What aspects of the RPG genre do you like?

RPG's have been around for a long time. I'd like to know from everybody what their favorite aspects of the genre are? How can these things be improved? Mine are as follows.

The ability to level up: Leveling up is one of my favorite things about RPG's. The ability to see how much work you put into strengthening a character or a party is a great way to portray progress. In my opinion though, I believe there should either be no leveling system, or no cap on the amount of levels achievable (there should at most be a soft cap).

Equipment Customization: Being able to customize everything on your body allows players to express themselves through games. Like leveling up, equipment offers a way for players to show the dedication they put into a game. Donning a piece of legendary gear that nobody has is a great feeling. In some games, though, the rarest pieces of equipment are just the opposite of their type; rare. In popular RPG's most high end players have the SAME GEAR, or are at least striving to obtain the same gear.

Classes/skill trees: Games that offer a vague path for your character to progress in are my favorite. Grinding and leveling up in order to obtain that skill that will give you the edge in battle can be addicting. I think games these days are seriously limiting the amount of classes the game should have. In my opinion, Final Fantasy XI had the best class system simply because there were so many! I think the game has upwards of 30 character classes now? The more classes the better because that will help players to stand out more.

PVP: In my honest opinion, I think all PvP in the latest MMO's are terrible. It's not as cutthroat as it should be. Current PvP should alter their name for PvP to PvP: battlegrounds. Games like Ultima and Tibia had THE BEST PvP system. Anybody could kill anybody almost anywhere (there are safe zones in town so you can't be attacked by players). When you die, there is a chance that you will lose your gear, allowing the player that killed you to take it. There is a penalty for murder though. The more people you kill, the more you have a chance to get a red skull, which allows ANYONE to attack and kill you without consequence. Also, all of your gear drops no matter what.

Quests: I love questing in games, but i hate the fact that all quest givers have a damn question mark or exclamation mark over their head. You are also literally told the exact path to complete your quest, whether aided by an NPC or some form arrow on your map. Final Fantasy XI had a great quest system, as you actually had to go around town and converse with the NPC's in order to obtain quests (No question marks over NPC heads meant you had to talk to ALL the NPC's). There was also a fame system that forced you to do a lot of quests with certain factions in order to obtain harder quests with better loot.

The way RPG's, or atleast MMORPG's are going these days, they won't be around much longer. They're becoming so easy that anybody, including children can play them. The amount of competition offered is atrocious. Content also seems to be lacking in story. I'm very disappointed at the state of games these days, and it's caused me to lose passion for something I once loved and used as a form of escape. How can one escape in a world where you're literally told exactly what to do? It's too much like the real world.

Leveling up, gaining more powerful spells, equipping stronger armour and weapons, fighting a wide variety of enemies and bosses, and the story told in them.

Levelling up. It's really addicting.

lol Have you noticed you left out gameplay ?

This is why games like Skyrim and Mass Effect can score well no matter whats wrong with the gameplay. Gameplay means nothing to Role Playing.

Anyway, lets commence with the Bashing.

1) Leveling up: Leveling Up Sucks, its also too specific, the more general concept is Progression or Character Developement. And leveling up statistically is only just one way of accomplishing that. The reason people only know it as leveling up is because back in the Table Top days there was literally no other way to execute progression and developement than to use numbers.... Fast foward to today and we still track progress statistically even though, thanks to modern technology, theres other, more accurate ways of doing it now. But they require actuall work and mechanics, developers don't want that. Rejoice in the fact that leveling is a process of grinding and not one actual skill. It requires your time and nothing else.

2) Customization: autonomy is good, you get to decide exactly how you want your character to be, both numerically and cosmetically, but not Practically. It doesn't change the Underlying Mechanics of the game.... just how you perceive them. Its called the "All Swords are The Same Trope" Trope and it basicly means the weapon with in a category all function the same way no matter what attributes they have. It doesn't change your skill set, it just means your gunsword deals 100D fire damage now instead of 20D Lightning damage. its more like math than it is gameplay.

