Why Do You Care If Shovelware Exists?

no offense dude u wasted alot of time on something not even important who really cares ignore the ppl that say that stuff these threads are lame trin to shut up ppl its not going to happen so dont waste ur time. And also even if Shovelware is low budget company doesnt mean it has to make low budget games u made good points tho but who really cares....Cheezy-Beezy

Well, for one thing, the next time someone says "Shovelware is stealing from good games!!", someone else can just link this to them and it'll shut them up.

This is more like a long-term thing, it just gives people back-up information for their arguments in the future.

Nah, I don't think you have some hidden reason, I just found it strange that you didn't have one. But now that you say that it's only a nitpicky thing, it's no biggie. Sometimes we don't have reasons for little things bugging us, they just do. I understand.

bob_newman

I just read 3 pages of an argument that got nowhere fast. Now, it's finally over. Good work newman. :P

Anyway... On-topic...

Shovelware does bother me in a sense. It doesn't really bother me personally, I mean it's not like the games are jumping of shelves and attacking me. (if they did i'd run for the hills...)

However, it bothers me when someone I know buys shovelware. Maybe I care too much, I don't know. It's mostly with my sister. One time we were in Toys' backwards r' us and they were having a buy 2 get one free deal for DS games. She was going to buy what many would consider shovelware along with a good game to take advantage of the deal. That's cool to some, but me... NEVER!!!!! I don't know... I have a problem where I cannot stand seeing people waste money, especially when the money could go to something much better... Anyway, if I remember correctly, she left the store with just one game (the good one) and decided against the deal.

Well, that's my opinion on shovelware...

i see ur tring to help ppl that bash on ppl i just thought u were lookin for an argument or a debate sorry about that dude.Cheezy-Beezy

It's cool man, I know it seems like a waste of time, but really it didn't take too long to put this together. A lot of copy-and-paste though.

[QUOTE="Jaysonguy"][QUOTE="c-joel1121"][QUOTE="makaveli_89"]

[QUOTE="c-joel1121"]Why does it bother me, I already told you, I just don't like picking up a game with hannah montana next to it. I don't have to explain myself anymore to you. Its really just my opinion, don't get worked up over nothing.c-joel1121

that really doesnt seem like a reasonable answer...bob, i take back what i said.

Ok, I have to jump in

So do you follow this same path in other parts of entertainment?

Are there channels you don't like on your TV lineup? Do you not use the TV or complain to your provider to get rid of those channels?

you just said you dont like channels on your t.v so you dont watch them. Well if there are games you dont like on the wii Dont buy them. Thats all that Jayson was saying

shovelware = not my problem. I consider myself to be a well-educated wii owner who buys games that at or above my personal baseline for quality on account of reviews and rentals. If the game sucks, it collects dust...on the store shelf.

Everyone has different tastes though and some folks might get a kick out of a looney tunes kart racer or what have you. Doesn't bother me. At least people are buying their Wiis and having fun with them. The companies that have the resources to make good games will continue to do so, regardless of how many "little guys" put out games like Anubis so I'm not worried.

Why do you care if I care or not about shovelware?Junior_AIN

Oh, I don't care about if you care, just everyone else because they actually added to the discussion.

And I care because every day I hear people saying that shovelware is ruining gaming/shovelware takes funds away from other projects/etc, and I want to know why they think that when they're wrong.

Not really. It's quite avoidable.

My issue with it is that they are a waste of resources, all developers are capable of making good games. Its not some feat that is beyond everyone but the biggest companies, or most well known, anyone can do it, however when companies waste time making games that they know are terrible cash ins. They could be spending that time and effort on making a solid title for us.Sepewrath

Atari 2600? ET? Shovelware? Turned out well? I'm just sayin........

Now that your face has been officially rocked, you may discuss.

