Abe Lincoln's racism is incredible.

  • 154 results
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4

This topic is locked from further discussion.

Avatar image for Buttmonkey9000
Buttmonkey9000

2875

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#51 Buttmonkey9000
Member since 2005 • 2875 Posts

[QUOTE="p2250"]

The Ku Klux Klan was founded by the Democrat party. Even to this very day, they have the black popluation fooled into beliving they represent their best interests. All they see blacks for is easy 'votes'.

Cruse34

No thats not right the KKK was formed to play practical jokes... I don't know how it got to where it was

Practical jokes? Physically beating and scaring newly enfranchised blacks in the south to prevent them from voting is a joke....? The Klan had an clear political motive (although that motive varies depending on which period you're looking at) - I don't think that it was ever 'formed to play practical jokes'.

Avatar image for dercoo
dercoo

12555

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#52 dercoo
Member since 2006 • 12555 Posts

Well the first comment was to get himself elected/ maintain political power and influence.

If he was spatting in public about bringing equality he would have been shot before ever entering office (or even primaries).

His priority was to maintain the union, also. The freeing of the slaves came about when the union started to win, and negotiations where not necessary anymore.

The second one seems not really bad except for a certain word, which people forget that word was the common term for blacks back then It was not nearly as racially offensive as it is now. Its comparable to calling someone black instead of africanamerican today.

Back then it was pretty ******* up.

Avatar image for Bourbons3
Bourbons3

24238

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 0

#53 Bourbons3
Member since 2003 • 24238 Posts
Everyone held views like that back then. Anyone who opposes gay rights today will be seen as some sort of dinosaur in 50-100 years. As for getting too much credit, people forget that he was actually quite unpopular when he first became President.
Avatar image for Phaze-Two
Phaze-Two

3444

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#54 Phaze-Two
Member since 2009 • 3444 Posts

What's wrong with the second quote?

Oleg_Huzwog

it just reveals his true motive for freeing the slaves.

Avatar image for deactivated-59d151f079814
deactivated-59d151f079814

47239

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#55 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

The Ku Klux Klan was founded by the Democrat party. Even to this very day, they have the black popluation fooled into beliving they represent their best interests. All they see blacks for is easy 'votes'.

p2250

This is painful to read.. The Democrat party is not the same from the 1800s or mid 1900s.. Democrats back then were the conservatives back then, Republicans were the liberals or progressives... They pretty much have flip flopped to opposite ideologies today.

Avatar image for deactivated-59d151f079814
deactivated-59d151f079814

47239

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#56 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

Everyone held views like that back then. Anyone who opposes gay rights today will be seen as some sort of dinosaur in 50-100 years. As for getting too much credit, people forget that he was actually quite unpopular when he first became President.Bourbons3

:P That was pretty obvious when before even he made his inaugral speech, several states immediately seceded.

Avatar image for ReaperV7
ReaperV7

6756

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#57 ReaperV7
Member since 2008 • 6756 Posts

Abolishing Slavery =/= equal rights between white and black races. Thats why it took like 100 years for it to be equal, thats when martin luther king showed up.

Abe was likey a racist, but he must of really hated slavery.

Avatar image for Phaze-Two
Phaze-Two

3444

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#58 Phaze-Two
Member since 2009 • 3444 Posts

[QUOTE="p2250"]

The Ku Klux Klan was founded by the Democrat party. Even to this very day, they have the black popluation fooled into beliving they represent their best interests. All they see blacks for is easy 'votes'.

worlock77

The Democratic party of today is not the same as the Democratic party of the 1860s. Just as the Republican party of today is not the same as the Republican party of the 1860s. Whatever non-point you're trying to make is laughable.

yeah, the dems were the conservatives back then.

it's the reason why people, nowadays, are careful to say "liberal democrat" instead of just "democrat"

Avatar image for Phaze-Two
Phaze-Two

3444

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#59 Phaze-Two
Member since 2009 • 3444 Posts

Abolishing Slavery =/= equal rights between white and black races. Thats why it took like 100 years for it to be equal, thats when martin luther king showed up.

Abe was likey a racist, but he must of really hated slavery.

ReaperV7

read the second quote. the abolishment of slavery was to get the black slaves on his his side.

Avatar image for Palantas
Palantas

15329

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 3

User Lists: 0

#60 Palantas
Member since 2002 • 15329 Posts

Most people in the past were some sort of -ist, and therefore were evil by my modern, progressive definition of good. Basically just about everyone prior to 1970 was evil, and should receive nothing but condemnation from history.

Avatar image for worlock77
worlock77

22552

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#61 worlock77
Member since 2009 • 22552 Posts

[QUOTE="ReaperV7"]

Abolishing Slavery =/= equal rights between white and black races. Thats why it took like 100 years for it to be equal, thats when martin luther king showed up.

Abe was likey a racist, but he must of really hated slavery.

Phaze-Two

read the second quote. the abolishment of slavery was to get the black slaves on his his side.

Unfortunately there's no citation listed for that quote. I know there are many quotes floating around out there that are attributed to Lincoln, but for which there's no evidence that he ever actually said.

