Why LittleBigPlanet is a failure.

Please note this is not some fanboyish post intended to stir some **** amongst PS3 fans or LBPfans but a look at how Sony have managed to screw one of the most important game releases so far for this generation.

Over the past few weeks since the release of LBP Sony have been moderating user-created levels without giving prior notice or reason as to why they chose to do so. The minisicule reasons apparently being patches of blood  being represented in these levels. Examples of this are the highly acclaimed "Azure Palace" and "World of Color". Not only this but Sony are deleting all levels which they feel infringe copyright. Including levels which pay homage to games like God of war and Tetris to name a few. 

Now the reason this is happening is due to the Quraanic verses controversy. Sony is not taking any chances with the game and are too afraid that the game will be offensive to anyone. Part of the blame i feel, lies with Media Molecule who failed to come up with a proper ratings system for the user-created levels.

Also one more point to note is that before the game was recalled the it carried a note above the ESRB rating stating that online levels were not rated by them, But afterwards it was removed. What this means quite obviously is that all user generated content online must be within the prescribed E-rating for it to be not moderated. Though Sony will not confirm or deny it their actions obviously speak for themselves. 

Sony's actions will greatly hamper the game and Phil Harrisons inital proclomations on game 3.0 and journalists heralding the game as the youtube of video games. Youtube does not, as far as my knowledge delete videos without the copyright holders consent. 

Really, these are the sort of issues that should have been taken into account during development. Already people who spent hours making their levels only to have them modded without any prior notice are understandedly angry and upset at Sony and Media Molecule for their handling of the situation. 

In conclusion i'll say that the game failed to achieve what it set out to do, Its motto play,create,share has become meaningless in the face of Sony's intervention in how user-generated content should be handled.

I recently got LBP and I agree with you to an extent. I do agree that the moderation policies currently executed by Mm and Sony are less than amazing, a lot less. I do enjoy the game a lot though, it is a fantastic game but I am afraid to make a level that 'may' be moderated due to both blood and copyright infringment.

I am a big fan of Dead Space so I wanted to recreate some dismemberment, I might make it just for fun for myself and not publish it. But that is sad. Mm should have integrated a rating system when you publish a level, and if an inappropriate rating is put by the creater, anyone can report it and the rating will be readjusted to the appropriate level. 

Mm and Sony (if this is really their responsobility) should also ensure that people ARE warned before their creations are destroyed. The level should be taken off the internet, but remain on the creators Moon with a tag on it that prevents it from being published until it has been changed, and when it does get sent for publishing, it will have to go through another moderation. I know this is still not perfect, but it is the best that could happen in my opinion.

The problem is that people are not really coming up with unique ideas. People are taken existing properties that do not belong to them. That is a legal no-no.

As far as the ratings, I agree. Although I thought you could create as nasty a level as you want and share it with your friends, but not post it online. I haven't tried that yet, so I don't know if its true. 

In conclusion i'll say that the game failed to achieve what it set out to do, Its motto play,create,share has become meaningless in the face of Sony's intervention in how user-generated content should be handled.

byge

While I agree that the situation with the user-generated content is anything but ideal, the fact remains that there are literally thousands of user created levels currently available, which frankly negates the assertion that LBP is a failure.

What you've done is taken one negative aspect of an otherwise brilliant endeavor and essentially dismissed everything else that LBP has gotten right, which is frankly an infantile and hyperbolic approach that immediately places your own credibility into question.

Copyright is a sticky legal area and while I agree that MM and Sony seem to be overreacting a tad, the truth is that this entire situation is very much new ground for everybody and I think it could take some time for all the issues to be fully ironed out. Was this situation causing a true dearth in user generated content, perhaps you'd have a more viable point, but considering that there are still plenty of excellent levels available makes your argument seem pretty flimsy.

I guess the bottom line is that employing the word "failure" to describe LBP is, at least to me, an offensive tactic and it really comes off as a pedantic, knee-jerk criticism. If that one unfortunate aspect of the game truly marginalizes everything else LBP does well, you seriously ought to get rid of the game and move onto something else.

[QUOTE="byge"]

In conclusion i'll say that the game failed to achieve what it set out to do, Its motto play,create,share has become meaningless in the face of Sony's intervention in how user-generated content should be handled.

Grammaton-Cleric

While I agree that the situation with the user-generated content is anything but ideal, the fact remains that there are literally thousands of user created levels currently available, which frankly negates the assertion that LBP is a failure.

What you've done is taken one negative aspect of an otherwise brilliant endeavor and essentially dismissed everything else that LBP has gotten right, which is frankly an infantile and hyperbolic approach that immediately places your own credibility into question.

Copyright is a sticky legal area and while I agree that MM and Sony seem to be overreacting a tad, the truth is that this entire situation is very much new ground for everybody and I think it could take some time for all the issues to be fully ironed out. Was this situation causing a true dearth in user generated content, perhaps you'd have a more viable point, but considering that there are still plenty of excellent levels available makes your argument seem pretty flimsy.

I guess the bottom line is that employing the word "failure" to describe LBP is, at least to me, an offensive tactic and it really comes off as a pedantic, knee-jerk criticism. If that one unfortunate aspect of the game truly marginalizes everything else LBP does well, you seriously ought to get rid of the game and move onto something else.

