Religious gamer receives refund for forced Baptism in Bioshock Infinite

I loathe and detest religious nut jobs like that, if i had my way i'd get them all together and bang all their dam heads together and knock some common sense into the lot of them:evil::evil:

With all of the death and destruction and suffering goin on in the world today some cry baby teenager takes offence at somethin not even real in a videogame, jesus christ how messed up are you cuz??!?!?!

Get a life:roll::roll:

What a pathetic idiot, he shouldn't even be touching video games if he reacts like that.

It's just an excuse to get refund or a clever way to play the game for free. He's a genius, not an idiot like people have said.Zensword

if that's the case then they should start putting disclaimers. They shouldn't be limited to sexual themes/alcohol and strong language. While I agree with this post, I also think that there are cases when consumers have the right to be refunded for things they bought if they were able to prove that they didn't know what the medium contains. I am for free speech but there's a thin line between between objective critisim for religions and incitement. 

But 200+ dying from a cartoon?  That's just a bit absurd, and it's something I've never seen, nor do I think WILL be seen again, without religion.

I'm not talking about the game here.

What do you think would garner greater criticism: mocking and making fun of Obama and his policies and beliefs, or the Pope?  I can assure you the Pope would win, and by a large margin.  Hell, just look at the cover and cartoons in "The Week".  It's a political slaughterhouse.  Have you forgotten the incident a while back that involved the cartoon drawing of Muhammad that did cause enormous riots, hundreds of deaths, not to mention death threats and a heavy reward upon the head of the cartoonist?  Hell, a virtual Jihad was pretty much declared against this Danish paper.  The entire Muslim world was in an uproar for a long period of time, over a cartoon.

A CARTOON.

Now if you'd like to show me something similar, so minimalist, that has created such a ridiculous outpouring of outrage about something other than religion, then I'm all ears.  Sure, politics have erupted into violence and deaths, this I don't deny, but it's usually when implemented policies are having a very detrimental and tangible affect on people's lives.  Not some damn cartoon they read in the Sunday funny papers that may, Heaven forbid, even slightly question or disapprove of their personal convictions.  I'm sorry, but people need to learn to be secure in their beliefs, grow a thicker skin, and learn that the world is not going to be merciful as to what they think or believe.  Respect and tolerance is nice and idealistic and all, but in reality the world's always going to be unmerciful as f*ck.  People need to learn this and live with it.

Religion is not off-limits, I agree with you there, it's that it's oftentimes treated as such and there seems to be a very real double standard in what it does and will or will not tolerate compared to anything else.  Nothing in the world creates such uproar as religion when it comes to being offended, even politics, which in my view are far more important and relevant an issue to the well-being of my (and many others) day to day lives, though I'm an atheist so that's just me and I'm obviously not speaking for all. 

But 200+ dying from a cartoon?  That's just a bit absurd, and it's something I've never seen, nor do I think WILL be seen again, without religion.

MirkoS77

[QUOTE="HipHopBeats"]

[QUOTE="Jacanuk"] What are you on about? are you really this shallow and limited that you cannot understand another persons view and be glad that his views are taken serious, despite how insane they may be from a company like Valve. I think it shows Valve as AAA company.Jacanuk

Why even have a Mature rating on games at all? Should the fake Baptism be removed to appease all religious gamers? No religious gamer had a problem with having to sell your soul in order to successfully complete the Theives Guild in Skyrim. God Of War, Dark Souls praise the sun, and so on. If dude is that sensitive with religious beliefs, he shouldn't be playing any violent video games or watching any violent movies period. It's nothing more than self entitlement.

When you purchase a product, technical difficulties should be the only valid reason for a refund. Games have an M rating for a reason.

[QUOTE="MirkoS77"]I'm not talking about the game here.

What do you think would garner greater criticism: mocking and making fun of Obama and his policies and beliefs, or the Pope?  I can assure you the Pope would win, and by a large margin.  Hell, just look at the cover and cartoons in "The Week".  It's a political slaughterhouse.  Have you forgotten the incident a while back that involved the cartoon drawing of Muhammad that did cause enormous riots, hundreds of deaths, not to mention death threats and a heavy reward upon the head of the cartoonist?  Hell, a virtual Jihad was pretty much declared against this Danish paper.  The entire Muslim world was in an uproar for a long period of time, over a cartoon.