Avatar image for Pixel-Pirate
Pixel-Pirate

10771

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 4

User Lists: 0

#62 Pixel-Pirate
Member since 2009 • 10771 Posts

"I am not now, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social or political equality of the white and black races. I am not now nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor of intermarriages with white people. There is a physical difference between the white and the black races which will forever forbid the two races living together on social or political equality. There must be a position of superior and inferior, and I am in favor of assigning the superior position to the white man."-1858

"I thought that in your struggle for the Union, to whatever extent the negroes should cease helping the enemy, to that extent it weakened the enemy in his resistance to you. Do you think differently? I thought that whatever negroes can be got to do as soldiers, leaves just so much less for white soldiers to do, in saving the Union. Does it appear otherwise to you? But negroes, like other people, act upon motives. Why should they do any thing for us, if we will do nothing for them?"-August 26, 1863

Is it just me or does this guy get more credit than he deserves?


Discuss!

BessenStock

He does. Able Lincolns move to free the slaves was mostly a political move. Not out of the kindness of his soul because it made him cry.

The man seriously gets too much credit. He was a good president but I don't think he was near the best, nor did he have a heart of gold. He was a politician.

Avatar image for psychobrew
psychobrew

8888

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 3

User Lists: 0

#63 psychobrew
Member since 2008 • 8888 Posts

"I am not now, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social or political equality of the white and black races. I am not now nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor of intermarriages with white people. There is a physical difference between the white and the black races which will forever forbid the two races living together on social or political equality. There must be a position of superior and inferior, and I am in favor of assigning the superior position to the white man."-1858

"I thought that in your struggle for the Union, to whatever extent the negroes should cease helping the enemy, to that extent it weakened the enemy in his resistance to you. Do you think differently? I thought that whatever negroes can be got to do as soldiers, leaves just so much less for white soldiers to do, in saving the Union. Does it appear otherwise to you? But negroes, like other people, act upon motives. Why should they do any thing for us, if we will do nothing for them?"-August 26, 1863

Is it just me or does this guy get more credit than he deserves?


Discuss!

BessenStock

The quotes are taken out of context, but really, what do you expect? The man was trying to win votes in an extremely racist society. He often changed his message based on the group he was speaking to, and in these cases, they were part of much longer letters to extremely racist people who he was trying to gain support from in an effort to keep the union together.

Judge him on his actions, not on his words.

Avatar image for TELLMEYOURLIFE
TELLMEYOURLIFE

552

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#64 TELLMEYOURLIFE
Member since 2010 • 552 Posts

The Ku Klux Klan was founded by the Democrat party.

p2250
They pretty much switched sides since then. You can't really use that as a serious argument.
Avatar image for psychobrew
psychobrew

8888

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 3

User Lists: 0

#65 psychobrew
Member since 2008 • 8888 Posts

[QUOTE="Oleg_Huzwog"]

What's wrong with the second quote?

Phaze-Two

it just reveals his true motive for freeing the slaves.

Then maybe you should read the full quote:

"There was more than a year and a half of trial to suppress the rebellion before the proclamation issued, the last one hundred days of which passed under an explicit notice that it was coming, unless averted by those in revolt, returning to their allegiance. The war has certainly progressed as favorably for us, since the issue of proclamation as before. I know, as fully as one can know the opinions of others, that some of the commanders of our armies in the field who have given us our most important successes believe the emancipation policy and the use of the colored troops constitute the heaviest blow yet dealt to the Rebellion, and that at least one of these important successes could not have been achieved when it was but for the aid of black soldiers. Among the commanders holding these views are some who have never had any affinity with what is called abolitionism or with the Republican party policies but who held them purely as military opinions. I submit these opinions as being entitled to some weight against the objections often urged that emancipation and arming the blacks are unwise as military measures and were not adopted as such in good faith.You say you will not fight to free negroes. Some of them seem willing to fight for you; but, no matter. Fight you, then exclusively to save the Union. I issued the proclamation on purpose to aid you in saving the Union. Whenever you shall have conquered all resistance to the Union, if I shall urge you to continue fighting, it will be an apt time, then, for you to declare you will not fight to free negroes.I thought that in your struggle for the Union, to whatever extent the negroes should cease helping the enemy, to that extent it weakened the enemy in his resistance to you. Do you think differently? I thought that whatever negroes can be got to do as soldiers, leaves just so much less for white soldiers to do, in saving the Union. Does it appear otherwise to you? But negroes, like other people, act upon motives. Why should they do any thing for us, if we will do nothing for them? If they stake their lives for us, they must be prompted by the strongest motive—even the promise of freedom. And the promise being made, must be kept."

It was a letter to a racist in an attempt to gain his support for the war.

Avatar image for gamerkid600
gamerkid600

435

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#66 gamerkid600
Member since 2008 • 435 Posts

That racist son of a.......:shock:

I'm actually shocked because I never heard about this when I was in highschool.

Avatar image for deactivated-59d151f079814
deactivated-59d151f079814

47239

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#67 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

That racist son of a.......:shock:

I'm actually shocked because I never heard about this when I was in highschool.

gamerkid600

Should have been kind of obvious, with the treatment of the Native Americans during and after it.. Accepted racism and biggotry against certain cultures really only started going down by the 1960s to 80s.. Hell even now we are seeing a relapse in alot of the hostility within the nation towards Muslims.