3) Classes/Skill Trees: Again too Specific, lets just lump Customization and Classes/Skill Trees into The more general Term Specialization or Again, Character Developement. Anyway, the Problem with Classess and Skills is they only work in theory.... The "theory" being the game's lore or mythology. In execution they're all the same... JRPG and MMORPGs being the ultimate violaters since most of them represent actions in combat menus on screen instead of game mechanics. As mentioned before, Role Playing has nothing to do with gameplay, you pick the task you want and the character performs the action themselves. All thats required from the player is an order and the character does the rest, the proficiency or capability with which they complete that task is dependent on number checking. Fighter, Sorcecer, Rogue, buffer, debuffer, etc all of them play the same and all their skills are the same, its just a numbers game combined with Mythology that dictates what these numbers do. In shooting games, theres no numbers, the process of lining up the target in your sights and pulling the trigger is an actual skill, and completely organic, purely dependent on the player's ability to aim and squeeze.

Final Fantasy on the other hand is figuring which numbers are more important than others to achieve success.

PvP: This is not a RPG characteristic and even if it was... All the above mentioned things ruin PvP. What do think is gona happen when a level 5 character takes on a level 10 character ?

But most Importantly.... Role Playing isn't even a genre.... Its a formula, thats why you stamp "Role Playing Elements" on to just about anything from Action RPGs to Life Simulation RPGs.

So if you were to define this Formula into simple words then

Role Playing the Process of Building and Defining a character/s.

All RPG characteristics Fall into this category one way or another thanks how vague the concept is. So if You get a Chess RPG then its Chess a game where you build and define a character that plays chess or building and defining the chess pieces themselves. If you have an Action RPG, then its an Action Game where you build and Define a character... How this happens is irrelavent.

This also means that Role Playing cannot stand on its own as a genre or even a game.... It will always be a formula that you apply to an actual genre... It has no mechanics, no right and wrong, its just a simple formula.

Strip away the Role Playing from any RPG and you will definately find a genre underneath it, even for old school RPGs. Just like Open World is also a formula that can be applied to anything, strip away the Open World from any game and there will be enough left to classify a genre.

The constant sense of progression, customization, they often have good stories, too.

@Lulu_Lulu: although I agree with you about certain things, I disagree with you about a lot. I'll get back to you with a retort soon when I feel like typing some shit out lol.

I was always a fan of action RPGs; exploration, loot, leveling, stat building, character development, dynamic branching story and an epic main quest chain. I usually prefer to play with a solitary hero rather than a managing a group.

At the same time, I can't stand interactive books, with the exception of Planescape: Torment. Beyond having very simple and shallow gameplay mechanics, they are written like virtual penny dreadfuls; they focus on more than likely generic story but have no overarching theme or relevance to anything, yet people like to gloss over them and complain how modern RPGs "have bland characters, plot holes and the writing of babies"

@ bobbo888

I had so much pent up critism bottled up inside me. It all came out at once. :p

Byshop is gona flip when he sees this. :p

everybody buys them. hence, they have a familiar seat among the bargain bin. accordingly 9 billion hours of game play for 2 dollars. then i never play them.

Leveling up: KOTOR's attributes/skills/feats/forcepowers offers some high-level customizability I've yet to see in another game. Fallout is close with Special/skills/perks, but KOTOR's is considerably easier to use.

This, and the amount of content they usually offer. Don't have to regret buying them at full price.

Leveling up, having more party members, story/dialogue, the turned based aspect of some games that the genre has to offer.

And here is the thing I hate the most in rpgs- Those freaking random encounters.

There a many aspects of the role-playing game genre that I like. In RPGs I have enjoyed, characters typically progress intellectually in their respective plots along with leveling up. Some games like Final Fantasy Tactics require the player's character to be at or near certain levels of battle capability in order to progress. Next, I like the ability to choose what to do next. For example, in Fallout 2, I as a player could talk my way through the game or fight with guns blazing. Besides those aspects of RPGs, graphics are usually something I really like about them. Epic music is a preferred and overall atmosphere is a huge factor (See: Demon Souls or Final Fantasy VIII).

Equipment customization and just...that sense of progression, you know?

Non linear gameplay customisation of character and weapons/armour, usually good involving story, able to make decisions that effect the story.

@GiantAssPanda: That's very true. RPGs are one of the only types of games where I don't feel bad paying full price simply because I can usually squeeze many hours out of them (some of the RPGs on 3DS alone have upwards of 60- 70 hours of content, not counting New Game+). It's one of the reasons I love the genre (although sometimes in lesser RPGs you can tell the developers are padding for time). Plus, the best ones are usually replayable thanks to different customization options.

