Volition developer blasts used game business

...are you back to saying the used market has no impact on new sales ROFL.
I agree that there is not a 1:1 ration.

rawsavon

It doesn't. So why are you still going on about this topic when you've all but admitted that your premise is critically flawed? The trade off between not needing to open their own retail outlets to sell their own wares and promoting their products evens things out. If you think used games are so terrible, then I'd love to hear your take on buying games at the bargin bin.

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]

...are you back to saying the used market has no impact on new sales ROFL.
I agree that there is not a 1:1 ration.

QuistisTrepe_

It doesn't. So why are you still going on about this topic when you've all but admitted that your premise is critically flawed? The trade off between not needing to open their own retail outlets to sell their own wares and promoting their products evens things out. If you think used games are so terrible, then I'd love to hear your take on buying games at the bargin bin.

As I said in another post, I support
1. a protection window on new games (no used sales in this time)...6 months or less
2. lower prices on DD
3. faster sales on old games to price out GS

IMO that would fix most of the issues with the least amount of cunsumer backlash (versus no used games on the next Xbox type rumor).
It would also better reflect market values.
And it would help to cut out the used game sales

Two things:

First, developers keep complaining that making games this gen is so much more expensive than before....who's fault is that exactly? No one is pointing guns at dev's heads and saying to spend 30 million to make one game. If they do that, that is their own choice/fault.

Second, Used games does not hurt the industry, period. Anyone who says different is either an idiot or they are trying to brainwash someone. For a game to get to the retail level, retailers need to buy the games from the publisher, and then they stock the game.

When you buy MvC3 at Walmart, you are NOT giving Capcom $60, you are giving WALMART $60 and then WALMART takes that $60 and puts it into the WALMART bank account to recover the money that they spent buying 50,000 copies of the game from Capcom.

Therefore, if you see a game outside of a giant warehouse, then the Devs have already been paid, because the Dev's and publishers get their money by selling the games to retailers. Retailers are the customers to them, not us.

Two things:

First, developers keep complaining that making games this gen is so much more expensive than before....who's fault is that exactly? No one is pointing guns at dev's heads and saying to spend 30 million to make one game. If they do that, that is their own choice/fault.

Second, Used games does not hurt the industry, period. Anyone who says different is either an idiot or they are trying to brainwash someone. For a game to get to the retail level, retailers need to buy the games from the publisher, and then they stock the game.

When you buy MvC3 at Walmart, you are NOT giving Capcom $60, you are giving WALMART $60 and then WALMART takes that $60 and puts it into the WALMART bank account to recover the money that they spent buying 50,000 copies of the game from Capcom.

Therefore, if you see a game outside of a giant warehouse, then the Devs have already been paid, because the Dev's and publishers get their money by selling the games to retailers. Retailers are the customers to them, not us.

Gamefan1986

rawsavon is clearly the most delusional poster on this thread.

rawsavon is clearly the most delusional poster on this thread.

garland51

[QUOTE="QuistisTrepe_"]

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]

...are you back to saying the used market has no impact on new sales ROFL.
I agree that there is not a 1:1 ration.

rawsavon

It doesn't. So why are you still going on about this topic when you've all but admitted that your premise is critically flawed? The trade off between not needing to open their own retail outlets to sell their own wares and promoting their products evens things out. If you think used games are so terrible, then I'd love to hear your take on buying games at the bargin bin.

As I said in another post, I support
1. a protection window on new games (no used sales in this time)...6 months or less
2. lower prices on DD
3. faster sales on old games to price out GS

IMO that would fix most of the issues with the least amount of cunsumer backlash (versus no used games on the next Xbox type rumor).
It would also better reflect market values.
And it would help to cut out the used game sales

What data would you suggest I present? What I can point to is the fact that every part of Big Content must contend with the second hand market. All of them. Shoot, the publishing industry always competes with free everyday (a library). You don't see the publishing industry going under, do you?

I can point out that the market currently supports three game consoles, two (soon to be four) handhelds, multiple operating systems (Windows, Mac OS, iOS, Android). A market hurting from used sales couldn't possibly support all of that, but it is happening. An industry that continues to out do itself every year cannot possibly be hurting from used sales. The secondhand market hasn't slowed anyone down, not Hollywood, not the recording industry, not the book publishers, and certainly not the software/gaming developers.

