Why Won't Nintendo Listen to Gamers?

@MirkoS77: Nintendo only made one of those games, and its actually a very fun party game. Dat new Zelda tho! Nintendo tha best.

The constant (exception being the Wii) loss of market share seems to be ignored by those supporting Nintendo. Of course Nintendo is solid when it comes to money but when you've lost market share and a base starting with the SNES, it might be the time to start asking others why it is happening and what can be done to stop it rather than believing another Mario is the knight in shining armor.

Nintendo has something called selective hearing.

@MirkoS77 said:

@velius said:

Why the hell would Nintendo listen to anyone? About anything? I work as an accountant and I can tell you that in terms of profit Nintendo is an oak.

Beyond that, every single time Miyamoto tried to cater to gamers, all they did was whine. He made Wind Waker, a beautiful treasure, and people complained that it was too different from OoT. He made Twilight Princess which might be the best Zelda game ever made, and people complained that it was too similar. People aren't going to be happy, because they don't know what they want. They want to complain, and they want someone to tell them what to like.

Nintendo has a better idea of what is good than the masses, and it has a better idea of what makes a good game than any other company. Until their games start sucking, they will continue to ignore recommendations and criticisms, whether they're valid or not.

Unless you've not noticed, much of their games have started to suck. Amiibo Festival, Mario Tennis, Starfox, and we can soon add Federation Force to that pile. They will continue to ignore, because of hubris and arrogance.

I don't think a company should ever do exactly what their fans want, however I do think they should always be aware of general market desires and keep their past in mind in recognition of how and why it got them so beloved in the first place. Nintendo not only doesn't, they make it a point to be tone deaf and take pride in it. It's why they're in the position they're in today with fans that are quickly losing patience.

There will always be games that cater to different crowds that will suck in our estimation. This is not new. Nintendo has done this before. Federation Force isn't bad- it isn't released. You don't like it because it's not what you wanted, which is a very different kind of thing. Now I think there is a point to be made about calling something Metroid when it is very much un-Metroid in an uncontested manner, but that doesn't mean something sucks.

Dunno what you're talking about with StarFox. It's great. Not really an original game, but it's great and it's funny that you'd mention them not listening to the fans because that's exactly what they did-- the game is essentially an homage to StarFox 64, which is what everyone was asking for. There are tons of nods to the first two original games and to the cancelled SF2, if you think it sucks you're just not into that kind of game or you haven't played it.

Remember that we're still coming off an impressive battleship called Mario Maker, released late last year. That's not just a good game. It's outstanding in its content, variety and general fun. I won't be so dismissive as to say the well hasn't been dry, because it has. But that's because they've abandoned the Wii U and are putting the bulk of their assets into NX.

And Nintendo isn't tone-deaf, nor are they losing fans. Breath of The Wild won across the charts at E3. Even IGN loved it. Tone deaf is a misnomer, they are very much aware and in tune with what is going on.

Not really relevant but I thought it was funny that you said "Unless you haven't noticed" instead of "In case you haven't noticed." "Unless you haven't noticed" implies that the games won't suck unless I don't notice them. Imagery there is kinda funny.

With so many of you saying they need to just make a system as powerful as the Xbox One and get third-party developers back on board is JUST what we were all saying before the Wii U came out. What did the Wii U get us? It was a little more powerful than a X360/PS3. It had confusing marketing. Shoe-horned in tablet controller that is all but required but totally underutilized or realized. We had initial third-party support that ended less than a year into the Wii U's life cycle.

I used to love Nintendo and never even gave the PS2 or Xbox another thought back in the day. But now, you can't own just a Nintendo console because there are so many other great games on the other platforms. But Nintendo is like the lonely kid playing all by itself on the playground with no interest in attracting others to join it in the fun that could be had.

Sony figured out how to balance the eastern and western markets but Nintendo is clearly not interested in attracting gamers though we're not sure who they are interested in attracting. The nostalgia business will only last so long. The mobile domination alongside smart-phones will not last forever. Time will make them irrelevant.

Firstly, I'm going to go out on a limb here and wager that Federation Force will end up scoring and selling poorly. Probably worse than Starfox.

