A problem with evolution

problem for evolution theory is that of explaining the origin of consciousness. Human beings are not just physical systems; we have rich mental lives. There is more to this mentality than electrical events in the brain. For any mental state, there is a physical event (what is going on in the brain) and a mental event (what that feels like for us). The two are, at least in principle separable; there's no logical contradiction in having one without the other.

The process of natural selection selects organisms for survival based only on their behaviour, on what they do. An organism that behaves as we behave but which does not have the attendant mental states that we have will have just as much survival value as we do. Mentality is not necessary for behaviour, and nothing more than behaviour is necessary for survival, so there is no survival value to having mental states.

Evolution theory, though, can only explain the origin of traits that have survival value. For example, we have two eyes rather than one, according to evolution theory, because that makes it possible to judge distances more accurately, increasing our chances of survival. Consciousness, though, does not increase our chances of survival; we are no more likely to survive than we would be if physical events in our brain did not give rise to conscious experiences, if our decisions just happened automatically as in a computer.

Evolution theory, therefore, cannot explain the origin of consciousness.

Okay then. Doesn't really dispute the fact that allele frequency in a population changes over time, but yeah.

so there is no survival value to having mental states.

kneeha

Anyway, has it occurred to you that consciousness could be a byproduct of the intelligence of humans which is evolutionarily advantageous? Or that it is useful in that it enables humans to be social animals, which lets them work together, which also carries survival advantage? Or that consciousness enables us to learn and to find creative solutions to problems?

But what would be the purpose of said traits. And why would they form at a level of complexity such as conciousness

But what would be the purpose of said traits. And why would they form at a level of complexity such as conciousness

kneeha

To allow society to form at a level of complexity that significantly enhances survival.

But what would be the purpose of said traits. And why would they form at a level of complexity such as conciousness

kneeha

Fear is a result of stress not conciousness its basic survival

Fear is a result of stress not conciousness its basic survival

kneeha

Fear is a result of stress not conciousness its basic survival

kneeha

[QUOTE="kneeha"]

Fear is a result of stress not conciousness its basic survival

Funky_Llama

You are ascribing "non-physical" components to consciousness with no evidence. Also, evolution does not restrict itself to things that benefit survival; it allows the emergence of traits that do not hinder survival. Further sapience, which has emerged from consciousness, certainly has vast survival value. You seem to be speculating in a vacuum isolated from any evidence.xaos

But what would be the purpose of said traits. And why would they form at a level of complexity such as conciousness

With all you said, there's still waaaay more many problems with me believing in Gods.

I just don't believe in the Big Bang. It's a bit ludacris that a large explosion made human beings, that just happen to be compatible and reproduce, and that just happen to have a brain by which they can use to supply theirselves with further life. Believe me, Christianity is a crazy idea to, but it at least lets immprobable ludacris chance become a little less chancey. I like to think I have a general purpose in life.FastNorwegian

[QUOTE="xaos"]You are ascribing "non-physical" components to consciousness with no evidence. Also, evolution does not restrict itself to things that benefit survival; it allows the emergence of traits that do not hinder survival. Further sapience, which has emerged from consciousness, certainly has vast survival value. You seem to be speculating in a vacuum isolated from any evidence.kneeha

But what would be the purpose of said traits. And why would they form at a level of complexity such as conciousness

I just don't believe in the Big Bang. It's a bit ludacris that a large explosion made human beings, that just happen to be compatible and reproduce, and that just happen to have a brain by which they can use to supply theirselves with further life. Believe me, Christianity is a crazy idea to, but it at least lets immprobable ludacris chance become a little less chancey. I like to think I have a general purpose in life.FastNorwegian

[QUOTE="kneeha"]

Fear is a result of stress not conciousness its basic survival

zakkro

I just don't believe in the Big Bang. It's a bit ludacris that a large explosion made human beings, that just happen to be compatible and reproduce, and that just happen to have a brain by which they can use to supply theirselves with further life. Believe me, Christianity is a crazy idea to, but it at least lets immprobable ludacris chance become a little less chancey. I like to think I have a general purpose in life.FastNorwegian

[QUOTE="xaos"]You are ascribing "non-physical" components to consciousness with no evidence. Also, evolution does not restrict itself to things that benefit survival; it allows the emergence of traits that do not hinder survival. Further sapience, which has emerged from consciousness, certainly has vast survival value. You seem to be speculating in a vacuum isolated from any evidence.kneeha

But what would be the purpose of said traits. And why would they form at a level of complexity such as conciousness

[QUOTE="zakkro"][QUOTE="kneeha"]

Fear is a result of stress not conciousness its basic survival

kneeha

I just don't believe in the Big Bang. It's a bit ludacris that a large explosion made human beings, that just happen to be compatible and reproduce, and that just happen to have a brain by which they can use to supply theirselves with further life. Believe me, Christianity is a crazy idea to, but it at least lets immprobable ludacris chance become a little less chancey. I like to think I have a general purpose in life.FastNorwegian

Not that I want to argue, but the Big Bang did not create humans, it created the Universe. Humans came along many millions of years after the big band. We even have Dinosaur bones to prove how long things have been living on this earth. But, if you believe in god I'm sure that's hardcore evidence you'll instantly dismiss.

