A Logical Proof for the Christian Gods Imperfection

The genesis story is not meant to be taken literally....so no proof.LJS9502_basic

finally. someone who knows what he's talking about. this man speaks the truth,

You have freewill. You can choose God or Satan, correct?

Red pill, blue pill.

The cookiejar is just a "go with the flow" kinda thing. You don't know what the kid will do. All you know is what you will do if the cookies are messed with. Am I right?. ;)

NostraSamus

No. I specifically stated that you do know for certain that the kid will eat out of it if it is placed within his reach. Just like God knew for certain that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit if it was placed within their reach.

Remember, if you know all including the future, then there's never a reason to give anything or anyone a chance since the probablity that they will behave differently than what you foresee is zero. This is why the "God is testing us/them" excuse that Christians use to explain why some people seem born to go to hell, or why God didn't banish the devil from Eden/never create the devil/never create the two fruit trees is so flawed: it works on the idea that God is limited to probablities when determining the future like people. God would only bother to test us if he couldn't know for certain what we would do. Since he does know for certain (otherwise he wouldn't be omniscient) then there's no point in testing.

[QUOTE="Decessus"][QUOTE="verparanoidpers"][QUOTE="Decessus"]

P1: God created the Garden of Eden and placed the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden.

P2: God created Adam and Eve with free will and commanded them not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

P3: Adam and Eve did eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil

P4: God was mistaken in his belief that Adam and Eve would heed his command

C: God is not perfect because God makes mistakes.

Discuss.

verparanoidpers

It's implied based on the knowledge that God is a benevolent creator. If God put the tree in the garden believing that Adam and Eve would disobey his command to not eat from it, then God could certainly not be called good.

of cource, the creation story is allegorical, 7 days isn't really 7 24 hour days

So you're suggesting that God purposefully put the tree in the garden, even though he knew that Adam and Eve would eat from it when they were not supposed to because it was part of a larger plan?

[QUOTE="verparanoidpers"][QUOTE="Decessus"][QUOTE="verparanoidpers"][QUOTE="Decessus"]

P1: God created the Garden of Eden and placed the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden.

P2: God created Adam and Eve with free will and commanded them not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

P3: Adam and Eve did eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil

P4: God was mistaken in his belief that Adam and Eve would heed his command

C: God is not perfect because God makes mistakes.

Discuss.

Decessus

It's implied based on the knowledge that God is a benevolent creator. If God put the tree in the garden believing that Adam and Eve would disobey his command to not eat from it, then God could certainly not be called good.

of cource, the creation story is allegorical, 7 days isn't really 7 24 hour days

So you're suggesting that God purposefully put the tree in the garden, even though he knew that Adam and Eve would eat from it when they were not supposed to because it was part of a larger plan?

[QUOTE="Decessus"]

P1: God created the Garden of Eden and placed the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden.

P2: God created Adam and Eve with free will and commanded them not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

P3: Adam and Eve did eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil

P4: God was mistaken in his belief that Adam and Eve would heed his command

C: God is not perfect because God makes mistakes.

Discuss.

syorks1

I don't think He ever believed that they would follow His command. He still gave them a choice to go against Him thopugh which makes the Christian God so amazing.

If God created Adam and Even, and Adam and Eve possess free will, why would God not believe they would follow his command?

[QUOTE="Decessus"]

P1: God created the Garden of Eden and placed the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden.

P2: God created Adam and Eve with free will and commanded them not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

P3: Adam and Eve did eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil

P4: God was mistaken in his belief that Adam and Eve would heed his command

C: God is not perfect because God makes mistakes.

Discuss.

whipassmt

If God had not put the tree in the garden, there would be no need for salvation. So what you're implying it seems is that God made a mistake when he put the tree in the garden.

Ahh, the clamor of us humans. Trying to breakdown a superior entityand judge Him as you would judge your fellow man. It's almost insulting to Him, really. You don't see this kinda discussion with us and a dog. "Why did he defecate on my brand new carpet?" It's a dog, no sense having a panel about it. It kinda works up too.

I just use what I believe He has placed in front of me and do what I want to do. Namely, worship Him and abide by the will as I and others before me have interpreted it...

Eman5805

If God did in fact create man, then he created man with the ability to reason. If God gave us this ability, then surely he must want us to use it.

The story is literal in that before it, time did not exist. Everything just happened. Then Adam and Eve came along, ventured too far and created good and evil.NostraSamus

That's the problem. When you insist there be a literal meaning you dismiss the spiritual meaning but once the spiritual meaning is understood, it renders the literal meaning irrelevant. Spirit is greater than matter. That's why 'Nothing Matters".

