The first game that gave you the WOW factor?

[QUOTE="Jakandsigz"][QUOTE="Jag85"] FFVII was groundbreaking no matter what age you were when it came out... It was that moment when countless gamers came to the realization that "RPG" doesn't just mean a rocket-propelled grenade.Byshop

Yeah, I kind of have to agree with this. While FF7 was one of my all time favorite games, I wouldn't exactly call it "mind blowing" or having that "wow" factor because from a technological standpoint it wasn't that impressive. This was in an era where some PS1 games already had full voice acting (albeit no games that were nearly as comprehensive as FF7) and the super deformed characters felt like a step backwards. Additionally, I was coming off of PC WRPGs like Baldur's Gate and before that I grew up on the SSI Goldbox games like Pools of Radiance, Azure Bonds, Silver Blades and Pools of Darkness as well as games that rivaled the complexity of games like Oblivion and Skyrim in 2D graphics like Ultima 7. These games allowed for complete, open world exploration.

When I started FF7, my first reaction was "what is this primitive, linear crap?" since the first hour or so of the game is spent running down hallways and getting into fights (you know, like how FF13 is for the ENTIRE GAME :roll: ). Before I got past the first reactor, I put the game down and promptly forgot about it. It wasn't until months later that I picked it up again and gave it the time that it deserved that I realized that there was a lot more to this game and world than I had initially given it credit for. The more I played, the larger the game turned out to be.

It's the epic scope of the world and the quality of the narrative that really makes FF7 shine, but that's not something you can exactly -see- just by playing it for a bit. So while eventually it turned out to be one of my favorite games, there really wasn't that up front "wow" factor that I got with some other titles.

-Byshop

In other words, you played Baldur's Gate, a game that released at the very end of 1998, before FFVII... which means you didn't actually play FFVII until 1999, some two years after its originally release... If that's the case, then I'm not surprised at all if you didn't see the "WOW" factor.

If you played FFVII when it first came out in 1997, then I'm pretty sure it would have been a different story. The production values were a huge step up from every RPG that had come before it, whether on PC or console. Just months before playing FFVII, I remember playing several PC RPG's like Diablo and Lands of Lore II (the latter itself having high production values compared to other RPG's at the time), and yet the production values of FFVII still blew them away.

FFVII's $45 million budget was huge for its time, and it shows. The CGI cut-scenes in FFVII were some of the best I had seen up until that time, almost like Toy Story quality CGI in a video game. And the way the CGI blended into the real-time graphics also looked impressive. And of course, the pre-rendered art design also looked incredible. Even the real-time 3D graphics in the battles also looked impressive for a PS1 game. The only down-side was the lego-like field character models on the field, which stood out like a sore thumb compared to the high-quality pre-rendered backdrops and the battle 3D graphics.

Anyway, like you said, what ultimately made FFVII memorable for many gamers wasn't necessarily the "WOW" factor of the production values (which already stated to look dated several years later), but the "epic scope of the world and the quality of the narrative".

i may have only been 4 or 5 but i was also accustomed to computer games, the jawdropper at the time was quake but ff7 had a bigger budget and had more variation in artistic design. quake didn't wow me, it just seemed like a logical progression from the doom series.tab134

LOL. I was old enough to drink when FF7 came out so I'd been gaming on PC for quite a while by that point.

I'm not saying the game wasn't awesome, in the end. The art design grew on me, even though I wasn't a fan (and still am not) of super-deformed characters.

That's great that you were playing PC games, but what -kind- of games were you playing? To be clear, Quake is -not- what I'm comparing this to.

This game, Ultima 7, was a 2d WRPG that I was playing on PC beforehand. No, it doesn't have nearly the artistic level of something like FF7, but it came out a full 5 years before FF7 and it rivaled games like Oblivion in terms of complexity. Each character in the game had a "life" that went on regardless of whether you were there to see it happen or not. They had a home, a job, they'd eat meals, clean their house, sleep, get pissed at you when you steal, etc. If you wanted to talk to someone, you had to be aware of what time it was because that determined where they would be (they wouldn't be home in bed at 11AM, for example). This kind of stuff impressed me and mattered to me when it was absent from subsequent games.

