Sega Genesis, Just How many Add-ons this system have.

[QUOTE="Video_Game_King"]

I wasn't saying it destroyed the Genesis, I was trying to disprove a notion that could be derived from your explanation. The 32X was pretty much a stalemate, and pretty much a piece of gaming history you could skip over. It had about 40 games, it wasn't true 32 bit (how can this compare to early 3D games in the PS1/N64 era?), and the Saturn came out in Japan around the same time.

Well, that's why I said they were a vocal part of the Sega CD's history. And I could reverse what you said about Snatcher and DKC. Why play a game that's fairly linear, limited, and involves little gameplay when you can go for the tried and true model of DKC? (Keep in mind that I actually like Snatcher.) And couldn't the Saturn do whatever the Sega CD could? Can you imagine how much more successful the Saturn would've been if it had its own Sonic game? Please don't bring up Sonic-R (that's a spin-off) or Sonic 3D Blast (it wasn't 3D and the Genesis had it as well (even if it wasn't that good)).

Panzer_Zwei

And no matter how you slice it, Snatcher was unlike anything people had played in the west on consoles up to that point in time. DKC was just another platform game that was hyped because of its graphics thanks to the power system console war they had going at the time.

I can imagine how successful the Saturn would have been in the west if they had actually localized all the games that were being making big waves at the time. Grandia was heralded as the FFVII killer by every single publication in Japan and both were released in the same year. But it was never localized. And they just were too many examples like that. Again, the demise of the Saturn had to do with many poor decisions with the Saturn itself. People that claim the Super 32X and Mega-CD ruined everything for SEGA don't have any idea of what they're talking about. I can't put it more simplier than that.

The Genesis wasn't a bad console, nor were the consoles after it.... I mean the DC is awesome, and so was the Saturn. DANG the Saturn is/was my favorite console.

Well that's what everybody in Japan was saying at the time. They said Grandia was better. And if you look at the title of the GameSpot's SS Grandia review, you can see they were greatly influenced by the Japanese critics. Of course GS was terrible at reviewing games at that time anyway.

Also, Grandia didn't had to sell the same than FFVII to be successful. It was considered a success for the Saturn in Japan to begin with. But Grandia is a nice example of the developers that were making exclusive games for the Saturn. Games like Grandia, Silhouette Mirage, Soul Hackers etc. were only ported to the Playstation like a year or two after they had been released on the Saturn. So they were developed exclusively for the Saturn.

And what you just mentioned is just one of the *real* reasons that hindered the Saturn. And it spawned of the fact that the Mega Drive hadn't been successful in Japan, so the western divisions thought they knew best. Even today, the American divison is the one producing all those crappy releases.

Panzer_Zwei

Yay, somebody else thinks that early GameSpot wrote terrible reviews!

Given your definition of success, yea, it had to :P. Or at least sell well. And I still consider it a multiplatform game on that technicality.

That brings up the question of why the hell Sega of Japan hasn't done something about it. You'd think something like this would be in the company's interest.

[QUOTE="Panzer_Zwei"]

Well that's what everybody in Japan was saying at the time. They said Grandia was better. And if you look at the title of the GameSpot's SS Grandia review, you can see they were greatly influenced by the Japanese critics. Of course GS was terrible at reviewing games at that time anyway.

Also, Grandia didn't had to sell the same than FFVII to be successful. It was considered a success for the Saturn in Japan to begin with. But Grandia is a nice example of the developers that were making exclusive games for the Saturn. Games like Grandia, Silhouette Mirage, Soul Hackers etc. were only ported to the Playstation like a year or two after they had been released on the Saturn. So they were developed exclusively for the Saturn.

And what you just mentioned is just one of the *real* reasons that hindered the Saturn. And it spawned of the fact that the Mega Drive hadn't been successful in Japan, so the western divisions thought they knew best. Even today, the American divison is the one producing all those crappy releases.

Video_Game_King

Yay, somebody else thinks that early GameSpot wrote terrible reviews!

Given your definition of success, yea, it had to :P. Or at least sell well. And I still consider it a multiplatform game on that technicality.

That brings up the question of why the hell Sega of Japan hasn't done something about it. You'd think something like this would be in the company's interest.

And yes, technically it is a multiplatform game. But it was released on the Playstation two whole years after its original release and downgraded. Hardly anythinh to write home about.

No it doesn't. Grandia didn't cost as much to produce for GameArts than what FFVII costed to Squaresoft. And yet critically Grandia was on the same level. Which gives the game even more credit.

And yes, technically it is a multiplatform game. But it was released on the Playstation two whole years after its original release and downgraded. Hardly anythinh to write home about.

Panzer_Zwei

That's what I meant by sell well: sell more than enough to cover the costs of making the game. Perhaps I should've elaborated rather than assume the phrase was universally understood in the same manner.

Why would you write home about it, unless you moved away for the sole purpose of playing the game? Besides, the PS1 version did have one advantage: it was localized, making it a lot easier to play (text heavy game+text in another language=NIGHTMARE). Same thing with the Lunar games, but I don't count those since you could play the Sega CD versions and get mostly the same picture.

[QUOTE="Panzer_Zwei"]

No it doesn't. Grandia didn't cost as much to produce for GameArts than what FFVII costed to Squaresoft. And yet critically Grandia was on the same level. Which gives the game even more credit.

And yes, technically it is a multiplatform game. But it was released on the Playstation two whole years after its original release and downgraded. Hardly anythinh to write home about.

Video_Game_King

That's what I meant by sell well: sell more than enough to cover the costs of making the game. Perhaps I should've elaborated rather than assume the phrase was universally understood in the same manner.

Why would you write home about it, unless you moved away for the sole purpose of playing the game? Besides, the PS1 version did have one advantage: it was localized, making it a lot easier to play (text heavy game+text in another language=NIGHTMARE). Same thing with the Lunar games, but I don't count those since you could play the Sega CD versions and get mostly the same picture.

