what is with jrpg hate?

[QUOTE="SteveTabernacle"]

[QUOTE="CarnageHeart"]

Most of the shots at jrpgs are taken by wrpg apologists. They aren't a problem in the real world (as per the usual, FF13 sales were awesome, though a lot of people online spent a lot of effort prior to its Western release tearing it down).streak000

Good point. Their always is a healthy disconnect between internet drama and what actually happens out in the real world, and I'm very glad for it. Not once off the internet do I ever hear all this "JRPGs aren't evolving" (which is just internet forum code word for "JRPGs don't play exactly like WRPGs", as we both know) stuff. In fact, I don't ever hear a J or W at the start of RPG at all off the internet. Nor do I hear half so much about "innovation and freshness", it's just gamers enjoying great games for exactly what they are. Talking games in person is a refreshing experience for me, compared to all the psuedo intellectual fluff and hyperbole we have to put up with here that makes it so hard to know who you can take seriously, and who is just pushing some bizzare internet agenda to influence people.

Just because I'm sick of cliched stories, mind-numbing linearity, grating characters, lack of innovation, and never-ending cut scenes of JRPGs doesn't make me a "WRPG apologist". I'm not defending any cause. I just enjoyed Fallout 3, Mass Effect 1 & 2 and Oblivion more than I did FFXIII, Lost Odyssey and Eternal Sonata. I think it's painfully obvious to everyone but "JRPG apologists" that WRPGs have made great strides in recent years, while JRPGs have largely stagnated and remained stuck in the 90s. I still enjoy turn based and Japanese RPGs, but there is always a slight sense of disappointment when I play one. The wonder I felt while playing FFVII and Vagrant Story on PS1 is missing. I find the choices, morality systems and non-linearity of WRPGs much more enjoyable. I'd love a great JRPG to come out and refresh the genre, but Japanese developers seem stuck in a time warp. They're unwilling or unable to change things up, and the genre is becoming largely irrelevant in the western market (for a very good reason), despite these awesome sales of FFXIII.

And Steve, that's pretty stupid. You're basically condeming people for prefering WRPGs. "Innovation and freshness" are pretty important in videogames. The fact is that most JRPGs are eerily similar to each other, right down to character design and cliched stories. It's only natural for people to get sick of the template eventually...

Hey hey hey...lets not throw around criticisms of bad AI and then put Persona 3 into the mix. I've seen some dumb AI in my times but I've never played a game that only can accidentally kill your party until i played Persona 3. Sad part is, this is a turn based game with bad AI. The main strategy of the game is to find an enemy weakness and try to exploit it yet the computer, especially the enemy AI seems unable to grasp this. I don't know how many times the enemy found that one of my characters was weak against their attack yet spend the next consecutive rounds randomly targeting my characters and even targeting characters that were immune to their attacks a few times afterwards. Anyways you also seem to ignore the complaints that many people have made towards the genre. Persona 3 still involves hours upon hours of grinding, a game play element that's origins date back to the early 1980's, Turn based combat and a cast of cliche characters (strangely the trio of minor antagonists were characters i wouldn't expect to see in a JRPG such as this one) The little boy in capris act of betrayal was handled just like Cait Sith's betrayal back in 1997, meaning just an apology is needed by a misunderstood character and everything is good to go. The only thing actually newish would be the relationship interactions but then adding a fresh spice to a pot of sauce made with all old and stale ingredients doesn't fix the recipe, it just makes it good enough to stand out among the other failed attempts. I don't know anything about VC and lastly Demon Souls would be considered an Action RPG a good one at that but anyways a handful of games (actually 2/3 games you listed) doesn't offset the fact that the majority of JRPG's are stale. I mean take a look at your own comparison. you make a sweeping generalization that WRPG's are a buggy mess then go on to say that a bunch of them are actually really well done. On top of that it seems you've never played Mask of the Betrayer, Drakensang, Risen for PC, Dragon Age and The Witcher. Sooo if naming a few games that fall outside of the mold invalidate one's argument then you've gone and invalidated your own in a single post. Anyways gamers and critics are speaking. They'd prefer a game that tries something new but falls a bit short than see something that's been done, redone and redone for the last ten years. It's not an apology it's just the truth.