The same thing goes for games like the original Fallout. VERY open, non-linear play your own way RPG in which you built your character from the ground up to be whomever you wanted to be. This game world was CRAZY detailed and you could choose to be a good guy or literally murder everyone you encounter (you could murder entire towns, if you choose to and had the skills/equipment to do it without dying). The game placed pretty much no restrictions on what you could do.

And games like Ultima Underworld, which was the first non-grid based FPS RPG (early precursor to the first Elder Scrolls game).

Now I'm not saying any of these games are better than FF7, but the level of complexity and freedom they offered was something I had become accustomed to playing on PC RPGs so making the transition to a linear JRPG was quite jarring at first.

-Byshop

[QUOTE="Byshop"]

[QUOTE="Jakandsigz"] On consoles.Jag85

Yeah, I kind of have to agree with this. While FF7 was one of my all time favorite games, I wouldn't exactly call it "mind blowing" or having that "wow" factor because from a technological standpoint it wasn't that impressive. This was in an era where some PS1 games already had full voice acting (albeit no games that were nearly as comprehensive as FF7) and the super deformed characters felt like a step backwards. Additionally, I was coming off of PC WRPGs like Baldur's Gate and before that I grew up on the SSI Goldbox games like Pools of Radiance, Azure Bonds, Silver Blades and Pools of Darkness as well as games that rivaled the complexity of games like Oblivion and Skyrim in 2D graphics like Ultima 7. These games allowed for complete, open world exploration.

When I started FF7, my first reaction was "what is this primitive, linear crap?" since the first hour or so of the game is spent running down hallways and getting into fights (you know, like how FF13 is for the ENTIRE GAME :roll: ). Before I got past the first reactor, I put the game down and promptly forgot about it. It wasn't until months later that I picked it up again and gave it the time that it deserved that I realized that there was a lot more to this game and world than I had initially given it credit for. The more I played, the larger the game turned out to be.

It's the epic scope of the world and the quality of the narrative that really makes FF7 shine, but that's not something you can exactly -see- just by playing it for a bit. So while eventually it turned out to be one of my favorite games, there really wasn't that up front "wow" factor that I got with some other titles.

-Byshop

In other words, you played Baldur's Gate, a game that released at the very end of 1998, before FFVII... which means you didn't actually play FFVII until 1999, some two years after its originally release... If that's the case, then I'm not surprised at all if you didn't see the "WOW" factor.

If you played FFVII when it first came out in 1997, then I'm pretty sure it would have been a different story. The production values were a huge step up from every RPG that had come before it, whether on PC or console. Just months before playing FFVII, I remember playing several PC RPG's like Diablo and Lands of Lore II (the latter itself having high production values compared to other RPG's at the time), and yet the production values of FFVII still blew them away.

FFVII's $45 million budget was huge for its time, and it shows. The CGI cut-scenes in FFVII were some of the best I had seen up until that time, almost like Toy Story quality CGI in a video game. And the way the CGI blended into the real-time graphics also looked impressive. And of course, the pre-rendered art design also looked incredible. Even the real-time 3D graphics in the battles also looked impressive for a PS1 game. The only down-side was the lego-like field character models on the field, which stood out like a sore thumb compared to the high-quality pre-rendered backdrops and the battle 3D graphics.

Anyway, like you said, what ultimately made FFVII memorable for many gamers wasn't necessarily the "WOW" factor of the production values (which already stated to look dated several years later), but the "epic scope of the world and the quality of the narrative".

In other words, you played Baldur's Gate, a game that released at the very end of 1998, before FFVII... which means you didn't actually play FFVII until 1999, some two years after its originally release... If that's the case, then I'm not surprised at all if you didn't see the "WOW" factor.

If you played FFVII when it first came out in 1997, then I'm pretty sure it would have been a different story. The production values were a huge step up from every RPG that had come before it, whether on PC or console. Just months before playing FFVII, I remember playing several PC RPG's like Diablo and Lands of Lore II (the latter itself having high production values compared to other RPG's at the time), and yet the production values of FFVII still blew them away.

