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-TheSecondSign-

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#101 -TheSecondSign-
Member since 2007 • 9303 Posts

I'm not a lovely dovey type.

I would kidnap the rich man, and then abandon him in the center of a group of people he robbed from.

Therefore, everyone wins, I get all his cash, and I leave everyone here who says its wrong forced to debate whether or not my actions are justifiable.

I win.

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Jdog30

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#102 Jdog30
Member since 2008 • 4509 Posts
thats not justified at all. the man has done almost nothing wrong. killing is in no way justified and that is completely evil
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Gnomefan

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#103 Gnomefan
Member since 2009 • 1048 Posts

I think is the rich person isn't good then he does deserve to die. Even though I would never kill some one like Bob would if he had the guts to then he should go for it since he would help people with the money.

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-Sun_Tzu-

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#104 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="tycoonmike"]If these rights are inalienable then they CANNOT BE TAKEN AWAY by any power in this universe.

tycoonmike

Again, that is notwhat inalienable rights are. The term "inalienable" is used not in the sense that it is literally impossible for certain entitlements to be taken away by any authority in the universe, but in a more rhetorical sense that is used in order to express the idea that these are rights that cannotjustly be compromised or taken away all together between two or more parties, unless one of those parties infringes on the rights of another.

Inalienable, definition: not transferable to another or capable of being repudiated.

Repudiate, definition: to reject as having no authority or binding force

Both from www.dictionary.com

In reference to my argument about how God can be considered the universe, our positions are reversed. Don't blame me for bringing it up, because you were the one that did so in the first place. You are trying to apply a wishful definition upon the word inalienable whereas I'm sticking to the textbook definition.

Beyond that, though, you are ignoring the definition of inalienable. On the web page for the word's definition, all but one of the definitions mention, in some way, how something described as inalienable as being unable to be repudiated. If you die, your right to life is repudiated. If you are enslaved, whether by a government, a culture, a religion, or an idea, your right to liberty is repudiated. If you find misery, your right to pursue happiness has been, albeit temporarily, repudiated. Because all three can be and are repudiated every single day the only thing I can conclude is that the three must not be inalienable.

You're just creating one big straw man and are really just arguing semantics. Absolutely no one who believed (believes) in the concept of inalienable rights used the term "inalienable" in the sense that these rights literally could not be infringed upon. Not Locke, not Paine, not Jefferson. Two thirds of the Declaration of Independence is literally just a list of different ways the British government infringed on the inalienable rights of the colonies. I'm not applying "a wishful definition" upon the word inalienable. I'm merely stating the context in which the word is being used. It is not used in the sense that these rights cannot be infringed upon, it is used in the sense that they ought not be infringed upon, and if they are infringed upon, those who have had their rights infringed ought to do something about it. All they are are theoretical rights that are non-negotiable when it comes to the formulation of just civil law.

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tycoonmike

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#105 tycoonmike
Member since 2005 • 6082 Posts

You're just creating one big straw man and are really just arguing semantics. Absolutely no one who believed (believes) in the concept of inalienable rights used the term "inalienable" in the sense that these rights literally could not be infringed upon. Not Locke, not Paine, not Jefferson. Two thirds of the Declaration of Independence is literally just a list of different ways the British government infringed on the inalienable rights of the colonies. I'm not applying "a wishful definition" upon the word inalienable. I'm merely stating the context in which the word is being used. It is not used in the sense that these rights cannot be infringed upon, it is used in the sense that they ought not be infringed upon, and if they are infringed upon, those who have had their rights infringed ought to do something about it. All they are are theoretical rights that are non-negotiable when it comes to the formulation of just civil law.

-Sun_Tzu-

And again, you prove me right. I may bearguing semantics, but you, and indeed the people who wrote the declaration and the constitution, are applying a definition to a word that does not fit it or the context in which its used. What you named, and what they named, are not rights. I have proven that. If you die, whether naturally or otherwise,youdo not have a right to live or else you would be saved. If youwillfully enslave yourselfto an idea you do not have a right to liberty or else you would be liberated. If youfind misery,you albeit temporarily do not have a right to pursue happiness or else you would have found happiness rather than misery.

