Sexism in video games (explained simply)

I agree, but it was how I was raised. let me tell ya... I never held the door open for her again which saved me both time and effort (even if minimal).

Maybe that's the reason why Okami didn't do very well in release was because of sexism. Oh wait... I mean sure she's a dog but she's still a female lead. She's also strong, independent, non-sexualized, and story centric. Not to mention being bad ass enough to get both a sequel and cameo's in other games.

I usually feel that the sexism debate in games is often just an easy troll attempt that more often than not generates the loudest buzz from the most anonymous of individuals.

@DigitalDame: okami is a dog though. the game is referring to women as dogs - which is sexist and mean.

lol

1: Ok,i would care since for me there is no problem at all, there are plenty of female characters out there.

2: Hmm, ok you asked about who i meant. Again honestly i dont give a crap.

3: A game doesnt cost million, if anything i think the Kickstarter/indie movement has proven that, look at Gone Home you can be sure that didn´t even cost 100k So again i dont see why you and most feminist want the established developers/publisher to take a risk if you are not even willing to.

Why should EA, Activision, Rockstar, Blizzard, 2k cater to a minority? and you can take social responsibility and female common sense and throw it out with the bathwater, i dont give 5cents for those arguments.

Also please do not make this into a liberal vs conservative debate.

Still exists? So what you are saying is pretty much "what i perceive is correct and if you dont see it you are not "honest""

You can't consider this solely from your own perspective. There are more games with lead female characters.

Edit: well, you can really only consider from your own perspective, but I personally think you should first critically assess your own perspective before you make statements based on said perspective.

Tomb Raider, Remember Me, Mirrors edge, AC liberation, Mass Effect , Beyond, Heavy Rain to mention a few and there are more out there.

Who cares about some american talk show, i am european so honestly couldn´t give a cent for any talkshow host from the conservative party in the US :)

I do how play games and when someone has a fair amount of subs on youtube and are often refered to, it counts to me as a outspoken individual, not to mention Carolyn and Danny from gamespot.

@SEANMCAD:

Far as I know. The best answer to there should be more female protags in AAA games is. Sure....'when they feel like it.'

Because thats the best opportunity for a well rounded female protagonist Is when someone is dedicated to walking in their shoes. They're not a quota to fill but what a creator genuinely wants to explore. Some guys write guy leads because its easier for them to create an avatar that represents their experiences, identity ideas, curiosities and worldviews to the public at large.

For some writers and creative directors gender is a paper thin social construct....but not everybody.

Its better if everyone makes and sells what they WANT to play. If that coincidentally turns into a lot of lead dudes, and hot chicks, then you need different people with creative decision power to change that.

Honest people know that sexual objectification still persist in gaming; my perception notwithstanding. Even if there are attempts to portray women in more dignified roles, those who say sexism in gaming has ceased altogether are either naive or simply lying.

You could also put some effort in it and do a simple google search. That's what I meant with critically assessing your own perspective: testing whether your observations (about there being only one game with a female lead character for example) are actually reasonable before you make statements. I never said anything about being subjective or objective. That has nothing to do with perspective.

hmmmm... of the top of my head (though they could be considered "sexist" games)

p.n.03

bayonetta

mirrors edge

tomb raider

heavenly sword

resident evil 2 (claire)

fatal frame

edit: looks like I was beat on tomb raider and mirrors edge.

When you imply to be objective and you use the argument "I know of only one game where there is a lead female character....one" to point out that there are very little games with female lead characters I am tempted to think you didn't put a lot of effort in your argument, which might make me sceptical about the validity of your opinion. This can be very counterproductive in discussions. There's no harm in taking a little time to question your own opinion or observations before you start convincing others, no matter how convinced you are. That's all I'm pointing out.

Are you implying that 40% of the people who play videogames (with a lead character) are women? Could you please provide proof? If you want to refer to that ESA report about videogames: that report sadly doesn't make gender distinctions when it comes to genres and also includes games that do not involve lead characters of any kind.