FFVII's $45 million budget was huge for its time, and it shows. The CGI cut-scenes in FFVII were some of the best I had seen up until that time, almost like Toy Story quality CGI in a video game. And the way the CGI blended into the real-time graphics also looked impressive. And of course, the pre-rendered art design also looked incredible. Even the real-time 3D graphics in the battles also looked impressive for a PS1 game. The only down-side was the lego-like field character models on the field, which stood out like a sore thumb compared to the high-quality pre-rendered backdrops and the battle 3D graphics.

Anyway, like you said, what ultimately made FFVII memorable for many gamers wasn't necessarily the "WOW" factor of the production values (which already stated to look dated several years later), but the "epic scope of the world and the quality of the narrative".

Jag85

I did not play FF7 the day it came out, but it was within a year of it's release. I confess that I don't exactly remember the chronology since this was 15 years ago. Looking back I likely had played FF7 first, but there were many other games that I mentioned in my other post that did blow me away even years before FF7.

Initially, it felt like flash with no substance. The combat system seemed painfully simplistic compared to the 6 character party based D&D engine based battles against 20 enemies that I was used to. The CGI was cool, but only when it happened which was pretty infrequent. The total FMV in teh game when added together comes out to less than an hour of total footage in a game that lasts a minimum of 40 hours for most people.

Games that I was playing on PC years earlier included Wing Commander 3 and 4, which were fully voice (and actor) acted FMV by real Hollywood actors. They were also teh first real 3D space combat sims. THESE games blew me away from a technical standpoint because they were really impressive for the time. By comparison, 2d characters on pre-rendered backdrops was something I had already seen years earlier with games like Alone in the Dark.

While I enjoyed the CGI in FF7, I would say that calling it Toy Story like is a bit of an overstatement.

-Byshop

[QUOTE="Jag85"]

[QUOTE="Byshop"]

Yeah, I kind of have to agree with this. While FF7 was one of my all time favorite games, I wouldn't exactly call it "mind blowing" or having that "wow" factor because from a technological standpoint it wasn't that impressive. This was in an era where some PS1 games already had full voice acting (albeit no games that were nearly as comprehensive as FF7) and the super deformed characters felt like a step backwards. Additionally, I was coming off of PC WRPGs like Baldur's Gate and before that I grew up on the SSI Goldbox games like Pools of Radiance, Azure Bonds, Silver Blades and Pools of Darkness as well as games that rivaled the complexity of games like Oblivion and Skyrim in 2D graphics like Ultima 7. These games allowed for complete, open world exploration.

When I started FF7, my first reaction was "what is this primitive, linear crap?" since the first hour or so of the game is spent running down hallways and getting into fights (you know, like how FF13 is for the ENTIRE GAME :roll: ). Before I got past the first reactor, I put the game down and promptly forgot about it. It wasn't until months later that I picked it up again and gave it the time that it deserved that I realized that there was a lot more to this game and world than I had initially given it credit for. The more I played, the larger the game turned out to be.

It's the epic scope of the world and the quality of the narrative that really makes FF7 shine, but that's not something you can exactly -see- just by playing it for a bit. So while eventually it turned out to be one of my favorite games, there really wasn't that up front "wow" factor that I got with some other titles.

-Byshop

Jakandsigz

In other words, you played Baldur's Gate, a game that released at the very end of 1998, before FFVII... which means you didn't actually play FFVII until 1999, some two years after its originally release... If that's the case, then I'm not surprised at all if you didn't see the "WOW" factor.

If you played FFVII when it first came out in 1997, then I'm pretty sure it would have been a different story. The production values were a huge step up from every RPG that had come before it, whether on PC or console. Just months before playing FFVII, I remember playing several PC RPG's like Diablo and Lands of Lore II (the latter itself having high production values compared to other RPG's at the time), and yet the production values of FFVII still blew them away.

FFVII's $45 million budget was huge for its time, and it shows. The CGI cut-scenes in FFVII were some of the best I had seen up until that time, almost like Toy Story quality CGI in a video game. And the way the CGI blended into the real-time graphics also looked impressive. And of course, the pre-rendered art design also looked incredible. Even the real-time 3D graphics in the battles also looked impressive for a PS1 game. The only down-side was the lego-like field character models on the field, which stood out like a sore thumb compared to the high-quality pre-rendered backdrops and the battle 3D graphics.