@BranKetra: It's a tough call, but I'd have to say Final Fantasy Tactics is one of the best SRPG games ever made. It's challenging (the first few times you play), has an insane amount of customization, hidden gems, a serious amount of recruitable characters. The job system that Squaresoft implemented in FFT is one of my favorite things in any RPG.

I know exactly how you feel, I too am tired of how games are these days, as well as how they are becoming...

I miss the good ol' days when games were all about true unadulterated (non cinematic) truly immersive gameplay.

A time when game developers were more passionate about their craft and about the whole point of what games are all about... pure gameplay, just pure interactive gameplay and not cinematic cut scene heavy crap that takes away from the experience.

I don't know if anything I said really makes sense to you, but that's just how I feel...

I really do agree with you on pretty much everything you said about how you feel about how games are today... I too have lost a lot passion in one of my favorite pass-times.

Overall, I guess it's just nice to see someone today who likes and misses the old-school ways of gaming... I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth, that's just what I picked up from what you were saying.

@turtlethetaffer: I just recently discovered the RPG goodness on the 3ds. I think this is the platform where we will see content filled RPGs re-emerge from the days of old lol.

Just two things for me

A deep and involving story with difficult choices to make that lead to different outcomes and endings.

Fun and strategic gameplay in a battle, and lots of places to explore out of battle.

I honestly don't care much for leveling up or customization. Id rather have a pre designed character who has a likeable personality and cool look than create my own boring character. That's just me though

You asked "RPG", but almost all of the elements you describe or dislike seem to pertain to MMOs specifically which I would call a separate category. A lot of the things that I really like in RPGs are absent from MMOs because they don't work with the MMO formula. Overly simplistic quests distributed by "quest giver" NPCs with icons over their heads, PvP, Gear disparities between players, etc are all MMO traits. You seem to be talking about RPG and MMORPG in the same breath, but they are very, very different.

So if your question is "what do you like about MMOs" then my specific answer is "not much" because it's not one of my favorite genres and the MMOs that I've enjoyed are the ones that most closely try to emulate single player RPGs. If the question is what do I like about single player RPGs, here are those answers:

1) Character customization - The ability to tailor your character's capabilities to suit your play style. You see this in games like Fallout 1/2/3/NV, Deus Ex 1/2/HR, Wasteland 1/2, Shadowrun Returns, etc. Your character has multiple attributes and they determine how you interact with the world. Make your character smart enough, observant enough, and charismatic enough then you can avoid combat altogether. I like the idea of options and conversational choices that only exist for you if your character has the skills to get them. Likewise, you can balance that out by making your character dumb as a post in exchange for more strength or combat prowess. Hell, I Fallout 1 and 2 if you made your character's intelligence under 4 it changed -literally- every conversation option you had in the game so moronic grunts and every NPC treated you like an idiot.

2) Branching quests/multiple solution - The ability to have different outcomes to quests that affect the story. The idea that these might be based on choices you make or even how you built your character (some puzzles might be solved by physical strength or hacking if you aren't strong enough).

3) Non-linear story progression - This is something that's usually specific to the RPG genre.

-Byshop

@Lulu_Lulu: Although I had left out gameplay, it was not my intention. In fact, everything I listed are elements of RPG gameplay. I definitely understand that some RPG's require significantly less manual twitch skills, but they definitely require a grasp of strategy, they require you to think outside the box, and offer a sense of depth that a modern shooter just does not offer. Yes, stripped down to the bones RPG's are a numbers game, but a shooter stripped down is just a worse shooter. That's all there is to it; pointing and clicking. Don't get me wrong I play plenty of FPS, but they just don't give me that sense of satisfaction that an RPG can. I couldn't sit and get lost in a shooter like I can with an RPG.

1) I like your ending statement about leveling up. I don't like to think that it doesn't require any skill; although I do agree that it takes a lot of time. I think of grinding for levels as practice. Although it doesn't require much skill in itself, the character you're playing as is obtaining skill in order to overcome the next obstacle.