Hey hey hey...lets not throw around criticisms of bad AI and then put Persona 3 into the mix. I've seen some dumb AI in my times but I've never played a game that only can accidentally kill your party until i played Persona 3. Sad part is, this is a turn based game with bad AI. The main strategy of the game is to find an enemy weakness and try to exploit it yet the computer, especially the enemy AI seems unable to grasp this. I don't know how many times the enemy found that one of my characters was weak against their attack yet spend the next consecutive rounds randomly targeting my characters and even targeting characters that were immune to their attacks a few times afterwards. Anyways you also seem to ignore the complaints that many people have made towards the genre. Persona 3 still involves hours upon hours of grinding, a game play element that's origins date back to the early 1980's, Turn based combat and a cast of cliche characters (strangely the trio of minor antagonists were characters i wouldn't expect to see in a JRPG such as this one) The little boy in capris act of betrayal was handled just like Cait Sith's betrayal back in 1997, meaning just an apology is needed by a misunderstood character and everything is good to go. The only thing actually newish would be the relationship interactions but then adding a fresh spice to a pot of sauce made with all old and stale ingredients doesn't fix the recipe, it just makes it good enough to stand out among the other failed attempts. I don't know anything about VC and lastly Demon Souls would be considered an Action RPG a good one at that but anyways a handful of games (actually 2/3 games you listed) doesn't offset the fact that the majority of JRPG's are stale. I mean take a look at your own comparison. you make a sweeping generalization that WRPG's are a buggy mess then go on to say that a bunch of them are actually really well done. On top of that it seems you've never played Mask of the Betrayer, Drakensang, Risen for PC, Dragon Age and The Witcher. Sooo if naming a few games that fall outside of the mold invalidate one's argument then you've gone and invalidated your own in a single post. Anyways gamers and critics are speaking. They'd prefer a game that tries something new but falls a bit short than see something that's been done, redone and redone for the last ten years. It's not an apology it's just the truth.

And Steve, that's pretty stupid. You're basically condeming people for prefering WRPGs. "Innovation and freshness" are pretty important in videogames.streak000

The fact is that most JRPGs are eerily similar to each other, right down to character design and cliched stories. It's only natural for people to get sick of the template eventually...streak000

I find the choices, morality systems and non-linearity of WRPGs much more enjoyable. I'd love a great JRPG to come out and refresh the genre, but Japanese developers seem stuck in a time warp.streak000

[QUOTE="Gnosis13"]

The people that I know who don't like JRPGs have never played one. They take one look at the art style and liken it to a saturday morning cartoon and think it is too childish. I try to tell them that they could not be farther from the truth, but they don't ever listen.

UT_Wrestler

Seven of the people I know fall into my last post. Tried to get one of them into Disgaea; he asked why the kid with blue hair was shirtless, and left. I did get a laugh out of that though.

From what I've seen, the hate mostly comes from PC and WRPG fans.

Bigboi500

>3. WRPGs are more enjoyable, due to open-world environment, no linearity, and decision-based choices affect the outcome.

topsemag55

For every choice I have to make, I find myself wondering what I missed by not choosing something else. I don't like it.

JRPGs havn't evolved with the times while WRPGs have.Sins-of-Mosin

How have WPRGs evolved? They are even more stagnate than JRPGs. Fallout 3 just switch range weapons with melee weapons compare to Oblivion. That is the only change they did. Other than Mass effect and Alpha Protocol the rest play just like Oblivion, Gothic, Risen, the Witcher, Baldur's Gate.

Let see what changes have Final Fantasy have since FF7. There is material in FF7, and then the draw system in FF8. 4 character and AP in FF9. In FF10, the sphere grid, and a turn base system. FF11 is a MMO. FF12 combat is in the field. FF13 is different.

Do you mean the Dialog system that have been use in Baldur's Gate and Fallout 3? Alpha Protocol was the first to try something different.

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

From what I've seen, the hate mostly comes from PC and WRPG fans.

M_1_A_M_I

They are fun sometimes but the whole turn based is hard to do right, FF and Fire Emblem are the most notable turn-based JRPGs in my opinon, unfortunately FF organizes turns based on level so only my best characters can move first, my worst characters are more likely to die, with Fire Emblem you get the whole "Friendly Phase" and "Enemy Phase" but if you have a sorceror or archer in the open you have no choice but to hope they last it through the enemy onslaught, your men barely even fight back. At least with WRPGs you can fight back and still have the enemy fight.

I love JRPGs. :D I always have and always will. I'm a fan of both WRPGs and JRPGs. I just like RPGs in general. :) The one thing I don't like is haters. :(

[QUOTE="Sins-of-Mosin"] JRPGs havn't evolved with the times while WRPGs have.wiouds

How have WPRGs evolved? They are even more stagnate than JRPGs. Fallout 3 just switch range weapons with melee weapons compare to Oblivion. That is the only change they did. Other than Mass effect and Alpha Protocol the rest play just like Oblivion, Gothic, Risen, the Witcher, Baldur's Gate.

Let see what changes have Final Fantasy have since FF7. There is material in FF7, and then the draw system in FF8. 4 character and AP in FF9. In FF10, the sphere grid, and a turn base system. FF11 is a MMO. FF12 combat is in the field. FF13 is different.

Do you mean the Dialog system that have been use in Baldur's Gate and Fallout 3? Alpha Protocol was the first to try something different.