What about a game like Carnival Games? This pretty much constitutes shovelware, and it's sold over a million copies worldwide. Mario Party 8 was pretty much generally skewered by critics, and it's sold like 4 million copies. Obviously a big part of that would be the Mario name, but when you think about the fact that a big name like Metroid has sold about on par with a game like Carnival Games (and obviously is being destroyed by Mario Party), it sends a message to developers that serious games aren't what's in demand on the Wii. The creator of No More Heroes (Suda 51) already commented on this, saying he was surprised how badly "hardcore" games sold on the system, and Capcom stated that they were thinking of doing a game like RE4 on the Wii, but opted for The Umbrella Chronicles because they thought it was more casual-friendly.

I still think shovelware's a problem, but it's a problem because in conjunction with the dearth of casual party games on the system, developers are starting to see that there's no reason to focus their efforts around more serious titles for the Wii. As someone who owns a Wii and wants to see more games on par with RE4, Zelda, and MP3, I think it's a shame.

I care that shovelware exists because the more crappy games that are released, the bigger reputation the system gets for being a crappy console. A system is judged by it's games, so I don't want the Wii to be known as "the Ninjabread Man system" or "the one with all the bad mini-games" (which some people refer to it as already and it hasn't even been out for two whole years). Shovelware affects me because if the Wii becomes the shovelware console, no one buys the games, and no one invests money on the system. Then I own a dead console that has nothing but bad games I don't want to play.

Also, in the original post the TC mentioned that the developers couldn't help the games not being good because of the lack of a budget. Budgets shouldn't be a factor in the enjoyment of a game. That's part of the thing about being an indie developer: you don't have as big of a budget as the heavy hitters like Epic or Bioware. That doesn't mean you can produce a hit.

If these horrible games get bigger budgets, what do you think will happen? That they will start producing triple A gems? No...they'll just make bad games with shiny new textures and particle effects. So then you have pretty looking shovelware; that's still not fun to play, though, now is it?

So shovelware is, and has always been, bad for a console. There will always be bad games, but it just seems that the Wii attracts more than the other consoles because Nintendo just doesn't care about the quality of third-party games. Hopefully, that will change.

Lolz, bob_newman, you're WAY too argumentative and fascist with your approach.

And your 'absolutely unchallengable' argument is rather basic too, only based on two things: 1) the games don't sell very well 2) some people who buy the shovelware rate the games good. Maybe the buyers of these games don't know any better and I care because they think they are having a good video gaming experience when they could be having a much better one and learn how to seperate out good games from bad ones, which with the persistance of shovelware releases they may never do. So shovelware IS ruining gaming for these poor saps and they don't even realize it. Another point is that their cheaper price points sucker 3-child mothers into buying Wii Party over Mario Galaxy for no reason other than looking at which has a cheaper price tag. The kids might screw around and have fun with Party for a couple of hours, but then it will gather dust and the kids will miss out on a good gaming experience. If so much shovelware didn't exist, the parents in that situation would have less 'more economical' garbage titles to unwittingly choose over real games.

Or am I not allowed to think that because you've served everyone the holy truth?

Shovelware always existed. It's nothing new. I remember playing at McKids (a McDonalds game) on NES. It was fun when I was like 5-6 years old.

Shovelware always existed. It's nothing new. I remember playing at McKids (a McDonalds game) on NES. It was fun when I was like 5-6 years old.

chris3116

I actually liked McKids, primarily because it ripped off Super Mario Bros. 3 so much. It was an ok game, if suffering from bad level design in some places.

[QUOTE="Jakendo"]I care that it exists a little. When I go to buy games, some stores decide to sell alot of shovelware so it makes it harder to find the good games. bob_newman

Hmm...intersting.

That's definitely not the case in my city. Stores here have 2 shelves dedicated to Wii games, which is already better than the Gamecube had (usually half a shelf). To me, more shelves = more variety.

Not here were i live i got 8 stores that sell games down here (best buy, eb games, gamstop, 2 targets, circuit city, toys R us, and wal-mart) so if one dosent have the game i want then i know one of them will have it

the problems i see is tha my local blockbuster only caires (mostly) shovleware games and dont even carry some good games (no trauma center, no o more heros, no mp3) and all the good ones are always out like last weekend i wanted to rent Warioware and it wasent in so i ended up geting the first KOTOR (so mabey it was a blessing but either way)

so you see my point

(BTW KOTOR was a lot of fun)

And your 'absolutely unchallengable' argument is rather basic too, only based on two things: 1) the games don't sell very well 2) some people who buy the shovelware rate the games good.