Anyway, like you said, what ultimately made FFVII memorable for many gamers wasn't necessarily the "WOW" factor of the production values (which already stated to look dated several years later), but the "epic scope of the world and the quality of the narrative".

You have stated it's your favorite games so I know there's bias but Toy Story graphics?

Nitpicky much?

I said "almost" Toy Story quality CGI, i.e. the closest thing to it among video games at the time.

Megaman X2

but what -kind- of games were you playing? To be clear, Quake is -not- what I'm comparing this to.

[QUOTE="Jag85"]

In other words, you played Baldur's Gate, a game that released at the very end of 1998, before FFVII... which means you didn't actually play FFVII until 1999, some two years after its originally release... If that's the case, then I'm not surprised at all if you didn't see the "WOW" factor.

If you played FFVII when it first came out in 1997, then I'm pretty sure it would have been a different story. The production values were a huge step up from every RPG that had come before it, whether on PC or console. Just months before playing FFVII, I remember playing several PC RPG's like Diablo and Lands of Lore II (the latter itself having high production values compared to other RPG's at the time), and yet the production values of FFVII still blew them away.

FFVII's $45 million budget was huge for its time, and it shows. The CGI cut-scenes in FFVII were some of the best I had seen up until that time, almost like Toy Story quality CGI in a video game. And the way the CGI blended into the real-time graphics also looked impressive. And of course, the pre-rendered art design also looked incredible. Even the real-time 3D graphics in the battles also looked impressive for a PS1 game. The only down-side was the lego-like field character models on the field, which stood out like a sore thumb compared to the high-quality pre-rendered backdrops and the battle 3D graphics.

Anyway, like you said, what ultimately made FFVII memorable for many gamers wasn't necessarily the "WOW" factor of the production values (which already stated to look dated several years later), but the "epic scope of the world and the quality of the narrative".

Byshop

I did not play FF7 the day it came out, but it was within a year of it's release. I confess that I don't exactly remember the chronology since this was 15 years ago. Looking back I likely had played FF7 first, but there were many other games that I mentioned in my other post that did blow me away even years before FF7.

Initially, it felt like flash with no substance. The combat system seemed painfully simplistic compared to the 6 character party based D&D engine based battles against 20 enemies that I was used to. The CGI was cool, but only when it happened which was pretty infrequent. The total FMV in teh game when added together comes out to less than an hour of total footage in a game that lasts a minimum of 40 hours for most people.

Games that I was playing on PC years earlier included Wing Commander 3 and 4, which were fully voice (and actor) acted FMV by real Hollywood actors. They were also teh first real 3D space combat sims. THESE games blew me away from a technical standpoint because they were really impressive for the time. By comparison, 2d characters on pre-rendered backdrops was something I had already seen years earlier with games like Alone in the Dark.

While I enjoyed the CGI in FF7, I would say that calling it Toy Story like is a bit of an overstatement.

-Byshop

FFVII's combat system was actually quite simplistic even compared to its own predecessors and Squareosft's own RPG's, let alone other RPG's. Nevertherless, it more than made up for it with the complex materia system, though like you said before, it takes hours to really get to grips with it.

I remember the live-action FMV sequences in games like Wing Commander and Resident Evil, as well as the pre-rendered backdrops of Alone in the Dark and Resident Evil... And yet I still found FFVII's production values very impressive back in 1997. Compared to the small rooms of AITD and RE, the pre-rendered backdrops in FFVII were very large and detailed. And compared to the live-action FMV's of games like Wing Commander and Resident Evil, FFVII's FMV sequences were fully CGI.

And like I said above, it was "almost" Toy Story quality. It wasn't quite there, but it was the closest thing to it I had seen in a video game up until that time. And over the years, Square's CGI division kept upping their game until they reached the point where their CGI quality actually surpassed Pixar, with FF Spirits Within (though all that CGI quality was kind of wasted on that boring flop of a movie).

FFVII's combat system was actually quite simplistic even compared to its own predecessors and Squareosft's own RPG's, let alone other RPG's. Nevertherless, it more than made up for it with the complex materia system, though like you said before, it takes hours to really get to grips with it.