A CARTOON.

Now if you'd like to show me something similar, so minimalist, that has created such a ridiculous outpouring of outrage about something other than religion, then I'm all ears.  Sure, politics have erupted into violence and deaths, this I don't deny, but it's usually when implemented policies are having a very detrimental and tangible affect on people's lives.  Not some damn cartoon they read in the Sunday funny papers that may, Heaven forbid, even slightly question or disapprove of their personal convictions.  I'm sorry, but people need to learn to be secure in their beliefs, grow a thicker skin, and learn that the world is not going to be merciful as to what they think or believe.  Respect and tolerance is nice and idealistic and all, but in reality the world's always going to be unmerciful as f*ck.  People need to learn this and live with it.

Religion is not off-limits, I agree with you there, it's that it's oftentimes treated as such and there seems to be a very real double standard in what it does and will or will not tolerate compared to anything else.  Nothing in the world creates such uproar as religion when it comes to being offended, even politics, which in my view are far more important and relevant an issue to the well-being of my (and many others) day to day lives, though I'm an atheist so that's just me and I'm obviously not speaking for all. 

But 200+ dying from a cartoon?  That's just a bit absurd, and it's something I've never seen, nor do I think WILL be seen again, without religion.

MrGeezer

You ask me why a joke of the Pope shouldn't be more objectionable than one of Obama which implies to me you find taking more offense is justified.  You are the one holding the position that religion is just the same in the treatment it receives, then you go on to ask me why people shouldn't get more pissed when religion is treated the same.  What?  Isn't that question a blatant display of the very double standard that I'm arguing exists?  

Why should they be entitled to be more offended?  This somehow insinuates that religious belief is more deserving of respect and acknowledgement than any others.  In what way?

I also agree that religion should not be off limits. My point, quite simply, is that game developers need to own up to their responsibility in cases like this where people are offended when they decide to exploit controversial issues for the sake of the game.capaho

[QUOTE="capaho"]

I also agree that religion should not be off limits. My point, quite simply, is that game developers need to own up to their responsibility in cases like this where people are offended when they decide to exploit controversial issues for the sake of the game.MirkoS77

Haven't we covered all of that already?  Is there anything else to say on this issue that hasn't already been said?

Audiences and artists of who?  Again, I am not talking about religion pertaining to the developers or customers.  Just in general.  All I'm saying is that religion is more of a touchy subject and is many times treated like it.  You seem to believe that religious criticism is not more prone to censorship and not viewed as contemptible any more than any other subject in the public eye, to which I vehemently disagree.  

You ask me why a joke of the Pope shouldn't be more objectionable than one of Obama which implies to me you find taking more offense is justified.  You are the one holding the position that religion is just the same in the treatment it receives, then you go on to ask me why people shouldn't get more pissed when religion is treated the same.  What?  Isn't that question a blatant display of the very double standard that I'm arguing exists?  

Why should they be entitled to be more offended?  This somehow insinuates that religious belief is more deserving of respect and acknowledgement than any others.  In what way?MirkoS77

LMAO. Kills people in games with Black Crows eaten alive, but oh nooooo when it comes to forced Baptism, that draws the line.

Probably more a customer service "peace offering" on Valve's part, and good for them, this is how companies should treat their customers, for any and all reasons, including ones that seem silly.

[QUOTE="MirkoS77"]Audiences and artists of who?  Again, I am not talking about religion pertaining to the developers or customers.  Just in general.  All I'm saying is that religion is more of a touchy subject and is many times treated like it.  You seem to believe that religious criticism is not more prone to censorship and not viewed as contemptible any more than any other subject in the public eye, to which I vehemently disagree.  

You ask me why a joke of the Pope shouldn't be more objectionable than one of Obama which implies to me you find taking more offense is justified.  You are the one holding the position that religion is just the same in the treatment it receives, then you go on to ask me why people shouldn't get more pissed when religion is treated the same.  What?  Isn't that question a blatant display of the very double standard that I'm arguing exists?  

Why should they be entitled to be more offended?  This somehow insinuates that religious belief is more deserving of respect and acknowledgement than any others.  In what way?MrGeezer

[QUOTE="MirkoS77"]

[QUOTE="capaho"]

I also agree that religion should not be off limits. My point, quite simply, is that game developers need to own up to their responsibility in cases like this where people are offended when they decide to exploit controversial issues for the sake of the game.capaho

Haven't we covered all of that already?  Is there anything else to say on this issue that hasn't already been said?

