XBOX Ones architecture/Power Gap vs PS4 Possibly not as big

You are sure that I understand this and I will refrain from posting easy to understand comparisons? What are you even trying to say?

You need to read what the last dude just posted because he managed to post completely inaccurate specs from that link.

Wow, remind me to never get in a specs argument with you, Solid.

I'm surprised people are still arguing the point that less is somehow more, and that more will not somehow manifest itself into what gets delivered on the shelf in some way.

You guys can claim specs all you want but I played Driveclub and Forza at the eurogamer expo and it was easily clear to me which console was superior.

I don't see any argument pointing or implying such a conclusion. What the core argument and has been the argument the whole time is that the power difference between the two systems is not as great as many would like to believe. A rather simple concept.

Sure you have. You have made the case, repeatedly, that the power differences will not manifest themselves in any appreciable way, which is advocating that less is more since most of the specs all favor the PS4. In fact, you did so in your response to me just now.

Its kind of disturbing that you can come to such a radical conclusion. But if that illogical conclusion of less is more makes sense to you then there is nothing left to say since logic is not going to be the foundation of this discussion.

@Shame-usBlackley:

Huh? Less is more? That is not what is being said.

The message is simple....the disparity in visuals will not be as dramatic has many think....Perhaps similar to this console gen....

I agree that it's disturbing, but I'm not the one advocating it. You are saying, essentially, that specs be damned, there will be no appreciable difference between a system that is faster and more powerful in most categories and one that is less powerful and slower in most categories. You are saying that something with less power is more than it is, hence less is more.

No, that is what you are concluding and you are making your absurd conclusion a factual but blatantly incorrect and warp interpretation of what is being said. But continue, I don't mind reading the absurdity of your conclusions its entertaining. :)

Okay, we'll ignore your talk of "smoke and mirrors" and how vastly everyone is overstating performance differences and act like you never said it. And I'll act like I can't conclude what you're saying when you say those things just because you say I can't LOL.

Oh! I am not saying those things weren't said. My statements were particularly clear. Your conclusion of it meaning less is more,is where the madness on your part began. As I have said before, you are always free to make illogical conclusions. According to you the Xbox One is faster than the PS4 because the difference between the two are not significant. Less is more == not a significant difference. Such logic is amazing to read. Don't let me stop you keep it coming.

Wow masterful trolling from Pedro here. It's like watching poetry in motion. We aren't just moving goalposts anymore, this is the next level of trolling. Let's walk back on everything we've been talking about this entire thread. Let's disregard facts and actual benchmarks in favor of gut feelings and questionable logic. And if that's not enough, let's pretend we never made these arguments.

And then finally, let's jump on one comment and make the argument about semantics. Incredible.

Haha, no. Madness is ignoring evidence staring you in the face. You have been doing everything in your power to assert that the difference in specifications will not manifest in improvements, despite people in this thread showing you hard data that suggest otherwise. According to YOU the Xbox One is faster than it is in reality because you insist that its deficiencies aren't deficiencies and it will somehow magically be able to maintain parity with a console more powerful than it is. "Smoke and mirrors" eh? And you call that logic?

I wonder if Pedro has multiple personalities or something.

We're wasting our time with him anyway -- everytime you or somebody else backs him into a corner, he just says something disparaging about both consoles and goes all PC elitist on them. You can't argue a point with a dude who has no point.

Your ability to change everything I stated into something completely opposite and something completely different is simply remarkable. I commend you on the ability to extract information and transform it into something else. Everything you claim I have said in this response I did not. Its amazing that you can incorrectly draw the wrong conclusion then hold me to your incorrect conclusion. Now that is quite astonishing to say the least. I told you to keep it coming and you did not disappoint. However, when ever you are ready to discuss what I actually stated feel free to give me the signal. :)

In your mind and in your universe I am always trolling. You spew information recklessly and it simply reaches a point where continuing the discussion is futile. And like every other time you fall back to "Pedro is trolling because he doesn't agree with me". But don't let me hinder you on the Pedro is trolling ritual.

@Shame-usBlackley:

Again....the point here is that the visual disparity will not be as large as many of you think...For all of the extra power the PS3 had, it was not visually leaps and bounds above the 360. Based on what we have seen thus far, from offerings on both consoles, this could very well be the case. If we notice any difference, it could be in the form of 1st party titles.