I remember the live-action FMV sequences in games like Wing Commander and Resident Evil, as well as the pre-rendered backdrops of Alone in the Dark and Resident Evil... And yet I still found FFVII's production values very impressive back in 1997. Compared to the small rooms of AITD and RE, the pre-rendered backdrops in FFVII were very large and detailed. And compared to the live-action FMV's of games like Wing Commander and Resident Evil, FFVII's FMV sequences were fully CGI.

And like I said above, it was "almost" Toy Story quality. It wasn't quite there, but it was the closest thing to it I had seen in a video game up until that time. And over the years, Square's CGI division kept upping their game until they reached the point where their CGI quality actually surpassed Pixar, with FF Spirits Within (though all that CGI quality was kind of wasted on that boring flop of a movie).

Jag85

The production values of FF7 were indeed impressive, but at the time I was hung up on the linearily and lack of techincal prowess (compared to PC titles). What I didn't realize at the time was that this game excelled in artistic value, and in retrospect this was probably the first game that made me realize that art could trump tech. Today, I care far less about the techincal prowess of a game when compared to its artistic vision.

Re: Toy Story, I get that you said "almost" but that implies that it's close but not quite there. The tech that went into Toy Story is way beyond what went into FF7 even though artistically they may look somewhat similar because they both use simplified character models. That's another example of how art style trumps tech.

-Byshop

[QUOTE="Jag85"]

FFVII's combat system was actually quite simplistic even compared to its own predecessors and Squareosft's own RPG's, let alone other RPG's. Nevertherless, it more than made up for it with the complex materia system, though like you said before, it takes hours to really get to grips with it.

I remember the live-action FMV sequences in games like Wing Commander and Resident Evil, as well as the pre-rendered backdrops of Alone in the Dark and Resident Evil... And yet I still found FFVII's production values very impressive back in 1997. Compared to the small rooms of AITD and RE, the pre-rendered backdrops in FFVII were very large and detailed. And compared to the live-action FMV's of games like Wing Commander and Resident Evil, FFVII's FMV sequences were fully CGI.

And like I said above, it was "almost" Toy Story quality. It wasn't quite there, but it was the closest thing to it I had seen in a video game up until that time. And over the years, Square's CGI division kept upping their game until they reached the point where their CGI quality actually surpassed Pixar, with FF Spirits Within (though all that CGI quality was kind of wasted on that boring flop of a movie).

Byshop

The production values of FF7 were indeed impressive, but at the time I was hung up on the linearily and lack of techincal prowess (compared to PC titles). What I didn't realize at the time was that this game excelled in artistic value, and in retrospect this was probably the first game that made me realize that art could trump tech. Today, I care far less about the techincal prowess of a game when compared to its artistic vision.

Re: Toy Story, I get that you said "almost" but that implies that it's close but not quite there. The tech that went into Toy Story is way beyond what went into FF7 even though artistically they may look somewhat similar because they both use simplified character models. That's another example of how art style trumps tech.

-Byshop

Fair enough. I was only talking about the production values this whole time, but when it comes to the gameplay, it's quite easy to see how RPG fans would have been disappointed. In fact, a lot of previous Squaresoft fans had similar complaints too, about FFVII's gameplay in some ways being a step back from more non-linear previous efforts like FFVI and Chrono Trigger, although I'd say the materia system was definitely a step forward. But by the end of the day, like you said before, it was the art design, epic scope and storytelling that really drew in many gamers.

The impact it had might also depend on where you lived at the time. Here in Europe, most of the classic FF, Chrono or Ultima games weren't even released here, so the RPG genre still felt quite new to us when FFVII came out in 1997. In fact, the British game designer Peter Molyneux said something similar, about FFVII being the game that defined the RPG genre for him, which confused a lot of American gamers who didn't realize that RPG's weren't that well known in Europe before FFVII. 

The only previous RPG's I was familiar with before FFVII were action RPG's like Secret of Mana, Diablo, and Lands of Lore II. I initially thought FFVII was going to be an action RPG like Secret of Mana, but when I realized it has turn-based combat instead, that was a huge turn-off! But it was the epic scope and the storytelling that really drew me in, and along the way I slowly got used to the turn-based combat as well.