No, I don't believe we've gone over exploitation of the game as to why that gives any grounds for a refund.  It's been discussed from a customer service perspective mostly.  Show me.

MirkoS77

Refunds are always customer service decisions, that's what it's all about.  It comes down to the fact that the customer was dissatisfied with the product, the specific reason is only noteworthy in this case because it was based on the person's religious beliefs.  What difference does it make?  From Valve's standpoint it was a customer satisfaction issue and that made it a good business decision.  For all we know, aside from the specific issue with Bioshock Infinite, the customer in question could be an active member on Steam who has a lengthy purchase history.  If that's the case, it would have been absolutely stupid from a business standpoint to refuse his refund request.

[QUOTE="MirkoS77"]

No, I don't believe we've gone over exploitation of the game as to why that gives any grounds for a refund.  It's been discussed from a customer service perspective mostly.  Show me.

capaho

Refunds are always customer service decisions, that's what it's all about.  It comes down to the fact that the customer was dissatisfied with the product, the specific reason is only noteworthy in this case because it was based on the person's religious beliefs.  What difference does it make?  From Valve's standpoint it was a customer satisfaction issue and that made it a good business decision.  For all we know, aside from the specific issue with Bioshock Infinite, the customer in question could be an active member on Steam who has a lengthy purchase history.  If that's the case, it would have been absolutely stupid from a business standpoint to refuse his refund request.

This has nothing to do with you mentioning exploiting the customer.  You said we'd gone over it, I don't recall it and asked you to show me where.  You didn't.  Whatever.

MirkoS77

So wait....double standards don't exist in the world because everything is subjective?  Is this really what you're suggesting? That's all I'm getting from you here.  It's subjective, sure, but that doesn't stop the majority from having a more significant influence, does it? Entitlement has EVERYTHING to do with it. And you still haven't provided me with an example of something so miniscule as a cartoon causing so many deaths if related to politics, so until you do, yes, religion is much more of a touchy subject. It is not as easily as arguable (hell, not even arguable at all really), and I don't know what world you're living in. At this point I'm beginning to think you're arguing just to argue. And you're really going to attempt to use ONE instance of some nutjob trying to poison a politician over a single (and more than likely a far more significant) issue than killing hundreds and causing riots for weeks on end over the funny papers? As you told me, I'll tell you: GTF out of here. There is no comparison. MirkoS77

Oh, wait...it's okay for you to use ONE incident of people getting killed for religious reasons, but there's something wrong with me giving an example of ONE attempted act of violence on a politician? THAT'S a double standard. The fact is that one can find way more than one example of both. Those are also statistically f***ing rare. There have been numerous people killed for political reasons, there have been numerous people killed for religious reasons, but the very fact of the matter is that both of those things are out of the norm.

For every cartoon that inspires a jihad, you've got a S***load of people criticizing religion and nothing ever happens to them. For every person who gets beaten or assassinated or imprisoned for political reasons, the vast majority of people pushing a political agenda end up getting away with no severe consequences. People voice their religious and political beliefs all the damn time, and MOST of both groups aren't killed or shut down. MrGeezer

I'm done arguing with you because you really are not even arguing against me, you're arguing against fact.  Religion is accorded special treatment ALL THE TIME.  To even try to argue against this is absurd.  In the meantime, I'll be waiting until the day arrives where a simple political cartoon or commentary lights the U.S. on fire for weeks, causing riots in the streets and hundreds of deaths.  From Wiki about the Danish cartoon incident:

Having received petitions from Danish imams, eleven ambassadors from Muslim-majority countries Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, Egypt, Indonesia, Algeria, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Libya, Morocco, as well as the Head of the Palestinian General Delegation[11]  asked for a meeting with Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen on 12 October 2005. They wanted to discuss what they perceived as an "on-going smearing campaign in Danish public circles and media against Islam and Muslims".[19] 

Why don't you substitute 11 U.S. states in place of those 11COUNTRIES and replace "Islam and Muslims" of the bolded underlined with "Conservatives and Republicans" and then try to convince me that politics and religion are treated the same?  Do you honestly believe you'd ever see that happen over a cartoon with politics?  It'd be laughed at.  But NO, with religion it's entirely acceptable.  This is the double standard, and I've no doubt you're going to try to ignore this point to somehow attempt to say that religion is not afforded special privileges.