Secondly, you're right: it's not what I (and many others) wanted, and this goes to my point: Nintendo doesn't listen and is tone deaf. It is evidence enough they would reveal Federation Force at E3 2015 when so many have been desperately hankering for a proper Metroid, and the vehement outpouring of frustration and anger after by its fans over it (so much so that Reggie had to come out and actually address it) is 100% indicative they had NO idea of the degree people are at their wit's end. Or, "they're very much aware" and just don't care. Which is worse? This is nothing to include of what I mentioned in my previous post, such as so many wanting competent online with modern accounts, better third party support, more software variety, less anti-consumer policies, better hardware parity, less gimmicks, and respect given to their older IPs (F-Zero, Wave Race, 1080).

Gamers wanted a new Animal Crossing, and what do they get? Bare-bones Happy Meal toy software. Even Starfox (yes I owned it, played it as much as I could tolerate, and I'm also into those types of games), Nintendo disregarded everyone's wishes. People wanted an evolution on the franchise in terms of software advancements, not cheap gimmicky hardware bullshit implementations regurgitated in a nigh carbon copy of a game that came out NINETEEN YEARS AGO. They didn't desire a replica of Starfox64 with motions control distinctions, they wanted one that actually looked like it somewhat belonged in 2016 presentation wise with proper enhancements respective to the evolution of contemporary game design and standards, and if you (or Nintendo) believes that the former is what gamers are meaning when they desire a new Starfox, I don't know what to say. I never heard anyone state, "I want another game that looks and plays like Starfox64 but only with motion controls!" . I would like to think this would be known without the necessity of elaboration.

Do you honestly believe Nintendo isn't losing fans? As Solar noted, they have been suffering declining marketshare in the console space with the exception of the outlier Wii (which was successful predicated upon the backs of non-enthusiasts) since the NES, and now they're back to their old trends....the U is their worst selling system ever. Mindshare is at an all-time low, and trust is being eroded. They suffered three years of consecutive losses up until last year, largely aided back to profitability by their Amiibo initiative. And so what about BotW's reception? It's one game, no matter how good. How you are coming to see that as synonymous to fan retention, I have no idea.

And finally, not really relevant, but I found a grammatical error in your posting as well.....but I'll not bother reposting it, as it's pointless nitpicking to the point of being an ad hominem when I know what you're attempting to convey.

Yes! Wouldn't that be sweet? There are more and more japanese games coming out on the PC these days, and they aren't any worse for it.

@MirkoS77: Well, I don't know how to say it again other than just to repeat it- just because they don't do what you say doesn't mean they're tone deaf. Really curious that you keep going back to that term. Tone deaf insinuates that someone cannot hear the key, melodic line and harmony in which they're supposed to join. I've sung with people who are tone deaf before- it is a very different experience from singing with someone who commences an improv solo. You may mean something else when you use that term but the idea of tone deafness insinuates that someone is unaware. To say that Nintendo is unaware is simply incorrect.

Do I believe they're losing fans? I believe that the Wii U is, as you said, their worst selling console. The one right before it, the Wii, was their best. But I imagine you feel the same way about the quality of their games right now that you did back then, and I would agree. "Losing fans" is a very broad term with a number of valid connotations and you've forwarded it in a matter that suggests euclidean geometry. I feel like your contentions are pointed in different directions, and they're not really focused enough to address in a coherent manner. If we're talking numbers like you seem to be hinting here (I could be misinterpreting you), one could argue that during the era of the Wii, Nintendo had attracted more and more fans, and I would have problems with that kind of claim. But generally, when someone talks about the problems between Nintendo and their fans, what they're really talking about is Nintendo's failure to craft software dedicated to the children of the 80's/90's as often as we like. This is something I deal with too.

I wanted a Metroid this generation, absolutely.

I remember seeing Wind Waker after Spaceworld 2000 and I was just as bitter and incredulous as everyone around me.

I was pissed when I discovered Nintendo would not bring Final Fantasy II and especially III overseas to the Nintendo. Same thing with V.

I thought, and still think, that Donkey Kong Jr. is a bad game.