THEORETICAL rights!!! The entire point I've been making! Humanity, in THEORY, has these rights but, in practice, fully half the world does not have these rights by any degree. How can we consider these "rights" inalienable if half the world doesn't have them? And don't say to me that those people can fight for them but don't. Look at almost all of Africa, for instance. In order to think of rights one must think of one's basic needs, food, water, shelter, etc. If the right to life is inalienable, then everyone should be able to live fruitful lives with enough food, amendities, and comfort. If the right to liberty is inalienable, then everyone should be able to live as they so choose. If the right to pursue happiness is inalienable, then we would all be able to find it. We can debate these things because our biological needs are met. We have the privilege of worrying about such things as the nature of rights, unlike the poor souls born in countrieswhere you worry every day if you'regoing to have a meal or at the very least a cup of fresh drinking water. Why are we the privileged ones who have our needs met? Is that our rights in action or is that because we have enough resources that we can worry about rights and privileges?

In either case, this is my last and final word on the subject: if these things are rights, every single person on the planet ought to have them, but the reality is that fully half the people on this planet live under authoritarian regimes or cultures, etching out a shaky existence based on the misery of inadequate food and water supplies. That, above all else, should prove these things are privileges backed up by a government willing to give them to the people they rule over: rights asa function of might.

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Delsage

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#106 Delsage
Member since 2004 • 3355 Posts
[QUOTE="MFaraz_Hayat"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]Unless this rich man directly threatened the well being of this "Bob" character, then absolutely not.-Sun_Tzu-

Why not? Any reason?

Because everyone has the right to life unless they infringe on another person's right to life.

What about abortion then? If everyone has the right to life, then what right does anyone have to kill an unborn child? What makes that justified.
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magnax1

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#107 magnax1
Member since 2007 • 4605 Posts

I dont really get how that could be justified. I mean the guy doesn't sound like a nice guy, but did nothing worth of murder. The only people who really need to be killed are serial murderers, because they are the biggest detriment to human society and represent (are) pure evil.

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necro_dragoon

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#108 necro_dragoon
Member since 2005 • 59 Posts
That's more interesting what if I were trying to reason with him. We'll in a religious free world their would be no mandates or laws because most laws today where ancient edicts of the priests of various religions. Also Sun_Tzu what you use for your second support would be a theology and wouldn't exist by this world. Has anyone seen Tripping the Rift, well it had an episode in which Chode I believe kills God well that would be wat happens.
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-Sun_Tzu-

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#109 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

You're just creating one big straw man and are really just arguing semantics. Absolutely no one who believed (believes) in the concept of inalienable rights used the term "inalienable" in the sense that these rights literally could not be infringed upon. Not Locke, not Paine, not Jefferson. Two thirds of the Declaration of Independence is literally just a list of different ways the British government infringed on the inalienable rights of the colonies. I'm not applying "a wishful definition" upon the word inalienable. I'm merely stating the context in which the word is being used. It is not used in the sense that these rights cannot be infringed upon, it is used in the sense that they ought not be infringed upon, and if they are infringed upon, those who have had their rights infringed ought to do something about it. All they are are theoretical rights that are non-negotiable when it comes to the formulation of just civil law.

tycoonmike

And again, you prove me right. I may bearguing semantics, but you, and indeed the people who wrote the declaration and the constitution, are applying a definition to a word that does not fit it or the context in which its used. What you named, and what they named, are not rights. I have proven that. If you die, whether naturally or otherwise,youdo not have a right to live or else you would be saved. If youwillfully enslave yourselfto an idea you do not have a right to liberty or else you would be liberated. If youfind misery,you albeit temporarily do not have a right to pursue happiness or else you would have found happiness rather than misery.

