 9.5ish because the grapics were great for the Gamecube, and the sound wasn't so much of an issue on a last gen system.

set101

That makes absolutely no sense. That's a difference of .7 between the two versions. The Wii's graphical capabilities are about on par with the GameCube's graphical capabilities. Even if I combine the minor graphical and sound issues you have, I don't see how one is worth 8.8 and one is worth 9.5.

Aside from the control difference, the Wii and GameCube are very similar.

I think one of the problems with the Zelda series is that whatever game you play first is the game you will end up liking most in the end. I started with A Link to the Past and I've tried most of the games (except MM and WW) since then and haven't liked any of them. Most of the people who think OoT is the best Zelda, started with OoT. There is obviously exceptions but I think my theory does seem feasible to some extent.foxhound_fox

This is mostly true for me as far as my experience with game series go. My first Zelda game was Ocarina of Time, and I found it to be an incredibly enjoyable experience to play through that sort of left me with heightened expectations of future Zelda games. I've enjoyed each Zelda game that comes along, but none were able to top my experience of playing OoT, which I suppose is the wrong way to look at things, given that each game shows more improvements and fine tuning than the last. In the end, I just couldn't get attached to Twilight Princess like I though I would with the other Zelda games. It might be me growing tired of the formula or it might have to do with other games I was playing at the time, which turned my interest elsewhere.

I don't know if my enjoyment of the game would have significantly changed if I played it with Wii controls, though I'm definitely willing to give it a shot when I get the opportunity. As for the score... it didn't seem that bad. There were a few things that I didn't agree with, but I felt it was a fair review.

TP was a solid game, even more so,but it just didnt have the same feel as OOT, that game was just =0 at every moment.

Twilight Princess is totally forgetable.

TP was a solid game, even more so,but it just didnt have the same feel as OOT, that game was just =0 at every moment.

Twilight Princess is totally forgetable.

Shmiity

Yet here we are, still talking about it!

No matter what flaws are pointed out, I think for a game like Twilight Princess at least deserves a 9 and a editor's choice rating...that's just what I think about it.

It's my opinion of course.

Majora's Mask is the second best 3d Zelda. Most unique game in the series. I stayed up all night for a long time playing that one.THE_DZA

I have enjoyed Majora's Mask's story and music the most out of all the Zelda games. The gameplay was excellent, but was a bit difficult and underwhelming. There were only 4 dungeons! The dungeons themselves were complicated and so forth, but it would have been neat to have some seen more. Nonetheless, I don't think this game got the attention it deserved. Out of all the Nintendo 64 games possible for the Wii Virtual Console, I am looking forward to this one the most. I don't have a copy of it handy :(

I remember the controversy that came about with the whole 8.8 deal, and I admit to being surprised and ticked off at that number as well. So almost a year later, I've played through the game 100% and decide to check out the review again.

And I feel that the score was completely justified in the end. Twilight Princess is a "Great" game, but it could have been so much more.

The main complaint that the game was too familiar for it's own good definately rings true. The game simply lacked a lot of the surprise and delight I felt frome experiencing the worlds in OoT. And even the Wind Waker was stronger in this feeling of freshness, thanks to the unique and charming art style.

I can't vouch for controls since I played the Gamecube version, but overall the game felt structured almost exactly like OoT. The dungeons were excellent and definately the strongest area of the entire game, but again they religiously followed the elemental theme.

I also felt the story could've been improved.Despite the massive size of the game, I actually felt that the story lacked in epicnesscompared toOoT or WW. I dunno, but that's how I feel.

So while many other reviews praised this game to heaven, Gamespot 8.8'd it, and I agree with Gamespot. It's an excellent game, but I don't think it'll be remembered as a classic.

redchina

The main problem is that Nintendo is still making Zelda games. They need to get original. MAKE NEW IPs, for godsake. Long have I been extremely bored with Zelda's game mechanics. Just like the Final Fantasy series. Make something new, like they did with Chrono Trigger/Cross...

the less-than-stellar controlsnopalversion

Which version are you playing?

One year later, and I still haven;t finished it. Dunno what rubs me the wrong way, probably the tedious pace in the beginning and the less-than-stellar controls. I refuse to give up, though.nopalversion

Same here bro. I really want to finish it, but I'm not utterly compelled like some games which is strange. I mean I finished KH2 in 2 weeks, yet I've TP for about a year and I still have probably 10-12 hours left in it. Its a excellent game no doubt, but it does have its flaws.

Regarding series changes, I think don't think forumula needs DRASTIC changes, we certainly don't want another CDI game, lol. But, I would be in favor of a adding more RPG elements to it while and building upon the classic zelda qualities. It might work, might not, who knows, I'll leave them to figure it out.