So I repeat, Nintendo not listening to its fans is not a new thing. That doesn't make them tone deaf, or oblivious or whatever. My original point also remains- they've no reason to. They've established themselves as a juggernaut of the industry and they house game designers everyone else would love to acquire. They are working on the things that, according to their best analysis, contributed to the problems of the Wii U, and are keeping the things they think are important. To call them tone deaf is a misdiagnosis and a very obtuse examination of their problems. It also insinuates that they don't react, which isn't true. Has the Wii U lost a great deal of projected sales? Of course. But the failure of the Wii U does not lie within the quality of their software- a great deal of it lies in their campaigning. Nintendo's new President has emphatically stated that the NX is going to be nothing like the Wii or its successor, a direct and obvious reaction to what they experienced with the Wii U; again, in-congruent with the sentiments of calling someone "tone deaf."

Has Nintendo lost its fans? Judging from E3, the most recent and valid barometer, absolutely not. They showed one game and it was the absolute best. People were foaming at the mouth.

Your concerns are valid-- I wouldn't have quoted you except for one thing- that you say their games have sucked lately. Since sucktitude is going to vary from person to person I'll not try to sway one who says Nintendo games suck-- a lot of people say that. But to say that they suck NOW, that they've somehow lost their mojo or to make any number of similar insinuations is simply incorrect in my opinion, and suggests an inattention to the history of the company as a whole or, more likely, heavily tinted glasses.

Syntactical errors are different from grammatical ones.

He (Mirko) is one of a plethora of people who are not happy with Nintendo and I'd also include myself in the mix. The MASSES have been vocal yet Nintendo doesn't listen. Federation Force was not well received by an overwhelming amount of people rather than a few as your position would have me believe. The trailers and footage are not helping this upcoming game even though Reggie seems to think we are morons. Sales of software and hardware show me the displeasure with Nintendo is not isolated to a small bunch.

@velius: During their heyday Nintendo had 90% of the console market. Now they have what? 5%? Doesn't matter if they are aware or unaware of the developments in hardware, the internet, games, etc. if they stubbornly stick to the same course regardless of what's happening around them. The problem is that they think they have a chance of being industry leaders through hardware when everybody else has surpassed them there on all fronts. It probably has a whole lot to do with the fact that they could dominate the market completely in the past with hardware. Unfortunately they've started to rely way too much on their pedigree and it's obvious they seem to believe that appeals to nostalgia will be their rescue in an increasingly competitive marketplace where they have been left behind. It's completely obvious in their software, while the hardware remains an excuse to sell exclusives, like it's always been. However, they forgot that they need to bring something new to the table or at the very least make a worthwhile follow up to the system it was intended to replace.

Lots of haphazard attempts to define what it means for Nintendo to be out of touch with their potential customers, all amounting to nothing. Just take a look at sales. I don't know what kind of Nintendo fans sit on their wallet for 3½ years and counting without picking up a Wii U, if they think Nintendo is doing what's right for them. How anybody today, in retrospect, could fail to draw the conclusion that the Wii attracted a casual audience that had not yet been attuned to cheap and simple games on mobile devices is a mystery to me - as if it wasn't obvious already at the time. It took a very long time before they even considered having a presence there, but as we all know Nintendo is a follower there now with their mobile apps. I wonder why? Due to an overestimation of the size and importance of their remaining core fanbase?

@Solaryellow: I didn't say that Fed Forces was well received. If I did, or gave the impression that I did, it wasn't intentional.

Nintendo is the leading console seller this gen. What the heck you smokin! Yall fanboys be so freakin blind.

By saying it "isn't bad" gives me the impression you look at it more favorably than unfavorably. I'll be the first to admit I am a Metroid mark and I'd absolutely love this gave to be phenomenal but what has been released thus far is not good. Look what happened after E3 2015 when it was shown. People were quite vocal and direct with their criticism and how did Nintendo react? Reggie came out to do damage control and essentially said we do not know what we are talking about. One also has to be concerned when it was absent from E3 this year.

Because gamers are fickle, self-entitled garbage that doesn't really know what they truly "want" out of a game and will bitch for more of something, then bitch when they actually get more of it. Throughout Nintendo's entire history, this has been proven time and time again, especially with the Zelda franchise.

Nintendo exists as a business, like any other in this industry, to make a profit. We, the consumer, aren't required to like everything they put out, or even buy it. They are held to an entirely different standard than the rest of the industry, and get dog-piled by critics/gamers whether they deliver a quality game or not.

