Where has Square Enix gone wrong with the Final Fantasy series?

[QUOTE="seanehawk"]

True, FF X is linear. But, when you do something, the world and the people in it will react to it. And it is entirely possible to visit the past towns. Whereas, in FF XIII backtracking is basically impossible and and world will never actually change.

Metamania

Exactly. FFXIII relies on the face-pace storytelling and admittedly excellent visuals to give gamers a reason to keep going, but after that...there really isn't much left to do unless you're hunting for trophies or achievements that you missed out on in your previous playthrough.

Admittedly the visuals were pretty and there were parts in the story which i found interesting such as the relationships between Sazh and Dajh, and hope and snow...they were pretty cool.

But i have got to the point where i've beaten the game and i cannot bring myself to go back to Pulse just to do those sidequests :P

I want a game to have the main story take up about 80% of the game. I don't know these open worlds where the story take up like 20% of the game.

Another thing I feel is missing in the FF games after 9 is the sense of an expansive open world to explore. This excludes 11 which I feel should have been a side game like Tactics and not part of the numerical series. Often times it felt more like exploring a large building instead of a whole new FF world. It seems to me that they did this to streamline the games to appeal to the larger audience of action gamers who might get frustrated in having to wander around. Again I havn't played much of 13, so this may not apply there.

They have changed too many things. I'm exactly the same as others you mentioned in your original post, loved FFX and couldn't stand FFXII and am really not interested in FFXIII at all. My issues with these games? The battle system for one. God forbid I make an actual choice. I know a lot of people really went off the whole turn based thing with a whole list of things to choose from, but that was my favourite part. I love turn based. The latest games have been more like action battles, but not even like Kingdom Hearts of Star Ocean. It's been somewhere inbetween that just didn't work for me. If you're going to make it real time action, just give me a sword and a button to assign a spell to it and leave it at that. Don't even get me started on the whole 'Auto battle' thing in FFXIII

They have also been making some really unlikeable characters, or characters that I just don't care about. I haven't really liked a single FF character since X. I just can't make myself care about anything of them.

Debus42

Auto battle is optional and you can select your own attacks. Making smart choices matters more in FFXIII than in previous games. Previous games also happened to have ATB, it just didn't get an upgrade since FFIV.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

I can't tell if they legitimately feel that they're telling good stories with FF or if they're just developing pretty nonsense because they think they have to pander to children. Square needs to work on their storytelling. It's what they've lost most of all.

xDarkHarlequinx

So what?

After playing through FF13, I've pretty much lost confidence in the series. I've already been disappointed with FF12, FFX-2, and Crisis Core before it, but FF13 was the last straw. I don't know why they give you such weak customization options in recent games. Look at FF13's weapon upgrade system...terrible. The characters are also unlikable in recent games, too. I think part of the problem is the writing. I didn't like most of the cast in FF13, except Sazh. Snow's annoying with his "I'm a hero!" speeches; Hope...you can forget about him. People who think these characters are memorable need to play more RPGs.

i probably enjoyed all ff games i played. thats including FF13. though i miss the old ff3

I'm just gonna come out and say it: Focusing too much on making pretty boys. Focusing too much on making it appeal only to Japanese who soak up melodrama worse than 40 year olds watching Days Of Our Lives Forgetting that enjoyable characters and good voice is what sucks in a player. We're not repressed pedophiles like the Japanese market in wanting to hear squeaky voices left and right. And finally, making it on the 360 as well. Shows that instead of ideas, they'll just dilute the product. Well they're not getting my money, ever. eccentric_view

I agree with this dude! :)

However, if it is just a matter of opinion, then 7 appealed to me much more than the others I've tried. character development, plot, the world, the lore, the combat system just felt right and amazingly employed by the developers. I gave up after 10, gave the franchise another chance with 12 and couldn't bear it any longer, just stopped caring and looked elsewhere!:(