And the language is not a real advantage since that has to do with the player and not the game. That you can't understand Japanese doesn't mean everybody else can't. You can learn another language, yet missing frames, poor audio and slowdown are real disadvantages that you cannot fix.

And even so, the localized PS version was rubbish and censored.

I did mentioned that Grandia was successful on the Saturn in Japan in the first place.

And the language is not a real advantage since that has to do with the player and not the game. That you can't understand Japanese doesn't mean everybody else can't. You can learn another language, yet missing frames, poor audio and slowdown are real disadvantages that you cannot fix.

Panzer_Zwei

I concede that to you, yet I won't go down without a fight. You didn't clarify. That's my fight :P.

I can learn another language, but I'm not sure that's something everybody should do for a few games, or rather would. I'd deal with that stuff if it meant I could understand the game and therefore appreciate it further. Besides, I believe some of those problems can either be caused or alleviated by how old your system is (using a launch system probably isn't as good as playing it on one released alongside an FF9 promotional event, for example).

[QUOTE="Panzer_Zwei"]

I did mentioned that Grandia was successful on the Saturn in Japan in the first place.

And the language is not a real advantage since that has to do with the player and not the game. That you can't understand Japanese doesn't mean everybody else can't. You can learn another language, yet missing frames, poor audio and slowdown are real disadvantages that you cannot fix.

Video_Game_King

I concede that to you, yet I won't go down without a fight. You didn't clarify. That's my fight :P.

I can learn another language, but I'm not sure that's something everybody should do for a few games, or rather would. I'd deal with that stuff if it meant I could understand the game and therefore appreciate it further. Besides, I believe some of those problems can either be caused or alleviated by how old your system is (using a launch system probably isn't as good as playing it on one released alongside an FF9 promotional event, for example).

And I guess the Saturn owners still got the best of both worlds, since the fan translations were more accurate than the rubbish and cencored one Sony did.

You could play the game on whatever Playstation model and it will still give you the same issues. The game was downgraded, plain and simple.

And I guess the Saturn owners still got the best of both worlds, since the fan translations were more accurate than the rubbish and cencored one Sony did.

Panzer_Zwei

Again, I'll give you that, even though I've heard of that issue before.

Fan translation? As in emulation? That can't be possible. The Saturn was - no, wait, is - incredibly hard to emulate. The only benefit of two processors was how hard it was to pirate years later (ironic, because that's kinda the same as why game companies had trouble programming for the system). And.....I couldn't find any complete translations. Unless you're talking about text dumps.

[QUOTE="Panzer_Zwei"]

You could play the game on whatever Playstation model and it will still give you the same issues. The game was downgraded, plain and simple.

And I guess the Saturn owners still got the best of both worlds, since the fan translations were more accurate than the rubbish and cencored one Sony did.

Video_Game_King

Again, I'll give you that, even though I've heard of that issue before.

Fan translation? As in emulation? That can't be possible. The Saturn was - no, wait, is - incredibly hard to emulate. The only benefit of two processors was how hard it was to pirate years later (ironic, because that's kinda the same as why game companies had trouble programming for the system). And.....I couldn't find any complete translations. Unless you're talking about text dumps.

[QUOTE="Video_Game_King"]

[QUOTE="Panzer_Zwei"]

You could play the game on whatever Playstation model and it will still give you the same issues. The game was downgraded, plain and simple.

And I guess the Saturn owners still got the best of both worlds, since the fan translations were more accurate than the rubbish and cencored one Sony did.

Panzer_Zwei

Again, I'll give you that, even though I've heard of that issue before.

Fan translation? As in emulation? That can't be possible. The Saturn was - no, wait, is - incredibly hard to emulate. The only benefit of two processors was how hard it was to pirate years later (ironic, because that's kinda the same as why game companies had trouble programming for the system). And.....I couldn't find any complete translations. Unless you're talking about text dumps.

Fan translation kinda implied emulation, since the two are highly related. How do you think Americans first played Final Fantasy V in English? And I'll need to search for both of those, along with several others.

[QUOTE="Panzer_Zwei"]

[QUOTE="Video_Game_King"]

Again, I'll give you that, even though I've heard of that issue before.

Fan translation? As in emulation? That can't be possible. The Saturn was - no, wait, is - incredibly hard to emulate. The only benefit of two processors was how hard it was to pirate years later (ironic, because that's kinda the same as why game companies had trouble programming for the system). And.....I couldn't find any complete translations. Unless you're talking about text dumps.

Video_Game_King

Fan translation kinda implied emulation, since the two are highly related. How do you think Americans first played Final Fantasy V in English? And I'll need to search for both of those, along with several others.

The 32X wasn't popular anywhere, but it didn't hindered the Mega Drive *at all* as it seems to be the popular belief. When the 32X came out the Mega Drive's 6 year lifespan was pretty much already over.

Also the Mega-CD was the most advanced 16-bit CD-ROM attachment, since the Turbo Duo wasn't even able do tech-wise what regular MD cartridges could with the obvious exception of red book audio of course.Panzer_Zwei

That's news to me. I don't see how a fan translation implies emulation. And Americans who are into piracy you should specify.

Panzer_Zwei

Whenver you hear fan translations, you usually hear something about emulation. Final Fantasy V, Mother 3, Seiken Densetsu 3, Dragon Quest VI, Fire Emblem 4, all of them invovled emulation/piracy to some extent. Hell, look up fan translations on Wikipedia (and then click on the video game section). There's an entire section on emulation, and the second sentence mentions it.

[QUOTE="Panzer_Zwei"]

Since the Super 32X came out at the end of the Mega Drive I fail to see how could it have ruined a system that had already lived 6 years. Not even the SFC was supported for more than 6 years. Hell, the MD was supported longer in reality. But it's all about the people's pereception. If Nintendo's next handheld system would have failed for whatever reason, people would blamed the Virtual Boy for its demise in the same way.

And it's the same thing with FMV games. They were in reality just a tinty bit of the 16-bit CD-ROM releases. The Turbo Duo couldn't even do FMV, and it got over 500 CD-ROM games released. However FMV games are what people remember the most. And I disagree with you that they should have just waited for the next-generation. It's easy to say that if you never owned any during their lifespan, or just got crappy games for them. But they had plenty of games that kept gamers happy until the next-generation systems were released.