What you seem to be ignoring is that the most major aspect of the game which is the creating and sharing levels aspect has been compromised due to Sony's actions. You claim that i took one negative aspect of the game but i took the most important one and which undoubtedly is the most used feature of the game by most gamers.

The Azure palace wasnt just a minor level, It was number 5 on 1ups top ten level list and the one at number 1 is the gradius level which will probably be deleted sooner or later due to copyright infringment.

Really you cant excuse Sony and Media Molecule for not proplery handling the copyright situation. They could have looked at how youtube deals with it and how mods have been doing it on the pc for years. To say that the situation doesnt have precedence is folly and uninformed. Was it that hard to implement a ratings system in the levels as one user above me stated?

Sony have obviously taken their stance on the issue and i dont see anything changing much besides moderators contacting level creators to remove blood, gore and copyrighted materials from their levels

People are taken existing properties that do not belong to them. That is a legal no-no.Grieverr

Actually, user-created content is ok as long as it's not used for profit and doesn't use the property's name. There are countless Star Wars etc. mods for various PC games out there and they're all perfectly legal. Hell, Star Wars Battlefront is basically a rip-off of a Battlefield Star Wars mod. There are also total conversion mods that basically replicate entire games such as Half-Life and Perfect Dark.

Honestly, this is totally dampening my interest in LittleBigPlanet. Obviously Sony has no understanding of how user-created content works.

User-created videos on YouTube and right here on GameSpot is a good example of how to explain this. Music videos, trailers and music itself are all subject to copyright infrigement on their own. However, when someone uses all three to create their own video (a Team Fortress 2 music video, for example), there is no case for copyright infrigement as it was user-created and distributed for free.

[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"][QUOTE="byge"]

In conclusion i'll say that the game failed to achieve what it set out to do, Its motto play,create,share has become meaningless in the face of Sony's intervention in how user-generated content should be handled.

byge

While I agree that the situation with the user-generated content is anything but ideal, the fact remains that there are literally thousands of user created levels currently available, which frankly negates the assertion that LBP is a failure.

What you've done is taken one negative aspect of an otherwise brilliant endeavor and essentially dismissed everything else that LBP has gotten right, which is frankly an infantile and hyperbolic approach that immediately places your own credibility into question.

Copyright is a sticky legal area and while I agree that MM and Sony seem to be overreacting a tad, the truth is that this entire situation is very much new ground for everybody and I think it could take some time for all the issues to be fully ironed out. Was this situation causing a true dearth in user generated content, perhaps you'd have a more viable point, but considering that there are still plenty of excellent levels available makes your argument seem pretty flimsy.

I guess the bottom line is that employing the word "failure" to describe LBP is, at least to me, an offensive tactic and it really comes off as a pedantic, knee-jerk criticism. If that one unfortunate aspect of the game truly marginalizes everything else LBP does well, you seriously ought to get rid of the game and move onto something else.

What you seem to be ignoring is that the most major aspect of the game which is the creating and sharing levels aspect has been compromised due to Sony's actions. You claim that i took one negative aspect of the game but i took the most important one and which undoubtedly is the most used feature of the game by most gamers.

The Azure palace wasnt just a minor level, It was number 5 on 1ups top ten level list and the one at number 1 is the gradius level which will probably be deleted sooner or later due to copyright infringment.

Really you cant excuse Sony and Media Molecule for not proplery handling the copyright situation. They could have looked at how youtube deals with it and how mods have been doing it on the pc for years. To say that the situation doesnt have precedence is folly and uninformed. Was it that hard to implement a ratings system in the levels as one user above me stated?

Sony have obviously taken their stance on the issue and i dont see anything changing much besides moderators contacting level creators to remove blood, gore and copyrighted materials from their levels

I agree. The game was promoted as a videogame that allows users to create and share levels and not for its six hours single-player mode. Many people bought the game specifically for that feature.

[QUOTE="Grieverr"]People are taken existing properties that do not belong to them. That is a legal no-no.UpInFlames

Actually, user-created content is ok as long as it's not used for profit and doesn't use the property's name. There are countless Star Wars etc. mods for various PC games out there and they're all perfectly legal. Hell, Star Wars Battlefront is basically a rip-off of a Battlefield Star Wars mod. There are also total conversion mods that basically replicate entire games such as Half-Life and Perfect Dark.

Honestly, this is totally dampening my interest in LittleBigPlanet. Obviously Sony has no understanding of how user-created content works.

User-created videos on YouTube and right here on GameSpot is a good example of how to explain this. Music videos, trailers and music itself are all subject to copyright infrigement on their own. However, when someone uses all three to create their own video (a Team Fortress 2 music video, for example), there is no case for copyright infrigement as it was user-created and distributed for free.

That depends on the company's policy actually. My friend made a flash game with characters from capcom. He didn't even activate it, by the time capcom knew, they asked the website to take down the flash game and he wasn't gaining a cent from it. It was on newgrounds.

MSNBC explained the copyright problem.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27707170/

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The one, big, legal technical difference, says media scholar Siva Vaidhyanathan, is that to cover a song live, you are taking advantage of a compulsory licensing system that Congress set up to encourage people to play covers in bars and wedding halls.

But if you create a song or a level based on another game and publish it on an online service? Well, you're running smack up against the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, passed by Congress in 1998. Back then, Internet service providers were more worried about digital piracy of movies and music than user-generated content based on an old Nintendo game.