Another reason why the series is in decline....other RPGs have gotten better and have surpassed the series storytelling wise and gameplaywise, from Black Isle to Bioware to Atlus. In 1994, FFVI was king of the hill in storytelling in a video game...the only games that even come close in that time were Ultima VII and The Gold Box D&D series, Same thing with Chrono Trigger in 1995. Then the highly inconsistant FFVII came out, with a badly flawed but memorable story, FF was still top at the time of its release, but not for long. But then the Fallouts, Baldur's Gates, and Planescape Torments came out, Might and Magic picked up its storytelling in both the main series and the Heroes series, and in for JRPGs, many rivaled and surpassed the PS era Final Fantasies in story and gameplay...for example, the excellent and moving Suikoden II, the ambitions though flawed Xenogears, the unique Valkyrie Profile, Vagrant Story, etc. With FFXIII, the story and gameplay are easily surpassed by other games. Mass Effect 2 takes a dump all over FFXIII in the story and writing department (as well as gameplay). Alan Wake, the overrated Heavy Rain, Metro 2033, Splinter Cell Conviction, and even other stories I have criticized like Alpha Protocol all feature better writing and story than FFXIII. Some JRPGs have better gameplay like DQIX, which encourages exploration. Qualitywise and critically, Final Fantasy has been surpassed, and thats one reason why the series is in decline.texasgoldrush

Why is FFVII's story memorable? Just because one of your main characters died or that the villain was often thinking about his mother? The story was good, but it just wasn't special enogh. Not like Final Fantasy VI or Chrono Trigger anyhow...

After playing through FF13, I've pretty much lost confidence in the series. I've already been disappointed with FF12, FFX-2, and Crisis Core before it, but FF13 was the last straw. I don't know why they give you such weak customization options in recent games. Look at FF13's weapon upgrade system...terrible. The characters are also unlikable in recent games, too. I think part of the problem is the writing. I didn't like most of the cast in FF13, except Sazh. Snow's annoying with his "I'm a hero!" speeches; Hope...you can forget about him. People who think these characters are memorable need to play more RPGs.

King9999

What other RPGs today exceed FF in your opinion? Personally, I found series like the Tales series to be more enthralling than FF is.

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"]Another reason why the series is in decline....other RPGs have gotten better and have surpassed the series storytelling wise and gameplaywise, from Black Isle to Bioware to Atlus. In 1994, FFVI was king of the hill in storytelling in a video game...the only games that even come close in that time were Ultima VII and The Gold Box D&D series, Same thing with Chrono Trigger in 1995. Then the highly inconsistant FFVII came out, with a badly flawed but memorable story, FF was still top at the time of its release, but not for long. But then the Fallouts, Baldur's Gates, and Planescape Torments came out, Might and Magic picked up its storytelling in both the main series and the Heroes series, and in for JRPGs, many rivaled and surpassed the PS era Final Fantasies in story and gameplay...for example, the excellent and moving Suikoden II, the ambitions though flawed Xenogears, the unique Valkyrie Profile, Vagrant Story, etc. With FFXIII, the story and gameplay are easily surpassed by other games. Mass Effect 2 takes a dump all over FFXIII in the story and writing department (as well as gameplay). Alan Wake, the overrated Heavy Rain, Metro 2033, Splinter Cell Conviction, and even other stories I have criticized like Alpha Protocol all feature better writing and story than FFXIII. Some JRPGs have better gameplay like DQIX, which encourages exploration. Qualitywise and critically, Final Fantasy has been surpassed, and thats one reason why the series is in decline.Metamania

Why is FFVII's story memorable? Just because one of your main characters died or that the villain was often thinking about his mother? The story was good, but it just wasn't special enogh. Not like Final Fantasy VI or Chrono Trigger anyhow...

I think part of it is that people judge Final Fantasy games with more with less forgiveness. They are not given FF13 any space with it beinf linear.

While they forgive Bioware's games fore being the same story set up and they character only really developed on the ship or at the camp.

I am glad that Final Fantasy still have a main character and not a hollow shell hero.

