Volition developer blasts used game business

  • 141 results
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3

This topic is locked from further discussion.

Avatar image for Metamania
Metamania

12035

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 24

User Lists: 0

#1 Metamania
Member since 2002 • 12035 Posts

Link

The used game business is a contentious issue. For companies like GameStop, sales of used games are big business, but those who actually develop games don't see a dime when people purchase their titles second-hand. One developer recently vocalized his take on the used game market, and it paints a less than lovely image of the business.

In a recent entry on game developer blog AltDevBlog titled "I Feel Used," Volition design director Jameson Durall lambasted the used game market, and noted that change is needed or the industry will crumble.

"In the end, I fully believe that we have to do something about these issues or our industry is going to fall apart," he said. "People often don't understand the cost that goes into creating these huge experiences that we put on the shelves for only $60. They also don't seem to realize how much they are hurting us when they buy a used game and how pirating a copy is just plain stealing."

Durall, who is currently working on a secret project at Volition, laid out a plan for combating used game sales. He said supporting games with downloadable content will encourage users to hold on to their games longer. However, Durall warned that this tactic only will work if the DLC in question is "compelling and a good enough value" for consumers.

Durall also pledged his support to the online pass schemes being used by publishers like Electronic Arts, THQ, Sony, and others, whereby parts of a game are available only to those with a new copy of a game.

"Some consumers complain about this method because the precedent has always been that it's included in the price and should come with it," he said. "It did for the person who actually bought it first…so was saving that $5 at Gamestop worth it for you?"

Looking ahead, Durall said he also embraced Sony's plan to offer digital copies of PlayStation Vita titles--which cannot become used units--at a discounted rate. He said he expects gamers to be enticed to buy digital copies because of their lower price rate, and this will in turn lead to fewer used copies in the wild.

Durall also talked about the rumor that the Next Xbox would prevent gamers from playing used titles. Durall said this kind of mechanism would be "a fantastic change for our business," while admitting gamers would not be excited about it at first.

That said, Durall said he believes gamers will "grow to understand why and that it won't kill him."

As for how Microsoft might go about preventing gamers from playing used titles, Durall said the company already has a system in place. He suggests that Microsoft would need only use a code to tie a copy of a title to an Xbox Live account, and make the game playable only on that account.

Durall admits that a system like this would hurt the game rental business, and that there are several "faults that would have to be ironed out," but nevertheless, he contends that it is certainly possible.

Gamespot

Any thoughts from you guys?

Avatar image for AcidSoldner
AcidSoldner

7051

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#2 AcidSoldner
Member since 2007 • 7051 Posts
Complete and total bullsh!t. Every single industry that is in the business of selling entertainment goods has a second-hand market. Video games aren't special in this regard and shouldn't be treated any differently.
Avatar image for deactivated-5b19c359a3789
deactivated-5b19c359a3789

7785

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#3 deactivated-5b19c359a3789
Member since 2002 • 7785 Posts

Problem is that anything as bad as account tied DRM, much like every other proposed "solution" to come out of the industry, would do more than eliminate used game sales.

Roommates would be forced to either buy multiple copies of the game or share an XBL/PSN ID, for example.

Even if used game sales are bad (which is contentious enough on it's own), any preventative measures should not be allowed to affect anything beyond that.

Basically, they should start targeting Gamestop instead of their customers. If they don't find any success there, then they have to grow up.

Avatar image for arkephonic
arkephonic

7221

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#4 arkephonic
Member since 2006 • 7221 Posts

What was the last Volition game I played.....

Oh yeah, Red Faction Armageddon. The game was below average... This comment would have a lot more meaning if it was coming from Rockstar or something. An average developer should really keep their mouths shut about things like this, because it's arguable that they don't even make games worth buying. Leave it to the top developers to speak their minds on such topics.

Avatar image for Metamania
Metamania

12035

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 24

User Lists: 0

#5 Metamania
Member since 2002 • 12035 Posts

What was the last Volition game I played.....

Oh yeah, Red Faction Armageddon. The game was below average... This comment would have a lot more meaning if it was coming from Rockstar or something. An average developer should really keep their mouths shut about things like this, because it's arguable that they don't even make games worth buying. Leave it to the top developers to speak their minds on such topics.

arkephonic

Not true. Saints Row is a series that has done VERY WELL for the developer; I wouldn't call that series games that are not worth buying.