"Congress never thought that this phenomenon would happen. In 1998, no one ever predicted 'Guitar Hero,'" says Vaidhyanathan.

And the law contains, he says, very little complexity or nuance. Copyright owners need only send an official letter to the service provider to say their rights are being infringed, and the service provider has to remove it, no questions asked.

Activision Blizzard's statement seems to indicate that they may have received some sort of complaint, but Sony would not confirm if they had or hadn't. Perhaps the company was acting preemptively, to fend off even the specter of legal action.

And right now, the law is stacked against players. Both Sony and Activision state in their terms of use that they own the content players create once it's posted to their service. Players can appeal the removal of their creations - the law affords that process - but the hosting services (Sony and Activision) would have to entertain the appeal.

Until the law is rewritten to include user-generated content, the companies are not to blame, says Vaidhyanathan. It's a drag for players, certainly, to put time and energy into making something for the community - only to see it yanked. It's also a drag for those of us who loved playing the "Sonic the Hedgehog" level in "LittleBigPlanet."

"This is the sort of practice that the law affords no space for," says Vaidhyanathan. "That doesn't mean there's not a solution, it's just going to take a bunch of lawyers a bunch of years to actually figure out whether this is worth pursuing."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So writing to one's Congressman seems a smarter route than writing to Sony, since its the law that's the problem.

I do agree that what's appropriate content wise needs to be made clearer and probably less strict (I don't think Sony has ever said why the Azure Palace was moderated, but it didn't contain anything one couldn't find in the LBP levels that shipped on disk).

Also, one should keep in mind that Media Molecule pulls a level the second a complaint is made, and it is only reposted after the complaint has been investigated and disproven (before someone asks, no, I don't know how long the process takes).

MSNBC explained the copyright problem.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27707170/

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The one, big, legal technical difference, says media scholar Siva Vaidhyanathan, is that to cover a song live, you are taking advantage of a compulsory licensing system that Congress set up to encourage people to play covers in bars and wedding halls.

But if you create a song or a level based on another game and publish it on an online service? Well, you're running smack up against the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, passed by Congress in 1998. Back then, Internet service providers were more worried about digital piracy of movies and music than user-generated content based on an old Nintendo game.

"Congress never thought that this phenomenon would happen. In 1998, no one ever predicted 'Guitar Hero,'" says Vaidhyanathan.

And the law contains, he says, very little complexity or nuance. Copyright owners need only send an official letter to the service provider to say their rights are being infringed, and the service provider has to remove it, no questions asked.

Activision Blizzard's statement seems to indicate that they may have received some sort of complaint, but Sony would not confirm if they had or hadn't. Perhaps the company was acting preemptively, to fend off even the specter of legal action.

And right now, the law is stacked against players. Both Sony and Activision state in their terms of use that they own the content players create once it's posted to their service. Players can appeal the removal of their creations - the law affords that process - but the hosting services (Sony and Activision) would have to entertain the appeal.

Until the law is rewritten to include user-generated content, the companies are not to blame, says Vaidhyanathan. It's a drag for players, certainly, to put time and energy into making something for the community - only to see it yanked. It's also a drag for those of us who loved playing the "Sonic the Hedgehog" level in "LittleBigPlanet."

"This is the sort of practice that the law affords no space for," says Vaidhyanathan. "That doesn't mean there's not a solution, it's just going to take a bunch of lawyers a bunch of years to actually figure out whether this is worth pursuing."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So writing to one's Congressman seems a smarter route than writing to Sony, since its the law that's the problem.

I do agree that what's appropriate content wise needs to be made clearer and probably less strict (I don't think Sony has ever said why the Azure Palace was moderated, but it didn't contain anything one couldn't find in the LBP levels that shipped on disk).

Also, one should keep in mind that Media Molecule pulls a level the second a complaint is made, and it is only reposted after the complaint has been investigated and disproven (before someone asks, no, I don't know how long the process takes).

CarnageHeart

Really, there was no need to pre-emptively start deleting levels due to fears of legal action. Most game companies have been openly supporting mods on pc for years, I dont see a lot of developers upset with users paying homage to their creations. Hell Resident Evil 4 on pc had a mod where leone was converted into link.

What you seem to be ignoring is that the most major aspect of the game which is the creating and sharing levels aspect has been compromised due to Sony's actions. You claim that i took one negative aspect of the game but i took the most important one and which undoubtedly is the most used feature of the game by most gamers.

The Azure palace wasnt just a minor level, It was number 5 on 1ups top ten level list and the one at number 1 is the gradius level which will probably be deleted sooner or later due to copyright infringment.

Really you cant excuse Sony and Media Molecule for not proplery handling the copyright situation. They could have looked at how youtube deals with it and how mods have been doing it on the pc for years. To say that the situation doesnt have precedence is folly and uninformed. Was it that hard to implement a ratings system in the levels as one user above me stated?

Sony have obviously taken their stance on the issue and i dont see anything changing much besides moderators contacting level creators to remove blood, gore and copyrighted materials from their levels

byge

I ignored the issue of creative levels being the specific draw of LBP?