I enjoy most of the jrpgs i play, ffvii is what really got me seriously into rpg's in general.

I think the hate is just a bout of overdramatic dislike. I could easily hate on FPS/sport games, but I just say: "I'm not a fan of them". It's that the JRPG genre is incredibly popular, it brings a lot of different people together with contrasting opinions. Thus, it's more prominent when the hate comes along. There's a lot of love for it on the flipside. You just have to go to other boards.

[QUOTE="SteveTabernacle"]

[QUOTE="CarnageHeart"]

Most of the shots at jrpgs are taken by wrpg apologists. They aren't a problem in the real world (as per the usual, FF13 sales were awesome, though a lot of people online spent a lot of effort prior to its Western release tearing it down).streak000

Good point. Their always is a healthy disconnect between internet drama and what actually happens out in the real world, and I'm very glad for it. Not once off the internet do I ever hear all this "JRPGs aren't evolving" (which is just internet forum code word for "JRPGs don't play exactly like WRPGs", as we both know) stuff. In fact, I don't ever hear a J or W at the start of RPG at all off the internet. Nor do I hear half so much about "innovation and freshness", it's just gamers enjoying great games for exactly what they are. Talking games in person is a refreshing experience for me, compared to all the psuedo intellectual fluff and hyperbole we have to put up with here that makes it so hard to know who you can take seriously, and who is just pushing some bizzare internet agenda to influence people.

cut scenes of JRPGs doesn't make me a "WRPG apologist". I'm not defending any cause. I just enjoyed Fallout 3, Mass Effect 1 & 2 and Oblivion more than I did FFXIII, Lost Odyssey and Eternal Sonata. I think it's painfully obvious to everyone but "JRPG apologists" that WRPGs have made great strides in recent years, while JRPGs have largely stagnated and remained stuck in the 90s. I still enjoy turn based and Japanese RPGs, but there is always a slight sense of disappointment when I play one. The wonder I felt while playing FFVII and Vagrant Story on PS1 is missing. I find the choices, morality systems and non-linearity of WRPGs much more enjoyable. I'd love a great JRPG to come out and refresh the genre, but Japanese developers seem stuck in a time warp. They're unwilling or unable to change things up, and the genre is becoming largely irrelevant in the western market (for a very good reason), despite these awesome sales of FFXIII.

And Steve, that's pretty stupid. You're basically condeming people for prefering WRPGs. "Innovation and freshness" are pretty important in videogames. The fact is that most JRPGs are eerily similar to each other, right down to character design and cliched stories. It's only natural for people to get sick of the template eventually...

Both Steve and Carnage are right. JRPGs are more varied than any other role-playing games out there for you not only get to play one type of RPG, there's western role-playing games made by Japanese companies such as Demon's Soul and traditional JRPGs. In addition to that, JRPGs aren't all the same because there are different types of gameplay. There's Action role-playing as well as Strategy and Turn-based. Read my last blog for more ino on the evolution of the Turn-based system in JRPGs.

Neither the stories nor the setting or characters are the same in JRPGs because there are games which are based on mythologies such as Greek, Norse and other myths and ones that are based on books, movies and other type of media not to mention the ones that are original.

Generlization is not the way to go.

not that i dont hate JRPG's but i enjoy WRPG's. i still enjoy the linear stuff but i like WRPG better.

Yeah, it makes no sence to hate JRPG's for being "Cliche". they are no more Cliche then any other genre. Some games in the genre are Cliche, yes, but so are some games in other genres.

JRPGS aren't flashy and in-your-face enough to survive anymore. Immediate gratification seems to be more important to gamers nowadays. It's like our attention spans have been drastically reduced. If you're not shooting at something or watching explosions, you're bored. That's why FF13 is all explosion this, pedophilia that, hey, where am I supposed to go? how 'bout across that long. boring line across your map, it's not like you can go anywhere else. and once you get across, you're rewarded with a 10 minute cutscene, hooray! I guess I'll have to hop on BioWare's RPGs to get my fix now. Even if it's not quite the same.frostybanana

I think there was a secret rule in FFXIII that no cutscene was allowed to surpass 3 min.

i'm an RPG veteren really, i like any thing that falls under the RPG category.

JRPG

WRPG

SRPG

Action RPG

RPS

MMORPG

bottom of line, been there and done that.

I like JRPG's as well as WRPG's. But this Gen has really been lacking in the quality JRPG department, which saddens me.

Both Steve and Carnage are right. JRPGs are more varied than any other role-playing games out there for you not only get to play one type of RPG, there's western role-playing games made by Japanese companies such as Demon's Soul and traditional JRPGs. In addition to that, JRPGs aren't all the same because there are different types of gameplay. There's Action role-playing as well as Strategy and Turn-based. Read my last blog for more ino on the evolution of the Turn-based system in JRPGs.