What Pedro is alluding to in terms of architecture, is relative in the sense that numbers do not always produce optimized results. That architecture can be impacted by bottle knecks, latencies, over heating...etc....And frankly this could happen on both systems....I have read up on a lot on the architecture on the XBX One....Not much exists on the PS4 outside of spec sheets...Sony has been very tight lipped...Still no confirmation on the final clock speed...Perhaps they can afford to be tight lipped as their specs have not been as scrutinized as the Xbox One.

The funny thing is that he's tried to discredit everything I've posted because well what does a random person on an online message board know. Hardware is too complicated for S0lid to understand.

Yet he ignores actual developer sources who state that there is a 50% advantage.

From Edge:

PlayStation 4 is currently around 50 per cent faster than its rival Xbox One. Multiple high-level game development sources have described the difference in performance between the consoles as “significant” and “obvious.”

Our contacts have told us that memory reads on PS4 are 40-50 per cent quicker than Xbox One, and its ALU (Arithmetic Logic Unit) is around 50 per cent faster. One basic example we were given suggested that without optimisation for either console, a platform-agnostic development build can run at around 30FPS in 1920×1080 on PS4, but it’ll run at “20-something” FPS in 1600×900 on Xbox One. “Xbox One is weaker and it’s a pain to use its ESRAM,” concluded one developer.

Microsoft is aware of the problem and, having recently upped the clock speed of Xbox One, is working hard to close the gap on PS4, though one developer we spoke to downplayed the move. “The clock speed update is not significant, it does not change things that much,” he said. “Of course, something is better than nothing.”

Xbox One does, however, boast superior performance to PS4 in other ways. “Let’s say you are using procedural generation or raytracing via parametric surfaces – that is, using a lot of memory writes and not much texturing or ALU – Xbox One will be likely be faster,” said one developer.

One source even suggested that enforcing parity across consoles could become a political issue between platform holders, developers and publishers. They said that it could damage perceptions of a cross platform title, not to mention Xbox One, if the PS4 version shipped with an obviously superior resolution and framerate; better to “castrate” the PS4 version and release near-identical games to avoid ruffling any feathers.

http://www.edge-online.com/news/power-struggle-the-real-differences-between-ps4-and-xbox-one-performance/

So there you have it. These devs have no clue what they are talking about.

When dealing with technology things are just straight additive where 4 is double 2. 1000 clock speed isn't x2 500 clock speed. It's like how pressure is more than x2 at 40 feet under water than 20 feet. Or like when dealing with electricity / batteries. You have to be able to use the energy effectively. Just because you have twice the amount of something doesn't mean it can be used efficiently and hence effectively.

What a fun thread. :)

Does this ritual involved nudity and booze? :)

Isn't Edge the same magazine that featured on their cover a PS4 and the tagline of "the only next gen system that matters" I wouldn't trust that toilet paper mag on anything. Biased journalism is a blight on this industry and they are at the forefront.

The PS4 being 50% faster is something I highly doubt and will believe it when I see it.

Every ritual worth participating in typically does. Or maybe I'm just being extremely impolite and inappropriate during other people's rituals. Not sure which.

Someone pass me the scotch.

It has a full hardware encoder, it doesn't require any compute resources. That diagram is demonstrating that parts of it are programmable if you wanted to do a hybrid solution, which could let you use customized algorithms and/or encode faster than 60fps. There's a brief overview in this article.

Edge created that cover after MS informed consumers that they had lost ownership of their physical games (no online, no play), could only play in select countries, that they had to buy an expensive monitoring device which could see in the dark and hear heartbeats connected and that the Xbone had to connect to the internet every 24 hours. There were a minority who embraced MS's bold attempt to abolish consumer rights, but most were appalled.

I guess you are part of that minority. While its true that in reaction to the backlash MS is no longer forcing those things, if you wish to keep your Kinect plugged in and your console always online you can still do so why you are holding a grudge against those who objected?

@S0lidSnake:

The problem with the Edge report is the use of anonymous sources. Who are these developers? Indie? First time developers? EA? And while no one is arguing that the PS4s GPU is more powerful, what we are saying is that visually the games are not going to look 50% better. Sure you"ll have slightly better textures etc....But the disparity will not be as large as you think.

How large of a disparity are people saying, exactly? People are reporting on what's being reported by credible sources and developers, and then people like Pedro and yourself are saying that's all a bunch of bullshit, and THEN get all butthurt and go back into Persecution Mode when people call you out on it.