[QUOTE="King9999"]

After playing through FF13, I've pretty much lost confidence in the series. I've already been disappointed with FF12, FFX-2, and Crisis Core before it, but FF13 was the last straw. I don't know why they give you such weak customization options in recent games. Look at FF13's weapon upgrade system...terrible. The characters are also unlikable in recent games, too. I think part of the problem is the writing. I didn't like most of the cast in FF13, except Sazh. Snow's annoying with his "I'm a hero!" speeches; Hope...you can forget about him. People who think these characters are memorable need to play more RPGs.

Metamania

What other RPGs today exceed FF in your opinion? Personally, I found series like the Tales series to be more enthralling than FF is.

I think the Shin Megami Tensei games are a better alternative to FF. Tales is good too, though I wish we got the PS3 version of TOV.

[QUOTE="Metamania"]

[QUOTE="King9999"]

After playing through FF13, I've pretty much lost confidence in the series. I've already been disappointed with FF12, FFX-2, and Crisis Core before it, but FF13 was the last straw. I don't know why they give you such weak customization options in recent games. Look at FF13's weapon upgrade system...terrible. The characters are also unlikable in recent games, too. I think part of the problem is the writing. I didn't like most of the cast in FF13, except Sazh. Snow's annoying with his "I'm a hero!" speeches; Hope...you can forget about him. People who think these characters are memorable need to play more RPGs.

King9999

What other RPGs today exceed FF in your opinion? Personally, I found series like the Tales series to be more enthralling than FF is.

I think the Shin Megami Tensei games are a better alternative to FF. Tales is good too, though I wish we got the PS3 version of TOV.

I've been wishing for the TOV PS3 version to come out here since the day it was announced. So freaking sad that we got screwed over. I mean...Eternal Sonata came out for the PS3 with little to no exclusives, but we can't get TOV here? Unbelieveable...

I find the storylines of the later FF games are getting to be pretty weak/generic. It's the evolving gameplay that keeps things fresh enough to warrant me continuing with the series.

I thought 2,3 and 9 were the weakest of the series.

[spoiler] Let's see who is a real fan of the series by the previous statement [/spoiler]

I agree with the majority. It wasn't just the story though. The setting and characters this time felt borrowed and overused whereas previous Final Fantasy games have always surprised us with new and refreshing themes and ideas. I wouldn't count wandering in different locations as exploring. They were mere dungeons for me and crawling in dungeons isn't my idea of fun. The game felt like a portion of a game. It didn't feel complete. Putting aside the soundtrack which wasn't varied and memroable. I hate nitpicking but I can't bring myself to enjoy it at all. The only thing I liked was the small interactions between Lightning and Hope. I'm afraid I lost confidence in the series too.

That said, FFVIII is where it really started for me, in terms of my anger regarding the series. Drawing spells? No level-ups? No treasure chests? The JUNCTION system? All of these ideas made Final Fantasy VIII the black sheep of the family. It should have NOT existed. The only good thing that came out of Final Fantasy VIII was the soundtrack - surperb in many tracks. But the story was not only forgettable, but downright idiotic. That killed my faith in the series for a long time.

Metamania

Call me a fangirl but for me, FFVIII is the only Final Fantasy title that had you make use of every feature in the gameplay starting from magic to using summon and I thought this made it the smartest skill system in the entire series. Every single magic spell mattered. It was as if all this hassle to get a hundered of each didn't go to waste. Also, whether the plot is good or not depends on how you interprete it. My favorite interpretation was one that explained the possibility of a main character being the main villain. It made alot of sense and changed my whole view on the story.

I agree with the majority. It wasn't just the story though. The setting and characters this time felt borrowed and overused whereas previous Final Fantasy games have always surprised us with new and refreshing themes and ideas. I wouldn't count wandering in different locations as exploring. They were mere dungeons for me and crawling in dungeons isn't my idea of fun. The game felt like a portion of a game. It didn't feel complete. Putting aside the soundtrack which wasn't varied and memroable. I hate nitpicking but I can't bring myself to enjoy it at all. The only thing I liked was the small interactions between Lightning and Hope. I'm afraid I lost confidence in the series too.