I still remember when Snatcher was released, just within days of Donkey Kong Country. Nothing beated the experience of playing Snatcher back in 1994 while other people were still playing the same old rehashed platform formula with just sharper graphics.

Video_Game_King

I wasn't saying it destroyed the Genesis, I was trying to disprove a notion that could be derived from your explanation. The 32X was pretty much a stalemate, and pretty much a piece of gaming history you could skip over. It had about 40 games, it wasn't true 32 bit (how can this compare to early 3D games in the PS1/N64 era?), and the Saturn came out in Japan around the same time.

Well, that's why I said they were a vocal part of the Sega CD's history. And I could reverse what you said about Snatcher and DKC. Why play a game that's fairly linear, limited, and involves little gameplay when you can go for the tried and true model of DKC? (Keep in mind that I actually like Snatcher.) And couldn't the Saturn do whatever the Sega CD could? Can you imagine how much more successful the Saturn would've been if it had its own Sonic game? Please don't bring up Sonic-R (that's a spin-off) or Sonic 3D Blast (it wasn't 3D and the Genesis had it as well (even if it wasn't that good)).

Knuckles Chaotics is not a very good game to use as an argument in talking about 3D graphic power of the 32X as that game was and still is a 2D platformer game. Games like Virtua Racing Deluxe, Doom, and Virtua Fighter were true 3D games for the 32X.

Also why on earth are you comparing Snatcher with DKC which are two entirely different games. DKC is a side scrolling adventure like Sonic the Hedgehog which in my opinon is miles ahead of DKC, in fact the whole idea of controlling both Donkey and Diddy Kong was an idea stolen from Sonic 2 with Sonic and Tails.

Overall in the discussion of the Mega Drive successes and failures, its important to note that the Mega Drive was a complete failure in other countries outside of the United States. Sega of Japan had not made any market share gains with the Mega Drive, just as they didn't make any gains with their prior system the Mark III over Nintendo's popular Famicom and Super Famicom.

Most of the success and appraisal that Sega got and still get thanks to some of us old Sega gamers that remember it was based in large parts to the Japanese company giving Sega of America full control of marketing the Mega Drive. It is the American market, that birth the radical marketing of the Sega Genesis that SoA execs help choreograph that elevated Sega from small game company in 1989 to a dominating organization in the early 90s. I kid you not folks, if you look up the console war from the 1990s Sega vs Nintendo on your university's electronic library resource journals you will find many articles that headlines the hey day successes Sega of America had in those times.

Sega actually had a 65% market share on the gaming industry in 1993, when it was marketing the Sega Genesis, Game Gear and Sega CD, against SNES, NeoGeo, and 3DO.

It was 1994 that became the year that Nintendo began pushing back harder and getting tougher in their marketing to try to shift the momentum.

I think it was 1995 the year Sega's market share fall rapidly, as they shifted focus from 16-bit to 32-bit push and pushed out the Sega Saturn way to early. while not providing any backward compatibility to their previous console (I still don't get why the Saturn's cartridge port didn't support a Genesis/32x cart :x), secondly the whole vibe that made Sega a big hit during the 16-bit era "WELCOME TO THE NEXT LEVEL", the anti-Nintendo ads, where they would go after Nintendo at every turn had ceased.

It's safe to say now that their next foe SONY was way out Sega's lead.

I know now from reading that interview that the former Sega of America President Michael Katz did with Sega 16 is that things began to fall apart for Sega around the Saturn launch was due to the parent Sega of Japan demanding more control of their satelite regions.

Too funny. I bought the Sega CD that hooked up to my Genisis, but never bought into the 32x

[QUOTE="SciFiCat"][QUOTE="FirstDiscovery"]Youre just using anything and everything And plus, Sega CD was really good, if only Sega decided to concentrate all effort into ONE system, as well not make so many silly decisions with the Mega Drive...Panzer_Zwei

Knuckles Chaotics is not a very good game to use as an argument in talking about 3D graphic power of the 32X as that game was and still is a 2D platformer game. Games like Virtua Racing Deluxe, Doom, and Virtua Fighter were true 3D games for the 32X.

Also why on earth are you comparing Snatcher with DKC which are two entirely different games. DKC is a side scrolling adventure like Sonic the Hedgehog which in my opinon is miles ahead of DKC, in fact the whole idea of controlling both Donkey and Diddy Kong was an idea stolen from Sonic 2 with Sonic and Tails.

Overall in the discussion of the Mega Drive successes and failures, its important to note that the Mega Drive was a complete failure in other countries outside of the United States. Sega of Japan had not made any market share gains with the Mega Drive, just as they didn't make any gains with their prior system the Mark III over Nintendo's popular Famicom and Super Famicom.

Most of the success and appraisal that Sega got and still get thanks to some of us old Sega gamers that remember it was based in large parts to the Japanese company giving Sega of America full control of marketing the Mega Drive. It is the American market, that birth the radical marketing of the Sega Genesis that SoA execs help choreograph that elevated Sega from small game company in 1989 to a dominating organization in the early 90s. I kid you not folks, if you look up the console war from the 1990s Sega vs Nintendo on your university's electronic library resource journals you will find many articles that headlines the hey day successes Sega of America had in those times.

Sega actually had a 65% market share on the gaming industry in 1993, when it was marketing the Sega Genesis, Game Gear and Sega CD, against SNES, NeoGeo, and 3DO.

It was 1994 that became the year that Nintendo began pushing back harder and getting tougher in their marketing to try to shift the momentum.

I think it was 1995 the year Sega's market share fall rapidly, as they shifted focus from 16-bit to 32-bit push and pushed out the Sega Saturn way to early. while not providing any backward compatibility to their previous console (I still don't get why the Saturn's cartridge port didn't support a Genesis/32x cart :x), secondly the whole vibe that made Sega a big hit during the 16-bit era "WELCOME TO THE NEXT LEVEL", the anti-Nintendo ads, where they would go after Nintendo at every turn had ceased.