THEORETICAL rights!!! The entire point I've been making! Humanity, in THEORY, has these rights but, in practice, fully half the world does not have these rights by any degree. How can we consider these "rights" inalienable if half the world doesn't have them? And don't say to me that those people can fight for them but don't. Look at almost all of Africa, for instance. In order to think of rights one must think of one's basic needs, food, water, shelter, etc. If the right to life is inalienable, then everyone should be able to live fruitful lives with enough food, amendities, and comfort. If the right to liberty is inalienable, then everyone should be able to live as they so choose. If the right to pursue happiness is inalienable, then we would all be able to find it. We can debate these things because our biological needs are met. We have the privilege of worrying about such things as the nature of rights, unlike the poor souls born in countrieswhere you worry every day if you'regoing to have a meal or at the very least a cup of fresh drinking water. Why are we the privileged ones who have our needs met? Is that our rights in action or is that because we have enough resources that we can worry about rights and privileges?

In either case, this is my last and final word on the subject: if these things are rights, every single person on the planet ought to have them, but the reality is that fully half the people on this planet live under authoritarian regimes or cultures, etching out a shaky existence based on the misery of inadequate food and water supplies. That, above all else, should prove these things are privileges backed up by a government willing to give them to the people they rule over: rights asa function of might.

Okay, so then all you are claiming is that philosophers have been using a misnomer vis-a-vis inalienable rights. That's utterly pointless, and proves absolutely nothing except that you can't get passed the literal meaning of a word and are unable to figure out the context. So if I call them "moral rights" would that be better? Because moral rights are the same exact thing as inalienable rights.

And did you not read my last sentence in its entirety? I said they are theoretical rights that are non-neogtioable when it comes to the formulation of just civil law. Can civil law be just if the law infringes on life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness?

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Teenaged

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#110 Teenaged
Member since 2007 • 31764 Posts

Where's MFaraz_Hyat? :(

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CoreyNT

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#111 CoreyNT
Member since 2008 • 593 Posts
[QUOTE="MFaraz_Hayat"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]Unless this rich man directly threatened the well being of this "Bob" character, then absolutely not.-Sun_Tzu-

Why not? Any reason?

Because everyone has the right to life unless they infringe on another person's right to life.

Agh who's philosophy is that? I remembering learning about it... isn't it locke or hobbes?
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-Sun_Tzu-

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#112 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="MFaraz_Hayat"]

Why not? Any reason?

CoreyNT

Because everyone has the right to life unless they infringe on another person's right to life.

Agh who's philosophy is that? I remembering learning about it... isn't it locke or hobbes?

It would be Locke.

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monkeyd_93

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#113 monkeyd_93
Member since 2007 • 6848 Posts
uhh how does bob take over the rich guys money? and no its not justified, in my eyes someone who has killed or endangered someone elses life is an only reason to kill
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PublicNuisance

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#114 PublicNuisance
Member since 2009 • 4582 Posts

Imagine a world where religion doesnot exist and hence, all such classification for example atheist, theist etc. are non-existant. In such a world lives a poor man named Bob. He realizes that he will never achieve the status of a particular rich individual, even after hard work. Now Bob thinks that life has been unfair to him. Why should he be born in a poor family? So he decides to kill that rich man and take over his wealth. He investigates and finds out that the rich man is also cruel to poor, and has stolen a lot of money from the poor. This provides Bob with a further incentive to kill that man. Bob realizes that the man may change and help poor in the future, however the possibility of that is quite low. And Bob decides to help poor and needy, as soon as he has the wealth. He is willing to accept punishment from law, if he is ever caught. And will not blame any person who might try to kill him for similar reasons. So is this killing justified? If not, then why?

MFaraz_Hayat

No it is not. Bob should move over to a communist country. In a capatilist country wealth goes to those who know how to get it, not who deserves it. Bob should man up and go get his fortune. One could say that by killing this guy he is getting his fortune, but that would be stretching my words. You said this rich guy was cruel to the poor, but you never said he killed any poor people. Therefore even under an eye for an eye this wouldn't work.

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muller39

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#115 muller39
Member since 2008 • 14953 Posts
Unless this rich man directly threatened the well being of this "Bob" character, then absolutely not.-Sun_Tzu-
i agree im against that murder is justified in any reason if not for self defence. without the killing bob sounds like robin hood