Portrayal of female characters in video games - Stereotyped, Sexualized and Objectified

@RSM-HQ

"If you say so, I'm not going to keep doing this as you seem very stuck with your own mentality on the matter, regardless what I provide. The original Lost Planet was a success despite having non of the westernisation found in the sequel. Guess which one has a Capcom look to it, and which one is trying to be Halo/ Gears/ and Call of Duty all rolled into one inflated brown mess. If you want me to magically find an article that states 'west was the problem' I don't think a company like Capcom would be that stupid to state it. Can you really say that looking at the screenshots above?"

This is an example of causation versus correlation. The whole theme of your reply seems to be that the success or failure of a game hinges on its art style. That's a factor, but it's one of many but you keep coming back to it because otherwise these games don't support your original position regarding the topic of this thread.

"I don't think visually it helped either, and sure I can't speak why no one bought a game. Many people buy games with bad design so I find that a somewhat weak case personally. Lost Planet 2 is a multiplayer game, and attempted to borrow features and artistic look to cater towards the west. If that's not anything to you, even with the producer constantly mentioning appealing to the western market. . Don't see why you asked me to find anything when you flat out reject what I waste my time providing."

So you're saying that the aesthetic of a game is more important than... gameplay? Yeah, I don't think you're going to get a lot of support on that one. Maybe that wrecked it for you. You don't know why other people didn't buy it? Maybe this is a crazy thought but have you considered maybe reading a review or two on it?

IGN, GameSpot, PCGamer, Kotaku, just to name a few. Most of these reviews actually praise the graphics (if not the art style) but they all mention the gameplay problems. This is what I was talking about earlier when I was asking you if you could back up any of what you were saying.

"That's funny, one of the other links I found show Capcom and Airtight worked on two projects together one being a failure, one being the one we got. I may be wrong, but the game seems designed for American sensibilities. How did Airtight and Capcom connect on this project- "We met with Capcom 3 years ago to talk about another project and immediately there was a meeting of the minds between the two teams. The project in question ended up not going forward and we developed Dark Void instead." Capcom didn't just publish the game, they clearly wanted this kind of game for the company, even if they only took a producer role. And this was during the timeframe they was catering to the west. How is that not "backed up""

What did you read in that article that supports your position? They met with Capcom three years earlier. And? Did they have any creative control over it? Where does it say that? That game's biggest influence was Crimson Skies, which was another American developed game that was actually very well received. How does that work with your idea that "westernization" kills games?

"Much like CastleVania, Resident Evil always took horror inspiration from western movies and novels. Yet I think you are also not looking at the sections taken from Ringu"

That's fair. Japan has always borrowed cultural elements from other countries and cultures (sometimes with comical results).

"But anyway ResiVII still had a look and style that was very traditional Capcom. Resident Evil VII visually very much has a similar look to Resi4; and before they followed the Call of Duty/ Gears trend of harsh browns, a million crates, and marines. Don't know about you but the areas and creatures reminded me of Remake and 4 in VII."

Again, you seem to be completely oblivious to any of the elements of the game except how it looks. That's not how most people evaluate games. RE7 has a lot more in common with games like Outlast. Hell, it's an FPS, which is a style of game that isn't generally even popular in Japan and very few Japanese developers even make FPS titles.

"Much like Revelations I think it's clearly Capcom went back to being themselves at that point when Inafune Keiji san had no further presence or weight in Capcom studios."

This might be your first valid point. Who's in charge absolutely makes a difference and a bunch of bad games came out under his reign.

"For the record I'm not blaming everyone in US or Europe for Capcoms misfortunes, what I am is them following trends and being afraid to be themselves because some loud mouths told them what they should do to be profitable. I like many Western games, but I also don't think Capcom a Japanese company should pretend and cater towards US and European visual standards/ and niche moral restrictions."

And here's where you lose that point, because none of these examples demonstrate how "western sensibilities" hurt these games. Having to play for over an hour between save points isn't a "western" trait, but it's one of the things that killed LP2. Where are the "moral restrictions" that hurt these games? Were they mentioned in any reviews? Or did the reviews focus on actual flaws like bad gameplay?