I will remain a Nintendo fan so long as they continue to deliver quality products that I can enjoy playing, no matter how much I "want" them to make another X-game in Y-franchise. I recognize that it may not make good business sense, and respect them for not wanting to sell at a loss just to make me, a sole individual happy.

They do sell the Wii U at a loss, and they're not held to a different standard than the rest of the industry; they try to enforce their own standards apart from the rest of the industry and try - or tried, rather - to peddle outdated hardware like if it was new.

http://www.gamespot.com/the-legend-of-zelda-the-wind-waker/ - a score of 8 - and that's on a HD remake of a 13 year old game (!). Different standards, what are you on about?

@velius: I'll reply to this quote by quote, as I want to address these individually. I'll put yours in italics.

"Well, I don't know how to say it again other than just to repeat it- just because they don't do what you say doesn't mean they're tone deaf. Really curious that you keep going back to that term. Tone deaf insinuates that someone cannot hear the key, melodic line and harmony in which they're supposed to join. I've sung with people who are tone deaf before- it is a very different experience from singing with someone who commences an improv solo. You may mean something else when you use that term but the idea of tone deafness insinuates that someone is unaware. To say that Nintendo is unaware is simply incorrect."

When I say tone deaf I mean they make it a point to not listen....this is generally what people mean when using it. But technically you're correct. It's unawareness--but they've been guilty of that as well. Case in point: do you remember this article, where it was noted that Nintendo had difficulty in aiding outside developers regarding online with the U, as they were completely unaware of what PSN and Live entailed? Is tone deaf not befitting terminology in this case? So no, I believe to say that Nintendo is 100% aware (as you imply) is the incorrect position here. And if they're not aware of the most widespread and successful online console infrastructures in gaming today, you have to wonder.....what else are they unaware of?

"Do I believe they're losing fans? I believe that the Wii U is, as you said, their worst selling console. The one right before it, the Wii, was their best. But I imagine you feel the same way about the quality of their games right now that you did back then, and I would agree. "Losing fans" is a very broad term with a number of valid connotations and you've forwarded it in a matter that suggests euclidean geometry. I feel like your contentions are pointed in different directions, and they're not really focused enough to address in a coherent manner. If we're talking numbers like you seem to be hinting here (I could be misinterpreting you), one could argue that during the era of the Wii, Nintendo had attracted more and more fans, and I would have problems with that kind of claim. But generally, when someone talks about the problems between Nintendo and their fans, what they're really talking about is Nintendo's failure to craft software dedicated to the children of the 80's/90's as often as we like. This is something I deal with too."

If my contentions are unclear or appear contradictory, point them out and I'll articulate. If we're discussing Nintendo fans, yes, I believe numbers are the easiest and generally most accurate barometer to judge that fandom, sans the Wii (for obvious reasons). It is easy to distinguish, as Nintendo's systems are 90% supported by 1st party software. MS and Sony lean heavily on 3rd parties, so it's a bit harder to label someone a Sony/MS fan in their console purchase. When people buy a Nintendo system, they are buying it nigh solely due to Nintendo games. As for children of the 80s and 90s....or children of the 00s....what does it matter? You buy a Nintendo system, you are a fan of Nintendo's work. I really don't see how it's not that simple, it's a viable metric. Of course you can be a fan of Nintendo and not own their hardware, but that's ultimately what matters.

So I repeat, Nintendo not listening to its fans is not a new thing. That doesn't make them tone deaf, or oblivious or whatever. My original point also remains- they've no reason to. They've established themselves as a juggernaut of the industry and they house game designers everyone else would love to acquire. They are working on the things that, according to their best analysis, contributed to the problems of the Wii U, and are keeping the things they think are important. To call them tone deaf is a misdiagnosis and a very obtuse examination of their problems. It also insinuates that they don't react, which isn't true. Has the Wii U lost a great deal of projected sales? Of course. But the failure of the Wii U does not lie within the quality of their software- a great deal of it lies in their campaigning. Nintendo's new President has emphatically stated that the NX is going to be nothing like the Wii or its successor, a direct and obvious reaction to what they experienced with the Wii U; again, in-congruent with the sentiments of calling someone "tone deaf."