It's safe to say now that their next foe SONY was way out Sega's lead.

I know now from reading that interview that the former Sega of America President Michael Katz did with Sega 16 is that things began to fall apart for Sega around the Saturn launch was due to the parent Sega of Japan demanding more control of their satelite regions.

clsmithj

OK, fair enough, even if Doom isn't true 3D from a technical perspective. Still, the add-on had crap 3D capabilities. You didn't see that many textures, just filled in polygons, and the polygon count wasn't really that high. Hell, I looked it up, and the 32X could render only 50,000 polygons per second, while the Saturn could do 200-500,000 per second. Do you see the difference?

I don't even remember, I think it was about how both could be construed as overrated.

Wait, universities have video game history articles? Where the hell are these gaming historians? Why haven't they made themselves well known? I'm tired of video game history being dominated by amateurs like us :P:|!.

I think it would've been a bit weird for a CD-based console to have cartridge based backward compatability. Just seems...odd. And I'd say there were other problems with the Saturn in addition to being pushed out early, like not telling retailers it was being pushed out early, and making a hard-to-program-for system at a pivotal time in video game history.

That's all I have.

Interesting list of add-ons & peripherals, some of them I never even heard of. They also had the Sega Mouse, which wasn't really an "add-on", just an accessory. There was also a third-party modem called the X-Band modem which was released in the U.S.

I never had a Genesis, but my friend did and he had the Sega CD. I remember playing "Dark Wizard" on it, it was pretty fun.

i could only recall only 2 addons. one looks like a tumor and one is raping the back side of the genesis

it has less than the snes:

super scope, duck hunt gun, power glove, motion map (think thats what it was called), gameboy to snes converter card, that balancing pad thing, uk to us cartridge converter etc.

it has less than the snes:

super scope, duck hunt gun, power glove, motion map (think thats what it was called), gameboy to snes converter card, that balancing pad thing, uk to us cartridge converter etc.

aura_enchanted

Knuckles Chaotics is not a very good game to use as an argument in talking about 3D graphic power of the 32X as that game was and still is a 2D platformer game. Games like Virtua Racing Deluxe, Doom, and Virtua Fighter were true 3D games for the 32X.

Also why on earth are you comparing Snatcher with DKC which are two entirely different games. DKC is a side scrolling adventure like Sonic the Hedgehog which in my opinon is miles ahead of DKC, in fact the whole idea of controlling both Donkey and Diddy Kong was an idea stolen from Sonic 2 with Sonic and Tails.

Overall in the discussion of the Mega Drive successes and failures, its important to note that the Mega Drive was a complete failure in other countries outside of the United States. Sega of Japan had not made any market share gains with the Mega Drive, just as they didn't make any gains with their prior system the Mark III over Nintendo's popular Famicom and Super Famicom.

Most of the success and appraisal that Sega got and still get thanks to some of us old Sega gamers that remember it was based in large parts to the Japanese company giving Sega of America full control of marketing the Mega Drive. It is the American market, that birth the radical marketing of the Sega Genesis that SoA execs help choreograph that elevated Sega from small game company in 1989 to a dominating organization in the early 90s. I kid you not folks, if you look up the console war from the 1990s Sega vs Nintendo on your university's electronic library resource journals you will find many articles that headlines the hey day successes Sega of America had in those times.

Sega actually had a 65% market share on the gaming industry in 1993, when it was marketing the Sega Genesis, Game Gear and Sega CD, against SNES, NeoGeo, and 3DO.

It was 1994 that became the year that Nintendo began pushing back harder and getting tougher in their marketing to try to shift the momentum.

I think it was 1995 the year Sega's market share fall rapidly, as they shifted focus from 16-bit to 32-bit push and pushed out the Sega Saturn way to early. while not providing any backward compatibility to their previous console (I still don't get why the Saturn's cartridge port didn't support a Genesis/32x cart :x), secondly the whole vibe that made Sega a big hit during the 16-bit era "WELCOME TO THE NEXT LEVEL", the anti-Nintendo ads, where they would go after Nintendo at every turn had ceased.

It's safe to say now that their next foe SONY was way out Sega's lead.

I know now from reading that interview that the former Sega of America President Michael Katz did with Sega 16 is that things began to fall apart for Sega around the Saturn launch was due to the parent Sega of Japan demanding more control of their satelite regions.

clsmithj

And what did you expect SoA to say? It's not like they are gonna admit it was them who screwed up big time and alienated everybody. It wasn't SoJ who didn't even notified retailers about the launch date of the system in their region.

SoA/E totally messed up the Saturn in the West, and they also messed big time again with the Dreamcast. Also all the "rad" attitude and ads you're mentioned were a thing of the western divisions, that did not exist in Japan.

Also you are wrong about that SoA made SEGA a big gaming company. It was their Arcade smash hits that made the developing of their consoles possible in the first place. SEGA was the biggest Arcade company in the 80's already. Their home division, including the Mega Drive, never came nowhere close to the success they had on the Arcades.

Wrong, the Mega Drive was the most successful 16-bit system in Europe.

Panzer_Zwei

Do you have a source to back up that statement? I was always under the impression that the SNES eventually outsold the Mega Drive/Genesis in all three regions (although sales in North America were extremely close).

[QUOTE="Panzer_Zwei"]

Wrong, the Mega Drive was the most successful 16-bit system in Europe.

Rocky32189

Do you have a source to back up that statement? I was always under the impression that the SNES eventually outsold the Mega Drive/Genesis in all three regions (although sales in North America were extremely close).

The Mega Drive was also the most popular system in South America, and if I remember correctly, with an even more drastic market share % than in Europe.

[QUOTE="Rocky32189"]

[QUOTE="Panzer_Zwei"]

Wrong, the Mega Drive was the most successful 16-bit system in Europe.