2) Your stance of RPG's is incredibly interesting. It's really making me think lol. You're definitely right about weapon mechanics. There's usually only a few sets of weapons (axes, swords, staves), they tend to only slightly deviate in the way they are used, and all the swords will swing the same, all the axes will swing the same, etc. The thing you're leaving out is the reason for the implementation of different weapons classes; different weapons have certain advantages over others. This adds a little more depth to combat. It's definitely a lot of math, but not all math. There's many underlying concepts you seem to be leaving out that are prevalent in all RPGs.

3) I don't agree that they all function the same. There are different types of classes i.e healer, dps, tank. Within these subgroups are classes like priest, warriors, druids, mage. Although every class within one of those subgroups virtually function the same, the ways they implement their skills are different and offer a sense of strategy. This is why I like the idea of having many classes; it adds more potential strategy. I love the idea of figuring out the best build for a party and trying out all different class types. I don't like the comparison to shooters. Shooters are all numbers too, in a greater sense than RPGs. You point and click, if you hit your bullet does a certain amount of damage. All shooters do this. For example, CS GO, you start with 100 life. You take a shot from an AK-47 in the chest you take typically 30-40 damage. Now if you were hit in the head you'd be dead. Numbers. CoD... literally the same concept. Battlefield. All shooters are pretty much the same, especially in concept. I find that it's hard to find distinguishing qualities in shooters.

PvP: PvP is definitely an RPG characteristic. It's one of my favorite aspects of RPGs. Of course a level 10 character is going to defeat a level 5 character, but that's why there's level caps and a level 5 character would never be placed in combat with a level 10 character. In my opinion though that's fine; the level 5 character that gets killed is saying in his head "okay now I really gotta haul ass get some levels and some gear and defeat that guy!" I don't like level caps. I've played MMO's with no level caps or limits on PvP and they're so much more fun than typical MMO's like WoW.

Idk why you say it's not a genre. With your logic you can turn that around and call it an RPG with shooter elements. RPG is definitely 100% its own genre. These days though so many genres have combined that it's hard to distinguish between them.

I think there's a lot more to RPGs than you're leading on to. Games like Chrono Trigger; I dunno how you could call that anything other than an RPG. Super Mario RPG. Final Fantasy VII.

Thanks for your reply! I appreciate your input :)

@bobbo888: Well there are plenty of great RPGs with lots of content on DS and GBA too. But yeah 3DS definitely has some great ones like Fire Emblem awakening and Shin Megami Tensei IV.

@BlackGenjii: Nah man you're spot on. The thing about games these days is that they put so much into the production value and so little in to the actual game. The last great RPG in my opinion was final fantasy X. After that they pretty much all went downhill. Games like chrono trigger, final fantasy tactics... when has there been a game that can compare to the story and content of these games? It's all about graphics and over the top cut-scenes. Although I can't say I don't LOVE the cinematics of the latest games, I think too much effort is put in to these and not the actual game. This is why I believe that the JRPG and RPG scene in general will see a major reprisal on the 3DS with the success of Bravely Default and Fire Emblem: Awakening.

@Byshop: Haha I guess you're right, I did talk a lot about MMO RPG aspects. Those just happen to be my favorite things about the broad genre of RPG. I talked more about single player RPG's in my comments further down from my initial post. Thanks for responding though! Non-linear story is one of the best things about RPGs. The ability to have more control over what's going on is very appealing when it comes to video games.

@bobbo888: Check out Radiant Historia and Xenoblade Chronicles. Both those games are amazing in their own ways. And even though Xenoblade is pretty cut scene heavy, it actually has great gameplay and enjoyable exploration to back it up. Let me put it this way... With Xenoblade, gameplay was not sacrificed to place the cut scenes in the game.

Freedom, dialogue and moral choices.

I like how I am the one deciding on my character(s) role in the game play. I like t have a large am meaning choices to make about my characters. Let me have detailed control over the character role in the game play which include: abilities, gear and stats.

Interactive stories are becoming the bane of all RPGs. In fact give me linear story and premade character and you improved most RPG.

I know some will try to say you can just grid your way to success but then again you can cheese your way through any games.

That is one of my favorite games. I also like Valkyria Chronicles. Those are classics.

It's not that I hate MMOs, but it's that most of the things that I like about RPGs don't work in the MMO formula so to me an MMO feels like the worst elements of an RPG.

They always feel to me like an amusement park rather than a real place. That sacred quest that you have to undertake to save the town takes on less significance when you have to wait in line behind the first 20 chosen ones who got there ahead of you.

