Zelda: Overrated of Time.

@mand0n said: > dynamic and reactive enemies

Are you trolling or are you actually that fucking dense? Dynamic and reactive? 90% of the enemies in OoT have a set pattern of > move to the side while blocking > attack and occasionally jumping in the case of minibosses. The AI in OoT is only slightly better than ALTTP because they maneuver around you to breach your defenses. Fair enough - the enemy AI is slightly better in OoT, but it doesn't change a damn thing because that very same AI has a set pattern that you get used to early on into the game so none of the enemies can kill you. In ALTTP, the unpredictability of the AI causes you to react to the situation as it comes, rather than what you've been hard wired to remember. You never know how the fight will play out so you need to be on your toes - but in OoT you always know what to expect from the enemy movement and attack patterns.

"I also like how you mentioned Dark Link and Iron Knuckes, these two fights were better than anything ALTTP could muster. It makes it even worse for your argument."

If my argument was to completely and conclusively say all of OoT's enemies were predictable and stupid, then yeah - that certainly would make it worse for my arguments, but it wasn't and it doesn't. If all enemies in the game were like the Iron Knuckle and all minibosses were like Dark Link, then OoT would have the greatest combat out of any zelda game period.

"Don't tell me that's better than the 3D combat of OOT which while not great went far beyond just hitting shit rushing you with your sword."

Okay I'll tell you exactly that. It's better than the 3D combat of OOT which while not great simply changed the formula from hitting shit rushing you with your sword to hitting shit rushing with your sword after waiting 5 seconds for them to hit your shield. LUL Z TRGETING IZ SO INNOVATIV DA COMBAT IS SO REACTIVE N DA ENEMIES R SO SMRT. The way you describe it makes me think that you're confusing this for a Dark Souls discussion or something. Quit exaggerating the quality of OoT's combat - we both know it's just a game of hit shield > get shield hit > attack enemy for 90% of the game's enemies besides the ones that shoot projectiles at you.

"It's the highest rated game ever. It topped more lists than any other game."

I know I've said this countless times but I'll say it again. Who fucking cares? People have nostalgic hard ons for it. Always have, always will. People have gone so far as to call it the greatest video game in existence, which is fucking insane on so many levels. There are so many games that did what OoT did and did it better [including actual Zelda games for that matter] and people give that title to OoT? If that's not a nostalgic bias I don't know what is. I'm sorry you and so many people like to wear your rose coloured goggles but OoT is an incredibly flawed game, and because it has flaws that aren't in later installments, it's completely illogical to hail it as the best. I say this same thing to the people that say Mario 64 is better than the Galaxy games or 3D World despite it having arguably the worst platforming in the entire series. Nostalgia - that's the only reason these games are so critically acclaimed.

Again, ALTTP has virtually no AI and the combat has no flow whatsoever, enemies don't react, they don't defend, they don't react, they don't do shit actually. There is a set pattern in every damned game out there. Even Dark Souls follows a set pattern of hitting and defending and some were complaining the combat was too defensive. It wasn't fixed until Bloodborne. The enemies in Dark Souls are just more varied and far deadlier. Block, attack, dodge...yeah well it's a fight, do you expect much more? Honestly what do you expect combat to be? Combat is waiting for an opening and striking at an appropriate time, most games do that and that's the way it should be done. Only complaint I have against OOT was that the enemies were too passive and died too quickly. It was still a very decent system by 1998 standards. Its combat certainly wasn't worst than its contemporaries.

Yes the AI was great by the standards of 98. I'm asking you for the 10th time, what 3D hack-n-slash game had a better combat system? I even told you 2D games don't count yet all you did for hours was bring back a single game over and over again. A 2D one at that. The combat isn't even comparable to a 3D game so much their technology is far apart. Go ahead name the 3D adventure games released before OOT with better combat systems. Good luck with that, that list will be tiny.

What the hell are you on about? It's been sitting on 97 score for over a decade. It was the highest rated game at the time of its RELEASE. It has nothing to do with nostalgia. I don't even think it's the best game ever. It's not even in my top 10 but there definitely is an argument for it being the greatest game ever considering it's REGARDED as the best game ever.

Every single game out there is flawed. Not a single game is perfect. It's all about how badly the flaws affect the gameplay and how much they hinder your enjoyment of it. OOT's combat wasn't a strength but it certainly wasn't a flaw when it was released. Not many games did a better job than it. Contrary to most games there isn't a single major flaw that absolutely drags the game down. Yes, there are some rough mechanics, there are some things that aren't greatly executed but the whole package was ultimately a technical achievement. ALTTP has significantly worst combat than Minish Cap and subsequent 2D Zelda games, how often do you see people criticizing its combat system? Not often because honestly, it wasn't bad at all for its time. Just like OOT's combat system wasn't bad by any stretch of the imagination in 1998. Did any of these games had outstanding enemy encounters? No, not really. They were still competent enough and as good if not better than their contemporaries.

@Juub1990:

"Again, ALTTP has virtually no AI and the combat has no flow whatsoever, enemies don't react, they don't defend, they don't react, they don't do shit actually" They don't react in OoT either. Only Dark Link. I fail to see what you're point is - because the same logic can be applied to OoT as well, because the only noticeable difference between the AI in both games is that the enemies in OoT have a pattern. An incredibly predictable pattern that you can exploit without the enemies changing up their strategies, mind you.