Have at it.

I'm done arguing with you because you really are not even arguing against me, you're arguing against fact.  Religion is accorded special treatment ALL THE TIME.  To even try to argue against this is absurd.  In the meantime, I'll be waiting until the day arrives where a simple political cartoon or commentary lights the U.S. on fire for weeks, causing riots in the streets and hundreds of deaths.  From Wiki about the Danish cartoon incident:

Having received petitions from Danish imams, eleven ambassadors from Muslim-majority countries Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, Egypt, Indonesia, Algeria, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Libya, Morocco, as well as the Head of the Palestinian General Delegation[11]  asked for a meeting with Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen on 12 October 2005. They wanted to discuss what they perceived as an "on-going smearing campaign in Danish public circles and media against Islam and Muslims".[19] 

Why don't you substitute 11 U.S. states in place of those 11COUNTRIES and replace "Islam and Muslims" of the bolded underlined with "Conservatives and Republicans" and then try to convince me that politics and religion are treated the same?  Do you honestly believe you'd ever see that happen over a cartoon with politics?  It'd be laughed at.  But NO, with religion it's entirely acceptable.  This is the double standard, and I've no doubt you're going to try to ignore this point to somehow attempt to say that religion is not afforded special privileges.

Have at it.

MirkoS77

I told myself I wasn't going to reply but this is so dumb that I feel compelled to.

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"] Please, political views get special treatment ALL THE TIME. Don't try to tell me that Fox news doesn't have a right wing bias, don't try to tell me that MSNBC doesn't swing heavily to the left. Religion AND politics get special treatment, you're just looking at this lopsidedly and exhibiting a persecution complex. ANYTHING gets "special treatment" depending on what segment of the audience is most valuable.MirkoS77

Obviously liberal and conservative views reside in the realm of politics.  Each of those channels cater to different audiences.  How is that special treatment?  Perhaps special treatment is the wrong term when I speak on religion and its place.  Privilege is better suited so I'll use that from now on.  Neither Fox nor MSNBC are given privilege over the other's perspective in what they can or cannot discuss compared to one another, nor is one view censored more than any other.  They are different sides of the same coin.  Religion is the same....different beliefs on the same issue.  What I'm arguing is that when you put something such as religion up against something such as politics, this is where the double standard arises.

Also, GTF out of here. You cite a few hundred people getting killed over a cartoon, but political (and non-religious) issues have also played heavily in goddamned revolutions. Granted, the religion and the politics often get intertwined and it's difficult to determine which was the real issue, but that's also precisely why it's f***ing moronic to approach that with a "system wars" mentality. You might have a scoreboard tallying the deaths and injustices caused by religion, someone else might have a scoreboard tallying the deaths and injustices caused by politics, but at the end of the day it's flat out moronic to act as if one is getting special treatment over the other.MrGeezer

You over and over and over again are viewing politics and religion separately and my entire argument rests on the relation between the two.  You have to view them in opposition to understand my position.  You can try to dismiss and attempt to belittle this as "system wars" mentality if you want, by that reasoning I suppose every argument that has two sides is a SW mentality.  Strange how that works.

This isn't about deaths or revolutions.  I am using the deaths caused by the cartoon to show how it's a byproduct of this double standard that religion holds.  I think it's demonstrative to the fact to show that, yes, while deaths, violence, revolutions, and all that do occur with politicss just as it does with religion, the degree of upset and outrage that religious criticism creates compared to politics is the point.  

I'll end this now as I'm really tiring of this argument and it's going nowhere.  But before I go it'd be great to hear your answer to this question (though I can't say I'm expecting it).  This is not a rhetorical question, I'm actually curious as to your reasoning:

Putting everything else aside that we've discussed so far, do you believe that what happened with that cartoon would've happened if pictures mocking and making fun of Obama were shown instead?  Yes or no, and then I'd appreciate hearing your reasoning as to how it's not a double standard when you answer no, because you and I both know you are unable to answer yes.