As my example above supports, they do appear oblivious. And yes, they were a juggernaut of the industry.....but that was long ago; they are not nearly as relevant as they once were. Their console marketshare (aside the outlier) is in decline. Nintendo has taken a long time to put initiatives into play and try to turn things around after taking years of financial hammerings. Yes, they are finally acting, but don't count your chickens before they're hatched and the fruits of these changes has even come to pass. How can you know what their analysis has brought forth, much less predicate a point upon it? Really, to say that my accusation of them being tone deaf is incongruent because of action they're taking now (that we've yet to see the outcome of) is a bit premature.

Has Nintendo lost its fans? Judging from E3, the most recent and valid barometer, absolutely not. They showed one game and it was the absolute best. People were foaming at the mouth.

.....and I'll repeat: one game? So what? You selectively choose to ignore the vitriolic outpouring of anger from gamers about the Zelda delay, about not revealing the NX, about feeling the U has been abandoned, about the frustration that's been building towards Nintendo for years now on various fronts (online, YT policies), about shrinking console sales, about these massive droughts. Do you find it sensible to make a judgement on the fandom of an entire company on the back of one game at a gaming convention in the face of all these? Recognize hype when you see it, as passion is the worst barometer to make a determination on anything.

Your concerns are valid-- I wouldn't have quoted you except for one thing- that you say their games have sucked lately. Since sucktitude is going to vary from person to person I'll not try to sway one who says Nintendo games suck-- a lot of people say that. But to say that they suck NOW, that they've somehow lost their mojo or to make any number of similar insinuations is simply incorrect in my opinion, and suggests an inattention to the history of the company as a whole or, more likely, heavily tinted glasses.

I said that much of their games have sucked recently, and I stand by that statement. I know Ninty's history, but I won't disagree I view them through a cynic and pessimist's lens. You're right, claims towards their software is ultimately subjective so this is a line not worth much pursuit, regardless, I think an argument can be put forth that the recent past has, objectively, seen some of Nintendo's weakest output yet. I don't find this coincidental considering the U's abysmal performance as I don't think Nintendo wishes to put their full effort behind a dying horse and while I can (somewhat) understand that from a business perspective, I don't really see it defensible from a gamer one.

Syntactical errors are different from grammatical ones.

....and yet, they reside both in the realm of nitpicking, when again, one understands what the other is saying.

@MirkoS77: You seem a sensible person. I really think we just don't agree on what tone deaf means. You said it means that they make a point not to listen. That's not being tone deaf- that's just being obstinate. Tone deaf is when you're sowing discord in the ensemble. The operative sentiment in the use of that word is that the person is unaware, and you're just not going to get me to agree that they're oblivious.

I'll not say there's nothing to worry about. Nintendo is set in their ways. They do what they want, and while in the long run it works out for them they have irritating moments in terms of timing, advertising and treaties with other companies that really do want to work with them. But one thing they are not, is ignorant of what's going on- in terms of their status or the status of the industry.

Good point on the nitpicking.

They have yet to get me on for a few reasons.

- The price of the Wii U is grossly bloated. I just can't get past it. It feels like a rip off.

- I like buying digital, that's a major issue on Wii U as it has a badly dated and frankly anti-consumer set up that makes me feel like building a digital library with them is like betting on a overweight three legged racing dog at the tracks.

- I don't care for having a bunch of boxes near my TV. I want one box that can meet all my needs, but Wii U doesnt have the developer backing to do that, and I doubt that will change with NX.

- Their emphasis on innovation for the sake of it over solid execution has resulted in a drop in quality in their once vaunted first party lineup. Star Fox deserved better.

- Infuriating mismanagement of the Virtual Console, which combined with reasonably priced hardware could have been enough yo get me on board.

Sure, I'd love to play Tokyo Mirage Sessions, just not on Wii U, because I can't think of a thing I would want to do with the system after that. Oh well, they always have a special place in my nostalgic 80s and early 90s memories.