-Byshop

@ bobbo888

I appreciate you amusing my ramblings. It bugs everyone. :p

1) I think we've reached an agreeable conclusion here. The only issue is how this affects non combat situations, stuff like lock picking, dialog, hacking, etc.

2)Well.... I don't particularly agree.... This is where I usaully play my "RPG is not a genre though" although combat is a common feature, how it is implimented is not, ergo, the manner in which you swing your sword, is a feature of an Action Game, the effect it has, the attributes that are involved in this process, thats the roleplaying. Most of the skills are governed many attributes, not just one. Take Dark Souls for an Example, Strip away the Action and Tactics and you're left with a strategic numbers game like those indicative of turnbased based strategy game.... Strip away that strategy and you're left with just the numbers... That is what Role Playing is.

3) Well if it offers a sense of Stratefy then its pretty much a Strategy Game.

Also you're right, its hard to distinguish shooters apart... Its not just shooters, its Racers, Fighters, Platformers. They are easily identifyable by the mechanics they use and in the context they use them. Some people like to believe that a platformer is more than just about moving inbetween platforms.. But it isn't, thats the minimum requirement to achieve that genre.

4) allright, I think I was wrong about PvP.

I can say its not a genre.... A shooter is easy to Identify because it has shooting in it. And any other genre that Splices itself with an Shooting is not hard to distinguish.

An RPG and Open World are Prettymuch the Same. They arent governed by clear and precise rules like other genres are. Hence even if you remove the base Genre from an RPG or an OWG (open world game) then you'l be left with an entity behind.... But will most certainly not be a genre, perhaps you can have just an Open World world alone. But you can't just Role Play... Well you could but we already have a term for that, "Make Believe". So according to my Defintion: The process of Defining and Developing a Character is essentially make Believe. And make believe has no wrong or right, has no rules. If you do add rules then thats where the real Genres like Strategy or Action come into play. And thats essentially what Chrono Trigger or Super Mario RPG or Final Fantasy is.

Oh I another thing I'd like to add is side affect of Role Playing games. Unlike other genres Role Playing Games don't want to connect the player to the game.... Infact its trying to seperate the two even further. Take shooting for Example, in a normal game the only thing seperating the player from the gameplay is the controller, however the right stick and triggers do a decent job of "filling in" for the real thing.

An RPG would do the exact same thing but wedge in Attributes like "Accuracy" in between you and the gameplay, so now your skills don't quite transfer over as much, add about 50 of these attribute wedges and you essentially know the difference between Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2. Its also allows for things that don't work in gaming to be "simulated", like Charismsa and Persuation Mechanics, they are executed quite poorly.

I couldn't agree more.

I like bringing 6 random dudes into a dungeon, all created by me. Then use their skills to make sure everyone leaves the dungeon alive.

KOTOR is based on the d20 3.5 rulesset but far more restricted compared to what others have. NeverWinter Nights 1 and 2 also follow the D20 ruleset but also allows for multiclassing, advanced classes, multiple races (including subraces), character backrounds, and have far more skills, classes, weapon types, feats and spells than Kotor does. If you loved what Kotor offered you will absolutely love what the NWN games do.

! I know what game I'm going to place next now.

They are great, even if they are "D&D Lite". If you're familiar with the D20 ruleset from 3rd edition onwards then it'll look very familiar. Melee weapon feats become lightsaber feats, etc. I'm always a fan of CRPGs based on pen and paper RPGs because that generally means a much more thought out roleplaying and combat system than in instances where they had to invent one new for the game.

-Byshop

I agree computer RPG that use pen and paper are better than those that do not. I still play to role play through the game play even when I am playing pen and paper RPG.

I've seen a few that were still OK, like Fallout 1 and 2 had a great % based skill system. Wasteland 2 is also looking like it's going to be an awesome game when it's complete. But yeah, the old SSI Goldbox 2nd Edition D&D games back in the 8088 days, NWN 1 and 2, Icewind Dale 1 and 2, Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, the two Vampire games (Redemption and Bloodlines), the various Shadowrun games on various platforms (except for the shitty multiplayer 360 game), were all a lot of fun. I'm bummed that World of Darkness got canned because I would have loved to see another game based on the V:TM world.