Actually, I specifically addressed the issue and the fact remains that there are literally thousands of such levels. Just because a fraction of user levels were removed, regardless of their popularity, doesn't suddenly make the entire game useless. You can still make, share and download levels; you just can't do it using copyrighted themes and ideas. So again, calling LBP a "failure" is juvenile hyperbole.

Also sport, before you start using adjectives like "uninformed" to describe other people, you might want to actually take a serious look at the precedents you are citing.

Youtube takes tons of content down and will generally do so even at the slightest hint of legal trouble. The only reason so many fan films and parodies of existing IP's are readily available on Youtube is because the companies who own those IP's don't consider such things to be a viable threat to their own revenue source, though at any time they could demand those films be removed and Youtube would more than likely oblige without hesitation.

As to PC mods, those are created and distributed by private citizens. The PC game publisher has no official ties to those mods; they don't host them or distribute them; they merely allow their game engine to be open and malleable. If a game developer officially endorsed or hosted a mod that utilized an existing IP, they could be liable for copyright infringement.

MM and Sony host and provide access to all LBP user content, which means they have opened themselves up to a greater responsibility. Your allusion to PC mods and Youtube, as stated above, is flatly inappropriate. Copyright is not a joke and even a single case of copyright infringement can cost a company millions of dollars so while it's easy for a person on an Internet message board to flap their gums about Sony's "failure", the truth is that this response is probably the most reasonable course of action.

Wow I had little interest in LBP before. I wondered why in the hell people would find this game so fun? But after what you said I'm glad I never got this game. This would extremely piss me off.

Sony, Nintendo, and Xbox are THE reason why AO games are not allowed. They take it upon themselves to decide what we are allowed to experience when we play a video game on their consoles. Which is freaking pathetic since every other form of media allows adult content and has ways to distribute it.

Now your saying that they make a game where its all about USER CREATED CONTENT and they have decided to censor that also??? Wow. Thats just insane and unforgivable.

The only thing that would make them think twice about it is if everyone who disagrees with this kind of censorship to take their game back to the store they baught it from but we all know thats not allowed. At best your only looking at a trade in value. And fat ------- chance of getting the publisher to take the game back. Thats another issue gamers are going to have to address and fight for one day. Theres no reason why gamers should get stuck holding the bag when they buy a craphole game that isnt worth the dvd it was imprinted on.

Wow I had little interest in LBP before. I wondered why in the hell people would find this game so fun? But after what you said I'm glad I never got this game. This would extremely piss me off.

Sony, Nintendo, and Xbox are THE reason why AO games are not allowed. They take it upon themselves to decide what we are allowed to experience when we play a video game on their consoles. Which is freaking pathetic since every other form of media allows adult content and has ways to distribute it.

Now your saying that they make a game where its all about USER CREATED CONTENT and they have decided to censor that also??? Wow. Thats just insane and unforgivable.

The only thing that would make them think twice about it is if everyone who disagrees with this kind of censorship to take their game back to the store they baught it from but we all know thats not allowed. At best your only looking at a trade in value. And fat ------- chance of getting the publisher to take the game back. Thats another issue gamers are going to have to address and fight for one day. Theres no reason why gamers should get stuck holding the bag when they buy a craphole game that isnt worth the dvd it was imprinted on.

_AbBaNdOn

You do realize that literally no major retail outlets will sell an AO game, right? That means even if Sony, Nintendo and MS endorsed such software, there would be practically next to nowhere to actually sell it.

And incidentally, is there an abundance of AO software on the PC? Because last time I checked, PC developers weren't really making AO games on the PC either.

[QUOTE="CarnageHeart"]

MSNBC explained the copyright problem.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27707170/

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The one, big, legal technical difference, says media scholar Siva Vaidhyanathan, is that to cover a song live, you are taking advantage of a compulsory licensing system that Congress set up to encourage people to play covers in bars and wedding halls.

But if you create a song or a level based on another game and publish it on an online service? Well, you're running smack up against the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, passed by Congress in 1998. Back then, Internet service providers were more worried about digital piracy of movies and music than user-generated content based on an old Nintendo game.

"Congress never thought that this phenomenon would happen. In 1998, no one ever predicted 'Guitar Hero,'" says Vaidhyanathan.

And the law contains, he says, very little complexity or nuance. Copyright owners need only send an official letter to the service provider to say their rights are being infringed, and the service provider has to remove it, no questions asked.

Activision Blizzard's statement seems to indicate that they may have received some sort of complaint, but Sony would not confirm if they had or hadn't. Perhaps the company was acting preemptively, to fend off even the specter of legal action.

And right now, the law is stacked against players. Both Sony and Activision state in their terms of use that they own the content players create once it's posted to their service. Players can appeal the removal of their creations - the law affords that process - but the hosting services (Sony and Activision) would have to entertain the appeal.

Until the law is rewritten to include user-generated content, the companies are not to blame, says Vaidhyanathan. It's a drag for players, certainly, to put time and energy into making something for the community - only to see it yanked. It's also a drag for those of us who loved playing the "Sonic the Hedgehog" level in "LittleBigPlanet."

"This is the sort of practice that the law affords no space for," says Vaidhyanathan. "That doesn't mean there's not a solution, it's just going to take a bunch of lawyers a bunch of years to actually figure out whether this is worth pursuing."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So writing to one's Congressman seems a smarter route than writing to Sony, since its the law that's the problem.

