23 Minutes in Hell by Bill Wiese Thoughts.

If you don't know what 23 minutes in hell is it's a testomony of a man named Bill Wiese's journey to hell. I personally believe this man because I have seen demons and they were pretty close to what he describes in his book. I know some of you will say he was on drugs he was taking acid after reading revolations so on and so forth. The demons I saw were not exactly the same as what he saw but all demons look different. The way he described them talking to one another WAS exactly how they sounded to me. Hell is a literal burning lake of fire with prison cells and pits where demons torment you. All this can be proved in his book where he gives direct scriptures in the Bible. If you don't believe him or me pick up the bible and read and you will find out for yourself.

During states of dreaming or altered perception one's visual experiences are often drawn from past experiences and subconscious thoughts. We all know of demons, we all know of hell, it's pretty predictable that during a near-death hallucination one would experience visions of demons and hell as portrayed in popular culture. It's also quite predictable that if an individual has a subconscious fear of or preoccupation with hell that they would experience a hallucination having to do with hell. I'd be far more convinced of the existence of hell if this person had seen someplace totally unrelated to popular descriptions of hell, even more convinced if he described a place that's completely surreal and cannot draw on any known human experience. Still, it's all just personal experience. If I say I saw a pink elephant in the street today no one would have a reason to believe me, and if I said I saw a grey elephant there's not much more of a reason to believe me.

meh, eternal torment or eternal conversations with religious people.

seems about the same difference to me.

meh, eternal torment or eternal conversations with religious people.

seems about the same difference to me.

Riverwolf007

yeah but you have to remember, a large amount of religous people will be in hell.

Hell, Michigan is a real place.

^ :P

Well you should watch the Terminator movie, so you will know what people's reasponse will be. In all seriousness I think I rather dwell in reality than think about something like this, even if so.. It is like.. what am I supposed to do? Though really I doubt his story, he is a liar, I should know I had cousins who claimed they could see demons. These people have mental problems honestly.

sounds legit, just like aliens making the pyramids and abducting random people out in the middle of Nowhere, Kansas.

I have seen demonsMAG_19

The Reapers are coming! I SAW them! They wiped out the protheans and they are on their way, just like in the vision I had!

The Reapers are coming! I SAW them! They wiped out the protheans and they are on their way, just like in the vision I had!

Mordred19

Ah yes "reapers"

We have dismissed that claim

If you don't know what 23 minutes in hell is it's a testomony of a man named Bill Wiese's journey to hell. I personally believe this man because I have seen demons and they were pretty close to what he describes in his book. I know some of you will say he was on drugs he was taking acid after reading revolations so on and so forth. The demons I saw were not exactly the same as what he saw but all demons look different. The way he described them talking to one another WAS exactly how they sounded to me. Hell is a literal burning lake of fire with prison cells and pits where demons torment you. All this can be proved in his book where he gives direct scriptures in the Bible. If you don't believe him or me pick up the bible and read and you will find out for yourself.

MAG_19

I've also heard that some drug traffickers have Satanic priests come in and cursetheir drugs so that the drugs make things miserable for the users (and keep them hooked so the dealers make more money). Perhaps its no coincidence that, according to the Vatican, Mexico hasmore reported cases of exorcism and demonic possession than any other country.

I also heard a story about Archbishop Fulton Sheen that's kinda eery. One day Archbishop Sheen was on a plane and the hostess asked him if he wanted to eat his meal, Sheen told her no because it was Lent and he was fasting. The lady next to Sheen also declined the meal so he asked her if she too was fasting for Lent, she replied (seriously, not sarcastically) that she was a Satanist witch and was faster for an increase in abortions (she explained that when Satanists fast for more abortions they become like blood sacrifices to the demons). Scary stuff.

The Reapers are coming! I SAW them! They wiped out the protheans and they are on their way, just like in the vision I had!

Mordred19

[QUOTE="MAG_19"]

If you don't know what 23 minutes in hell is it's a testomony of a man named Bill Wiese's journey to hell. I personally believe this man because I have seen demons and they were pretty close to what he describes in his book. I know some of you will say he was on drugs he was taking acid after reading revolations so on and so forth. The demons I saw were not exactly the same as what he saw but all demons look different. The way he described them talking to one another WAS exactly how they sounded to me. Hell is a literal burning lake of fire with prison cells and pits where demons torment you. All this can be proved in his book where he gives direct scriptures in the Bible. If you don't believe him or me pick up the bible and read and you will find out for yourself.

whipassmt

I've also heard that some drug traffickers have Satanic priests come in and cursetheir drugs so that the drugs make things miserable for the users (and keep them hooked so the dealers make more money). Perhaps its no coincidence that, according to the Vatican, Mexico hasmore reported cases of exorcism and demonic possession than any other country.