The gaming industry is merely changing with the times, as any industry does as it matures and changes its focus with emerging new technologies.

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]

[QUOTE="QuistisTrepe_"]

It doesn't. So why are you still going on about this topic when you've all but admitted that your premise is critically flawed? The trade off between not needing to open their own retail outlets to sell their own wares and promoting their products evens things out. If you think used games are so terrible, then I'd love to hear your take on buying games at the bargin bin.

QuistisTrepe_

As I said in another post, I support
1. a protection window on new games (no used sales in this time)...6 months or less
2. lower prices on DD
3. faster sales on old games to price out GS

IMO that would fix most of the issues with the least amount of cunsumer backlash (versus no used games on the next Xbox type rumor).
It would also better reflect market values.
And it would help to cut out the used game sales

What data would you suggest I present? What I can point to is the fact that every part of Big Content must contend with the second hand market. All of them. Shoot, the publishing industry always competes with free everyday (a library). I can point out that the market currently supports three game consoles, two (soon to be four) handhelds, multiple operating systems (Windows, Mac OS, iOS, Android). A market hurting from used sales couldn't possibly support all of that, but it is happening.

The gaming industry is merely changing with the times, as any industry does as it matures and changes its focus with emerging new technologies.

If I were you, I would do as I did and have at least a couple sources so that someone in my position could not easily destroy said info.
That way I would refocus this on the core issue of used game sales. But that is just me...you are free to provide what you want marcus

The gaming industry is merely changing with the times, as any industry does as it matures and changes its focus with emerging new technologies.

QuistisTrepe_

[QUOTE="QuistisTrepe_"]

[QUOTE="rawsavon"] I am more than willing to listen (as I have said)...but please present some actual data marcus.

As I said in another post, I support
1. a protection window on new games (no used sales in this time)...6 months or less
2. lower prices on DD
3. faster sales on old games to price out GS

IMO that would fix most of the issues with the least amount of cunsumer backlash (versus no used games on the next Xbox type rumor).
It would also better reflect market values.
And it would help to cut out the used game sales

rawsavon

What data would you suggest I present? What I can point to is the fact that every part of Big Content must contend with the second hand market. All of them. Shoot, the publishing industry always competes with free everyday (a library). I can point out that the market currently supports three game consoles, two (soon to be four) handhelds, multiple operating systems (Windows, Mac OS, iOS, Android). A market hurting from used sales couldn't possibly support all of that, but it is happening.

The gaming industry is merely changing with the times, as any industry does as it matures and changes its focus with emerging new technologies.

If I were you, I would do as I did and have at least a couple sources so that someone in my position could not easily destroy said info.
That way I would refocus this on the core issue of used game sales. But that is just me...you are free to provide what you want marcus

The numbers you posted merely show the costs of game development and the return on investment. Your numbers just don't show the whole story, your claims are based inconclusive data while ignoring many relevant factors. In other words, you're making a broad assumption. This is why I called your claim specious at best. .

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]

[QUOTE="QuistisTrepe_"]

What data would you suggest I present? What I can point to is the fact that every part of Big Content must contend with the second hand market. All of them. Shoot, the publishing industry always competes with free everyday (a library). I can point out that the market currently supports three game consoles, two (soon to be four) handhelds, multiple operating systems (Windows, Mac OS, iOS, Android). A market hurting from used sales couldn't possibly support all of that, but it is happening.

The gaming industry is merely changing with the times, as any industry does as it matures and changes its focus with emerging new technologies.

QuistisTrepe_

If I were you, I would do as I did and have at least a couple sources so that someone in my position could not easily destroy said info.
That way I would refocus this on the core issue of used game sales. But that is just me...you are free to provide what you want marcus

The numbers you posted merely show the costs of game development and the return on investment. Your numbers just don't show the whole story, your claims are based inconclusive data while ingoring many relevant factors. In other words, you're making a broad assumption. This is why I called your claim specious at best. .

feel free to give us 'the rest of story'

rawsavon

Well if used games are hurting the industry, what about other such factors like game rentals? People can rent, decide they didn't like the game, and move on. Do we need to put a window on that? Are game rentals killing the industry? How about the people who wait until a game hits the bargain bin until they make a purchase? What to do about that? Does buying a game at a $9.99-$19.99 clearance sale mean so much more to a developer than buying used? I doubt it. Sharing games amongst friends, more lost sales, right?