I do agree that what's appropriate content wise needs to be made clearer and probably less strict (I don't think Sony has ever said why the Azure Palace was moderated, but it didn't contain anything one couldn't find in the LBP levels that shipped on disk).

Also, one should keep in mind that Media Molecule pulls a level the second a complaint is made, and it is only reposted after the complaint has been investigated and disproven (before someone asks, no, I don't know how long the process takes).

byge

Really, there was no need to pre-emptively start deleting levels due to fears of legal action. Most game companies have been openly supporting mods on pc for years, I dont see a lot of developers upset with users paying homage to their creations. Hell Resident Evil 4 on pc had a mod where leone was converted into link.

Sony told MSNBC they are looking for a solution (perhaps they are going around getting blanket permission from publishers?).  I think its perfectly reasonable for a firm on uncertain legal ground to err on the side of caution.  Would I like them to be more liberal?  Yes, but it isn't me that would be paying the legal cost of a misstep.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sony seems concerned about the potential chilling effect their policies might have on user creativity. In an e-mailed statement, they told me that they knew there was a problem with levels being yanked from "LittleBigPlanet" - a game I reviewed and loved, incidentally -  and that they were working to "resolve this issue." In the meantime, they hope players will keep making cool levels and sharing them with the community.

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Also, its probably the publishers, not the developers, that Sony is worried about.

Couldn't this whole thing be protected by the same reason South Park, or going back even further Mad Magazine, are protected and that is its everybody's right to spoof something? It's not like most people in LBP are using actual elements from these games or movies they are imitating. They just use ingame things and mock up the game.

I don't know. It's such a fuzzy territory. I brought this situation up before saying that some companies have been know to launch lawsuits because of mods using their properties' likenesses (Marvel) and it seems like Sony is doing everything they can to prevent that kind of long, drawn out legal battle.

This just proves that PC is the home of modding :P

"Congress never thought that this phenomenon would happen. In 1998, no one ever predicted 'Guitar Hero,'" says Vaidhyanathan.CarnageHeart

Guitar Hero? Were these people born yesterday? There were mods in 1998 so I don't know what they're talking about. Also, if the law is so strict and not open to interpretation, how is a Master Chief mod in the PS3 version of Unreal Tournament III ok and the user-created content in LittleBigPlanet getting axed pre-emptively? I really don't understand what's going on here.

Really, the only difference I see here is that one game is by a developer with loads of experience with user-created content and the other...isn't.

This just proves that PC is the home of modding :Psmerlus

Seriously, this user-created content on consoles thing isn't working all that well - too many big corporations, legal teams and crap getting in the way. Nintendo and Microsoft are flat-out against it and it seems Sony doesn't know what the hell they're doing.

Youtube takes tons of content down and will generally do so even at the slightest hint of legal trouble. The only reason so many fan films and parodies of existing IP's are readily available on Youtube is because the companies who own those IP's don't consider such things to be a viable threat to their own revenue source, though at any time they could demand those films be removed and Youtube would more than likely oblige without hesitation.

As to PC mods, those are created and distributed by private citizens. The PC game publisher has no official ties to those mods; they don't host them or distribute them; they merely allow their game engine to be open and malleable. If a game developer officially endorsed or hosted a mod that utilized an existing IP, they could be liable for copyright infringement.

MM and Sony host and provide access to all LBP user content, which means they have opened themselves up to a greater responsibility. Your allusion to PC mods and Youtube, as stated above, is flatly inappropriate. Copyright is not a joke and even a single case of copyright infringement can cost a company millions of dollars so while it's easy for a person on an Internet message board to flap their gums about Sony's "failure", the truth is that this response is probably the most reasonable course of action.

 

 

Grammaton-Cleric

See the thing is you've just proved my point. Youtube hosts and provides access to the content. They take down videos as soon as they're sent a cease and desist order. 

Why couldnt the same have been done with LBP. What was so wrong with allowing people to make levels and take down a level when a copyright holder complained? Then Sony would more than likely oblige without hesitation.

All they need is ask for their permission if they were going to use copyrighted material in their games. Not asking for permission is violating intellectual property laws.

Another thing to note is Sony is also removing God of War levels even though sony itself holds the copyrights to the franchise.byge

Which would make their statement of only removing content after a complaint was made a total lie. Unless Sony Santa Monica made a complaint which would be absurd, but then again, not unprecedented in camp Sony.

Really, it seems that the only thing that is clear is that nothing about this situation is anywhere near being clear-cut from either viewpoint.

Another thing to note is Sony is also removing God of War levels even though sony itself holds the copyrights to the franchise.byge

Sony hasn't explained their reasoning, but the common belief in the loooong thread about the subject on the LBP website is the level was modded for objectionable content, not copyright infringement.

Sony hasn't explained their reasoning, but the common belief in the loooong thread about the subject on the LBP website is the level was modded for objectionable content, not copyright infringement.CarnageHeart

Does the user-created content need to be in the limits of ESRB's E-rating?

[QUOTE="CarnageHeart"]Sony hasn't explained their reasoning, but the common belief in the loooong thread about the subject on the LBP website is the level was modded for objectionable content, not copyright infringement.UpInFlames

Does the user-created content need to be in the limits of ESRB's E-rating?