Avatar image for deactivated-57e5de5e137a4
deactivated-57e5de5e137a4

12929

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#6 deactivated-57e5de5e137a4
Member since 2004 • 12929 Posts
Same old 'give us more money' song and dance. I think some publishers will come to realize that gamers don't necessarily all want games that just cost millions and millions of dollars to make and would like innovation instead.
Avatar image for arkephonic
arkephonic

7221

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#7 arkephonic
Member since 2006 • 7221 Posts

[QUOTE="arkephonic"]

What was the last Volition game I played.....

Oh yeah, Red Faction Armageddon. The game was below average... This comment would have a lot more meaning if it was coming from Rockstar or something. An average developer should really keep their mouths shut about things like this, because it's arguable that they don't even make games worth buying. Leave it to the top developers to speak their minds on such topics.

Metamania

Not true. Saints Row is a series that has done VERY WELL for the developer; I wouldn't call that series games that are not worth buying.

I haven't played a Saints Row game before, but I'll take your word for it. I buy each and every one of my games new, so I do my part to help the developers. I've also never pirated a game in my life. The only games I buy used are retro games that are no longer in production. I agree with what someone said a few posts earlier, they should target Gamestop, not the consumers. As a game collector, these extreme DRM methods kind of worry me in a sense that I don't know how they will affect games 10, 15, 20 years from now. Will we still be able to have access to all the content on the disc? Will games even be playable that far down the line? What if Xbox Live doesn't exist anymore? There are too many questions that I don't have answers to, and that bugs me. Anyone and everyone can fire up a Nintendo 64 or a PS2 and play any and every game in each of their respective libraries without having to worry about if they will play or not.

Avatar image for foxhound_fox
foxhound_fox

98532

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 13

User Lists: 0

#8 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts
First it was: "Our games aren't selling... must be teh piraciez!!!!1!" Now it is: "Our games aren't selling... must be teh uzed gamez!!!!1!" Scapegoats can't help developers make games people want to buy. Also: first sale doctrine moots their entire point. They already got their money for a copy of the game, and have no way of proving anyone buying used ever intended on buying new.
Avatar image for YoungSinatra25
YoungSinatra25

4314

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 9

User Lists: 0

#9 YoungSinatra25
Member since 2009 • 4314 Posts
It's stupid. Look at it like this you buy a game new go to a friends and play it and then take it home. Guess what? Now you have to purchase an extra license to play said game on your own system. WHAT?!?! Get the **** out of here!!! I know making games isn't cheap and the market is flooded with crap and people can't tell the difference between a good game and a popular game, but this is something that hurts them as well. I got into many series, I would not have, buying used. When a sequeal is released I'm more likely to buy new. If I hadn't sampled the game at a discounted price I wouldn't have ventured into the titles sucessor. On a sidenote **** GS & EB. Last gen they gave you $25 dollars for games that cost $50. Now games are $60 and they still only give you $25. (if your lucky) I buy new or wait till the game is on sale. And TBH I've gotten new games on sale way cheaper then what I would have buying used. It's a double edged sword is what it is. And this system blocking second hand game is stupider then all hell. What about the game renting business?? It's corporations sticking it to the consumer as usual. I miss the days when gaming was taboo and left in the dark recesses of your moms basement never to be spoken about like watching Asian ladyboy porn... Ah, good time.
Avatar image for fl4tlined
fl4tlined

4134

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 3

User Lists: 0

#10 fl4tlined
Member since 2007 • 4134 Posts
says the guy who developed the game which had however how many weeks of dlc for the unfinished game that they like to call saints row the third
Avatar image for Shinobi120
Shinobi120

5728

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#11 Shinobi120
Member since 2004 • 5728 Posts

LMAO, what a big crybaby. Does he realize that without the used game market, the gaming industry wouldn't be where it is today?

It's not the used game market that's crumbling the industry; it's bad games, DLC, DD, DRM, online passes, rehashed games, & making expensive big budget games. THAT'S what's killing the gaming industry. If you take away the used gaming market, then piracy is going to skyrocket even more so than before.

Avatar image for Randolph
Randolph

10542

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#12 Randolph
Member since 2002 • 10542 Posts
"He suggests that Microsoft would need only use a code to tie a copy of a title to an Xbox Live account, and make the game playable only on that account." Has this guy considered how many of the people who bought Saints Row 3 may not play online at all? Only about half of all 360 owners are on XBL. Such a system would have the next Xbox basically having always online DRM for all of it's games. That would cut the market in half. Not a very well thought out idea on his part.
Avatar image for Visionisto
Visionisto

25

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#13 Visionisto
Member since 2011 • 25 Posts

The only reason he likes the idea of the next xbox banning used games is because he wants people to buy his **** games instead of renting them to see how they are. I think this guy is just a douche who is gonna lose his job soon due to poor sales, and he wants to blame it on something other than his poor design!