[QUOTE="syorks1"][QUOTE="Decessus"]

P1: God created the Garden of Eden and placed the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden.

P2: God created Adam and Eve with free will and commanded them not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

P3: Adam and Eve did eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil

P4: God was mistaken in his belief that Adam and Eve would heed his command

C: God is not perfect because God makes mistakes.

Discuss.

Decessus

I don't think He ever believed that they would follow His command. He still gave them a choice to go against Him thopugh which makes the Christian God so amazing.

If God created Adam and Even, and Adam and Eve possess free will, why would God not believe they would follow his command?

You forgot

P5: Adam and Eve is a fictional parable. The story is not literal but symbolic. Try to see the truth behind the truth.

To believe the story is literal is a mistake in itself.

nilemonitor

That may be true, but 33% of Americans believe the Bible should be taken literally.

The story is literal in that before it, time did not exist. Everything just happened. Then Adam and Eve came along, ventured too far and created good and evil.NostraSamus

Good and evil already existed before Adam and Eve came along. That's why it's called the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

[QUOTE="NostraSamus"]The story is literal in that before it, time did not exist. Everything just happened. Then Adam and Eve came along, ventured too far and created good and evil.Decessus

Good and evil already existed before Adam and Eve came along. That's why it's called the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

That's your interpretation of it, not a fact or proof.

[QUOTE="Decessus"]

So you're suggesting that God purposefully put the tree in the garden, even though he knew that Adam and Eve would eat from it when they were not supposed to because it was part of a larger plan?

verparanoidpers

Do you know what that plan is?

[QUOTE="verparanoidpers"][QUOTE="Decessus"]

So you're suggesting that God purposefully put the tree in the garden, even though he knew that Adam and Eve would eat from it when they were not supposed to because it was part of a larger plan?

Decessus

Do you know what that plan is?

That logic is flawed on the basis of free will.sonicare

Free will is what makes the argument possible. When God placed the tree in the garden and commanded Adam not to eat from it, he could not have known whether or not Adam would follow his command. He could only believe that he would, but when Adam and Eve did eat from the tree, it made that belief unjustified. God made a mistake.

[QUOTE="sonicare"]That logic is flawed on the basis of free will.Decessus

Free will is what makes the argument possible. When God placed the tree in the garden and commanded Adam not to eat from it, he could not have known whether or not Adam would follow his command. He could only believe that he would, but when Adam and Eve did eat from the tree, it made that belief unjustified. God made a mistake.

[QUOTE="Ezgam3r"]You made the assumption that God believed that Adam and Eve would heed his command and not disobey. Decessus

I guess it's fair enough to call that an assumption. However, given all the other information I think it's a fair assumption to make. Afterall, God is said to be benevolent and would you really consider it benevolent to place the tree in the garden believing that they would disobey you and then punish them when they do?

If God created Adam and Even, and Adam and Eve possess free will, why would God not believe they would follow his command?

Decessus

[QUOTE="nbtrap1212"][QUOTE="Decessus"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="gameguy6700"]

No, a valid syllogism just has to flow logically. Whether or not its correct has nothing to do with its validity. To drive this home:

If A then B
A

Therefore B

Is a valid syllogism. Even though there is no information contained in it, the mere structure ensures its validity.

Decessus

You didn't read my entire post.....I said If...and IF is the operative word. It's not a logical conclusion if the factors aren't correct. Hence the word if.

In your initial example the word IF is missing.

It doesn't matter if the premises are correct or not in order for a logical argument to be valid. An argument is logically valid when the premises, if true, necessarily entail the conclusion. Whether or not the premises are actually true makes no difference in terms of its validity.

Actually, it can be proved that if one (or more) of the premises is false, one can arrive at any false or true conclusion using valid logic. You're wrong (and the "logic" to which you refer is not there - again, this is nowhere near a formal argument).

I know that, but the argument with LJ was about whether or not a logically valid argument has to have true premises, and the answer is no it doesn't.

Yes you're right there, although your argument is really not formal enough to be arguing about formal logic.

Or, God is a sadist and gets pleasure for seeing us suffer--seeing that will happen, and letting it happen anyway.CptJSparrow

How did the devil get into the Garden of Eden anyway?

[QUOTE="CptJSparrow"]Or, God is a sadist and gets pleasure for seeing us suffer--seeing that will happen, and letting it happen anyway.thirstychainsaw

How did the devil get into the Garden of Eden anyway?

Apparantly he's not bound to hell until after the apocolypse. A better question is how he got back into heaven to make the bet with God about Job. Or even better, why God even tolerated his presence.