I also heard a story about Archbishop Fulton Sheen that's kinda eery. One day Archbishop Sheen was on a plane and the hostess asked him if he wanted to eat his meal, Sheen told her no because it was Lent and he was fasting. The lady next to Sheen also declined the meal so he asked her if she too was fasting for Lent, she replied (seriously, not sarcastically) that she was a Satanist witch and was faster for an increase in abortions (she explained that when Satanists fast for more abortions they become like blood sacrifices to the demons). Scary stuff.

I mean, seriously, do you really think it's a coincidence that the area with the largest amount of reports of demons also has one of the largest populations of people who believe in demons in the first place? How come there aren't more reports of possessions among Protestants? Hmmmm...could it be that Protestants don't really believe in modern possessions for the most part?

During states of dreaming or altered perception one's visual experiences are often drawn from past experiences and subconscious thoughts. We all know of demons, we all know of hell, it's pretty predictable that during a near-death hallucination one would experience visions of demons and hell as portrayed in popular culture. It's also quite predictable that if an individual has a subconscious fear of or preoccupation with hell that they would experience a hallucination having to do with hell. I'd be far more convinced of the existence of hell if this person had seen someplace totally unrelated to popular descriptions of hell, even more convinced if he described a place that's completely surreal and cannot draw on any known human experience. Still, it's all just personal experience. If I say I saw a pink elephant in the street today no one would have a reason to believe me, and if I said I saw a grey elephant there's not much more of a reason to believe me.

theone86

Pretty much this.

You will hear stuff like this from all sorts of people that had near death experiences and whatnot. A Christian will say he seen Jesus or went to hell, a muslim will say he seen Allah and so on. And they believe it with all their heart.

I'm guessing this was a near death experience. The most logical and common explanation is that when you die your brain releases a large amount of Dimethyltryptamine. A chemical that is also released in sleep so you can dream. The crystallized form of DMT can cause some pretty crazy hallucinations and crap, I'm guessing the natural proportions emitted when you die or nearly die can have the same effect.

Its also known as the Spirit Molecule from what I hear.

[QUOTE="theone86"]

During states of dreaming or altered perception one's visual experiences are often drawn from past experiences and subconscious thoughts. We all know of demons, we all know of hell, it's pretty predictable that during a near-death hallucination one would experience visions of demons and hell as portrayed in popular culture. It's also quite predictable that if an individual has a subconscious fear of or preoccupation with hell that they would experience a hallucination having to do with hell. I'd be far more convinced of the existence of hell if this person had seen someplace totally unrelated to popular descriptions of hell, even more convinced if he described a place that's completely surreal and cannot draw on any known human experience. Still, it's all just personal experience. If I say I saw a pink elephant in the street today no one would have a reason to believe me, and if I said I saw a grey elephant there's not much more of a reason to believe me.

Pikdum

I find the first part most interesting:

"Many NDE-accounts seem to include elements which, according to several theorists, can only be explained by an out-of-body consciousness. For example, Michael Sabom states that one of his contacts accurately described a surgical instrument she had not seen previously, as well as a conversation that occurred while she was under general anesthesia.[72] In another account, from a prospective Dutch NDE study,[16] a nurse removed the dentures of an unconscious heart attack victim, and was identified after his recovery as the one who removed them. This surprised him, as that patient had been in a deep coma and undergoing cardio-pulmonary resuscitation at the time."

Also, it isn't just religious people who come back telling stories of heaven, hell or Jesus.

"Many individuals who experience an NDE see it as a verification of the existence of an afterlife.[73] This includes those with agnostic/atheist inclinations before the experience. There are examples of ex-atheists, such as the Reverend Howard Storm,[74] adopting a more spiritual viewpoint after their NDEs. Storm's NDE may also be characterized as a distressing near-death experience.[75]"

And to rule out the DMT theory:

"A recent study by Dr. Sam Parnia, shows that such patients are "effectively dead", with their brains shut down and no thoughts or feelings possible for the complex brain activity required for dreaming or hallucinating; additionally, to rule out the possibility that near-death experiences resulted from hallucinations after the brain had collapsed through lack of oxygen, Parnia rigorously monitored the concentrations of the vital gas in the patients' blood, and found that none of those who underwent the experiences had low levels of oxygen. He was also able to rule out claims that unusual combinations of drugs were to blame because the resuscitation procedure was the same in every case, regardless of whether they had a near-death experience or not"

PS2_ROCKS

http://www.skepdic.com/nde.html

"Characteristic of Moody's work is the glaring omission of cases that don't fit his hypothesis."