Avatar image for branketra
branketra

51726

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 9

User Lists: 9

#14 branketra
Member since 2006 • 51726 Posts

They could make a better countermeasure than online-only DRM like the PC version of Assassin's Creed 2. That's just ridiculous.

I'm talking about the gaming industry in general.

Avatar image for brucecambell
brucecambell

1489

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#15 brucecambell
Member since 2011 • 1489 Posts

Gamers immediately claim greed. Its not greed. These people ( devs ) simply want to keep their jobs. Simple as that.

In this day in age when games cost as much as they do to develop every copy sold counts. Its getting to the point where if a game doesnt sell millions of copies then the studio may get permanately shut down. One flop can kill a studio.

How is the game industry suppose to survive when the cost to develop the games is exceeding the sales of the game? Every copy sold counts.

I dont agree with used sales & i dont agree with what they're trying to do to stop it, i do however understand. I understand its not greed but these people see things in the industry from a 1st person perspective. They see its flaws & faults & understand the industry could eventually collapse. I can see this happening too.

We dont need another gaming crash with all games being buried out in the desert ( 1983 crash, ET games )

Avatar image for deactivated-57e5de5e137a4
deactivated-57e5de5e137a4

12929

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#16 deactivated-57e5de5e137a4
Member since 2004 • 12929 Posts

Gamers immediately claim greed. Its not greed. These people ( devs ) simply want to keep their jobs. Simple as that.

In this day in age when games cost as much as they do to develop every copy sold counts. Its getting to the point where if a game doesnt sell millions of copies then the studio may get permanately shut down. One flop can kill a studio.

How is the game industry suppose to survive when the cost to develop the games is exceeding the sales of the game? Every copy sold counts.

I dont agree with used sales & i dont agree with what they're trying to do to stop it, i do however understand. I understand its not greed but these people see things in the industry from a 1st person perspective. They see its flaws & faults & understand the industry could eventually collapse. I can see this happening too.

We dont need another gaming crash with all games being buried out in the desert ( 1983 crash, ET games )

brucecambell
Bullspit. The gaming industry will never collapse. Companies with outdated business philosophies might, but there's more creative, smaller studios springing up all the time.
Avatar image for rawsavon
rawsavon

40001

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#17 rawsavon
Member since 2004 • 40001 Posts
Used sales are going to ruin the industry. There is nothing to be done about it though....almost all industries experience something similar
Avatar image for CerebralBrawler
CerebralBrawler

25

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#18 CerebralBrawler
Member since 2012 • 25 Posts
The video game industry must not be hurting too bad with them cranking out new games every month.
Avatar image for LazySloth718
LazySloth718

2345

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#19 LazySloth718
Member since 2011 • 2345 Posts

I don't hear developers complaining that a Gamestop in every mall and every corner ENLARGED the games business. It made it more VISIBLE to the average consumer and made a whole new generation of game buyers.

Or how selling used games enables people to buy more new ones.

Or how it takes away the risk of buying a bad game, and thus enables people to try titles they didn't play before.

Now we will have to be super picky to not waste our $60.

We will only buy blockbusters that already sold 5 million copies, only 90+ rated games.

Because of online passes and bullschit, makes bad purchases permanent, we will do anything to avoid those bad purchases.

Bottom Line : The main thing hurting the video game industry is its own saturation, there are too many studios, too many developers, too many publishers and producers, we have games coming out almost every day, each of them 20, 40, 60 hours long, if the average person plays 1-3 hours per day, along with replays and online, most people end up really only having time for 4-5 games per year.

Video gaming is fun, everybody wants to be in the video game business.

I would. Lots of people would.

But that fact makes it so that the industry is overcrowded. Too many producers, too many games, not enough time or money to play it all.

So they blame used games.

But the used games is not the core of the problem. The core of the problem is there are too many developers to feed, and they are each not getting enough money to survive.

The idea that "if you build a game, people WILL buy it, you WILL survive as a studio" is false.

Just because you build it, don't mean people will have TIME to break away from CoD/WoW/Madden to play your game.