Yet there is evidence standing contrary to that. Did you see my link? Nintendo was asked by a Wii U developer how its online functionality was similar to PSN and Live and they didn't know because they were, in so many words, oblivious. An excerpt:

"This was surprising to hear, as we would have thought that they had plenty of time to work on these features as it had been announced months before, so we probed a little deeper and asked how certain scenarios might work with the Mii friends and networking, all the time referencing how Xbox Live and PSN achieve the same thing. At some point in this conversation we were informed that it was no good referencing Live and PSN as nobody in their development teams used those systems (!) so could we provide more detailed explanations for them".

How could Nintendo, a multi-billion dollar international gaming giant, be unaware of their competitors' online features? If you don't want to agree that they're oblivious (at least in this case), that's your perogative but it doesn't change the evidence that supports it. And as I said, if it has happened here, where else? I do not agree that Nintendo's aware, at least not entirely.

Anyway, we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

Nintendo does give off a ego that seem to not value outsider opinion.

Nintendo's M.O. has always been "You do not know what you want. We will tell you what you want to play." This is a failed experiment and the current debacle should have been an eye opener for everyone in the position of making decisions. Nintendo needs to take responsibility for these failures rather than blaming the gaming community.

@Solaryellow: Nintendo tries to give their studios as much freedom as they can. They dont want to dictate their creations too much. No one likes a dictator.

The worst thing any company can do (much of the time) is take "the internet's advice". Why? Because "the internet" is full of salty, angry, and often ignorant people who don't really know what they are talking about.

I'm also wondering what special insights you have into the NX that nobody else does. What is it about NX that gives you concern?

Is that so? The gaming community is why the PS4 is doing great while the X1 is doing well. The same community is ignoring Nintendo because it does the same ole same ole. Based on what I have seen and experienced, it's Nintendo not knowing what it is talking about. Gamers seem quite abreast of the situation while Ninty resorts to the typical head in the sand approach.

So, I'm not saying that there should be no community engagement. A healthy, vibrant community is a great thing. I look at something like Super Mario Maker and I think that's the kind of strong community-driven content and engagement that is really required.

But the armchair analysis about what "Nintendo should do"? No. Why? Two major reasons:

First, most people don't really know what they are talking about. I don't mean this as an insult to anyone, I just mean that most fans don't really understand what Nintendo's advantages are as a company - I see a lot of people suggesting that, in effect, Nintendo should be making their version of a PlayStation (e.g. "just do what Sony is doing") - but that's a mistake, and Nintendo knows it. You don't beat competitors by being the same as them.

The second reason is a really important one, and I think a lot of people miss it: I am not a game designer. I have ideas about what I'd like, but I want to be surprised and delighted. I want a company to make the thing I didn't ever know I wanted. And Nintendo is great at doing that. I don't want to tell them what I want, I want them to show me new ways of thinking...I want them to surprise and delight me.

There's an inherent risk in that. Nintendo will not always get it right. Sometimes, innovations will not be well-received (Wii U, perhaps). And sometimes they will be really greatly received.

But does that mean I want Nintendo to give me exactly what I ask for in some predictable fashion? Hell no. :-)

Nintendo really don't have their heads in the sand; but they don't run their company by focus groups. I think that's a very important point to understand. They don't always get it right, but they seek to show us something different to what we get with their competitors. And I for one really want to see them push harder and harder into that way of thinking - the last thing they should do is retreat from it, and push out something safe and predictable, simply because some people ask for that.

i agree Nintendo always do the same ole thing and thats why the PS4 is going to stay on top.

QFT this is wise!

Also, neither Sony nor Microsoft changed direction because of anonymous internet posters, they did it because of the millions of potential customers who weren't buying their products.

This thread is over a month old. Why the bump?

two alt accounts that want to bash Nintendo. It's what they do.

I want to know why nintendo chooses not to release Mother 3 in the US. Earthbound has a freaking cult following and Mother 3 was released in 2006 I believe in Japan. Are you telling me in 10+ years Nintendo couldn't spare a small team to translate and port that to the US. Heck they only released the virtual console version in 2015 ONLY IN JAPAN. That took them 9 years. But hey let's pump out another Mario game.....

That new Mario game looks good. I haven't been this interested in Nintendo since GameCube or the original DS.

@kazeswen: but sony just did 4 times the same consol with more power for graphics ... I wouldn't call that very interesting ... no wonder we have so many games that feel like we already played them a 100s time already