"What little research there has been in this field indicates that the experiences Moody lists as typical of the NDE may be due to brain states triggered by cardiac arrest and anesthesia (Blackmore 1993). Furthermore, many people who have not been near death have had experiences that seem identical to NDEs, e.g.,fighter pilots experiencing rapid acceleration. Other mimicking experiences may be the result of psychosis (due to severe neurochemical imbalance) or drug usage, such as hashish, LSD, orDMT."

"Similar experiences can be induced through electrical stimulation of the temporal lobe (and hence of the hippocampus) during neurosurgery for epilepsy, with high carbon dioxide levels (hypercarbia), and in decreased cerebral perfusion resulting in local cerebral hypoxia as in rapid acceleration during training of fighter pilots, or as in hyperventilation followed by Valsalva manoeuvre. Ketamine-induced experiences resulting from blockage of the NMDA receptor, and the role of endorphin, serotonin, and enkephalin have also been mentioned, as have near-death-like experiences after the use of LSD, psilocarpine, and mescaline. These induced experiences can consist of unconsciousness, out-of-body experiences, and perception of light or flashes of recollection from the past."

"We can't assume that those who report NDEshadan NDE. Nor can we be sure thatonlythose who report having had an NDE actually had one. Two of the participants in the Dutch study first reported having an NDEtwo years aftertheir close calls with death. It is possible they constructedfalse memories. Stories of the alleged typical NDE have been reported widely in the media. Experiencesafterthe NDE might be used to construct an NDE after-the-fact. It is possible that others had NDEs but don't remember them due either to brain damage, to different abilities in short term memory, or to the timing of their experience vis-à-vis when they regained consciousness. The only significant factor between the NDEers and non-NDEers in the Dutch study, according to van Lommel and his colleagues, was age: those who had NDEs tended to be younger. This is partly due to the fact that older cardiac arrest patients are more likely to die than younger ones, but it may also be partly due the fact that younger brains are more likely to have better short term memory functions than older brains."

This is just a small tidbit of other possible explanations for NDEs. Fact is, you're jumping to conclusions. You have already assumed a conclusion because you find it preferrable, VERY unscientific., Furthermore, any time a possible alternative explanation to your conclusion is debunked you take that as evidence that your conclusion is right, wholly fallacious. Just because A is wrong does not mean B is true. You seem to have very little knowledge of the workings of the brain and brain processes, but suffice to say these instances are not sufficient evidence of an afterlife. As to if being an atheist matters, it doesn't. I had a dream where I talked to Professor X. I don't believe Professor X exists, but I know of Professor X and my unconscious mind can access that information and weave it into a dream story.

Ohh FFS people like you need locked up with the alien abducteesEmpCom

Ohh FFS people like you need locked up with the alien abducteesEmpCom

let's see some evidence of conciousness (after death) when the brain has been utterly destroyed.

@theone86 And if we continue that first quote: "These recollections, however, consist of fragmented and random memories unlike the panoramic life-review that can occur in NDE. Further, transformational processes with changing life-insight and disappearance of fear of death are rarely reported after induced experiences. Thus, induced experiences are not identical to NDE.." The point I want to make is that like a lot of things, no one fully understands NDEs. It's not one of those things you can say with absolute certainty occurs because of reason X. Too many factors, too much contradicting evidence. PS2_ROCKS

You're still doing exactly what I said you were doing, taking one bit of uncertainty of the counter-argument as proof of an unsubstantiated conclusion. You have not by any stretch of the imagination proven that NDEs are proof of the afterlife. The burden of proof is on you, yet all you have is conjecture.

[QUOTE="EmpCom"]Ohh FFS people like you need locked up with the alien abducteesLost-Memory

Yes, not believing far-fetched and completely unsubstantiated claims is being a sheep. Ignorance is bliss, and you seem like a pretty happy guy.

[QUOTE="EmpCom"]Ohh FFS people like you need locked up with the alien abducteessonofsmeagle

[QUOTE="sonofsmeagle"][QUOTE="EmpCom"]Ohh FFS people like you need locked up with the alien abducteespygmahia5

Be careful what you wish for.

Atheists are wimps. You got to go nihilist for the big cahones. None of this non-believer lite crap. There is no meaning to anything.