Avatar image for branketra
branketra

51726

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 9

User Lists: 9

#20 branketra
Member since 2006 • 51726 Posts
Used sales are going to ruin the industry. There is nothing to be done about it though....almost all industries experience something similarrawsavon
Would you say the auto industry is worse off because of used cars? There are also used computers.
Avatar image for rawsavon
rawsavon

40001

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#21 rawsavon
Member since 2004 • 40001 Posts
[QUOTE="rawsavon"]Used sales are going to ruin the industry. There is nothing to be done about it though....almost all industries experience something similarBranKetra
Would you say the auto industry is worse off because of used cars? There are also used computers.

are you trying to say that all circumstances translate across industries? If so, I am going to destroy your argument...just some fair warning. There are many industries that have unique properties
Avatar image for branketra
branketra

51726

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 9

User Lists: 9

#22 branketra
Member since 2006 • 51726 Posts
[QUOTE="BranKetra"][QUOTE="rawsavon"]Used sales are going to ruin the industry. There is nothing to be done about it though....almost all industries experience something similarrawsavon
Would you say the auto industry is worse off because of used cars? There are also used computers.

are you trying to say that all circumstances translate across industries? If so, I am going to destroy your argument...just some fair warning. There are many industries that have unique properties

I don't think so, but you did say all industries experience a problem similar to used product sales. I just thought that's what you meant.
Avatar image for c_rakestraw
c_rakestraw

14627

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 64

User Lists: 0

#23 c_rakestraw  Moderator
Member since 2007 • 14627 Posts

Basically, they should start targeting Gamestop instead of their customers. If they don't find any success there, then they have to grow up.syztem

Precisely. GameStop's the problem here. They're the ones selling games used for $2 cheaper, not us. Find some way to get 'em to share their profits or undercut them. That's the only real solution.

Avatar image for Pedro
Pedro

73901

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 72

User Lists: 0

#24 Pedro  Online
Member since 2002 • 73901 Posts

Gamers immediately claim greed. Its not greed. These people ( devs ) simply want to keep their jobs. Simple as that.

In this day in age when games cost as much as they do to develop every copy sold counts. Its getting to the point where if a game doesnt sell millions of copies then the studio may get permanately shut down. One flop can kill a studio.

How is the game industry suppose to survive when the cost to develop the games is exceeding the sales of the game? Every copy sold counts.

I dont agree with used sales & i dont agree with what they're trying to do to stop it, i do however understand. I understand its not greed but these people see things in the industry from a 1st person perspective. They see its flaws & faults & understand the industry could eventually collapse. I can see this happening too.

We dont need another gaming crash with all games being buried out in the desert ( 1983 crash, ET games )

brucecambell

Well if its not greed then is poor management. If you are making a game in which the cost exceeds the potential to make a profit then you are doing something wrong. The used game market is not at fault for inflated budgets. Some of these studios that are crying fowl have been luxuriating in unnecessary expenses inflating the price of game making. Gaming studios are uncessarilylarge further increasing the cost of making games. It is the responsibility of the studio to insure that any project they are undertaking is profitable. If any studio feels the need to spend millions of dollars on a mediocre game and expect to get blockbuster/COD returns then they are sadly mistaken. If anyone is at fault it is the studios.

Another stupid and costly direction gaming has been taking recently is making games overly cinematic. Cinematic games are expensive becuase they are taking on movie like budgets to achieve the level of cinematics that some gamers have come to expect. However, a cinematic game is significantly more costlier to the gamer and the studio because for a fraction of the cost for a game a person can enjoy a two hour long movie with cinematics and CG than is greatly superior to that in any game. It is also the reason why smaller pure game studios don't run in to these over spending habits of some of the larger studios.

So in conclusion, used games are not the problem and has never been the problem. If game devs do decide to take measures to severe used games they would inevitably undercut and sabotage their own profits and the gaming industry.

Avatar image for rawsavon
rawsavon

40001

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#25 rawsavon
Member since 2004 • 40001 Posts
[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="BranKetra"] Would you say the auto industry is worse off because of used cars? There are also used computers.BranKetra
are you trying to say that all circumstances translate across industries? If so, I am going to destroy your argument...just some fair warning. There are many industries that have unique properties

I don't think so, but you did say all industries experience a problem similar to used product sales. I just thought that's what you meant.

Used sales are not helpful to the manufacturers in any industry (that I know of). But the magnitude of the effect varies by industry
Avatar image for branketra
branketra

51726

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 9

User Lists: 9

#26 branketra
Member since 2006 • 51726 Posts
[QUOTE="BranKetra"][QUOTE="rawsavon"] are you trying to say that all circumstances translate across industries? If so, I am going to destroy your argument...just some fair warning. There are many industries that have unique properties rawsavon
I don't think so, but you did say all industries experience a problem similar to used product sales. I just thought that's what you meant.