I have heard Pedro say time and again that there will be little to no difference in what these two machines put out, and that isn't supported by and of the numbers being discussed here in the thread. Solid's already provided stats for the PS4, and they soundly beat the Xbone in most categories, all you guys have to do is read them, and I'd be willing to listen to a decent argument on them, but Pedro's got no argument and neither do you, at least from what I've seen. You're both just upset about the numbers being what they are, from what I can tell.

Has anyone said the games are going to look 50% better? I think that is you projecting your own insecurities into the arguments of others. You and Pedro, on the other hand, have made numerous attempts to damage control these numbers (hell, Pedro just made a thread tonight about it) and imply that there will be no difference between the two. From what I gathered before I jumped in, it is the two of you being far more definite on the outcome of the respective graphics of the two machines than anyone else.

As for which developers, does it really matter? I mean, I wouldn't really care if it was a PopCap dev or a Capcom dev who said it -- it's a developer, an authoritative source on game development.

@Shame-usBlackley:

Projecting my own insecurities? LMFAO! Did you really just say that? Listen here cheif....I do not have any insecurities about the Xbox One. It is going to be a great system. In reality both consoles are going to be great in their own right. So to accuse someone of insecurities over a game console is a bit misplaced.

Regarding the 50%, their is sentiment among some gamers that this will translate to 50% better visuals. Which is not entirley true. Some of us have discussed graphics because it relates to the conversation of the GPU on the PS4. Again, the perception of graphical differences, because of the power of the PS4, is that games will significantly look better. It is a misconception at best, and relevant to bring up.

What Pedro is trying to convey, is simple. That the games, the ultimate bench marks for a console, are not going to be that much different. Yes, we acknowledge that the PS4 has more power based on its spec sheets. What we are discussing is how that translates to the final product, the game.

Regarding the "anonymous" developers in Edges article, it is important who and where this information is coming from. It could be a first time developer, it could be a developer with a poor track record and so forth....Sorry bud...I am not a simpleton and therefore take anonymous sources with a grain of salt....

You and Pedro are arguing psychology ('Not as big a difference as we think you think there will be'!) not technology and you are fighting against a mindset which isn't common on this forum.

In this forum people usually say that the fact that the PS4 is more powerful and easy to develop for will translate into more developer support, some amazing console specific games (nods towards past games like Otogi, Ninja Gaiden, Riddick, The Last of Us, The Puppeteer and God of War 3) and better looking versions of multiplatform games.

Xbone defenders talk about the specs don't really matter because there could theoretically be bottlenecks (a possibility raised by MS reps in interviews) but developers have been working with the system for some time now and to the best of my knowledge no one has made such a complaint. On the contrary, most are effusive in their praise of the system.

Last but not least, employees of multiplatform publishers (pretty much everyone who still ships games on discs) who criticize hardware companies on the record find themselves involuntarily joining the indie scene, so you shouldn't be surprised that the criticism is anonymous.

m.... I dont know who comes up with the Cover headlines, but Edge's sources in the industry are IMPECCABLE. They got pretty much every rumor right.

• They were the first ones to break that the Xbox will have Online DRM. A lot of people on this board discredited them saying it is IMPOSSIBLE. MS cant really be that stupid. But guess what? Their sources were 100% accurate.
• They were among the first to post detailed specs of both consoles. Which were identical to the final specs.
• They were the only website that predicted Sony might be going with 8GB GDDR5 when some of Sony’s own first party devs had no clue Sony had settled on that. So their sources are probably the best and highest placed in the industry.

As for the hyperbolic nature of that cover, well was it really that hyperbolic? This was after E3 when MS had doubled down on many of their anti-consumer policies and were getting creamed in EVERY single online poll by a 90%-10% margin. The Amazon poll, IGN poll, Gamespot, Escapist, Giantbomb every poll had MS absolutely getting massacred. At least Edge had the balls to say what everyone was thinking.

Regardless, Edge has always had these hyperbolic covers. Look at their last gen covers.

They did a similar cover for PS3 which i cant find right now that basically asked whether Sony had already won and then a year later pretty much shat on it on the cover.

@CarnageHeart:

Arguing psychologies? No, I am arguing against some of the misconceptions floating around the internet, and here. While I agree that PS4 exclusive will look very good, I do believe that the gap in visuals will be about the same as it was this gen.