But to answer your question: no. Should 40% of story driven games have a lead female character? And if so, why? And there's no harm in considering the opposite answer: if not, why not?

Honest people with a bit of intelligence also knows that objectification goes both ways and is a very natural behaviour among the human species, its even how most find partners. Women do it and Men do it, funny enough its mostly less than attractive women who feels that this is a problem.

So sexism in that negative form you put it does not exist unless you actually perceive it as such.

I always wanted to use this clip for these "Sexism in video games" discussions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GB9gEwuno0#t=1h2m27s

Women have been creating games that portray men as sex objects? Man...you learn something new everyday.

Please. I beg of you. Stop. Stop being a whiney cry baby. Boo hoo hoo. Nobody gets exactly what they want in this world. No one's ideas are completely prevalent in society. Just suck it up and stop the damn belly aching. There are people in this world that are getting their arms chopped off. SHUT UP.

I have a hard time understanding WTH you're trying to ask with the first question. As I said, sexualization isn't a big problem for me, it's the lack of strong female characters. I don't neccessarily have a problem with strip clubs as long as the women working their is okay with it. It's their body and they can do what they want with it. If a woman want to be sexy then go ahead, I like sexy women, but when they are forced it's a problem.

I think it is also important to look at not only why there are not as many female leads as male ones, but also look at why there aren't many enduring female characters.

Men on the whole are more charismatic then women. Wittier, suaver, more wordly. Simply because looks don't get men by as much so they need something else (and the aforementioned are the traits they hone)

The upshot is that in life and in media you have more enigmatic male characters than female ones. Think of characters that have an almost magnetic influence over screen time in any media and they are almost always inevitably male; Nathan Drake, Tony Stark, Tyrion Lanister, Jack Sparrow etc;

I can think of dozens of female characters who are leads in their own game, but I can't think of any that demand the kind of screen presence that a crowd of people will break into applause just at them appearing in a trailer (actually, I can, but they aren't leads in their game).

In fact the only thing a lot of female characters have going for them is being 'strong, tough and independent' which is boring because in men speak that is 'ordinary, par for course and trite', not something special. Would Tyrion Lanister be a fan favourite if 'strong, tough and independent' was all he had going for him? Probably not.

So why do developers approach female characters as if their character starts and ends with those traits? I do think this problem ultimately circles back to real-life. Women just aren't as charismatic as men on average. They use humour socially amongst audiences that are predisposed to laugh at their (terrible) jokes, whereas men live in a world where they have to conquer hostile audiences through character...so their jokes better be pretty damn good to win those audiences over.

The above is dealing mostly with wit and humour but the same can be said of almost any character trait that makes a character charismatic and enigmatic.

Anyway, the point is that most female characters that people point to as 'good examples' tend to be dull, dull, dull. So it's not wonder they don't become part of an enduring franchise; they are interchangeable.

Fair enough. Although I fear that most big games are only indirectly male oriented, because they're market oriented. So I'm not sure you can expect the big developers to take chances in that regard (unless they're absolutely sure there's a huge untapped market). It's hard enough to make a profitable game as it is. If the majority doesn't care and you risk losing a minority of gamers by using a female lead (without a serious indication that that minority is going to be compensated by an alternative one), you're going for a male lead. It's sadly as simple as that.

That said, I'm all for men taking a bit of responsibility and trying to actively create a welcome environment for women, so that the potential untapped market might actually be created. But that's a very risky undertaking and in that sense I understand @Jacanuk's point that it might be more productive and fruitful to actually create something yourself (or try to find people who are willing to work with you on that), instead of just criticising. I'm afraid criticising or pointing out sexism isn't going to solve the problem. In fact, it might make things worse, especially when the argument is one-sided.