Used sales are not helpful to the manufacturers in any industry (that I know of). But the magnitude of the effect varies by industry

Hmm. I don't know the numbers, but I'm guessing that if so many game developers are complaining, they must think it's a big problem.
Avatar image for rawsavon
rawsavon

40001

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#27 rawsavon
Member since 2004 • 40001 Posts
[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="BranKetra"] I don't think so, but you did say all industries experience a problem similar to used product sales. I just thought that's what you meant.BranKetra
Used sales are not helpful to the manufacturers in any industry (that I know of). But the magnitude of the effect varies by industry

Hmm. I don't know the numbers, but I'm guessing that if so many game developers are complaining, they must think it's a big problem.

I have outlined the issues in numerous threads (market price of games, production costs, user base, etc...all backed up with figures). No one listens or cares. All they think is 'evil corporation charging too much and trying to limit them'...they don't think about how they are killing their hobby
Avatar image for QuistisTrepe_
QuistisTrepe_

4121

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#28 QuistisTrepe_
Member since 2010 • 4121 Posts

In a recent entry on game developer blog AltDevBlog titled "I Feel Used," Volition design director Jameson Durall lambasted the used game market, and noted that change is needed or the industry will crumble.

"In the end, I fully believe that we have to do something about these issues or our industry is going to fall apart," he said. "People often don't understand the cost that goes into creating these huge experiences that we put on the shelves for only $60. They also don't seem to realize how much they are hurting us when they buy a used game and how pirating a copy is just plain stealing."

I stopped reading there. Doctrine of First Sale rights=piracy, yeah uh-huh.:roll: Sorry, but 30 years of industry growth that is supporting several different platforms of gaming at the moment, contradicts all of this guy's laughably asinine claims. Secondhand sales have always been around and yet these guys keep on making more and more money every year. Cry me a ******* river.

Hey Volition, if you want my money for a new purchase, perhaps you should develop a game that is worth my $60. Ever thought of that?

Avatar image for QuistisTrepe_
QuistisTrepe_

4121

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#29 QuistisTrepe_
Member since 2010 • 4121 Posts

Used sales are going to ruin the industry. rawsavon

Same thing has been said for decades. How's that claim working out?

Avatar image for branketra
branketra

51726

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 9

User Lists: 9

#30 branketra
Member since 2006 • 51726 Posts
[QUOTE="BranKetra"][QUOTE="rawsavon"] Used sales are not helpful to the manufacturers in any industry (that I know of). But the magnitude of the effect varies by industryrawsavon
Hmm. I don't know the numbers, but I'm guessing that if so many game developers are complaining, they must think it's a big problem.

I have outlined the issues in numerous threads (market price of games, production costs, user base, etc...all backed up with figures). No one listens or cares. All they think is 'evil corporation charging too much and trying to limit them'...they don't think about how they are killing their hobby

I've never seen you post in one of these threads before. *shrugs* Sorry.
Avatar image for rawsavon
rawsavon

40001

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#31 rawsavon
Member since 2004 • 40001 Posts

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]Used sales are going to ruin the industry. QuistisTrepe_

Same thing has been said for decades. How's that claim working out?

...pretty well (or badly, depending on POV) given how the vast majority of studios are doing economically...add in the ones shifting focus to phones/ipad
Avatar image for rawsavon
rawsavon

40001

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#32 rawsavon
Member since 2004 • 40001 Posts
[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="BranKetra"] Hmm. I don't know the numbers, but I'm guessing that if so many game developers are complaining, they must think it's a big problem. BranKetra
I have outlined the issues in numerous threads (market price of games, production costs, user base, etc...all backed up with figures). No one listens or cares. All they think is 'evil corporation charging too much and trying to limit them'...they don't think about how they are killing their hobby

I've never seen you post in one of these threads before. *shrugs* Sorry.

no need to be sorry. tl;dr -games cost less than ever...with inflation and without (versus SNES era) -games costs many, many times more to make (at least 10x as much) -the user base has not increased very much versus previous 2 gens (less than doubled...versus costs growing so fast) -the market refuses to pay more for games ...so studios other things to make up for the difference (DLC, online passes, etc). And people fight those as well That leaves a market place where only hits and PSN or Xboblive titles can make it...so then gamers buy even less b/c there is less innovation...this makes the above even worse
Avatar image for QuistisTrepe_
QuistisTrepe_

4121

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#33 QuistisTrepe_
Member since 2010 • 4121 Posts

[QUOTE="QuistisTrepe_"]

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]Used sales are going to ruin the industry. rawsavon

Same thing has been said for decades. How's that claim working out?

...pretty well (or badly, depending on POV) given how the vast majority of studios are doing economically...add in the ones shifting focus to phones/ipad

So diversifiying is only bad when the gaming industry does it, gotcha.:|

Avatar image for rawsavon
rawsavon

40001

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#34 rawsavon
Member since 2004 • 40001 Posts

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="QuistisTrepe_"]

Same thing has been said for decades. How's that claim working out?