"Not only that, it's one of Capcoms best selling games ever. And I think a heavy part of that is what I mentioned above, it was an actual Resident Evil game, both mechanically and style. Unlike Rev games however had a decent budget and didn't exclude its market being episodic or hardware exclusive."

Uhhhhh, what? RE7 is an awesome game but it's the least Resident Evil game they have ever made, especially mechanically. Don't get me wrong, I love that game but RE has always leaned more heavily towards resource constrained action over a straight up "horror" game. I'd equate it in some ways as being closer to the Silent Hill series than any of the previous RE games. It was actually a refreshing change and I'm curious to see what they do with 8.

"You know what is Capcoms best selling game to date though? Monster Hunter: World"

And why do you think that is? I take that back. I know why -you- think it is (is it the art style? I think you're gonna say art style).

-Byshop

@Byshop: Interestingly the earlier drafts for Cindy's costume were far more conservative and she actually wear a proper jumpsuit which covers her legs and most of her cleavage. But almost at last minute SE decided to change that by giving her tight boyshort(despite its name its actually not a male garment) that shows her buttcheek, a tube top that expose most of her cleavage, bright yellow jacket which means "look boys, I'm a proud slut and I want your c*cks!". Perhaps the most offensive of them all SE decided to give her thick Southern accent in order to reinforce her dumb, slutty redneck stereotypes. All of these are just a compensation for lacking notable female characters in the game and she also the only female character player will interact the most as she is the only one who can maintain your only vehicle in the game, Regalia.

No more so than men imo. Not a lot of overweight, balding male protagonists going about.

@vagrantsnow: I think in terms of exploitation of sexuality there is no conscious decision to sexualise women over men. It's just that when women are not given any stereotypes other than sexy, it feels amiss. Men are given 70% gear of war stereotyping (to varying degrees). But female characters are more like 90% sexy and then 10% 'frigid' (still a reference to their sexuality), or dorky or something.

The problem is more about the difficulty of creating characters with unique personalities. The most unique character in Soul Calibur I would say is Voldo. A bondage dude with no eyes. He is weird but I don't think his gender is relevant in this case. Ivy is a dominatrix, which is just another trope really. The rest are pirates, gladiators and stuff.

But the games biz struggles to make compelling characters with their own identity outside of stereotypes.

Men are not given an easier time because the industry is sexist. It's just that what is sexy for a women in a man is more complicated than can be portrayed easily, as a rule. New sexy Ryu is a really good effort at making a guy attractive to women but as a more emotion-focused gender, looks only go so far.

Muscle's are everyday. There are unlimited pictures of women in undress in the world, but to make a man really sexy is not so easy.

You could argue pro wrestling is exploitative of men. They are very skimpily clad and the injuries and long term effects on the health of the athletes/actors, I think needs looking into by the government.

Not so much for straight women though, wrestling.

Having said that - you do see a good amount in the crowds so could be wrong their.

But this is nasty.

Young people should not be emulating sluts.

I am the parental figure here and I am dissapoint.

Harley Quinn (I'm bringing her back) is not a positive role model. She is gross in every way and a good example of a publisher going too far.

I think the main character for Lollipop Massacre may be based on the brilliant role model for budding crack whores everywhere, Harley Quinn.

[EDIT] Having said all that, the industry is sexist because when men do get genuinely sexualised, people are way more angry and I think this is cultural. I look at that depiction of a man going around without self respect and I feel like my gender just took a bit of a hit. I know that is silly but if you are going to focus down on one aspect of a personality you are going to make something facile and grotesque and even if it's merely gender (stereotypes) that are being exploited, my membership of that gender does ruffle my feathers. Treating men as giant dumb oafs is less offensive given how obviously removed from reality that is, people are rarely that shape or that stupid. But to assign value only to his/her sexual organs is very reductive and rubs me up the wrong way.

Everything you put out there gets consumed into the collective consciousness and there's no taking it back once it's out.

Not a lot of overweight, balding male protagonists going about.

VagrantSnow

There are a few...

Trevor Phillips (not very sexy)	Heihachi (worst dad ever)

These are men with personalities though and don't appear vacuous. A physical flaw can become an asset given a strong personality.