The thing I find most interesting is that male and female sexism in videogames is somehow seen as catering to the majority group of male gamers. I'm sure sales figures or the measurable ways games are played might show a pattern, but to then assume that that pattern shows what people want is another step (it could also be laziness; it could be a lack of other options, it could be pre-release marketing). When I look at a lot of comments on the internet, it appears that most male gamers don't really care if more lead characters were to become female and/or less sexualised (although most of them often assume that most men do care). They mostly seem annoyed by the idea that they're being portrayed as sexist by critics. For as far as I can judge, it seems that the people who play games purely for their gameplay elements shouldn't really care about the characters and the people who value characters and story appear to be mostly positive or at least indifferent about character variety. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe most men don't want to play female characters and maybe they want to primarily play muscled male soldiers...

Personally I can't really justify why a lot of women and men are portrayed the way they are in videogames. It's not something I want. It's not part of some fantasy. I surely wouldn't miss it. I see it mostly as an obstacle when I try to explain why I play videogames and why videogames are so great. You still see the same sexism in films, but film has the advantage of variety in characters and markets. Games also have a tendency, like cartoons, to exaggerate character portrayals and design, which makes sexism much more obvious.

Sorry for the long text.

This is a very sensitive topic for some people. It's like most topics can be discussed rationally and maturely, but then when sexism is brought up, and the majority of people on here act like a goose hissing when you step too close to its eggs.

People feel threatened by sensitive topics like sexism. They're afraid of change and decides to just ignore reason and defend themselves so they can keep their petty games sexist.

Those who react to the topics of racism and sexism with such vehement opposition are nothing more than dishonest people. Some just lie to themselves by suggesting that the problems don't really exist and everything's fine - like a member of a dysfunctional family. I often find that the deniers actually prefer the status quo and want to maintain it by rejecting the concept that such problems are an issue.

I've never looked at any games in this way. Some games like GTA have specific atmosphere and it is essential element of it. However, I don't think it can really harm anyone. It's not a real world.

I sympathise with your point, but I don't think change is to be expected from the large publishers. The "large opportunity" you mention is simply too vague and risky for publishers. But I agree that a lot of people take the criticism a little bit too personally and react to it too passionately. A lot of people desire a more general acceptance of videogames; they want games to be taken more seriously. And I really think being a little bit more understanding and flexible when it comes to male and female depictions could help with that.

I asked if sexism exists in videogames despite what the player/creator thinks? Anyways good so now you are aware that there is no sexism in videogames since noone is forced, the characters in videos is a representation of the artist , and we can hopefully all agree that the artist is or should not be forced to remove/alter his/her creation just because you, me, Anita Sarkislongassname or anyone else doesn't like it.

You are mistaken. People don't feel anything about Sexism since its a topic that only exist for a certain type of person.

But what people do however feel "threatened" by is when a minority starts to become a deciding factor in how the majority should live just because the topic involves political correctness.

I don't think you understand what sexism is, and I never said anything about removing or altering creations. My comment about strip clubs is not relevant because we are discussing sexism in video games and not strip clubs.

Civil, racial and gay rights is also only topics that exists for certain persons if we use your logic. White people don't feel anything about racism against black people, it's an issue for them not us, so why should we change things for them? See how your logic is faulty?

And if you think women are such a small minority in the video game community you're wrong, just take a look at the last few years figures.

The vast majority of game narratives are violence driven. We live in a culture where we're just now starting to consider the idea of using women on the frontlines of combat. So it stands to reason that in this cultural climate, violence driven narratives would tend to have male leads.

People in here are comparing videogame narratives to movie narratives, and that's just problematic. Movie narratives have a wide range of stories. Instead, let's compare videogames to action movies alone and I'm sure you'll note that most action movies have male leads. In fact, by this standard, games are actually more progressive.

If we start talking about the minority of videogames that aren't violent driven narratives like puzzle games and adventure games, you'll find tons of female leads...Take the Longest Journey that has two lead characters, both female. Take Syberia...Take Portal in which both protagonist AND antagonist are female (yes, glados is an AI, but it's definitely a female voice)...Gone Home, Beyond: Two Souls, etc. The problem right now isn't so much sexism as it is viable role shortage. We're not used to thinking of women as purveyors of violence and so long as our games remain violence focused, women leads just aren't going to have the same presence.