QuistisTrepe_

...pretty well (or badly, depending on POV) given how the vast majority of studios are doing economically...add in the ones shifting focus to phones/ipad

So diversifiying is only bad when the gaming industry does it, gotcha.:|

not at all. diversification is a good thing to point (as with all things) But there is a difference in diversification (which can be good or bad) and shifting ...there is a major shift going on. this is not the same as diversification
Avatar image for QuistisTrepe_
QuistisTrepe_

4121

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#35 QuistisTrepe_
Member since 2010 • 4121 Posts

[QUOTE="BranKetra"][QUOTE="rawsavon"] I have outlined the issues in numerous threads (market price of games, production costs, user base, etc...all backed up with figures). No one listens or cares. All they think is 'evil corporation charging too much and trying to limit them'...they don't think about how they are killing their hobbyrawsavon
I've never seen you post in one of these threads before. *shrugs* Sorry.

no need to be sorry. tl;dr -games cost less than ever...with inflation and without (versus SNES era) -games costs many, many times more to make (at least 10x as much) -the user base has not increased very much versus previous 2 gens (less than doubled...versus costs growing so fast) -the market refuses to pay more for games ...so studios other things to make up for the difference (DLC, online passes, etc). And people fight those as well That leaves a market place where only hits and PSN or Xboblive titles can make it...so then gamers buy even less b/c there is less innovation...this makes the above even worse

I'm just not seeing it. Those sound more like opinions that anything else. I've seen the numbers, but the figures don't translate into what is actually occurring in reality. If the gaming industry was in such dire straits, then why is the market supporting several different platforms at one time? This was unthinkable in the 90s, but it's happening today. Like I said before, the industry continues to expand is more profitable than ever.

So yeah, I'm just not seeing how developers are hurting.:?

Avatar image for Randolph
Randolph

10542

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#36 Randolph
Member since 2002 • 10542 Posts

You make some good points raw, and some not so good points, but cutting off access to games as a whole for fully half the current gaming audience, and limiting the ways a good half of whats left can pay for new games, (trade ins are the only way many people can still afford to game at all in this economy) is not going to make the situation better for these developers and their long term job security. It would make it much worse for them.

Avatar image for QuistisTrepe_
QuistisTrepe_

4121

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#37 QuistisTrepe_
Member since 2010 • 4121 Posts

[QUOTE="QuistisTrepe_"]

[QUOTE="rawsavon"] ...pretty well (or badly, depending on POV) given how the vast majority of studios are doing economically...add in the ones shifting focus to phones/ipad rawsavon

So diversifiying is only bad when the gaming industry does it, gotcha.:|

not at all. diversification is a good thing to point (as with all things) But there is a difference in diversification (which can be good or bad) and shifting ...there is a major shift going on. this is not the same as diversification

Businesses have to change with the times, this isn't anything new.

Avatar image for rawsavon
rawsavon

40001

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#38 rawsavon
Member since 2004 • 40001 Posts

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="QuistisTrepe_"]

So diversifiying is only bad when the gaming industry does it, gotcha.:|

QuistisTrepe_

not at all. diversification is a good thing to point (as with all things) But there is a difference in diversification (which can be good or bad) and shifting ...there is a major shift going on. this is not the same as diversification

Businesses have to change with the times, this isn't anything new.

For those that survive, it is fine for them...but ITT I said (gamers) hurting the hobby they love. You are not discussing the proper item atm
Avatar image for rawsavon
rawsavon

40001

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#39 rawsavon
Member since 2004 • 40001 Posts

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="BranKetra"] I've never seen you post in one of these threads before. *shrugs* Sorry.QuistisTrepe_

no need to be sorry. tl;dr -games cost less than ever...with inflation and without (versus SNES era) -games costs many, many times more to make (at least 10x as much) -the user base has not increased very much versus previous 2 gens (less than doubled...versus costs growing so fast) -the market refuses to pay more for games ...so studios other things to make up for the difference (DLC, online passes, etc). And people fight those as well That leaves a market place where only hits and PSN or Xboblive titles can make it...so then gamers buy even less b/c there is less innovation...this makes the above even worse

I'm just not seeing it. Those sound more like opinions that anything else. I've seen the numbers, but the figures don't translate into what is actually occurring in reality. If the gaming industry was in such dire straits, then why is the market supporting several different platforms at one time? This was unthinkable in the 90s, but it's happening today. Like I said before, the industry continues to expand is more profitable than ever.