[QUOTE="kneeha"]

[QUOTE="xaos"]You are ascribing "non-physical" components to consciousness with no evidence. Also, evolution does not restrict itself to things that benefit survival; it allows the emergence of traits that do not hinder survival. Further sapience, which has emerged from consciousness, certainly has vast survival value. You seem to be speculating in a vacuum isolated from any evidence.-Sun_Tzu-

But what would be the purpose of said traits. And why would they form at a level of complexity such as conciousness

It's a bit ludacris that a large explosion made human beings, that just happen to be compatible and reproduceFastNorwegian

I just don't believe in the Big Bang. It's a bit ludacris that a large explosion made human beings, that just happen to be compatible and reproduce, and that just happen to have a brain by which they can use to supply theirselves with further life.FastNorwegian

I like to think I have a general purpose in life.FastNorwegian

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="kneeha"]

But what would be the purpose of said traits. And why would they form at a level of complexity such as conciousness

kneeha

I believe it would be a byproduct of out intelligence. Also, apea are considered to be inbetween animal EQ and human EQ, which could explain the evolutionary 'link' of conciousnessHellsAngel2c

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="kneeha"]

But what would be the purpose of said traits. And why would they form at a level of complexity such as conciousness

kneeha

Our ability to be conscious is because we have the ability to remember things. If you can't remember anything, you are nothing. There are many many different types of animals on this earth that do not believe in a God because they do not have the mental capacity for anything other than survival. What you're saying has no bounds in disproving the big bang theory. It's like me saying "there's a problem with god because people feel hate. How could an all loving god create such a mess" If you feel you disproved the big bang. I just disproved the existence of god!

[QUOTE="FastNorwegian"]It's a bit ludacris that a large explosion made human beings, that just happen to be compatible and reproduceFunky_Llama

[QUOTE="kneeha"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] How does the human species survive? It is not because of man's strenght or speed; it is a combination of our intelligence and our profound awareness of our surroundings (i.e. our conciousness) that allows man to develope tools that our survival is dependent on. With our profound sense of awareness we would no longer have this biological advantage that makes us one of the "fittest".

-Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="kneeha"]No also not conciousness Im refering to the more complexities in or thought processes, you are still refering to the basic levels of thought.Even invention cannot be called conciousness because it can still be performed without the extras.

kneeha

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="kneeha"]No also not conciousness Im refering to the more complexities in or thought processes, you are still refering to the basic levels of thought.Even invention cannot be called conciousness because it can still be performed without the extras.

kneeha

I just don't believe in the Big Bang. It's a bit ludacris that a large explosion made human beings, that just happen to be compatible and reproduce, and that just happen to have a brain by which they can use to supply theirselves with further life. Believe me, Christianity is a crazy idea to, but it at least lets immprobable ludacris chance become a little less chancey. I like to think I have a general purpose in life.FastNorwegian

Seems pretty strait forward to me; certain mental developments increased chances of survival, so a gradual process of them developing occured.

[QUOTE="FastNorwegian"]I just don't believe in the Big Bang. It's a bit ludacris that a large explosion made human beings, that just happen to be compatible and reproduce, and that just happen to have a brain by which they can use to supply theirselves with further life. Believe me, Christianity is a crazy idea to, but it at least lets immprobable ludacris chance become a little less chancey. I like to think I have a general purpose in life.ithilgore2006

[QUOTE="kneeha"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] How does the human species survive? It is not because of man's strenght or speed; it is a combination of our intelligence and our profound awareness of our surroundings (i.e. our conciousness) that allows man to develope tools that our survival is dependent on. With our profound sense of awareness we would no longer have this biological advantage that makes us one of the "fittest".

Mikey132

Our ability to be conscious is because we have the ability to remember things. If you can't remember anything, you are nothing. There are many many different types of animals on this earth that do not believe in a God because they do not have the mental capacity for anything other than survival. What you're saying has no bounds in disproving the big bang theory. It's like me saying "there's a problem with god because people feel hate. How could an all loving god create such a mess" If you feel you disproved the big bang. I just disproved the existence of god!

[QUOTE="ithilgore2006"][QUOTE="FastNorwegian"]I just don't believe in the Big Bang. It's a bit ludacris that a large explosion made human beings, that just happen to be compatible and reproduce, and that just happen to have a brain by which they can use to supply theirselves with further life. Believe me, Christianity is a crazy idea to, but it at least lets immprobable ludacris chance become a little less chancey. I like to think I have a general purpose in life.FastNorwegian

[QUOTE="ithilgore2006"][QUOTE="FastNorwegian"]I just don't believe in the Big Bang. It's a bit ludacris that a large explosion made human beings, that just happen to be compatible and reproduce, and that just happen to have a brain by which they can use to supply theirselves with further life. Believe me, Christianity is a crazy idea to, but it at least lets immprobable ludacris chance become a little less chancey. I like to think I have a general purpose in life.FastNorwegian

[QUOTE="FastNorwegian"][QUOTE="ithilgore2006"] The Big Bang was not a "large explosion", it was the rapid expansion of a singularity.xaos

Let me break it down in simpler terms. Why would we develop thoughts or emotions that would not help our survival rate.Or like most concious thought hinders our survival.

[QUOTE="Mikey132"]

[QUOTE="kneeha"]No also not conciousness Im refering to the more complexities in or thought processes, you are still refering to the basic levels of thought.Even invention cannot be called conciousness because it can still be performed without the extras.

kneeha

Our ability to be conscious is because we have the ability to remember things. If you can't remember anything, you are nothing. There are many many different types of animals on this earth that do not believe in a God because they do not have the mental capacity for anything other than survival. What you're saying has no bounds in disproving the big bang theory. It's like me saying "there's a problem with god because people feel hate. How could an all loving god create such a mess" If you feel you disproved the big bang. I just disproved the existence of god!

A higher awareness in our consciousness comes from many years of evolution. Humans that lived 10,000 years ago did not have the same capacity that we do today, they did not live as long either. If this consciousness was provided by a higher power, the first humans on this earth would have built cars, skyscrapers, and nukes. Our entire consciousness has evolved period!

Let me break it down in simpler terms. Why would we develop thoughts or emotions that would not help our survival rate.Or like most concious thought hinders our survival.