Panzer_Zwei

Do you have a source to back up that statement? I was always under the impression that the SNES eventually outsold the Mega Drive/Genesis in all three regions (although sales in North America were extremely close).

The Mega Drive was also the most popular system in South America, and if I remember correctly, with an even more drastic market share % than in Europe.

Only printed material. I think wikipedia or SEGA-16 had something on how the SFC never managed to outsell the MD in the UK, which is the biggest video game market in Europe. But it's pretty much common knowledge that the MD was the big system. Actually it was pretty obvious to notice if you lived in Europe.

Panzer_Zwei

I just don't think that's possible and here's my logic: Worldwide, the SNES sold approximately 50 million units and the Mega Drive sold approximately 30 million. Sale numbers in North America were nearly identical. If Europe bought more Mega Drives, there would have to be a difference of over 20 million between the two in Japan. That's impossible because there weren't even 20 million SNES consoles sold in Japan. Also, the contribution from other markets is so small that I don't think they could have made a significant impact.

[QUOTE="Panzer_Zwei"]

Only printed material. I think wikipedia or SEGA-16 had something on how the SFC never managed to outsell the MD in the UK, which is the biggest video game market in Europe. But it's pretty much common knowledge that the MD was the big system. Actually it was pretty obvious to notice if you lived in Europe.

Rocky32189

I just don't think that's possible and here's my logic: Worldwide, the SNES sold approximately 50 million units and the Mega Drive sold approximately 30 million. Sale numbers in North America were nearly identical. If Europe bought more Mega Drives, there would have to be a difference of over 20 million between the two in Japan. That's impossible because there weren't even 20 million SNES consoles sold in Japan. Also, the contribution from other markets is so small that I don't think they could have made a significant impact.

According to wikipedia the SFC sold 10 million more units in North America, so you can't say sales were identical. But I'll take that with a grain of salt. Last time I checked, the MD total sales were 24 million, now it's 29.

But by following wikipedia's numbers, beetwen the US and Japan, they covered 40+ of the 50 million SFC units sold worldwide. That would only leave less than 10 million to account from the rest of the world. And I'm beyond certain the MD sold more than 10 million units in Europe.

Also, something important to notice is that unlike the SFC that only had a single variant of the system (and a redesign of the same), the Mega Drive had various model variants that offered MD playability, such as the Multi-Mega, Wonder Mega, Nomad etc. And the sales numbers of those systems don't count towards the total numbers of MD units sold, in spite of offering MD playability. And although their inidividual sales numbers can be considered weak, combined they would at least add a million or two to the sales numbers. The nomad alone sold more than a million for example.

Yep the Sega Genesis was known for it's add ons. The SegaCD and 32X and The 8 bit Master converter are the offical Add on's.

[QUOTE="Panzer_Zwei"]

Only printed material. I think wikipedia or SEGA-16 had something on how the SFC never managed to outsell the MD in the UK, which is the biggest video game market in Europe. But it's pretty much common knowledge that the MD was the big system. Actually it was pretty obvious to notice if you lived in Europe.

Rocky32189

I just don't think that's possible and here's my logic: Worldwide, the SNES sold approximately 50 million units and the Mega Drive sold approximately 30 million. Sale numbers in North America were nearly identical. If Europe bought more Mega Drives, there would have to be a difference of over 20 million between the two in Japan. That's impossible because there weren't even 20 million SNES consoles sold in Japan. Also, the contribution from other markets is so small that I don't think they could have made a significant impact.

[QUOTE="clsmithj"]

Knuckles Chaotics is not a very good game to use as an argument in talking about 3D graphic power of the 32X as that game was and still is a 2D platformer game. Games like Virtua Racing Deluxe, Doom, and Virtua Fighter were true 3D games for the 32X.

Also why on earth are you comparing Snatcher with DKC which are two entirely different games. DKC is a side scrolling adventure like Sonic the Hedgehog which in my opinon is miles ahead of DKC, in fact the whole idea of controlling both Donkey and Diddy Kong was an idea stolen from Sonic 2 with Sonic and Tails.

Overall in the discussion of the Mega Drive successes and failures, its important to note that the Mega Drive was a complete failure in other countries outside of the United States. Sega of Japan had not made any market share gains with the Mega Drive, just as they didn't make any gains with their prior system the Mark III over Nintendo's popular Famicom and Super Famicom.

Most of the success and appraisal that Sega got and still get thanks to some of us old Sega gamers that remember it was based in large parts to the Japanese company giving Sega of America full control of marketing the Mega Drive. It is the American market, that birth the radical marketing of the Sega Genesis that SoA execs help choreograph that elevated Sega from small game company in 1989 to a dominating organization in the early 90s. I kid you not folks, if you look up the console war from the 1990s Sega vs Nintendo on your university's electronic library resource journals you will find many articles that headlines the hey day successes Sega of America had in those times.

Sega actually had a 65% market share on the gaming industry in 1993, when it was marketing the Sega Genesis, Game Gear and Sega CD, against SNES, NeoGeo, and 3DO.

It was 1994 that became the year that Nintendo began pushing back harder and getting tougher in their marketing to try to shift the momentum.

I think it was 1995 the year Sega's market share fall rapidly, as they shifted focus from 16-bit to 32-bit push and pushed out the Sega Saturn way to early. while not providing any backward compatibility to their previous console (I still don't get why the Saturn's cartridge port didn't support a Genesis/32x cart :x), secondly the whole vibe that made Sega a big hit during the 16-bit era "WELCOME TO THE NEXT LEVEL", the anti-Nintendo ads, where they would go after Nintendo at every turn had ceased.

It's safe to say now that their next foe SONY was way out Sega's lead.

I know now from reading that interview that the former Sega of America President Michael Katz did with Sega 16 is that things began to fall apart for Sega around the Saturn launch was due to the parent Sega of Japan demanding more control of their satelite regions.

Panzer_Zwei

And what did you expect SoA to say? It's not like they are gonna admit it was them who screwed up big time and alienated everybody. It wasn't SoJ who didn't even notified retailers about the launch date of the system in their region.