-Byshop

@Byshop: I like RPGs based on tabletop rulesets too for the very same reason, more effort can be spent on encounter design too, since there is a generally well known consensus on what types of encounters work well. Temple of Elemental Evil is my favorite implementation yet, probably followed by Knights of the Chalice. Which reminds me of one aspect I really like about the RPG genre that I forgot to bring up. The fact that RPGs do a semidecent job of simulating those tabletop games I barely got to experience because no one wanted to play D&D or any other tabletop. Doesnt match the tabletop experience but at least you can play whenever you want if at all.

@EPICCOMMANDER: Here is a video of the character creation showing it in detail.

It starts with race selection. At 1:30 it showcases subrace selection. At 2:12 it showcases character appearance. At 2:49 it showcases the classes (the grayed out options are the advanced classes). At 3:55 there is the alignment selection (this will be altered throughout the game as you make choices so it isnt static). 4:08 showcases the dieties (which dieties you can choose dephend on your alignment). 4:31 has the attribute allocation. 5:03 shows various character backrounds. And then for some reason the decides to select a preselected build instead of demonstrating the feat and skill selection through the customize button. At 5:49the character is finalized with his character with the name and surname as well as a character biography and voice selection. The right side is cut out so the video doesnt show all the voice selections (which is why you also cant see any class descriptions).

yes I love levelling up your character.

@ sukraj

Ofcourse you do.... But leveling up just isn't fun. Very rewarding... But not fun.

I do find leveling characters to be fun as long as it good and the system does not includes some bad things like the skill trees.

Have you just created a character for a Pen and paper and start leveling that character for the fun of it?

Leveling Up

That's one of my favorite things in the RPG genre. Most of the times it needs lots of time and patience. The player also has to find the best place to level up at that specific moment, forcing him to use his judgement.

Resource Management

A good RPG is one that forces the player to choose when to buy a specific item or equipment. It's better to save money for that awesome sword or spend it all at once for that good shield ? That's the kind of choices that make an RPG interesting to me

Character Customization

It's a fundamental part for me in enjoying an RPG. For this reason, one of the things that frustrate me the most is what I call "Fake Customization". This is how I call it when the game gives you the chance to customize/upgrade the character(s) the way you want, but it eventually forces you to use a specific spell or skill to defeat a boss and advance.... over and over and over.

A good way to do that, it's to give bosses and enemies different weaknesses for the player to discover - or just to make a boss a bit more difficult but not necessarily unbeatable if you decide to use a different tactic than the one you're supposed to use. "Fake Customization" is even more amplified when the game forces you to employ a specific character in your party every time a boss or mini-boss appears.

Choose Your Heroes

I like to choose my "main characters" when possible and stick with them for all the game. For this reason, I find difficult to enjoy those RPGs where your party members are changed by the game all the time. This is one negative thing that is abused quite a bit in many RPGs, one noticeable example is Final Fantasy IV.

@ Crawler3333

"Fake Customization" is one aspect of a category named "Strategic Failures" the most common problem occurs during the Character Creation phase, not all builds are created equally and may force a respec when your specific build finaly hits a brick wall or even worse... Make you start all over again ! The thing is the game will make it seem like its your fault for not being able to see that you might have needed a specific attribute later in the game. This is an unforgivable design flaw because of how much time it wastes.

Mine is character choices and interactive dialogue (dialogue trees). I don't mind leveling up and character customization.

I enjoy all of the stats and numbers and the strategy involved in the battles. Story is also important. Being turn-based isn't a requirement, but I'm a lot more likely to enjoy the game if it is. Most RPGs that focus on real-time combat really suffer from poor gameplay and exploits. I also really like collecting gear and doling it out to a party of characters. I don't care about customizing my character's appearance, but it needs to change when I change my gear, and it's nice if there are multiple races and classes for me to choose, so long as they all play differently.

Customization is always nice and something I look forward to in picking games to play.

Next would have to be environment, including quests and w/e other features there are like World Events.

PVP is nice but... yea... haven't found any system that I absolutely like.

@ PurpleMan5000

Actually Exploitation/Degenerate Strategies are inherent to Role Playing, not to the type of combat they use, Turn-Based Combat is not safe from this phenomenon. Thats sort of whats suppose to happen when you let players fiddle with the numbers.