GreyDawn

Yeah.

Maybe the buyers of these games don't know any better and I care because they think they are having a good video gaming experience when they could be having a much better one and learn how to seperate out good games from bad ones, which with the persistance of shovelware releases they may never do. So shovelware IS ruining gaming for these poor saps and they don't even realize it.

GreyDawn

But that's the point. They don't even know it, but didn't I point out that they're still having a good time?

When I was a kid, there were no sites to go to if you wanted to see some reviews. There were a couple magazines but that was it. If I wanted to know how a game was, I had to play it. I typically found that I had the most fun with games that appealed to me, whether the score was decent or not. In fact, many of the games that I played were God Awful.

Does that mean that I didn't enjoy them? No.

Does that mean that it made me resent the gaming industry? No.

Does that mean that I regret having..."wasted my time" playing these games? No. I had a blast playing them.

Remember, ignorance is bliss. And if I had an amazing time with my friends playing these crappy games, then I think shovelware isn't the problem. People enjoy the games, and whether or not you and I feel that those games are a waste of time, space, and money, is irrelevant. These people, as you said, don't even realize it. They don't know any better. So that means that they are having fun nonetheless.

You say that they could be having more fun? Well, when they start to learn more about gaming, they'll try new things. It doesn't mean that they'll regret it.

Did you buy your first computer knowing every spec about it before handing out the cash? Probably not. Did you buy the best bottle of wine you could find on your first try? Probably not.

Also, if these people didn't try out these more affordable games, they might not have even gotten into gaming. They could easily have just bought the Wii and stuck with Wii Sports and call it a day. But maybe, after trying out a few new things, they could start to learn more about the industry, maybe check a couple sites to see what people like (something they haven't done before), and go from there.

Another point is that their cheaper price points sucker 3-child mothers into buying Wii Party over Mario Galaxy for no reason other than looking at which has a cheaper price tag. The kids might screw around and have fun with Party for a couple of hours, but then it will gather dust and the kids will miss out on a good gaming experience. If so much shovelware didn't exist, the parents in that situation would have less 'more economical' garbage titles to unwittingly choose over real games.

GreyDawn

Maybe they didn't want to spend $50+ to try a new game they know nothing about. Would you spend upwards of $50 to buy a game if you knew nothing about the industry? These crappy shovelware games could be their first stepping-stone into gaming, they could be their "gateway drug" into better things (I'm not endorsing drug use here, by the way)

Or am I not allowed to think that because you've served everyone the holy truth?

GreyDawn

No, go ahead. Think whatever you want. You're allowed to have an opinion.

All I was saying is that people actually like these games, and the people who do buy them (the 2% of the Wiis userbase) are still having fun.

I totally agree, I hate when people say things like, oh they could spend there time making something better. Well clearly they can't, the people that make a lot of these games are probably new to the business, like just out of college, so they are probably making these games to work their way up to something bigger. Either that or they just have really bad ideas of what the public want.

The only thing I hate about it is how somehow Game and Gamestation (UK shops) someone manage to always have stuff like Anubis facing outwards (as in you can see the cover) whilst the great games are all usually the ones stacked like books so you can't see the covers, thus leading the casual crowd towards the games with covers showing.

What about a game like Carnival Games? This pretty much constitutes shovelware, and it's sold over a million copies worldwide. Mario Party 8 was pretty much generally skewered by critics, and it's sold like 4 million copies. Obviously a big part of that would be the Mario name, but when you think about the fact that a big name like Metroid has sold about on par with a game like Carnival Games (and obviously is being destroyed by Mario Party), it sends a message to developers that serious games aren't what's in demand on the Wii. The creator of No More Heroes (Suda 51) already commented on this, saying he was surprised how badly "hardcore" games sold on the system, and Capcom stated that they were thinking of doing a game like RE4 on the Wii, but opted for The Umbrella Chronicles because they thought it was more casual-friendly.