Sales data and production numbers cannot possibly hope to account for all of that. Therefore, they cannot prove the losses that a developer takes the hit on. But you knew all this and you continue to fall back on your inconclusive data. I wonder why that is?

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]

feel free to give us 'the rest of story'

QuistisTrepe_

Well if used games are hurting the industry, what about other such factors like game rentals? People can rent, decide they didn't like the game, and move on. Do we need to put a window on that? Are game rentals killing the industry? How about the people who wait until a game hits the bargain bin until they make a purchase? What to do about that? Does buying a game at a $9.99-$19.99 clearance sale mean so much more to a developer than buying used? I doubt it. Sharing games amongst friends, more lost sales, right?

Sales data and production numbers cannot possibly hope to account for all of that. Therefore, they cannot prove the losses that a developer takes the hit on. But you knew all this and you continue to fall back on your inconclusive data. I wonder why that is?

[QUOTE="Gamefan1986"]

Two things:

First, developers keep complaining that making games this gen is so much more expensive than before....who's fault is that exactly? No one is pointing guns at dev's heads and saying to spend 30 million to make one game. If they do that, that is their own choice/fault.

Second, Used games does not hurt the industry, period. Anyone who says different is either an idiot or they are trying to brainwash someone. For a game to get to the retail level, retailers need to buy the games from the publisher, and then they stock the game.

When you buy MvC3 at Walmart, you are NOT giving Capcom $60, you are giving WALMART $60 and then WALMART takes that $60 and puts it into the WALMART bank account to recover the money that they spent buying 50,000 copies of the game from Capcom.

Therefore, if you see a game outside of a giant warehouse, then the Devs have already been paid, because the Dev's and publishers get their money by selling the games to retailers. Retailers are the customers to them, not us.

rawsavon

They get paid by shipping games to retailers, what happens after that has absolutely no bearing on them, people can't buy a game used if some retailer somewhere didn't already pay for it. Now if they are having problems with their stock then they can either not produce as many units or make better games that retailers will sell out of and want to order more of.

Don't you find it odd that a company that makes average games like Volition saying no used games would be awesome, and a company who's most recent game was excellent (The Witcher 2) saying used games aren't bad and that DRM is crap like a week later?

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="Gamefan1986"]

Two things:

First, developers keep complaining that making games this gen is so much more expensive than before....who's fault is that exactly? No one is pointing guns at dev's heads and saying to spend 30 million to make one game. If they do that, that is their own choice/fault.

Second, Used games does not hurt the industry, period. Anyone who says different is either an idiot or they are trying to brainwash someone. For a game to get to the retail level, retailers need to buy the games from the publisher, and then they stock the game.

When you buy MvC3 at Walmart, you are NOT giving Capcom $60, you are giving WALMART $60 and then WALMART takes that $60 and puts it into the WALMART bank account to recover the money that they spent buying 50,000 copies of the game from Capcom.

Therefore, if you see a game outside of a giant warehouse, then the Devs have already been paid, because the Dev's and publishers get their money by selling the games to retailers. Retailers are the customers to them, not us.

Gamefan1986

They get paid by shipping games to retailers, what happens after that has absolutely no bearing on them, people can't buy a game used if some retailer somewhere didn't already pay for it. Now if they are having problems with their stock then they can either not produce as many units or make better games that retailers will sell out of and want to order more of.

Don't you find it odd that a company that makes average games like Volition saying no used games would be awesome, and a company who's most recent game was excellent (The Witcher 2) saying used games aren't bad and that DRM is crap like a week later?