Regarding architecture, numbers, specs are only one piece of the equation. How those numbers work together is of more importance. If the architecture is not working effiently... Internal heat, bottle knecks and latency can be issues on any architecture. I am not saying that this will be the case with the PS4. I only make mention of this, because it was alluded to that only specs matter in relation to architecture.

At the end of the day, the games on both systems will look and play great. A win win for those of us who have the luxury of owning both next gen consoles. :-)

We're still having this discussion, months after it was settled?

Seriously?

The PS4 is more powerful.

It's a good deal more powerful, which is why Microsoft tried to say they would make up the difference with the "cloud".

When that didn't fool anyone, they claimed to increase the power of the X1, but that didn't make up for the power gap either.

Now . . . the Xbone fanatics are desperately grasping at straws, so they can pretend the two systems are the same.

They're not the same, the matter is settled.

Quit defending the indefensible.

Cerny has given many interviews where he specifically talked about how they made sure there were little to no bottlenecks in the system. I think the only bottleneck the PS4 might have is the CPU, but then again the PS4 GPU is more than capable of doing a lot of the compute operations usually handled by the CPU. MS can as well, but with only 12 CUs they are already at a disadvantage.

CBOAT made another post at gaf yesterday saying that 1080p will be an exception rather than the norm on the X1. After looking at Ryse get downgraded to 900p (again, there is a 44% increase in pixels when going from 900p to 1080p), Killer Instinct at 720p and Dead Rising at close to 720p than 1080p, you have to start admitting to yourself that the difference is there and it's substantial.

So far we have confirmation that only Forza is 1080p. On the PS4 side, we have Drive Club, Knack, Killzone, Infamous and Resogun all running at native 1080p. The only PS4 excluisve that isnt 1080p is The Order which has a full horizontal resolution of 1920 but for 'cinematic' reasons they are going with the vertical resolution of 800p with black letter bars.

And we haven't even seen games from Sony Santa Monica, ND and Media Molecule.

No one has said only specs matter. Cerny has been forthright about the fact that the hard to program for PS3 was a massive screw-up on Sony's part and that with the PS4 he sought to make a system which was not only powerful, but easy to program for. Developers are unanimous in saying that he got it right. Aside from the ease of development, indies were thrilled that Sony was prioritizing them (chasing after them and allowing them to self publisher) while MS when it rolled out the Xbone flatly stated there would be no self publishing.

Core gamers are happy that Sony is focusing on them and offering them a powerful, affordable system (in part by not cramming in expensive controllers of dubious utility like MS and Nintendo are doing).

And to reiterate, nobody besides MS has talked about PS4 bottlenecks which given all of the PS4 devkits floating around (an indie game is announced for the PS4 literally every few days) is a strong indicator that there are no bottlenecks.

http://www.joystiq.com/2013/06/28/cerny-ps4s-time-to-triangle-to-rival-ps1/

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/ken-levine-praises-playstation-4/1100-6405715/

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2013/04/02/epics-mark-rein-gives-props-to-the-ps4s-pc-friendly-architecture.aspx

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=523053

I completely agree with your point that both systems are going to host lots of quality games,.

@S0lidSnake:

Are you saying that their is a substantial noticeable difference visually, between 900p ( with higher pixel density ) and 1080p? If you are, than you are greatly mistaken.

BTW....Killer Instinct at 720p, from what I have read, runs very smooth with vwey detailed character models. Hect, its practically a free game! Outside of the $5 it cost to purchase a character to use.

I have played Crysis at 1080p and tried to go down to 900p to get better performance, and I instantly noticed a difference. I have been gaming on PC for the past two years and the difference b/w 900p and 1080p is just as substantial as the difference b/w 640p and 720p.

Then I stand corrected. The documents I reference showed it as a hybrid system and not dedicated. Obviously in the case of the hybrid encoding is overloaded to CUs. With that said, I am unable to find benchmarks that substantiate AMDs 1080p at 60FPS. Toms Hardware,Hybrid Benchmark. Have you tried encoding using AMD's VCE? If yes, are you getting the performance gains they are claiming? The information that I have seen only shown benefits when using the actual GPU. Feel free to point out what I am missing cause, the link you provided says one thing and the benchmarks is showing something different. It is quite possible that their isn't any good software that utilizes the standalone VCE capabilities however, if the performance is closer to the benchmarks then hybrid would be the way to go which would infringe on the GPU. Again feel free to point me in the right direction.