LOL i read that book his theology is sooooo messed up, satan doesn"t controll hell according to christian theology thats his final destination.

The whole idea that satan controlls hell was born out of the belief that Hades controlls the underworld tortuting people and they applied it to the devil.

SO either he was lying

It was a really really bad dream

Either way demons and satan do not control hell

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

[QUOTE="MAG_19"]

If you don't know what 23 minutes in hell is it's a testomony of a man named Bill Wiese's journey to hell. I personally believe this man because I have seen demons and they were pretty close to what he describes in his book. I know some of you will say he was on drugs he was taking acid after reading revolations so on and so forth. The demons I saw were not exactly the same as what he saw but all demons look different. The way he described them talking to one another WAS exactly how they sounded to me. Hell is a literal burning lake of fire with prison cells and pits where demons torment you. All this can be proved in his book where he gives direct scriptures in the Bible. If you don't believe him or me pick up the bible and read and you will find out for yourself.

theone86

I've also heard that some drug traffickers have Satanic priests come in and cursetheir drugs so that the drugs make things miserable for the users (and keep them hooked so the dealers make more money). Perhaps its no coincidence that, according to the Vatican, Mexico hasmore reported cases of exorcism and demonic possession than any other country.

I also heard a story about Archbishop Fulton Sheen that's kinda eery. One day Archbishop Sheen was on a plane and the hostess asked him if he wanted to eat his meal, Sheen told her no because it was Lent and he was fasting. The lady next to Sheen also declined the meal so he asked her if she too was fasting for Lent, she replied (seriously, not sarcastically) that she was a Satanist witch and was faster for an increase in abortions (she explained that when Satanists fast for more abortions they become like blood sacrifices to the demons). Scary stuff.

I mean, seriously, do you really think it's a coincidence that the area with the largest amount of reports of demons also has one of the largest populations of people who believe in demons in the first place? How come there aren't more reports of possessions among Protestants? Hmmmm...could it be that Protestants don't really believe in modern possessions for the most part?

[QUOTE="PS2_ROCKS"]@theone86 And if we continue that first quote: "These recollections, however, consist of fragmented and random memories unlike the panoramic life-review that can occur in NDE. Further, transformational processes with changing life-insight and disappearance of fear of death are rarely reported after induced experiences. Thus, induced experiences are not identical to NDE.." The point I want to make is that like a lot of things, no one fully understands NDEs. It's not one of those things you can say with absolute certainty occurs because of reason X. Too many factors, too much contradicting evidence. theone86

You're still doing exactly what I said you were doing, taking one bit of uncertainty of the counter-argument as proof of an unsubstantiated conclusion. You have not by any stretch of the imagination proven that NDEs are proof of the afterlife. The burden of proof is on you, yet all you have is conjecture.

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="PS2_ROCKS"]@theone86 And if we continue that first quote: "These recollections, however, consist of fragmented and random memories unlike the panoramic life-review that can occur in NDE. Further, transformational processes with changing life-insight and disappearance of fear of death are rarely reported after induced experiences. Thus, induced experiences are not identical to NDE.." The point I want to make is that like a lot of things, no one fully understands NDEs. It's not one of those things you can say with absolute certainty occurs because of reason X. Too many factors, too much contradicting evidence. PS2_ROCKS

You're still doing exactly what I said you were doing, taking one bit of uncertainty of the counter-argument as proof of an unsubstantiated conclusion. You have not by any stretch of the imagination proven that NDEs are proof of the afterlife. The burden of proof is on you, yet all you have is conjecture.

That's essentially your entire argument, that people who report these NDEs have had direct contact with demons, angels, or other spiritual figures that somehow gave them knowledge they could not have attained otherwise.

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="whipassmt"] I Haven't read the book. But since demons are spirits they could manipulate matter and probably take different appearances.

I've also heard that some drug traffickers have Satanic priests come in and cursetheir drugs so that the drugs make things miserable for the users (and keep them hooked so the dealers make more money). Perhaps its no coincidence that, according to the Vatican, Mexico hasmore reported cases of exorcism and demonic possession than any other country.

I also heard a story about Archbishop Fulton Sheen that's kinda eery. One day Archbishop Sheen was on a plane and the hostess asked him if he wanted to eat his meal, Sheen told her no because it was Lent and he was fasting. The lady next to Sheen also declined the meal so he asked her if she too was fasting for Lent, she replied (seriously, not sarcastically) that she was a Satanist witch and was faster for an increase in abortions (she explained that when Satanists fast for more abortions they become like blood sacrifices to the demons). Scary stuff.

whipassmt

I mean, seriously, do you really think it's a coincidence that the area with the largest amount of reports of demons also has one of the largest populations of people who believe in demons in the first place? How come there aren't more reports of possessions among Protestants? Hmmmm...could it be that Protestants don't really believe in modern possessions for the most part?