[QUOTE="BranKetra"][QUOTE="rawsavon"] I have outlined the issues in numerous threads (market price of games, production costs, user base, etc...all backed up with figures). No one listens or cares. All they think is 'evil corporation charging too much and trying to limit them'...they don't think about how they are killing their hobbyrawsavon

I think the main problem here is the direction that the gaming industry is taking. If it costs too much, use an alternative, like the Wii or something. With just about everything, the core mechanics are most important. Look at a game series that does well, such as Street Fighter, Virtua Fighter, or Mario. They may have new additions, but the core principles are always the same. It's the basics that made them all so successful. In this generation, gaming is moving closer towards photorealistic graphics. However the gameplay of popular franchises really hasn't changed all that much, in my opinion. Continued improvement is always ideal, but if it's going to do the industry worse overall with the rise of game maker-responses like a console only accepting new games, it should be fixed before it ruins everything.

TL;DR: I think the real problem is what the industry is putting its money into making. Photorealistic graphics have already proven that they add another layer to gameplay. For example, the Splinter Cell games did an excellent job incorporating light and darkness into the stealth gameplay. If they could figure out a better way to utilize graphics so it doesn't cost as much, maybe it would help curb the damage used game sales is doing. That might be why you see Unreal Engine 2 in a lot of games this gen.

The only difference (which may be a big one) between used movies/Cds and video games is that a new video game costs 60 dollars whereas a new cd or dvd costs about 15 or 20 bucks. The story is BS though, because most people wouldn't buy EVERY game brand new. More than half the games I buy are used because they are usually less than half the cost of buying it new. Most people do what I do as well, at least most of the people I know. It helps keep people interested in the games they play, which increases the chances of a sequel, so they buy those too. Plus with how expensive DLC is, which a lot of people buy, studios shouldn't complain.

@BranKetra:

You can't really believe that buying used hurts the industry, right?

@bran ^I agree that development costs are a HUGE issue same as I think the yankees are bad for baseball The problem is that when one company goes that way with huge sales, people follow suit -people reply 'let them go out of business' then -but do gamers really want so few developers I think there are numerous things that 'should' be 1. development costs lower...but that would also mean gamers not expecting/demanding said production values 2. gamers willing to pay more for games (at least meet inflation) 3. some give and take...real DLC is fine and can extend games, but locking things on the disk is balls...someone always screws it up 4. etc but such is the difference b/w what should be and what is ...gamers demand more, business push forward, people want things on the cheap, business will look to use a system to gauge consumers... So I try and look for the best realistic solutionsrawsavon

Your first point is part of what I was getting at when I was mentioned the direction gaming is taking. Actually, your second point is, too. A lot of people seem to have difficulty coping with change. It seems to be a common thing. My point is, the production values shouldn't be a selling point. Like in politics. If it's good, it's good. However, I understand that people go where the money is. So, it's a win-lose situation.

I also look for the same kinds of solutions, but I do consider highly unlikely ones if it's worth looking into. That's why I like getting Indie games every now and then. Do you remember Alien Hominid? That was basically a contra clone, but it had small beginnings. I like how when Sony first released the PS3, one of the branch company heads encouraged Indie developers to bring their games to the PSN. They may not be as popular or as profitable as Final Fantasy, but it opens doors for people who otherwise couldn't compete with the household names.

feel free to give us 'the rest of story'

rawsavon

You know what, I had a response typed out here and I decided that you're just not worth it.

@BranKetra:

You can't really believe that buying used hurts the industry, right?

garland51

[QUOTE="Gamefan1986"]

[QUOTE="rawsavon"] first point is a pretty simplistic view. it is true. it is just not telling the whole truth. -were there one company, it would be the whole truth. -but with multiple companies, you have 'follow the leader' issues...kind of like what happens in baseball where teams spend more b/c the yankees (though, admittedly, that is a very flawed analogy) -so some company keeps putting out 'uncharted' level games at high budgets and others follow suit to keep up... -it is still their choice. but sometimes there is no 'right' choice to be made second point, let us pretend there were no used sales that would mean more new sales...though this is not 1:1 (just like with piracy)...some would buy, some would not that would mean more initial units shipped to 'walmart' to cover the increased sales -so used sales do hurt (especially at first) -but LET ME BE CLEAR...I am not saying everyone that buys used would buy new...only that some would (that 'some' is debatable)rawsavon

They get paid by shipping games to retailers, what happens after that has absolutely no bearing on them, people can't buy a game used if some retailer somewhere didn't already pay for it. Now if they are having problems with their stock then they can either not produce as many units or make better games that retailers will sell out of and want to order more of.