I'm not much of a writer myself, but this is something that my writer friends (who are also female) struggle with. To paraphrase what they've said on the matter, "It's just easier when you're writing a guy in those roles. You can beat the crap out of him on one page, and on the next page you can have him beat the crap out of the guy who attacked him a page before. And no one's going to have a problem with it. These guys are having a fight: everyone gets that. No one misses the point, no one sees more than there is. It all gets a lot trickier when women enter the mix. If it's male/female violence regardless of the perpetrator, even if you're clear to present them as physical equals, it may bring unwanted baggage to a scene that you as a writer didn't intend, but still have to consider the impact of if you want to write effectively. It's hard to be effective when you're "triggering" your audience constantly. Likewise it's hard not to either fetishize or fall into certain stereotypes if it's woman on woman violence.

It's not that we don't want to represent our own gender when it comes to this subject matter, but there are challenges when compared to writing men. Frankly it's often not worth the trouble."

First lets keep things that are not really the same separate, Sexism is games is not comparable or even in the same ballpark as racism, civil rights or hate/bashing based on sexuality. So please at least try to keep focus.

Who gave you the voice to speak for all women? i know a lot of female gamers who disagree and laugh at people that hold the feminist banner high or talks about sexism in games and runs around yelling "Men and women are 100% equal" and free bleeding. But what i said was that it's a minority of all gamers (meaning both men and women) who are stupid enough to see "sexism" as a problem or even a concern in video games.

Also its kinda makes me wish games would be considered art, because then that debate would be over and done with, because who gives anyone right to tell a artist how to make is art?

But its a free world so if anyone thinks that a game needs more female leads, more gay leads, more black leads, more yellow leads, more whatever or less "sexism", its not that hard to put up a crow-funding page and make your own game or find backers, im sure the feminist movement will be glad to post some cash into a real game that fights for womens right.

Another question , you said its fine as long as noone is forced? so please explain how what you perceive as sexism in games is forced? are you forced to play the games? are anyone forced to create the games?

@Ish_basic: I think your observation that the majority of videogames under the magnifying glass are analogous to the action-movie genre is very astute.

Come to think of it many RPGs tend to have female leads as well because their stories allow it; they are normally focused around a party of adventurers so it sometimes isn't hard to write the lead as female.

Of the top of my head: Estelle (Trails in the Sky), Lenneth (Valkyrie Profile), Shion (Xenosaga), Lightning (FFXIII), Serah (FFXIII-2), Terra (FFVI), Eva (Parasite Eve), Narumi (12Riven), Ashley (Another Code), pretty much all the leads in the Fatal Frame games.

These are also areas where the characters don't fall into the whole 'tough, strong independent' schtick which is more overdone than damsels in distress in modern gaming.

I've made the point before (but not as well as you did) that if you want more female characters you need to diversify the roles a protagonist can play. And to do that you need more types of games.

edit: Now I think about it Estelle is one of the few female leads I can think of who does command screen presence. Pretty rare though.

I wish all the popular youtube intellectual game critics acknowledged stuff like this regarding action adventure in general. Our popular perception of action influences what the games are going to end up like.

Instead of dumping so quickly on action game narrative for not being grounded or politically correct enough. How come they don't stop and consider the thousands of disjointed action movie plots in movies that folks overlooked, because the action set-pieces were cool, but still lacked better character representation or human grounding.

Sexism is not forced in video games, I was talking about the strip clubs regarding being forced. The problem with video games is that there's almost no strong, independent, female characters. Women in video games are usually just non-important NPCs being used as fillers, and if they are important they need a man or someone else to keep them strong. I'm not saying that we have to stop with those tropes, but it would be great if we could use them less and create more strong females. I'd like more characters like Lara Croft and femshep.