I don't know, but Media Molecule announced on day 1 (and has stated repeatedly since then) that they wanted to keep it family friendly.  Of course, there are bloodstains and bones in some of Media Molecule's levels.  Like I said in my first post, Media Molecule needs to be more explicit about what is and isn't permissible.

Does the person that posted questionable content get in trouble at all? I mean if someone keeps getting things deleted could they be banned from the online portion?

Does the person that posted questionable content get in trouble at all? I mean if someone keeps getting things deleted could they be banned from the online portion?

smerlus

I remember MM warning that people would be banned for abuse of the griefing system (i.e. posting baseless, malicious complaints) and I imagine that the same would true of the level creation system (i.e. a guy who insisted on post neo-Nazi proganda) but I can't recall MM speaking specifically on the subject.

As to PC mods, those are created and distributed by private citizens. The PC game publisher has no official ties to those mods; they don't host them or distribute them; they merely allow their game engine to be open and malleable. If a game developer officially endorsed or hosted a mod that utilized an existing IP, they could be liable for copyright infringement.Grammaton-Cleric

I suppose that mods are a bit different since the developer has no real ties to the content created, but here's an example which can be directly compared to LittleBigPlanet - Spore. It's a game where players also create basically everything in the game including creatures, buildings, etc. As far as I know, the only content EA has removed was porn (if someone has any info to the contrary, please correct me). There was a Spore contest right here on GameSpot and one of the objectives was to create a creature based on your favorite game character. I never heard of any objections from anyone.

[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]As to PC mods, those are created and distributed by private citizens. The PC game publisher has no official ties to those mods; they don't host them or distribute them; they merely allow their game engine to be open and malleable. If a game developer officially endorsed or hosted a mod that utilized an existing IP, they could be liable for copyright infringement.UpInFlames

I suppose that mods are a bit different since the developer has no real ties to the content created, but here's an example which can be directly compared to LittleBigPlanet - Spore. It's a game where players also create basically everything in the game including creatures, buildings, etc. As far as I know, the only content EA has removed was porn (if someone has any info to the contrary, please correct me). There was a Spore contest right here on GameSpot and one of the objectives was to create a creature based on your favorite game character. I never heard of any objections from anyone.

You could also mention The Sims 1 & 2. They might not keep character skins on their servers per se but I remember downloading houses off of the sims website and being met with anything from Cenobite skins that come with the house to movie posters to actual gif's of movies that played on the TV screen.

Also, if the law is so strict and not open to interpretation, how is a Master Chief mod in the PS3 version of Unreal Tournament III ok and the user-created content in LittleBigPlanet getting axed pre-emptively?UpInFlames

Probably because Epic isn't hosting the files themselves - people are making the files and distributing it themselves.  As far as I understand it, UTIII mods on the PS3 are no different from the PC - download it from your normal fan site, put it on a flash drive, plug it into the game.  LBP is hosting all the content so Sony takes on a hell of a lot more legal responsibility.

And before everyone goes off about it not being like YouTube because they're pulling the content before being asked to... how the hell do you know that?  Seriously, some of you know exactly what legal notices the Sony lawyers are receiving in their mail?  Some people in this thread are just making up "facts" that they have absolutely no way of proving one way or another just to drive home a rant.

The God of War letter was probably modified not because Sony doesn't want their games to be used, but probably because there's this little issue of having the player perform a human sacrifice in an E-rated game.  I've seen Buzz games being used, I think it was even made by a MM guy.

They do need to clarify what is and isn't allowed.  But as the law exists (largely thanks to the RIAA and the movie industry a decade ago), if a rights holder says they don't want their rights to be used now or in the future, then Sony HAS to delete any published level the moment it comes to their attention.  It sucks, but that's the law.  Sony's hands are pretty much tied until Congress changes it (seems unlikely), or some rights holders stop objecting to their rights being used ever in any way.

[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]As to PC mods, those are created and distributed by private citizens. The PC game publisher has no official ties to those mods; they don't host them or distribute them; they merely allow their game engine to be open and malleable. If a game developer officially endorsed or hosted a mod that utilized an existing IP, they could be liable for copyright infringement.UpInFlames

I suppose that mods are a bit different since the developer has no real ties to the content created, but here's an example which can be directly compared to LittleBigPlanet - Spore. It's a game where players also create basically everything in the game including creatures, buildings, etc. As far as I know, the only content EA has removed was porn (if someone has any info to the contrary, please correct me). There was a Spore contest right here on GameSpot and one of the objectives was to create a creature based on your favorite game character. I never heard of any objections from anyone.

Was that a GS contest, or an EA contest?  GS can ask such things, I think, because they don't host the content themselves.  It's very possible that someone made a blue hedgehog in Spore for the contest, won it, then two days later it was deleted when Sega sent EA a cease and desist.

...Now the reason this is happening is due to the Quraanic verses controversy...

byge

That's a bit of a leap.  Sony probably is so deep in moderating LBP that if something gets reported it gets removed. Also, being a large media company themsleves I am sure they are appropriately concerned with the intellectual property rights of others (so if a level hints at SMB or Tetris, it's outta there). 

look, these levels are not being modded due to legality for the most part, although some of them are. taking a picture of the batman logo and slapping it in the game will and should get your game removed, because it is a 100% copy of the logo. however, user levels BASED on other properties are considered homages and are protected under parody rights. sony and/or media molecule is just taking the ultra safe route.

the bottom line is that it has killed this game for me. what was once a must buy is now something only worth a rental at best. the game has lost a ton of its value and turned off a large part of the community. for a game that lives or dies by its community, this is a fatal error. RIP LBP.