Here is an interesting depiction of a woman, based on a real life gunslinger, Calamity Jane. Deadwood's Calamity Jane is a tragic but truly heroic woman. Living in a deeply sexist world (the wild west) and managing to excel as a scout (when sober). Before joining Wild Bill's travelling show.

Calamity Jane - Deadwood - Robin Weigert	Martha Jane Canary 'Calamity Jane' 1852-1903

YuYu Hakusho. Just one female character (fourth from left). A fighting game not marketed using sexy women.

Yeah, Cindy was pretty over the top. That's interesting about how her design went. Do you have any articles or interviews describing that? I hadn't heard that, but even just what I know of FF15's development had so many changes and revisions over the many years they were working on that game. I know they changed out character designers repeatedly before they got a set of designs they settled on. Just the story of the development of that game has its own Wikipedia article.

But this goes back to my point. People who argue the other side of this discussion make arguments in favor of freedom of the artist and their vision. That's all well and good, but it also makes an assumption of this idea of the lone, auteur visionary being held back by money grubbing corporate big wigs who have him bound and tied in a back room while they butcher his masterpiece, but that's not how any of this works. Unless you're talking about something like Return of the Obra Dinn (amazing game, BTW) where it was literally made by one guy who did basically everything except the voice acting, games are large, collaborative development projects. There is leadership, but the end product is the result of a lot of different opinions and voices. This is especially true of a game like FF15 that was developed over a decade by hundreds of people.

The thing that cracks me up about these discussions is the idea that this is a moral argument when a developer chooses to go a different direction than what the person arguing likes. At the end of the day, developers are going to make whatever they want to make. If a regulatory body steps in and tells game companies what they can't and can't do, I'll flip sides in this discussion so fast it'll make your head spin because I'm 100% against that. But like I said before, most games are not exclusively art. They are also commercial products so they need to appeal to people in order to win their dollars. Some companies will try to do that by selling female sexuality, others will do it by trying to appeal to other audiences. If a game that has a ton of nudity in their game scales that back for a sequel (regardless of the reason) and that ends up hurting their sales, you bet they'll swing back the other direction with their next title.

You're allowed to like boobs, and if boobs help sell the game to you then by all means by the fighting game that has the most fan service. But also understand that not everyone has exactly the same tastes and even those of us who like boobs don't necessarily need to have boobs crammed into every game. Not every game made by every developer is necessarily going to have -you- as the target demographic and that's ok. Sex scenes in Mass Effect make sense in the context of the game. Catherine is a game with a ton of sexuality and soft-core nudity, but sex and relationships is literally the point of the game. Cramming a bunch of nearly naked swimsuits into a fighting game has nothing to do with the game and it just another form of pandering.

I also said before that nobody likes pandering, but it's also true that nobody thinks it's pandering when they are the ones being pandered to. It cracks me up when someone who tries to argue that even the slightest decrease of female sexualization in games is developers pandering to the wrong people in a SJW-inspired soulless attempt to milk more money out of the masses will then pop over to the Steam store to spend another $10-$30 on the latest swimsuit DLC for SFV with zero sense of irony or self-awareness.

The combined price of all of the costume DLC for SFV is just shy of $200 these days, if anyone's curious. ;)

-Byshop

I don't agree with much of what you said. Went on a bit of a tangent a few times but I welcome your opinion on the matter.

@vagrantsnow: Which bits VagrantSnow?

I can take it.

@Byshop At the end of the day, developers are going to make whatever they want to make. If a regulatory body steps in and tells game companies what they can't and can't do, I'll flip sides in this discussion so fast it'll make your head spin because I'm 100% against that.

How would you feel about playing a high school massacre game, if say, rhetorically you had recently experienced one first hand?

Should that be allowed to go on sale?

How about a pimp simulator. Where you profit from the continued suffering of vulnerable women?

Is anything fair game?

Do you want your children to grow up with polarised views on gender?

Do you want Disney to raise your children? I've gone off topic. But alot of the very worst gender stereotyping comes from Disney.

I live in Colorado, and I have extended family members who are Columbine survivors. That doesn't change my opinion.