So yeah, I'm just not seeing how developers are hurting.:?

I have gone through the numbers and shown them several times...all backed up. But if you can't see it, then...well...IMO that would speak either to intelligence or obstinance...or even observational skills (just look at 2 of the headlines day...major studio in trouble and another leaving for iphone games). These are nothing knew
Avatar image for Randolph
Randolph

10542

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#40 Randolph
Member since 2002 • 10542 Posts

Frankly I can also say that anyone in the industry who advocates mega corporations controlling when and how I play my games deserves to be unemployed. This article makes me glad I have not supported Volition at all this gen, and will continue to not support them. Well, I may buy a used copy of Saints Row 3, and then turn it in again just to spite them, if I feel good and salty.

Avatar image for QuistisTrepe_
QuistisTrepe_

4121

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#41 QuistisTrepe_
Member since 2010 • 4121 Posts

[QUOTE="QuistisTrepe_"]

[QUOTE="rawsavon"] not at all. diversification is a good thing to point (as with all things) But there is a difference in diversification (which can be good or bad) and shifting ...there is a major shift going on. this is not the same as diversificationrawsavon

Businesses have to change with the times, this isn't anything new.

For those that survive, it is fine for them...but ITT I said (gamers) hurting the hobby they love. You are not discussing the proper item atm

Uh, we are discussing the "proper item.":?

So how are gamers hurting their hobby? I'm starting to question whether you're being serious, or trying to sound clever in trying to play devil's advocate.

Avatar image for rawsavon
rawsavon

40001

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#42 rawsavon
Member since 2004 • 40001 Posts

You make some good points raw, and some not so good points, but cutting off access to games as a whole for fully half the current gaming audience, and limiting the ways a good half of whats left can pay for new games, (trade ins are the only way many people can still afford to game at all in this economy) is not going to make the situation better for these developers and their long term job security. It would make it much worse for them.

Randolph
I never said that was the only way. But gamers refuse to pay more for games. Gamers also don't want DLC ...so how do you propose developers compensate -keep in mind that games cost more than 10x to make...are selling for less...and the number of customers has less than doubled So everything they try and do to balance the scales is met with market resistance So we are left with Cash Cow games and PSN titles. Is anyone going to deny the lack of innovation and new IP's (see another headline from today)...that only drives away more gamers...that only makes things worse
Avatar image for rawsavon
rawsavon

40001

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#43 rawsavon
Member since 2004 • 40001 Posts

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="QuistisTrepe_"]

Businesses have to change with the times, this isn't anything new.

QuistisTrepe_

For those that survive, it is fine for them...but ITT I said (gamers) hurting the hobby they love. You are not discussing the proper item atm

Uh, we are discussing the "proper item.":?

So how are gamers hurting their hobby? I'm starting to question whether you're being serious, or trying to sound clever in trying to play devil's advocate.

how gamers hurt the industry...the market hurts by 1. buying used 2. refusing to pay more for games (prices don't even reflect inflation) 3. rebuking other attempts to offset costs...DLC, passes, etc The model is fine for the cash cow. The model is broken for other releases though
Avatar image for QuistisTrepe_
QuistisTrepe_

4121

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#44 QuistisTrepe_
Member since 2010 • 4121 Posts

[QUOTE="QuistisTrepe_"]

[QUOTE="rawsavon"] For those that survive, it is fine for them...but ITT I said (gamers) hurting the hobby they love. You are not discussing the proper item atmrawsavon

Uh, we are discussing the "proper item.":?

So how are gamers hurting their hobby? I'm starting to question whether you're being serious, or trying to sound clever in trying to play devil's advocate.

how gamers hurt the industry...the market hurts by 1. buying used 2. refusing to pay more for games (prices don't even reflect inflation) 3. rebuking other attempts to offset costs...DLC, passes, etc The model is fine for the cash cow. The model is broken for other releases though

I asked you how gamers are hurting their hobby. You haven't shown how this is occuring yet. You're spouting the same tired, debunked developer talking points over and over again.