I still think shovelware's a problem, but it's a problem because in conjunction with the dearth of casual party games on the system, developers are starting to see that there's no reason to focus their efforts around more serious titles for the Wii. As someone who owns a Wii and wants to see more games on par with RE4, Zelda, and MP3, I think it's a shame.

SeanBond

Says a lot right there.

Also, if you're old enough thats great, if not research it, but remember what happend to the atari 2600 because of shovelware. Namely the wonderful game ET. Shovelware, if left unchecked, will eventually cripple a system. A system is known for the games you can play on it. And it will not survive with the revenue that these "god awful" games bring in. I agree with you that it will make some people into gamers that would have never become one, but what do those people do when there is nothing but shovelware games out there because the developers have forsaken the system, BECAUSE real hardcore games don't sell well? are they suppose to go out and buy a 360 or a PS3 that aren't completly invested with shovelware?

Its a double-edged sword. They become gamers because of the cheap shovelware games, and they give up gaming because thats the only thing that is released on their system and they tire of it. But thats the minority anyway, most people become gamers because they watch their brother or sister, or friends, playing a really cool game. The ones that start out on shovelware usually stay there until they get bored, never moving on to the better games.

You asked the question, "Why do you if shovelware exists?", and MY answer in a nutshell is because: If left unchecked, shovelware will destroy a system, its happened before, and it will happen again. The system will lose the support of the good developers, because of the shovelwar, and the system will fail on the revenues brought in by the cheap, bad games.

"MY answer" meaning its my opinion and its the reason i care whether or not shovelware exists. You asked and there's your answer. I know it doesn't "rock your face" or anything like that, but i don't care. :)

[QUOTE="Jakendo"]I care that it exists a little. When I go to buy games, some stores decide to sell alot of shovelware so it makes it harder to find the good games. bob_newman

Hmm...intersting.

That's definitely not the case in my city. Stores here have 2 shelves dedicated to Wii games, which is already better than the Gamecube had (usually half a shelf). To me, more shelves = more variety.

In my town, if I go to a place like Wal Mart I would ask "Hey do you have [insert good game here]" And unless it has the Nintendo logo on the cover or is shovelware, its a no. I check the game isle and wonder if those shovelware games didnt exist... I might have my game now :( I also hate it when a developer takes a really good idea but then makes a crappy game about it. When I first saw NinjBread Man I thought "This might be a unique fun title" but when I figured out that it wasnt that good... I was disappointed.

We just think its annoying cause

1) it gives wii a bad name

2) the money+time could go into a good game

3) the helpless ignorant parents+n00bs are the victims of shovelware. Those numbers u posted are the casulties.

kerv4005

Totally agree.

[QUOTE="c-joel1121"][QUOTE="Jaysonguy"][QUOTE="c-joel1121"][QUOTE="makaveli_89"]

[QUOTE="c-joel1121"]Why does it bother me, I already told you, I just don't like picking up a game with hannah montana next to it. I don't have to explain myself anymore to you. Its really just my opinion, don't get worked up over nothing.alexh_99

that really doesnt seem like a reasonable answer...bob, i take back what i said.

Ok, I have to jump in

So do you follow this same path in other parts of entertainment?

Are there channels you don't like on your TV lineup? Do you not use the TV or complain to your provider to get rid of those channels?

you just said you dont like channels on your t.v so you dont watch them. Well if there are games you dont like on the wii Dont buy them. Thats all that Jayson was saying

EDIT

but that wouldnt happen... the whole reason that these companies make shovelware is to get something out quickly and cheaply to make a quick buck... most of the time with these companies that are just going to shovel this crap out, if it would take a lot more time and money to make a decent game they would just forget the whole thing all together.
ag1052

Of course it wont, as long as there is a gaming industry, games like Spiderman 3 for the Wii will exist. This could have been a great game, I mean when the Wii was first announced names like a Spiderman game were the first ones toss around that would be a blast on the Wii. Instead the terrible end product was made, simply because they wanted to cash in with a minimal amount of effort. That didnt have to be the end result, they could have made a fun title, it wasnt an impossible endeavor. So while I am aware it will never end, my issue still remains a valid one.