[QUOTE="Metamania"]

That said, FFVIII is where it really started for me, in terms of my anger regarding the series. Drawing spells? No level-ups? No treasure chests? The JUNCTION system? All of these ideas made Final Fantasy VIII the black sheep of the family. It should have NOT existed. The only good thing that came out of Final Fantasy VIII was the soundtrack - surperb in many tracks. But the story was not only forgettable, but downright idiotic. That killed my faith in the series for a long time.

gamingqueen

Call me a fangirl but for me, FFVIII is the only Final Fantasy title that had you make use of every feature in the gameplay starting from magic to using summon and I thought this made it the smartest skill system in the entire series. Every single magic spell mattered. It was as if all this hassle to get a hundered of each didn't go to waste. Also, whether the plot is good or not depends on how you interprete it. My favorite interpretation was one that explained the possibility of a main character being the main villain. It made alot of sense and changed my whole view on the story.

For as long as i can remember, everyone has been berating square enix and most people consider the last REAL QUALITY Final Fantasy title to be FFX (though Crisis Core is an exception for me). The majority of FF fans i've spoken with couldn't stand XII and have also criticised XIII. I can't really put my finger on where they've gone wrong but i have noticed a lack of quality in recent years. I thought XII and XIII were okay...not great games but not dreadful.

Perhaps the fanbase aren't allowing new titles to be as good as past ones because of nostalgia? Or perhaps Square are lacking in creativity? I don't know...these are all just suggestions. Personally, i think the merging of Square into Square Enix was the turning point because the titles which i've enjoyed since they've been Squenix (X-2, Crisis Core, FFVII: DOC) are all spin-offs...and spin-offs are easier to make then brand new titles.

What does everyone else thing with regards to why XII and XIII aren't up to standard in comparison to past titles?

DarthJohnova

Final Fantasy XII= Beginning was great. But later in the game, you get these annoying pet things that do everything for you. Theres no challenge, and you might as well just stop the game right there.

Final Fantasy XIII= LONG BORING ONE-WAY HALLWAYS THAT ARE REPETITIVE AND UNCHALLENGING GAMEPLAY THAT ONLY REQUIRES HITTING THE X BUTTON FOR100 HOURS STRAIGHTAND SOMETIMES HEALING WITH NO DIFFICULTY AT ALL, WITH ASIDE OF BLAND, UNINTERESTING, CHARACTERS WITH ALMOST NO PERSONALLY ENDS UPBEING A GAMETHAT DOESN'T EVEN START TO GET GOOD UNTIL THE 25 HOUR MARK, WHICH BY THEN YOU'VE PROBABLY ALREADY TURNED THE GAME OFF.

Final Fantasy took a turn for the worse once it was introduced to Sony Fanboys.

There's no discernable drop in quality; in fact, I think you'd have trouble making a case for either game being poor beyond saying that you, personally, did not care for it. Final Fantasy XII is an excellent game; there's the usual Final Fantasy standard of polished graphics, a massive content, a gameplay system that offers a great deal of depth, a storyline with the strongest writing in the series to date and Shakespearian pacing. I think the problem that the game has is that it demands that you have a very broad set of tastes. It draws from Matsuno's past works, JRPGs, Final Fantasy conventions and MMORPGs. Essentially, if you have specialized tastes at all in role-playing games, SOMETHING in Final Fantasy XII is going to rub you the wrong way. It's such a strange hybrid of different conventions that it becomes difficult to get a feel for what tradition, exactly, Final Fantasy XII is following in. The answer is... all of them. None of them. You have to take it on its own terms, or the product as a whole makes little sense. Final Fantasy XIII might be a little too fast for its own good. The battles are set-up in such a way that if you're fighting for more than fifteen seconds at a time, you're playing too long. I think a lot of players don't have a sense of being in control with a battle system that rapid, and the pacing of the story is as quick as its gameplay. It violates all the good feelings you may have acquired from past Final Fantasy games about exploring every little niche, and it doesn't really give you a lot of time to engage in long-term planning (you basically just upgrade your characters as you go, whenever you can). It's not a drop in quality, it's a problem with not fulfilling the expectations that fans have come. You've essentially got a number of fans demanding the game be more like VI, or more like VII, or maybe X, and then smaller camps who prefer IV, or VIII, or V... At the same time, Square seems to be more interested in continuing to go in new directions with the series with each installment. I think it's just inevitable at this point that people are going to be disappointed if they expect ANYTHING from a Final Fantasy game beyond it being a role-playing game of some sort and being very pretty and polished. Which is probably why I like more Final Fantasy titles than your average Final Fantasy fan; I don't particularly care what sort of game the next Final Fantasy game is except that it is excellent. And I haven't been disappointed since Final Fantasy VII.Oilers99