Your hypothetical examples actually exist, along with games that are way, way worse. You don't hear about games like these that much because nobody will sell them (well, maybe Steam these days). But there's a big difference between "this game exists" and me playing it. Yes, no topic should be taboo but like I said before you also invite all the criticism and condemnation you get if you make something in incredibly poor taste. Make whatever you want, but be prepared to deal with the fallout if you make something really, really awful.

Assuming the ESRB even rates games like this, they would often get AO ratings for violence, nudity, or other content not appropriate for kids. For a long time, the AO rating was the kiss of death for game sales because it basically meant that no physical media retailer would carry it. While there are a lot of games out there like Hatred that retailers probably -shouldn't- carry, a lot of other decent games get caught up in that too. Indigo Prophecy/Fahrenheit got an initial rating of AO when they tried to bring it over to the US because it had a sex scene with some nudity. Nothing particularly explicit, but the threshold for nudity in video game ratings is far, far lower than it is in movie ratings. The scene would barely push a film into an R rating, but in video games it gets the equivalent of an NC-17. When it got re-released for PS4 they kept it uncensored and got an M rating this time which shows that the needle is slowly moving on this one. Still, I'd love for us to get to the point where game ratings catch up with film ratings, but juvenile sexualization like in the examples we've been discussing make it hard to games to be taken seriously.

But to your questions about raising children, my kids are five and seven and making sure that they are not exposed to something they shouldn't be is my job as a parent. It's not my job to try to make sure that these things don't exist.

-Byshop

@Byshop: Fair enough. Just know that Disney is the antichrist and they will toxify your young brood with ideas of gender that predate the 1950's.

As far as Hatred goes. It succeeded in it's task of garnering lots of negative attention and probably made a profit as a result.

It's easy to forget though, that the only difference between this murder simulator and all the others, is that the protagonist doesn't commit genocide for noble reasons, but rather ignoble ones, as in, he felt like it.

Hatred is probably the most honest murder simulator, the only difference being you cannot pretend you did it for the good of the land and not just because you like killing dudes.

The isometric gameplay style of twin stick run'n'gun in the style of Cannon Spike is a really fun style. You just have to get over that you are playing someone immoral. Murder is only ok if it's nazi's as we all know.

Sorry to go off topic.

I know this thread has run it's course and I don't expect to ever find out VagrantSnow's issues with my comments.

When I say that it's my job to curate what media my kids get access to while they are young, I'm including Disney films in there. Frozen, Moana, Emperor's New Groove, Princess and the Frog, Mulan, and similar films are the only ones they've seen. Ones where the morality is a bit murkier is a bit murkier like or attitudes towards women are somewhat dated we're leaving off until they are old enough to make sound evaluations of the content.

I mentioned Hatred because it's a very "mainstream" game of this type compared to the other ones I was alluding to, in that you were likely to have heard of it. Hatred got a big boost over the controversy, its removal from Steam Greenlight, and subsequent return. As a result, it managed a degree of notoriety and success that these games almost never get. When I say games like this exist, I'm talking about stuff -way- worse than Hatred. Hatred is both significantly better in terms of general video game quality and significantly lighter in terms of subject matter when compared to, say, the "games" that the KKK has put out (yes, that's a thing). But there's way worse stuff out there even still. It's just that most of this kind of stuff isn't even developed by a proper game studio because you can't make money off games like these, and as a result pretty much nobody has heard of them. It probably doesn't help that most streaming/video services will ban your channel if you try to post a "Let's Play" of a game focused on ethnic cleansing...

-Byshop

@Byshop: You don't get a much more dated attitude to women than Frozen.

They are the same Disney princess since Snow White. Everyone is white or token black. Skinny, 'WASP' classic caucasian beauty.

Lilo and Stitch is the one rare exception where body types approached normal and that was an exaggerated style in itself.

Pinnochio, Dumbo and Bambi, whilst harrowing, are at least not another showcase for Disney's ideas about gender roles. I do respect Disney for their amazing skill in the 50's. They just churn out 3d films like anyone else now.

In this clip you can see a hyper-exaggeration of gender tropes in action as a muscular male dominates a fragile female. Then traps her in a cave. Nice.