Religion is not the only exception to free speech. Political views are also an exception to speech and many other rights or you wouldn't see US gov imprisoning Hammond for over six hundred days and Manning for over a thousand. Pretrial detentions, expecially when used as punishment, are illegal. The same applies to Guantanamo detainees, the boston bomber and the whole miranda rights delimma. No human is exempt from the right to a fair trial which includes informing the suspect of their rights. Speaking against a government's foreign policies and abuses of human rights does not make one "anti-American" A label I get a lot, just as speaking against uncivil ways of expressing disagreement and death threats by Muslims is not Islamophobic. 

If Anti-war messages in Ninja Theory games weren't so sublte, would people be okay with it? I doubt it. 

Edit: And then almost everyone here except for Mrgeezer are acting as if the dude asked the company to remove the content when he didn't. This piece of news is NOT about censoring speech in games. It's about a consumer who thought there wasn't going to be any objectionable content in the product and turned out there was. People of race/gender/religion and any group have the right to be refunded if they were able to prove they didn't know the game was going to offend them. We often say don't like it, don't buy it. He didn't like it and he wants his money back. 

Why don't you substitute 11 U.S. states in place of those 11 COUNTRIES and replace "Islam and Muslims" of the bolded underlined with "Conservatives and Republicans" and then try to convince me that politics and religion are treated the same?  Do you honestly believe you'd ever see that happen over a cartoon with politics?  It'd be laughed at.  But NO, with religion it's entirely acceptable.  This is the double standard, and I've no doubt you're going to try to ignore this point to somehow attempt to say that religion is not afforded special privileges.

MirkoS77

I told myself I wasn't going to reply but this is so dumb that I feel compelled to.

Please, political views get special treatment ALL THE TIME. Don't try to tell me that Fox news doesn't have a right wing bias, don't try to tell me that MSNBC doesn't swing heavily to the left. Religion AND politics get special treatment, you're just looking at this lopsidedly and exhibiting a persecution complex. ANYTHING gets "special treatment" depending on what segment of the audience is most valuable.MrGeezer

Obviously liberal and conservative views reside in the realm of politics.  Each of those channels cater to different audiences.  How is that special treatment?  Perhaps special treatment is the wrong term when I speak on religion and its place.  Privilege is better suited so I'll use that from now on.  Neither Fox nor MSNBC are given privilege over the other's perspective in what they can or cannot discuss compared to one another, nor is one view censored more than any other.  They are different sides of the same coin.  Religion is the same....different beliefs on the same issue.  What I'm arguing is that when you put something such as religion up against something such as politics, this is where the double standard arises.

Also, GTF out of here. You cite a few hundred people getting killed over a cartoon, but political (and non-religious) issues have also played heavily in goddamned revolutions. Granted, the religion and the politics often get intertwined and it's difficult to determine which was the real issue, but that's also precisely why it's f***ing moronic to approach that with a "system wars" mentality. You might have a scoreboard tallying the deaths and injustices caused by religion, someone else might have a scoreboard tallying the deaths and injustices caused by politics, but at the end of the day it's flat out moronic to act as if one is getting special treatment over the other.MrGeezer

You over and over and over again are viewing politics and religion separately and my entire argument rests on the relation between the two.  You have to view them in opposition to understand my position.  You can try to dismiss and attempt to belittle this as "system wars" mentality if you want, by that reasoning I suppose every argument that has two sides is a SW mentality.  Strange how that works.

This isn't about deaths or revolutions.  I am using the deaths caused by the cartoon to show how it's a byproduct of this double standard that religion holds.  I think it's demonstrative to the fact to show that, yes, while deaths, violence, revolutions, and all that do occur with politicss just as it does with religion, the degree of upset and outrage that religious criticism creates compared to politics is the point.  

I'll end this now as I'm really tiring of this argument and it's going nowhere.  But before I go it'd be great to hear your answer to this question (though I can't say I'm expecting it).  This is not a rhetorical question, I'm actually curious as to your reasoning:

Putting everything else aside that we've discussed so far, do you believe that what happened with that cartoon would've happened if pictures mocking and making fun of Obama were shown instead?  Yes or no, and then I'd appreciate hearing your reasoning as to how it's not a double standard when you answer no, because you and I both know you are unable to answer yes.

I'm religious and I think this is stupid. I finished BioShock Infinite as well and it didn't offend me.