  • How are we "refusing" DLC if we keep buying it?
  • How are gamers refusing to pay more if we're still buying new by the millions?
  • Buying used does not hurt the developer. Never has and never will.
Avatar image for Randolph
Randolph

10542

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#45 Randolph
Member since 2002 • 10542 Posts
[QUOTE="rawsavon"]

I never said that was the only way. But gamers refuse to pay more for games. Gamers also don't want DLC ...so how do you propose developers compensate

Make better games, or just go lay in a hole and die. Survival of the fittest is not nice, but it is what it is. People are paying ten dollars more than last gen for less content, and far more often than not, are helping the devs save money by acting as free beta testers, as too often these games are also shipping half finished and with no QA done at all. I don't mind the lack of innovation and new IPs, both are grossly overvalued by the sort of pseudo intellectual fluffmeisters (I have this term trademarked, it is mine!) that populate online message boards. I place more emphasis on execution. All the new ideas in the world don't matter if it's all executed poorly. (Fable series) I think we've had enough new ideas and innovation for this gen to keep things moving forward already.
Avatar image for rawsavon
rawsavon

40001

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#46 rawsavon
Member since 2004 • 40001 Posts

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="QuistisTrepe_"]

Uh, we are discussing the "proper item.":?

So how are gamers hurting their hobby? I'm starting to question whether you're being serious, or trying to sound clever in trying to play devil's advocate.

QuistisTrepe_

how gamers hurt the industry...the market hurts by 1. buying used 2. refusing to pay more for games (prices don't even reflect inflation) 3. rebuking other attempts to offset costs...DLC, passes, etc The model is fine for the cash cow. The model is broken for other releases though

I asked you how gamers are hurting their hobby. You haven't shown how this is occuring yet. You're spouting the same tired, debunked developer talking points over and over again.

  • How are we "refusing" DLC if we keep buying it?
  • How are gamers refusing to pay more if we're still buying new by the millions?
  • Buying used does not hurt the developer. Never has and never will.

DLC has not been met with a warm welcome. Just b/c some buy it does not mean it is as successful as it 'needs' to be (to offset the production costs v selling price). The market dictates the price of goods...the market (consumer) has dictated the price Every used sale that would have been a new sale in the absence of a used option hurts developers
Avatar image for rawsavon
rawsavon

40001

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#47 rawsavon
Member since 2004 • 40001 Posts
[QUOTE="Randolph"][QUOTE="rawsavon"]

I never said that was the only way. But gamers refuse to pay more for games. Gamers also don't want DLC ...so how do you propose developers compensate

Make better games, or just go lay in a hole and die. Survival of the fittest is not nice, but it is what it is. People are paying ten dollars more than last gen for less content, and far more often than not, are helping the devs save money by acting as free beta testers, as too often these games are also shipping half finished and with no QA done at all. I don't mind the lack of innovation and new IPs, both are grossly overvalued by the sort of pseudo intellectual fluffmeisters (I have this term trademarked, it is mine!) that populate online message boards. I place more emphasis on execution. All the new ideas in the world don't matter if it's all executed poorly. (Fable series) I think we've had enough new ideas and innovation for this gen to keep things moving forward already.

When you factor in inflation, gamers are paying less...so please do not use that logic. Companies ARE dieing...very fast. Seems you are getting what you want then (IP's). But nothing anyone will post here can overcome the rise in production costs versus DECREASED selling price of games versus increase in user base (that does not keep pace)
Avatar image for QuistisTrepe_
QuistisTrepe_

4121

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#48 QuistisTrepe_
Member since 2010 • 4121 Posts

I don't mind the lack of innovation and new IPs, both are grossly overvalued by the sort of pseudo intellectual fluffmeisters (I have this term trademarked, it is mine!) that populate online message boards. I place more emphasis on execution. All the new ideas in the world don't matter if it's all executed poorly. (Fable series) I think we've had enough new ideas and innovation for this gen to keep things moving forward already.Randolph

For starters, even the term "innovation" is largely misused. No one is going to reinvent the wheel at this point. But for the sake of argument, the innovation concept is still pretty subjective, at least in the manner that the word is carelessly tossed around message boards. (the idea that the Wii is "innovative" being the most notorious example of this)

Avatar image for King9999
King9999

11837

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 44

User Lists: 0

#49 King9999
Member since 2002 • 11837 Posts

Sounds to me they should just go digital.

Avatar image for QuistisTrepe_
QuistisTrepe_

4121

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#50 QuistisTrepe_
Member since 2010 • 4121 Posts

Every used sale that would have been a new sale in the absence of a used option hurts developersrawsavon

Here's some insider info for you, in order for there to have been a used game available, it means someone already bought it new. Developers get paid by the retailer. Pre-release, the retailer dispatches their minions to harass their customers by pushing preorders (the only true way that a gamer could ever support the developer by the way) like they're going out of st-yle. Effectively, this turns into free advertising for the developer. Gamers trade in their games for new, and the process goes on and on.

Volition is so full of **** that it's coming out of their eyes. It is absurd that developers like Volition cry foul over the very relationship that they benefit from so handsomely.