I really have to agree with you here, and I think you make a lot of good points. I haven't played XIII, IX, or XII, but I have played a lot of the others and I notice that Square Enix does indeed try to keep some variety in their games. I thought XIII was nothing short of incredible and I feel like a lot of people hated on the game for what it wasn't. Yes, they got rid of towns, but is that really what makes the series great? I'm happy they keep trying new ideas, it keeps the series from getting stale. I thought the new battle system was a lot of fun, and I don't think the linearity hurt the game all that much. Besides, by adding fresh new ideas to the games, each one becomes its own unique masterpiece. The main formula is kept from game to game, but some of the fringe details are changed in order to keep things unique. This has to be done in order to prevent boring repetition, and I think Square Enix has done a very good job keeping the right balance as they create new games.

I play Final Fantasy for the rich enemies as much as anything else and they are able to keep them very rich.

[QUOTE="DarthJohnova"]

For as long as i can remember, everyone has been berating square enix and most people consider the last REAL QUALITY Final Fantasy title to be FFX (though Crisis Core is an exception for me). The majority of FF fans i've spoken with couldn't stand XII and have also criticised XIII. I can't really put my finger on where they've gone wrong but i have noticed a lack of quality in recent years. I thought XII and XIII were okay...not great games but not dreadful.

Perhaps the fanbase aren't allowing new titles to be as good as past ones because of nostalgia? Or perhaps Square are lacking in creativity? I don't know...these are all just suggestions. Personally, i think the merging of Square into Square Enix was the turning point because the titles which i've enjoyed since they've been Squenix (X-2, Crisis Core, FFVII: DOC) are all spin-offs...and spin-offs are easier to make then brand new titles.

What does everyone else thing with regards to why XII and XIII aren't up to standard in comparison to past titles?

Mahrio

Final Fantasy XII= Beginning was great. But later in the game, you get these annoying pet things that do everything for you. Theres no challenge, and you might as well just stop the game right there.

Final Fantasy XIII= LONG BORING ONE-WAY HALLWAYS THAT ARE REPETITIVE AND UNCHALLENGING GAMEPLAY THAT ONLY REQUIRES HITTING THE X BUTTON FOR100 HOURS STRAIGHTAND SOMETIMES HEALING WITH NO DIFFICULTY AT ALL, WITH ASIDE OF BLAND, UNINTERESTING, CHARACTERS WITH ALMOST NO PERSONALLY ENDS UPBEING A GAMETHAT DOESN'T EVEN START TO GET GOOD UNTIL THE 25 HOUR MARK, WHICH BY THEN YOU'VE PROBABLY ALREADY TURNED THE GAME OFF.

Final Fantasy took a turn for the worse once it was introduced to Sony Fanboys.

First off, caps off please...

Second, it's only in the beginning for a short while that you keep on pressing the button for awhile. But after that, things do change. You can't do that to a few bosses or even the most simplest enemies. That's one positive thing about FFXIII at least - you have to be strategic and try out different characters and styles. The summons (or eidolons) also require you to fight differently.

I'd say their main issue in terms of gameplay is the old problem of trying to reinvent the wheel. Their battle system worked, and people liked it. For whatever reason they thought that whenever they made FF XI that the new battle style for their MMO would be awesome if translated into a single player game. Not so. Also, the stories. They've always had a thing for being overly dramatic, it's just at some point they forgot to make us care about the characters first.