/facepalm. You're missing the point entirely. I'm not talking about Mexican Protestants, I'm talking about all Protestants. There aren't as many Protestant exorcisms reported because a belief in modern-day possessions is far less prevalent in Protestant theology than in Catholic theology. I'm also not worried about the Vatican's reporting, Protestants don't report as many possessions to Protestant authorities because they don't believe in possesions and most Protestant authorities don't keep records of reports for the same reason. My point is that if a group of people believes in something like demonic possesion then they are going to report incidents of what they believe to be demonic possesion at very high rates. This isn't proof of demonic possession, in fact it's far more supportive of the idea that these incidents are merely misattirbution at best and outright fabrication at worst.

[QUOTE="pygmahia5"][QUOTE="sonofsmeagle"] hey dont put the alien abductees in the same class as these guys there may be actual truth to the alien parttheone86

Be careful what you wish for.

My personal beliefs who really knows what the hell happens to us once we die . But I've noticed one reoccurring theme with people who have had these near death experiences is that they all see what they believe . Just to use this podcast as a reference http://www.keithcourage.com/xo/2011/11/01/the-life-and-death-of-scott-bromley He mentioned once he was dead that all he saw was blackness not in a morbid goth way but more like i've past away and this is it . raiden509

Well, there are plenty of explanations for what these people are seeing. For one, when people recall memories they can have what are referred to as false memories where the details that they don't remember are filled in through suggestion or their own imaqginations. This is a problem for eyewitness testimony, where someone is actually present and directly witnesses the events in question take place, to say nothing about a dream which is entirely contained within one's own unconscious experiences. Even when psychiatrict professionals use dreams in therapy they ask patients to write dreams down immediately after they have them, when these people have these experiences it's often long afterwards that they give their accounts.

So they could be filling in these dreams based on suggestion or imagination (as in the case of the person who described the surgery tool they had never seen before). This could be combined with physiological factors such as drugs or distressed physiological states. Getting back to what I was saying to whipass, there is such a thing as a culture-bound syndrome. Essentially, within a certain culture an affliction, such as demonic possession, is believed to exist. However, many of the symptoms of these diseases are fairly common. In Latin America symptoms of the disease called Susto include insomnia, irritability, phobias, and an increase in sweating and heart rate. In addition, if one starts to believe that one or more of these symptoms are occuring because of Susto, or any other cultural disease, the disease can become psychosomatic. Susto victims will even die of "voodoo death," which legitimate physicians attribute to extreme anxiety over the perceived malady that causes deadly physical conditions such as increased blood pressure. Now obviously people in every culture experience the symptoms of Susto, but only people in Latin America are afflicted with Susto. The point is that these "diseases" are culturally constituted, and the cultural belief in their existence is a large part of what causes them to occur. Hence why reported possessions are far higher among groups that actually believe in possession.

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="pygmahia5"] ancient aliens. i really hope its true! pygmahia5

Be careful what you wish for.

I dunno, man, the actual civilians never see much of a change in their day to day routine. The only thing that changes for them is they get fed elaborate cover stories for events that somehow slip past the grid. The only time it actually does get more exciting for a normal person is when they get a snake stuck in their head, something that doesn't seem all that appealing to me.

[QUOTE="PS2_ROCKS"][QUOTE="theone86"]

You're still doing exactly what I said you were doing, taking one bit of uncertainty of the counter-argument as proof of an unsubstantiated conclusion. You have not by any stretch of the imagination proven that NDEs are proof of the afterlife. The burden of proof is on you, yet all you have is conjecture.

theone86

That's essentially your entire argument, that people who report these NDEs have had direct contact with demons, angels, or other spiritual figures that somehow gave them knowledge they could not have attained otherwise.

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="PS2_ROCKS"] Where did I say an NDE is proof of afterlife? PS2_ROCKS

That's essentially your entire argument, that people who report these NDEs have had direct contact with demons, angels, or other spiritual figures that somehow gave them knowledge they could not have attained otherwise.

No it doesn't. It means that when proposing something completely unsubstantiated, like an afterlife or demonic possesion, proof must be offered before it can be accepted as true. There are plenty of plausible reasons for NDEs that don't resort to the supernatural, just because they can't explain every single detail does not make the explanation of encounters with demons more plausible.