SoA/E totally messed up the Saturn in the West, and they also messed big time again with the Dreamcast. Also all the "rad" attitude and ads you're mentioned were a thing of the western divisions, that did not exist in Japan.

Also you are wrong about that SoA made SEGA a big gaming company. It was their Arcade smash hits that made the developing of their consoles possible in the first place. SEGA was the biggest Arcade company in the 80's already. Their home division, including the Mega Drive, never came nowhere close to the success they had on the Arcades.

but it was SoJ that decided to kill the Genesis and advanced the Saturn because the Mega Drive was a failure in their territory and they wanted to get ahead of Nintendo where they were at. While the exact opposite was happening in the North American terrirtory, where Sega was running circles around Nintendo.

I think killing Genesis in the middle of it's 16-bit war with SNES was a stupid move that was a decision that came top-down from SoJ.

but it was SoJ that decided to kill the Genesis and advanced the Saturn because the Mega Drive was a failure in their territory and they wanted to get ahead of Nintendo where they were at. While the exact opposite was happening in the North American terrirtory, where Sega was running circles around Nintendo.

I think killing Genesis in the middle of it's 16-bit war with SNES was a stupid move that was a decision that came top-down from SoJ.

clsmithj

And 1994 wasn't the middle of the 16-bit war, it was the end. 3 of the 4 fifth generation systems were released in late 1994. The MD was already 6 years old when the Saturn came out, and not even the SFC was supported for more than 6 years. And lastly, the Japanese market was a whole lot more relevant during those days, because your popularity in the market pretty much conditioned the third party support you were getting. The MD started lacking third party support compared to the SFC because the MD just wasn't popular in Japan.

[QUOTE="Panzer_Zwei"]

Wrong, the Mega Drive was the most successful 16-bit system in Europe.

Rocky32189

Do you have a source to back up that statement? I was always under the impression that the SNES eventually outsold the Mega Drive/Genesis in all three regions (although sales in North America were extremely close).

[QUOTE="clsmithj"]

but it was SoJ that decided to kill the Genesis and advanced the Saturn because the Mega Drive was a failure in their territory and they wanted to get ahead of Nintendo where they were at. While the exact opposite was happening in the North American terrirtory, where Sega was running circles around Nintendo.

I think killing Genesis in the middle of it's 16-bit war with SNES was a stupid move that was a decision that came top-down from SoJ.

Panzer_Zwei

And 1994 wasn't the middle of the 16-bit war, it was the end. 3 of the 4 fifth generation systems were released in late 1994. The MD was already 6 years old when the Saturn came out, and not even the SFC was supported for more than 6 years. And lastly, the Japanese market was a whole lot more relevant during those days, because your popularity in the market pretty much conditioned the third party support you were getting. The MD started lacking third party support compared to the SFC because the MD just wasn't popular in Japan.

But didnt games like Contra and Castlevania, previously Nintendo games start coming to the MD then? Also, the MD was still popular in NA in 1994, so why didnt JP devs consider that?

FirstDiscovery

But We're just going in circles in this point. The MD was already 6 years old by 1994. It was the natural end of it's lifespan, I don't know why you think the MD could have keep on being supported for longer, it just isn't realistic. Even the SFC didn't get past it's 6th years.

But all this comes from your misperception that the system was still popular by 1994, when in reality it was at the lowest of it's popularity. So I hope this clears the issue once and for all.

[QUOTE="FirstDiscovery"]

But didnt games like Contra and Castlevania, previously Nintendo games start coming to the MD then? Also, the MD was still popular in NA in 1994, so why didnt JP devs consider that?

Panzer_Zwei

But We're just going in circles in this point. The MD was already 6 years old by 1994. It was the natural end of it's lifespan, I don't know why you think the MD could have keep on being supported for longer, it just isn't realistic. Even the SFC didn't get past it's 6th years.

But all this comes from your misperception that the system was still popular by 1994, when in reality it was at the lowest of it's popularity. So I hope this clears the issue once and for all.

Okay fine ill take your word and end it here, but again, as developer you cant just ignore the millions of people with MDs? I mean the SNES made a comeback mainly because Nintendo really ramped up their first party, could Sega have done the same?

FirstDiscovery

You say SEGA could have ramped up their first party to keep the system going, SEGA being an Arcade company at heart. Look at Virtua Fighter on the MD, you think that could have continued? Releasing Daytona USA, Virtual-ON Fighting Vipers etc. on the MD? It was time to move forward because the system was just plain outdated by that time. Even if the MD would still had been popular by 1994, they would still had to move on to another system.

[QUOTE="FirstDiscovery"]

Okay fine ill take your word and end it here, but again, as developer you cant just ignore the millions of people with MDs? I mean the SNES made a comeback mainly because Nintendo really ramped up their first party, could Sega have done the same?

Panzer_Zwei

You say SEGA could have ramped up their first party to keep the system going, SEGA being an Arcade company at heart. Look at Virtua Fighter on the MD, you think that could have continued? Releasing Daytona USA, Virtual-ON Fighting Vipers etc. on the MD? It was time to move forward because the system was just plain outdated by that time. Even if the MD would still had been popular by 1994, they would still had to move on to another system.

[QUOTE="Panzer_Zwei"]

[QUOTE="FirstDiscovery"]

Okay fine ill take your word and end it here, but again, as developer you cant just ignore the millions of people with MDs? I mean the SNES made a comeback mainly because Nintendo really ramped up their first party, could Sega have done the same?

FirstDiscovery

You say SEGA could have ramped up their first party to keep the system going, SEGA being an Arcade company at heart. Look at Virtua Fighter on the MD, you think that could have continued? Releasing Daytona USA, Virtual-ON Fighting Vipers etc. on the MD? It was time to move forward because the system was just plain outdated by that time. Even if the MD would still had been popular by 1994, they would still had to move on to another system.

Also the SFC also had a lot of releases in 1995 you know, just like the MD in 1993, but it still was displaced the next year nonethless. It seems to me you're viewing both systesm from the timeline of the SFC, and not from the lifespan of the actual Mega Drive.