[QUOTE="Decessus"][QUOTE="verparanoidpers"][QUOTE="Decessus"]

So you're suggesting that God purposefully put the tree in the garden, even though he knew that Adam and Eve would eat from it when they were not supposed to because it was part of a larger plan?

verparanoidpers

Do you know what that plan is?

If God had not put the tree in the garden, then the resurrection of Jesus Christ never would have been necessary.

[QUOTE="Decessus"]

[QUOTE="Ezgam3r"]You made the assumption that God believed that Adam and Eve would heed his command and not disobey. Ezgam3r

I guess it's fair enough to call that an assumption. However, given all the other information I think it's a fair assumption to make. Afterall, God is said to be benevolent and would you really consider it benevolent to place the tree in the garden believing that they would disobey you and then punish them when they do?

In what sense is it good to punish somebody for something you knowingly could have prevented?

[QUOTE="Decessus"]

If God created Adam and Even, and Adam and Eve possess free will, why would God not believe they would follow his command?

Ezgam3r

And if he believed that they would not follow his command, then he would not have put the tree in the garden. Or at the very least he would not have punished them since he knowingly put the tree there believing they would disobey him.

Yes you're right there, although your argument is really not formal enough to be arguing about formal logic.

nbtrap1212

I guess I don't understand what you mean when you say it isn't formal enough. What does a formal argument look like?

P1: God created the Garden of Eden and placed the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden.

P2: God created Adam and Eve with free will and commanded them not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

P3: Adam and Eve did eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil

P4: God was mistaken in his belief that Adam and Eve would heed his command

C: God is not perfect because God makes mistakes.

Discuss.

Decessus

P4 is flawed and it's the backbone of your point. You can't know what God was "believing" or why things were arranged. They were disobedient and expelled. Not very complex.

The genesis story is not meant to be taken literally....so no proof.LJS9502_basic

who gets to decide whats to be taken literally and what isn't?

You are telling me that god is the bad guy because he gave us a chance of freedom, and we screwed EVERYTHING UP.

If god had just let us be good and happy forever, it would have been meaningless FOR HIM. Why do we exist on this earth (in accordance to christian faith)? its for god's entertainment.

I can program my computer to say to me whenever i log on "I love you". but its meaningless.
Similarly, god says, you can live with me forever, happily. Or you can be greedy and both die and cause the human race years of suffering.

[QUOTE="Ezgam3r"][QUOTE="Decessus"]

If God created Adam and Even, and Adam and Eve possess free will, why would God not believe they would follow his command?

Decessus

And if he believed that they would not follow his command, then he would not have put the tree in the garden. Or at the very least he would not have punished them since he knowingly put the tree there believing they would disobey him.

Your only leaving two assumptions. Either God believes they will obey he/she/its command or disobey. What if God didn't believe either and wanted to see what they'll do if they had a choice because without the tree, there wouldn't be a choice to make.

Also, to the bolded: How do you know this? You read God's "mind"?

P1: God created the Garden of Eden and placed the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden.

P2: God created Adam and Eve with free will and commanded them not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

P3: Adam and Eve did eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil

P4: God was mistaken in his belief that Adam and Eve would heed his command

C: God is not perfect because God makes mistakes.

Discuss.

Decessus

Your only leaving two assumptions. Either God believes they will obey he/she/its command or disobey. What if God didn't believe either and wanted to see what they'll do if they had a choice because without the tree, there wouldn't be a choice to make.

Ezgam3r

Touche. It does make sense that this could be a third option, and I didn't really consider that in my argument.

"No. I specifically stated that you do know for certain that the kid will eat out of it if it is placed within his reach. Just like God knew for certain that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit if it was placed within their reach."

Idon't care what you said. I said you don't know what the kid will do. And you don't. So even implying that you know what the kid willdo because you did somethingto "make" it happen is BS.

There is a chance you may guess at what may happen inan future event and be correct about it, but that is chance. To truly know the future without chance, you would have to absolutely control it.

Now, why would God set-up a kid witha cookie jar or Adam and Eve? He wouldn't. He would just do whatever it ishe does unaware of anything. He knows what will happen because of the stupidity (to put it simply)he see's in the things people do. Seeing traits and predictability, or evil,He knows everyone will realize their mistakes...

...and then what?

[QUOTE="verparanoidpers"][QUOTE="Decessus"][QUOTE="verparanoidpers"][QUOTE="Decessus"]

So you're suggesting that God purposefully put the tree in the garden, even though he knew that Adam and Eve would eat from it when they were not supposed to because it was part of a larger plan?

Decessus

Do you know what that plan is?

If God had not put the tree in the garden, then the resurrection of Jesus Christ never would have been necessary.