Don't you find it odd that a company that makes average games like Volition saying no used games would be awesome, and a company who's most recent game was excellent (The Witcher 2) saying used games aren't bad and that DRM is crap like a week later?

How many places do you think actually sell used games? I can only think of like 3 or 4 off the top of my head besides Gamestop, which is completely dwarfed by the number of stores that sell new games so there's virtually no way that can have an effect on shipment orders.

And if they still insist on complaining about how much money they are or aren't making, they can always make games that people want to spend $60 on, or at the very least release their game at a time when it might actually sell, I mean seriously, how many games do we see come out in October or November just to get crushed by the heavy hitters when they could have sold much better if they came out when there wasn't as much competition.

Sounds to me they should just go digital.

King9999

And if they still insist on complaining about how much money they are or aren't making, they can always make games that people want to spend $60 on, or at the very least release their game at a time when it might actually sell, I mean seriously, how many games do we see come out in October or November just to get crushed by the heavy hitters when they could have sold much better if they came out when there wasn't as much competition.

Gamefan1986

I get what devs are complaining about, but to say that used games are kiling the industry is pretty ridiculous in my opinion. I know Gamestop is considered bad and evil, but we all seem to forget the impact they've had in making video games available on practically every street corner. There are Gamestops EVERYWHERE and while they do sell used games, they also bring in a ton of new game sales.Just look at how much they push preorders. All of those preorders are money in the devs pockets as long as you don't cancel it. Gamestop, along with Best Buy and Walmart have played a huge role in bringing video games to the masses.

With that said, I think the biggest issue is that gaming is entering the same place that movies/tv/music/books are in. So many people want a piece of the pie and want to hit it big, but due to saturation of the mariket, only a handful see that success. There are so many games that come out, and due the limit in the amount of time and money we have, only a handful of those games are going to be big hits.

I also think this is an issue with the whole publishing structure of this industry. When you look at how much money the console manufaters get on top of the amount of cash the publishers get, developers are only getting pennies on the dollar. You see the same thing in the music industry. Artists get screwed so bad by the record labels that unless you go gold or platinum, you aren't gonna make much off an album (touring is how most of them make their cash). Devs are in the same boat in gaming. Unfortunately publishers have the power and until that changes, we are going to continue to see devs fail.

In regards to used games specifically, I think it helps more than people are willing to admit. First off, the comparisons to piracy are ridiculous and uncalled for. Frankly is makes devs who say it sound like an immature child. With that said, used games helps bring in more people into the industry. People who get certain games used could very well end up getting future releases new in the future. Think about somebody who maybe finds a used copy of Mass Effect or Mass Effect 2 for $10, rather than the full retail price. The lower price got them in the door, they play the game, fall in love and then drop $60 on the preorder for Mass Effect 3. Without the ability to get the older games cheaper, they probaly would never have purchased Mass Effect 3. Used games makes more games available and that in turn helps sell future titles. It's worked for me a number of times. In addition, buiying new games and being able to sell them back makes many of us able to buy way more new games. Without any of these options provided by the used market, people are going to be much more picky about purchases, where I think even more than before, only the big names and major titles will get good sales. If renting is killed as well, even more so.

Finally, regarding digital distribution, I think most gamers live in a bubble. Most of us who are into gaming enough to where we post on forums are also going to make getting the best quality high speed internet a priority. For the general population, who make up a huge chunk of the gaming market, don't really care. Plus there are still many people without good affordable high speed internet options, especially in rural areas in the US. Therefore, making us purchase Xbox 720 or PS4 games online only, which will probaly be 20-30 GB a pop is going to take a lot of people out of the market. After eliminating all those who don't even hook up their Xbox 360 or PS3 online, many don't have to the connection to download a game of that size unless they leave their system on for week. Add in the bandwidth caps that exist overseas and I feel will eventually reach us in the US (Comcast already has a 250 GB limit that will cause you to get dropped from their service if you go over it twice in six months) and digital distribution is going to really limit how many games we can buy, who can buy these games, and who can download them in a reasonable amount of time. Digital distrubtion as an option is fine, but as the only option, not a chance right now.

[QUOTE="King9999"]

Sounds to me they should just go digital.