[QUOTE="clsmithj"]

but it was SoJ that decided to kill the Genesis and advanced the Saturn because the Mega Drive was a failure in their territory and they wanted to get ahead of Nintendo where they were at. While the exact opposite was happening in the North American terrirtory, where Sega was running circles around Nintendo.

I think killing Genesis in the middle of it's 16-bit war with SNES was a stupid move that was a decision that came top-down from SoJ.

Panzer_Zwei

And 1994 wasn't the middle of the 16-bit war, it was the end. 3 of the 4 fifth generation systems were released in late 1994. The MD was already 6 years old when the Saturn came out, and not even the SFC was supported for more than 6 years. And lastly, the Japanese market was a whole lot more relevant during those days, because your popularity in the market pretty much conditioned the third party support you were getting. The MD started lacking third party support compared to the SFC because the MD just wasn't popular in Japan.

1994, the Mega Drive might have been running out of steam over in Japan, where I actually read somewhere that it stood dead last behind the SFC and PCE, but I promise you that was not the case in the US. Heck I remember some top titles that came out at the end of '94 Sonic & Knuckles, MKII, Comix Zone, Super Street Fighter II. Heck I remember picking up MK3 for the Genesis in 1995. There were a lot of hit titles being made for the Sega CD and 32X at that time too, I remember picking up Eternal Champions CD that came out in 95. The 16-bit war only ended because Sega of Japan as the parent company discontinued the Genesis. Why they did it, because they were far behind in the Japan market, and they had no concern for the successes the Genesis made in the US. They saw a opening with Saturn in their terroritory and forced it upon everybody.

[QUOTE="Panzer_Zwei"]

[QUOTE="clsmithj"]

but it was SoJ that decided to kill the Genesis and advanced the Saturn because the Mega Drive was a failure in their territory and they wanted to get ahead of Nintendo where they were at. While the exact opposite was happening in the North American terrirtory, where Sega was running circles around Nintendo.

I think killing Genesis in the middle of it's 16-bit war with SNES was a stupid move that was a decision that came top-down from SoJ.

clsmithj

And 1994 wasn't the middle of the 16-bit war, it was the end. 3 of the 4 fifth generation systems were released in late 1994. The MD was already 6 years old when the Saturn came out, and not even the SFC was supported for more than 6 years. And lastly, the Japanese market was a whole lot more relevant during those days, because your popularity in the market pretty much conditioned the third party support you were getting. The MD started lacking third party support compared to the SFC because the MD just wasn't popular in Japan.

1994, the Mega Drive might have been running out of steam over in Japan, where I actually read somewhere that it stood dead last behind the SFC and PCE, but I promise you that was not the case in the US. Heck I remember some top titles that came out at the end of '94 Sonic & Knuckles, MKII, Comix Zone, Super Street Fighter II. Heck I remember picking up MK3 for the Genesis in 1995. There were a lot of hit titles being made for the Sega CD and 32X at that time too, I remember picking up Eternal Champions CD that came out in 95. The 16-bit war only ended because Sega of Japan as the parent company discontinued the Genesis. Why they did it, because they were far behind in the Japan market, and they had no concern for the successes the Genesis made in the US. They saw a opening with Saturn in their terroritory and forced it upon everybody.

And for some reason you seem to believe that SEGA should had been the only company in history that should have stuck with their 6 year-old outdated system instead of releasing their next-gen hardware. The SFC was successful and still Nintendo released the N64 within 6 years. The PS was even more succesful and Sony released the PS2 after 6 years. So why according to you SEGA had to be the exception? The Saturn had to come out regardless of the current popularity of the Mega Drive. It was a necessity as much as a disare.

And you're given the "parent" division too much credit. If SoJ had as much leverage on the home division as you seem to think, they wouldn't had let SoA came out with the 32X, mess up big time with the Saturn, pull the plug and disconinue the Dreamcast after having messed up totally, refuse to accept another SEGA console, hiring sub-par third party studios to run cla$$ic SEGA franchises through the mud. and etc. etc. That is the reality of SEGA of America.

[QUOTE="FirstDiscovery"][QUOTE="Panzer_Zwei"]You're still not getting it. Going by that logic, Nintendo abandonded millions of SFC owners because they released the N64 in 1996, you know 6 years after the SFC release, just like SEGA did with the Saturn. And what comeback did they made? Just what hits Nintendo released for the SFC in 1997? None that I can think of. They moved on, just like everyone else, because they had to. Technology moves forward.

You say SEGA could have ramped up their first party to keep the system going, SEGA being an Arcade company at heart. Look at Virtua Fighter on the MD, you think that could have continued? Releasing Daytona USA, Virtual-ON Fighting Vipers etc. on the MD? It was time to move forward because the system was just plain outdated by that time. Even if the MD would still had been popular by 1994, they would still had to move on to another system.

Panzer_Zwei

Also the SFC also had a lot of releases in 1995 you know, just like the MD in 1993, but it still was displaced the next year nonethless. It seems to me you're viewing both systesm from the timeline of the SFC, and not from the lifespan of the actual Mega Drive.

Okay fair enough, but i think the SFC died in 95/96 mainly because the PSone and Saturn were in full swing

FirstDiscovery

When Sonic 2 came out in 1992 (during the 4 year of the system) the Mega Drive was the undisputed market leader in North America. You can compare the success of SEGA with Sonic 2, to that of Nintendo with DKC, both smash hit games that marked the fourth year of their respective systems. But you can't say that SEGA is to blame for quitting the 16-bit race by releasing the Saturn, when you aren't applying the same logic to Nintendo who did the same thing and released the N64 6 years after the N64. Lets see where the SFC was in 1996, and then compare it to where the MD was in 1994, and you will clearly see the reality of who performed best.