@S0lidSnake:

Well if you staring in front of a PC monitor vs a TV, you will notice a difference in resolution. When you down scale on your PC to 900p, you are not gaining a boost of 44% in pixel density. That would seem counter intuitive to increasing cpu performance on the PC.

Digtal Foundry did post some pictures of 900p vs1080p....visually it was to close to tell....I ll go by their pictures vs what you have posted.

Well you should probably check out the link below. If you scroll half way down the page, you will see the comparison between 900p & 1080p. This comparison is particular nice, as it allows you to move your curser over, zoom and compare. Visually you will notice that what you stated, is not exactly true here. The pictures actually show no real difference at 900p vs 1080p. o_O

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-the-xbox-one-architects

I’ve always assumed multiplats would be relatively similar and that if anything, the true power differential would manifest in PS4 exclusives.

My point remains that even if visual fidelity is identical, MS still has the potentially large problem of selling a console that does the same thing but charges MORE for it.

You know that is not particularly true. They charge more because it does more and has more features not simply because. Now whether or not these additional features are worth the additional cost is up for grabs, for it varies from person to person.

Those screenshots do indeed show a lack of difference. I certainly see a difference when I run PC games at 900p so DF's comparison is a surprise. Oddly enough I am so used to 1080p that I am willing to drop the detail down to Medium-High just so I can keep the resolution at 1080p.

I highly doubt that a 44% increase in pixels will not manifest itself in a substantial advantage.

Areez, don't insult my intelligence by trying to act like you are impartial to these systems. I've watched how defensive you are regarding the Xbone, that's no secret. I mean, come on, dude -- really? REALLY?

The 50% thing has been brought up from a power standpoint, but I haven't seen anyone in this thread proclaiming the games are going to be X percent better looking. And what Pedro is trying to say is that he has lips on his ass then, because the games aren't even out. All we have to go by are the specs at this point. Trying to say anything authoritatively about the games is even less informed than arguing about specifications.

As for the developers, I'd take a developer's word on things, especially when the developer's stance is backed up by specifications and when there are numerous quotes all saying the same thing.

@Shame-usBlackley:

"Dont insult my intelligence"...Did you really just say that? Not that serious bud. .. Listen here cheif.....In reality I like what both systems have to offer. I am getting both consoles at launch because both consoles are great! Essentially the PS is my offline console and the XBX is my online console. I get the best of both worlds as a gamer. If I highlight some of the positive features of the Xbox One, it is because I do believe that a lot of the bashing of the console is unwarranted, perpetuated by misinformation, and by the view that MS is some how the evil empire.

All of the negative Xbox One bashing has just gotten old now and so I have bucked what is considered cool to do and focus on positive aspects of the console.

Truthfully, I like what MS is trying to and how they are pushing innovation. I am a techie and therefore have an appreciation of new tech....

As for the issue of developers, I d take their word if I knew who they were. For all we know they could be three schmucks who are developing for the first time...or perhaps they are not the best of developers....These are real scenarios to consider when reading an anonymous source...Which is why I take them with a grain of salt...

@Pedro:

One could make the argument that Kinect is an additional value but I am of the opinion that most casuals will not be shelling out 500 dollars for the newest upgrade to motion control and I certainly think there are plenty of core gamers like me who consider the Kinect utterly worthless and therefore a nominal value. I think MS may have placed their console in a bizarre state of consumer purgatory because casuals may see it as too expensive while many core gamers dislike having a peripheral shoved down their throats.

But value is subjective, which is why I called this a POTENTIAL problem rather than a definite issue. Personally, I think there is a good chance the PS4 will outsell the XBONE by a significant margin this holiday season precisely because of the price differential coupled with the core’s general apathy towards Kinect but that is merely speculation on my part.

We’ll see if I am correct over the next couple of months.

@Grammaton-Cleric:

Gram...welcome back, to the new and improved forums!

You brought up a very interesting point in your post, about the Xbox One being in a consumer purgatory of sorts.

I actually agree with you here and see the 360 selling more than the Xbox One this holiday season, because of the $500 price point.

My belief is that much like the PS3, the Xbox One will see a gradual adoption rate by casuals as the price of the console drops. Pure speculation on my behalf, but something that would not surprise me either.