Randolph

Companies ARE dieing...very fast. rawsavon

We can't forget bandwidth caps. How many games are we going to be able to get at 20-30 GB each if you have to worry about going over your monthly limit?

Complete and total bullsh!t. Every single industry that is in the business of selling entertainment goods has a second-hand market. Video games aren't special in this regard and shouldn't be treated any differently.AcidSoldner

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]

feel free to give us 'the rest of story'

QuistisTrepe_

You know what, I had a response typed out here and I decided that you're just not worth it.

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="Gamefan1986"]

They get paid by shipping games to retailers, what happens after that has absolutely no bearing on them, people can't buy a game used if some retailer somewhere didn't already pay for it. Now if they are having problems with their stock then they can either not produce as many units or make better games that retailers will sell out of and want to order more of.

Don't you find it odd that a company that makes average games like Volition saying no used games would be awesome, and a company who's most recent game was excellent (The Witcher 2) saying used games aren't bad and that DRM is crap like a week later?

Gamefan1986

How many places do you think actually sell used games? I can only think of like 3 or 4 off the top of my head besides Gamestop, which is completely dwarfed by the number of stores that sell new games so there's virtually no way that can have an effect on shipment orders.

And if they still insist on complaining about how much money they are or aren't making, they can always make games that people want to spend $60 on, or at the very least release their game at a time when it might actually sell, I mean seriously, how many games do we see come out in October or November just to get crushed by the heavy hitters when they could have sold much better if they came out when there wasn't as much competition.

[QUOTE="King9999"]

Sounds to me they should just go digital.

Randolph

Digital distribution is only going to grow from here, and it's been proven to be profitable. You talk about how developers need to adapt; well, it's the same for us gamers too. The limited audience you speak of will only get wider.

Nintendo seems to be doing just fine, maybe more of them need to follow that business model and ship complete quality games that appeal to everyone.Randolph

Digital distribution is only going to grow from here, and it's been proven to be profitable. You talk about how developers need to adapt; well, it's the same for us gamers too. The limited audience you speak of will only get wider.

King9999

We've got another two gens minimum before a console goes all digital from MS or Sony. Unless they manage to stretch the next gen out even wider than this one. (which I would not mind)

[QUOTE="King9999"]

Digital distribution is only going to grow from here, and it's been proven to be profitable. You talk about how developers need to adapt; well, it's the same for us gamers too. The limited audience you speak of will only get wider.

Randolph

We've got another two gens minimum before a console goes all digital from MS or Sony. Unless they manage to stretch the next gen out even wider than this one. (which I would not mind)

Here's the thing though: who says that the games need to be huge, or even AAA titles to be a success? There are several successful digital games right now that won't bring your connection to its knees. Also, don't forget that digital games are not limited to consoles and PCs. I don't think waiting for the infrastructure to improve is the right thing to do when digital games are hot now. Going back to the original topic, if these companies are so hellbent on fighting the used game market, they should just go digital instead of using online passes or whatever's the latest trend that pisses off consumers. I think the issue goes beyond the used-game market, though; these companies really should be eliminating the middle man (i.e. retailers) if they want to be profitable and keep their jobs. Used games have been around since the beginning, so why fight it now? If you're worried about money, stop dealing with the likes of GameStop for shelf space.

Here's the thing though: who says that the games need to be huge, or even AAA titles to be a success? There are several successful digital games right now that won't bring your connection to its knees. Also, don't forget that digital games are not limited to consoles and PCs. I don't think waiting for the infrastructure to improve is the right thing to do when digital games are hot now. Going back to the original topic, if these companies are so hellbent on fighting the used game market, they should just go digital instead of using online passes or whatever's the latest trend that pisses off consumers. I think the issue goes beyond the used-game market, though; these companies really should be eliminating the middle man (i.e. retailers) if they want to be profitable and keep their jobs. Used games have been around since the beginning, so why fight it now? If you're worried about money, stop dealing with the likes of GameStop for shelf space.

King9999

A lot of full time employed people like me would. But then I'd also have to go get MS point cards since I don't like leaving my info on any service post Sony hacker incident. So I'd actually like to see Sony and MS adopt a Ninty like system where you enter your information over again every time you purchase points, and it doesn't save that info. Would make me feel a lot better. Hell, I have over one hundred games downloaded to my 360.