"Block, attack, dodge...yeah well it's a fight, do you expect much more?" Yes. I expect enemies to be an actual threat to me, and I expect combat to require more out of me than simply waiting for them to bonk my shield so I can attack them. Seriously, as long as you have z targeting with your shield up, enemies will NEVER be a threat to you. ALTTP's AI is *unpredictable*, sometimes that makes enemies dumber and causes them to run into attacks, but it can also do the exact opposite which forces you to throw away your expectations and react to what an enemy does in the moment. In OoT, the pattern is so predictable that enemies can't hurt you. It's so baffling to me that you can't comprehend this simple fact, but I'll continue repeating myself regardless.

"What the hell are you on about? It's been sitting on 97 score for over a decade. It was the highest rated game at the time of its RELEASE. It has nothing to do with nostalgia. I don't even think it's the best game ever. It's not even in my top 10 but there definitely is an argument for it being the greatest game ever considering it's REGARDED as the best game ever."

Again - who gives a shit? It has everything to do with nostalgia - because better games have come and gone since OoT came out and there's literally no getting around that. Twilight Princess did everything Ocarina of Time did and better, yet you don't see people hailing it as the best game of all time. Why is that? Nostalgia - plain and simple.

And that goes back to what I said previously. Why are you even bringing up the Minish Cap? We're not comparing ALTTP to TMC, we're comparing ALTTP with OoT. Every single time you mention TMC from now on, I'm gonna bring up Wind Waker and Twilight Princess, which completely improve on the combat of OoT in every sense imaginable.

And you know what? The combat isn't even the most important part of a Zelda game so I don't know why we're putting so much time in analyzing it. As I said before, Zelda is an adventure game - and OoT doesn't require you to explore to move through the game. ALTTP does. ALTTP has bosses that don't follow a set pattern of > use item at right moment > attack. The flow of the battle is decided by you and you alone, because the bosses are always vulnerable - but so are you. In nearly every aspect of both games, ALTTP does it better - besides maybe combat and puzzles, and then it's completely debatable anyways. The fact remains that OoT set standards that shattered the core spirit of the Zelda series and it went from an adventure to an uber-linear, guided tour. That's something that simply can't be disputed.

Also, I have a question for you. You've seen Egoraptor's sequelitis video right? If not, go watch it - because he explains it better than me, and you'll probably see things very differently after you're finished with it.

I understand that but what happens in ALTTP isn't even combat to me. It's the equivalent of Pac-Man. Have you ever done a duel in ALTTP? No because enemies can't actual engage you in a proper fight and duel you. Yes OOT might be easier, yes the enemies are more predictable because they have a better AI but in the end they do actually fight. They defend, they attack, they dodge. That's a fight. What happens in ALTTP is something of a relic of a bygone age. Anyway, forget about the combat, that doesn't even matter. Also, I still want you to name a 3D adventure game released in 1998 or before with a better combat system.

No, TP is the shittiest 3D Zelda game and the only thing it did better is combat. Your point doesn't even make sense anyway, by your logic we should simply go back and lower the score of OOT because other games have improved upon. Games are rated when they are released and their merits are analyzed based upon what they bring to the market. In that regard OOT brought a lot more to the table than any other Zelda game save the original one. You're talking about OOT as if it was released today when it was released nearly 2 decades ago.

We've been through the exploration part already. Basically the reason OOT doesn't require you to explore is because you have Navi to advise you. Remove her from the game and what happens? Well, it becomes as much about exploration as ALTTP. As I told you before, I never bothered with Navi, same goes for many people. Even when she recommended to go to X or Y place I decided to go some other places and discovered stuff on my own. It took me about 4 playhtroughs to discover everything in the game. Hell probably more than that as I was discovering new things pretty recently.

I also disagree that it went from an adventure to a guided tour. I explored the world in WW(even though I hated that game), same goes for TP, Minish Cap, the Oracle series and all the games post ALTTP. It is however true that in almost all Zelda released after ALTTP, you have some thing or someone guiding you on what to do next. It's up to you to decide to do as recommended or venture off on your own. Makes virtually no difference to me. You're still rewarded for taking initiatives and going off the beaten path. If you finish OOT by simply going straight to the objective, you'll miss half the stuff the game has to offer.

Not sure why you hipsters think nostalga is a bad thing? Apparently relieving good old times is a bad thing.

nintendo is overrated as hell now they're the definition of nostalgia

The oldness of this thread is bordering on nostalgia. Please don't necro old threads.

As every 3D game it aged badly. But when it came out it was the shit just like Mario 64. Double analog stick just made things better for 3d games

Ive finally started playing OoT 3DS and I'm having quite a hard time getting into it. I dunno what it is.

So far for me it has a long way to go to compete with LttP/LBW and Twilight Princess. I'm going to try to stick through it and finish it.

@undefined: ocarina is still one of the best Zelda games to date (and one of the best action adventure games ever), so no not even close. Only people who didn't play it back then would think it's overrated.

Easy to call something overrated. 18 years of hindsight. It doesn't stand the test of time imo, with which I mean it isn't as good as it used to be, but at the time it was one hell of a game. There was no game that did what it did, let alone did it better. I've never heard of someone who was alive back then who expected better of that game. Nostalgia is both a positive and negative influence. For me there was no nostalgia. It was my first Zelda title.

This thread is over several months old. Why it is not locked by now?

Whoops, yeah, sorry guys. Locked.