The fact of the matter is that the Mega Drive is not given enough credit, because most people don't realise that it was an older system, and that managing to do what it did on those late years was a hell of an achievment. Like I've mentioned already in this post, in reality the MD was supported longer than the SFC. In 1994 (the year that we consider the final year) The system got fewer yes, but still a lot of important releases. How many did the SFC got in 1996? In 1995 the MD still got Comix Zone, Ristar and a couple more AAA first-party games. What did Nintendo released for the SFC in 1997? I wanna know?

The problem I say it again, is that you're not judging both systems on equal terms. You are judging both systems from the timeline of the SFC, and expected the MD to do and live the same time, even though it was released two years earlier.

And just to finish my part on this post, I feel I have to remind that as much as Nintendo fans dislike the idea, it was SEGA who dominated most of the 16-bit generation, despite of how many more consoles Nintendo went and sold later when all of the next-generation systems where released. It was SEGA and their Mega Drive who dominated the generation. You can dislike the idea as much as you want, but it won't change the reality of the matter.

[QUOTE="FirstDiscovery"]

Okay fair enough, but i think the SFC died in 95/96 mainly because the PSone and Saturn were in full swing

Panzer_Zwei

When Sonic 2 came out in 1992 (during the 4 year of the system) the Mega Drive was the undisputed market leader in North America. You can compare the success of SEGA with Sonic 2, to that of Nintendo with DKC, both smash hit games that marked the fourth year of their respective systems. But you can't say that SEGA is to blame for quitting the 16-bit race by releasing the Saturn, when you aren't applying the same logic to Nintendo who did the same thing and released the N64 6 years after the N64. Lets see where the SFC was in 1996, and then compare it to where the MD was in 1994, and you will clearly see the reality of who performed best.

The fact of the matter is that the Mega Drive is not given enough credit, because most people don't realise that it was an older system, and that managing to do what it did on those late years was a hell of an achievment. Like I've mentioned already in this post, in reality the MD was supported longer than the SFC. In 1994 (the year that we consider the final year) The system got fewer yes, but still a lot of important releases. How many did the SFC got in 1996? In 1995 the MD still got Comix Zone, Ristar and a couple more AAA first-party games. What did Nintendo released for the SFC in 1997? I wanna know?

The problem I say it again, is that you're not judging both systems on equal terms. You are judging both systems from the timeline of the SFC, and expected the MD to do and live the same time, even though it was released two years earlier.

And just to finish my part on this post, I feel I have to remind that as much as Nintendo fans dislike the idea, it was SEGA who dominated most of the 16-bit generation, despite of how many more consoles Nintendo went and sold later when all of the next-generation systems where released. It was SEGA and their Mega Drive who dominated the generation. You can dislike the idea as much as you want, but it won't change the reality of the matter.

My main point is that even with games coming out and why is it that Sega of Japan decided to drop the system. Again im going to have to refer to Eidolons Inn, but stopping production of the system proved to be a little silly given how the Genesis 3 which came out late in the 90s went onto sell more than a million units (i cant remember if it was just the Gen 3 or it included those stripped down systems with built in games). And im guessing software and hardware sales couldnt have been THAT bad in 1994 given how 93 was very strong? I simply think that it was a case of a few mishaps SUCH as spreading themselves thin over two add-ons and the fact that the Saturn plans were being given FAR to much priority.

How many did the SFC got in 1996? In 1995 the MD still got Comix Zone, Ristar and a couple more AAA first-party games. What did Nintendo released for the SFC in 1997? I wanna know?

Panzer_Zwei

In 1996 Nintendo released Donkey Kong Country 3 and Super Mario RPG. In 1997 they released Kirby's Dreamland 3.

My main point is that even with games coming out and why is it that Sega of Japan decided to drop the system. Again im going to have to refer to Eidolons Inn, but stopping production of the system proved to be a little silly given how the Genesis 3 which came out late in the 90s went onto sell more than a million units (i cant remember if it was just the Gen 3 or it included those stripped down systems with built in games). And im guessing software and hardware sales couldnt have been THAT bad in 1994 given how 93 was very strong? I simply think that it was a case of a few mishaps SUCH as spreading themselves thin over two add-ons and the fact that the Saturn plans were being given FAR to much priority.

FirstDiscovery

The decision of the Japanese division stopping production of a system that just wasn't selling in their region, was just their own. It was up to every regional division to stop production of the systems when they saw it fit. Despite what the TC thinks, the Japanese division to this day doesn't have enough influence to overpower the other divisions. It is false that the Japanese division could order the other division to stop the MD production, in fact they didn't. You think the MD stopped being manufactured in Europe in 1994? It outlasted the SFC.

But lets also not forget the priorities of the real bigger ups(the Arcade division). SEGA just had to profit from porting their Arcade hits home, or it would be a big waste. And the just wasn't longer fit for the task.

[QUOTE="Panzer_Zwei"]

How many did the SFC got in 1996? In 1995 the MD still got Comix Zone, Ristar and a couple more AAA first-party games. What did Nintendo released for the SFC in 1997? I wanna know?

Rocky32189

In 1996 Nintendo released Donkey Kong Country 3 and Super Mario RPG. In 1997 they released Kirby's Dreamland 3.

• Shadowrun
• Eternal Champions
• Bare Knuckle 3
• The Story of Thor
• Dynamite Headdy
• Pulseman
• The Hybrid Front
• Shining Force CD (Mega CD)
• Sonic the Hedgehog 3
• Sonic & Knuckles
  
• Ragnacenty
• Monster World IV
• Mega Bomberman
• Ecco: The Tides of Time
  

"What did Nintendo released for the SFC in 1997? I wanna know?" -Panzer_Zwei I could be wrong, but a quick look over Wikipedia says that Harvest Moon came out in 1997 (NA), Lost Vikings 2, and Kirby's Dreamland 3 looks like it came out in 1998. Not to mention that Nintendo released the Super Famicom Jr. in 1997 as well in Japan and North America. KronikX9

in 1995 SEGA released (Partial):

• Comix Zone
• Alien Soldier
• Vectorman
• Ristar: The Shooting Star
• The Adventures of Batman & Robin
• Pepenga Pengo

And in 1996 games like Vectorman 2 and Madou Monogatari were released.