The title should be changed to disaster because that's what it seems like. From the fumbling launch to the hazey ToS that no one is sure why levels are getting removed. It just seems like Sony and MM didn't do their homework and weren't prepared for a modding community and the freedom their toolset instills to its users.

Was that a GS contest, or an EA contest? GS can ask such things, I think, because they don't host the content themselves. It's very possible that someone made a blue hedgehog in Spore for the contest, won it, then two days later it was deleted when Sega sent EA a cease and desist.argianas

Like I said, I haven't heard about EA removing anything but porn - in which case Will Wright himself condoned it as player creativity, but said they still needed to remove it for other people's sake. Anything is possible, but most likely, it's all still up there because no one but Marvel gives a crap.

Speaking of which, the Marvel suit was the first--and only--of its kind going after user-created content and Marvel lost. NCsoft didn't need to change anything and all the content remained intact. Link

This would be basically the same thing if say Battlenet took all of the Warcraft and Starcraft custom maps and deleted them because they make references to the numerous Dragon Ball Z or Final Fantasy franchises.

Sony is being a little overzealous here.

And sadly, most of the GOOD maps are the ones being removed from this oversensitive policy, because face it, this game is another Heavenly Sword otherwise. 

[QUOTE="argianas"]Was that a GS contest, or an EA contest? GS can ask such things, I think, because they don't host the content themselves. It's very possible that someone made a blue hedgehog in Spore for the contest, won it, then two days later it was deleted when Sega sent EA a cease and desist.UpInFlames

Like I said, I haven't heard about EA removing anything but porn - in which case Will Wright himself condoned it as player creativity, but said they still needed to remove it for other people's sake. Anything is possible, but most likely, it's all still up there because no one but Marvel gives a crap.

Speaking of which, the Marvel suit was the first--and only--of its kind going after user-created content and Marvel lost. NCsoft didn't need to change anything and all the content remained intact. Link

They did lose but out of the kindness of NCSoft's heart they don't want anyone creating replicas of Marvel's characters. I don't know what would happen if someone did because I've never seen one but it's part of the ToS that they really don't want copies of superheroes/villains. Actually I found this on wikipedia about Coty of Heroes ToS:

"The game includes in its User agreement strong language against such activity, however. It forbids the creation of potentially infringing characters, and NCI has been known to delete or rename such characters. The User Agreement additionally holds players accountable to indemnify (reimburse) NCI and its affiliates against third-party infringement claims, and demands either a granting of sole ownership in player created content, including characters, to NCI, or a warranty that a third party owner of the rights in player created content has made such a grant.[23] It is unclear whether this grant is an exclusive assignment or a non-exclusive license, however."

Marvel did scare people modding Freedom Force to take down all their content on their private websites but like you said, Marvel seems to be the only real case of this.

It just seems like Sony and MM didn't do their homework and weren't prepared for a modding community and the freedom their toolset instills to its users.smerlus

Pretty much. It just looks like they don't know what they got themselves into with the user-created aspect of the game and now they're just tapping in the dark looking for a "solution" which isn't there. This game needs to be Steamed. :wink:

[QUOTE="_AbBaNdOn"]

And incidentally, is there an abundance of AO software on the PC? Because last time I checked, PC developers weren't really making AO games on the PC either.

 

Grammaton-Cleric

You need to google more lol there's a boat load of AO games for PC lolz. 

[QUOTE="OneWingedAngeI"]

look, these levels are not being modded due to legality for the most part, although some of them are. taking a picture of the batman logo and slapping it in the game will and should get your game removed, because it is a 100% copy of the logo. however, user levels BASED on other properties are considered homages and are protected under parody rights. sony and/or media molecule is just taking the ultra safe route.

the bottom line is that it has killed this game for me. what was once a must buy is now something only worth a rental at best. the game has lost a ton of its value and turned off a large part of the community. for a game that lives or dies by its community, this is a fatal error. RIP LBP.

dvader654

Overreactions like this is what I dont get. Again the moderation is about fitting with the E rating not paying homage to other properties. Exactly as you have described, if a level is just an homage and does not use copywrited images it is safe, there are a ton of levels based on other properties still fine. Azure Palace and World of Color are 100% original and they were taken down but what has to be something about violence or grief abuse.

Again even with these levels being down there are still a ton of levels. Explain why this is a failure if you can still play thousands of user level. Actually this controversy is proff of what a huge success LBP is, I have never seen game sites, gamers and the like all come together and petition a game company to bring back a USER level. Its unheard of to see a regular gamer like you and me become a hero in a community and something the whole LBP community is supporting. This has never happend before, goes to show what a success this idea has become. If anything LBP will be stronger than ever because of it, MM is hearing the complaints, this will all be resolved soon.

Thank You.

Again this issue has been taken way out of proportion. Yes, it sucks to have your favorite batman level removed. Yes, it sucks that the gam's online portion has an E rating, but you still have tens of amazing levels posted EVERYDAY. Those who were in the beta or who actually have played the User Created Levels in the final game realized that there's more to this game than a few levels that were taken down. 