The Little Mermaid is soft porn. Or at least I assumed it was... Films like The Great Mouse Detective are fine. But crap like Frozen would not be allowed in my house.

If you really want to mess your kids up show them The original UK TV series The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe. That left some dormant illogical fear of wardrobes in my subconscious at least.

"Don't eat the Turkish Delight, Edmond!"

@jackamomo: I can't tell if you're joking or not.

-Byshop

Byshop Thanks you for asking a question I cannot answer as I made about 10 points. Yes I am serious on all counts.

Women are stick insects in Disney films 99% of the time unless they are a baddy, because fat = lacking in moral fibre.

Jennifer Saunders, whilst a national treasure, is not enough to save that film from being pure toxicity.

Throughout history, female body shapes have played a large role in the way women perceive themselves.

In fact, female body shapes have greatly influenced the way people view women. The role of the female body shape has far-reaching effects in determining such things as a woman’s status, her exercise routine and the clothes she wears.

Certain industries, such as entertainment and fashion, are fixated on a woman’s perfect body weight and body shape.

Over the years, women with the perfect hourglass figure have been sought after time and time again. Not only have these industries searched for the perfect hourglass shape, women have desperately attempted to achieve it.

https://www.everydayhealth.com/womens-health/what-are-6-main-female-body-shapes/

It takes a European studio to create depictions of females that celebrate body diversity and present a depiction of a woman which is varied and revealing of feminine nature. None of this is present in the binary world of Disney females.

Terry Pratchett's Wyrd Sisters, whilst nothing like the budget of a Disney production shows three female character types that are recognisable from the actual world and treats them with warmth but does not put them on a pedestal - making them seem very human and relatable.

I cannot relate to Disney characters.

[EDIT] Jennifer Saunders is in Shrek (Dreamworks - 2001), not a sexist film.

I think you're getting a bit more hung up on the art style rather than the content. Frozen has two female leads who are the ones with pretty much all the agency in the story. It's one of the few Disney films with female leads where the solution to the problem isn't "end up with the guy" unlike Little Mermaid, Cinderella, Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, Beauty and the Beast, etc. Funny point about Frozen that's fairly common knowledge, but Elsa was originally supposed to be the villain but they re-wrote the script because they thought that Let It Go was too good a song that made her too sympathetic to be a villain and it ended up being one of the best Disney films in years. This is another example that goes against the "they're ruining the artists' vision!" argument. Which artist? Who's vision? There are hundreds of people on this project and no matter how much you like a game you have no visibility into how many times it was worked and re-worked before you even learned it existed.

Moana is the character with the most agency in her film by a long shot. She's the hero of the story, she has the most screen time, she has the most songs, she has the most courage. Maui is the is the warrior but she's far from useless throughout the action scenes and in the end she's the one who saves the day. The only way Moana gets a little bit short changed in her own film is she lacks character development compared to Maui. Her growth isn't personal so much as experience. She learns to sail and navigate the ocean, but her character doesn't need to grow because she pretty much starts off the film off as the hero she is by the end of it. Compare that to Emperor's New Groove where Kuzco starts off arrogant and selfish and becoming a good person is his "hero's journey". In Moana, they gave the negative traits to Maui, so he got to have more personal growth in Moana over the course of the film. Otherwise, it was all her.

These are films with good messages.

I don't entirely disagree about the body types. Frozen is very "classic" Disney stylistically, sure. Everyone's white but it's based on Scandinavian folklore so I don't bat an eye at that any more than I would at everyone being Polynesian in Moana. And in Moana, characters came in all shapes and sizes. It's not like characters are sexualized in Disney films, and my kids are too young to be paying that much attention to body types at this stage. I do applaud Lilo and Stitch for the way the characters were drawn, though.

I'm more concerned about the content and the message.

-Byshop

@Byshop: I'm talking about body image and impressionable children.

I just made the most air tight argument possible all but proving Disney are degenerate perverts but hey.

Show your kids what you like.

Who writes 'S E X' in stars in Aladdin as the princess goes on a 'carpet ride' with Aladdin and puts a giant dong on the cover to The Little Mermaid?

Psychos.