I have never seen game sites, gamers and the like all come together and petition a game company to bring back a USER level.dvader654

It's because nobody has removed user-created content before.

[QUOTE="dvader654"]I have never seen game sites, gamers and the like all come together and petition a game company to bring back a USER level.UpInFlames

It's because nobody has removed user-created content before.

Exactly, I've never heard of this kind of mass deleting of content for any reason.

[QUOTE="OneWingedAngeI"]

look, these levels are not being modded due to legality for the most part, although some of them are. taking a picture of the batman logo and slapping it in the game will and should get your game removed, because it is a 100% copy of the logo. however, user levels BASED on other properties are considered homages and are protected under parody rights. sony and/or media molecule is just taking the ultra safe route.

the bottom line is that it has killed this game for me. what was once a must buy is now something only worth a rental at best. the game has lost a ton of its value and turned off a large part of the community. for a game that lives or dies by its community, this is a fatal error. RIP LBP.

dvader654

Overreactions like this is what I dont get. Again the moderation is about fitting with the E rating not paying homage to other properties. Exactly as you have described, if a level is just an homage and does not use copywrited images it is safe, there are a ton of levels based on other properties that are still fine. Azure Palace and World of Color are 100% original and they were taken down, so it has to be something about violence or grief abuse.

Again even with these levels being down there are still a ton of levels. Explain why this is a failure if you can still play thousands of user levels. Actually this controversy is proof of what a huge success LBP is, I have never seen game sites, gamers and the like all come together and petition a game company to bring back a USER level. Its unheard of to see a regular gamer like you and me become a hero in a community and someone the whole LBP community is supporting. This has never happend before, goes to show what a success this idea has become. If anything LBP will be stronger than ever because of it, MM is hearing the complaints, this will all be resolved soon.

its a combination of everything. the losing of homage levels takes out a huge huge factor for myself, as it is one of the primary things i would like to do with the game. strike one. as you say, perfectly legit levels are disappearing, presumably based on not fitting into a G rating, but still with no official explanation at all. strikes two and three. finally, all of these minor issues and poor planning has taken the wind out of the sails during a very crucial time for such a game. LBP arrives in the midst of juggernauts like gears 2 and the myriad of other huge titles of the holiday season. by the time i ever even considered playing LBP again, my interest level will be paltry.

it is a slip up of epic proportions and for me at least, probably the end of the LBP story. im sure the game will sell well through the holiday but i expect the community to horribly die down in the next month or so. being able to tell your buddy, "hey, go check out this sweet zelda II level in LBP" could have done a ton to keep interest in the game. 

[QUOTE="OneWingedAngeI"]

look, these levels are not being modded due to legality for the most part, although some of them are.... RIP LBP.

dvader654

Overreactions like this is what I dont get. Again the moderation is about fitting with the E rating not paying homage to other properties. Exactly as you have described, if a level is just an homage and does not use copywrited images it is safe, there are a ton of levels based on other properties that are still fine. Azure Palace and World of Color are 100% original and they were taken down, so it has to be something about violence or grief abuse.

Again even with these levels being down there are still a ton of levels. Explain why this is a failure if you can still play thousands of user levels. Actually this controversy is proof of what a huge success LBP is, I have never seen game sites, gamers and the like all come together and petition a game company to bring back a USER level. Its unheard of to see a regular gamer like you and me become a hero in a community and someone the whole LBP community is supporting. This has never happend before, goes to show what a success this idea has become. If anything LBP will be stronger than ever because of it, MM is hearing the complaints, this will all be resolved soon.

This. The situation has been blown way out of proportions. Even using the basic search function you'll find tons of tribute levels, many with hundreds of thousands of plays. If Sony or MM are deleting content based solely on the fear of copyright infringement, then they're doing a horrible job.

I would agree that most of the moderation is a result of M-rated content in this E rated game. I realize that it's user generated and that neither MM nor Sony should be held accountable for the uncontrollable actions of its users, but face it - We don't live in that world. In the world we live in, user generated content exists in a proverbial grey area; some people believe that game developers should be held accountable, some don't. Sony is not overreacting they are simply reacting...reacting to the fact that every politician in America has his/her ironsights aimed right at the console industry (you can get away with murder on PC, though). One of the most consistent accusations against the ESRB is that it's used to mask true game content, to decieve, manipulate in a fashion where mature titles can slip through the watchful hands of parents and into the hands of minors. What better proof could proponents of this argument have than a very cute E-rated game featuring blood, gore and the occasional sacrifice? I don't believe this is Sony or MM, i think it's console politics. Maybe Sony should stand up on this, but it's not my reputation or money on the line.

One possible solution would be to use a content filter based on the tag system, where users could play a module and have a second tag option that would allow them to rate it based on age content. Parents could set their child's home module to filter out tags like "blood" or any of the available tags they deem inappropriate. It's not the best fix, but now that the game's out there's little more you can do. I think this game was rated wrong by the ESRB from the outset. Sony wanted it to be an E, but that's another world we don't live in - as Sony is now realizing. User generated content in any game will always span the the rating system.

One last thing: just play the game first. I know the political situation gaming finds itself in makes us a little jumpy when anyone even mentions the "c"-word, but the red-army hasn't begun its invasion just yet and liberty still prevails...mostly.. on Little Big Planet. It's not as bad as some would make it out to be...not nearly.