Avatar image for dontshackzmii
dontshackzmii

6026

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 4

User Lists: 0

#68 dontshackzmii
Member since 2009 • 6026 Posts

people seem to forget he was a man of his time. People were like that back then. People today are nothing like they were back then .

Avatar image for theone86
theone86

22669

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 3

User Lists: 0

#69 theone86
Member since 2003 • 22669 Posts

Here's another Lincoln quote:

When the Know-Nothings get control, it [the Declaration of Independence] will read: "All men are created equal except negroes, foreigners and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy.

It's sometimes hard to gauge just what some of these early figures meant when they spoke about African-Americans. I know many people accuse Jefferson of being racist, but he was one of the earliest American abolitionists. He didn't abondon those principes because he sudden;y viewed African-Americans as inferior, he did it out of political pragmatism (there's a question to if the Constitution would have been ratified without the 3/5ths provision). I'm not saying that's completely defensible, but it's not like he just woke up one day and said to himself, "I'm gonna hate black people." I'm not saying there shouldn't be some criticism of figures like Lincoln and Jefferson, but it should include all the information about them and not just the parts that reflect poorly on them.

Avatar image for ferrari2001
ferrari2001

17772

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 9

User Lists: 0

#70 ferrari2001
Member since 2008 • 17772 Posts
umm, yes that's sort of the cultural view in the 1800's your point being?
Avatar image for TBoogy
TBoogy

4382

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#71 TBoogy
Member since 2007 • 4382 Posts
This is the REAL hero of that era: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown_(abolitionist) My favorite white guy ever, plus he could kick Chuck Norris' butt! (funny, he kinda looks like Lincoln.)
Avatar image for deactivated-59d151f079814
deactivated-59d151f079814

47239

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#72 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

Here's another Lincoln quote:

When the Know-Nothings get control, it [the Declaration of Independence] will read: "All men are created equal except negroes, foreigners and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy.

It's sometimes hard to gauge just what some of these early figures meant when they spoke about African-Americans. I know many people accuse Jefferson of being racist, but he was one of the earliest American abolitionists. He didn't abondon those principes because he sudden;y viewed African-Americans as inferior, he did it out of political pragmatism (there's a question to if the Constitution would have been ratified without the 3/5ths provision). I'm not saying that's completely defensible, but it's not like he just woke up one day and said to himself, "I'm gonna hate black people." I'm not saying there shouldn't be some criticism of figures like Lincoln and Jefferson, but it should include all the information about them and not just the parts that reflect poorly on them.

theone86

I honestly think they meant good in a extremely patronizing way.. Much like how people tried to "help" the Native Americans by erasing their supposed "savage" and "uncivilized" ways.. During that time, cultural pluralism didn't exist..

Avatar image for GabuEx
GabuEx

36552

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 27

User Lists: 0

#73 GabuEx
Member since 2006 • 36552 Posts

I rather think the first quote deserves its full context, rather than the scalpel treatment it has received here. Italicized is the portion that has been quoted:

"While I was at the hotel to-day, an elderly gentleman called upon me to know whether I was really in favor of producing a perfect equality between the negroes and white people. While I had not proposed to myself on this occasion to say much on that subject, yet as the question was asked me I thought I would occupy perhaps five minutes in saying something in regard to it.

"I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races; that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say, in addition to this, that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And in as much as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.

"I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything. I do not understand that because I do not want a negro woman for a slave I must necessarily want her for a wife. My understanding is that I can just let her alone. I am now in my fiftieth year, and I certainly never have had a black woman for either a slave or a wife. So it seems to me quite possible for us to get along without making either slaves or wives of negroes. I will add to this that I have never seen, to my knowledge, a man, woman, or child who was in favor of producing a perfect equality, social and political, between negroes and white men. I recollect of but one distinguished instance that I ever heard of so frequently as to be entirely satisfied of its correctness, and that is the case of Judge Douglas's old friend Colonel Richard M. Johnson. I will also add to the remarks I have made (for I am not going to enter at large upon this subject), that I have never had the least apprehension that I or my friends would marry negroes if there was no law to keep them from it; but as Judge Douglas and his friends seem to be in great apprehension that they might, if there were no law to keep them from it, I give him the most solemn pledge that I will to the very last stand by the law of this State which forbids the marrying of white people with negroes.

"I will add one further word, which is this: that I do not understand that there is any place where an alteration of the social and political relations of the negro and the white man can be made, except in the State Legislature,--not in the Congress of the United States; and as I do not really apprehend the approach of any such thing myself, and as Judge Douglas seems to be in constant horror that some such danger is rapidly approaching, I propose as the best means to prevent it that the Judge be kept at home, and placed in the State Legislature to fight the measure. I do not propose dwelling longer at this time on this subject."

The bottom line is exactly what people have been taught in history books: Abraham Lincoln had very progressive views on black people and slavery for a successful white male politician living in the 1800s. To judge Abraham Lincoln on twenty-first century standards, one would have to conclude that basically every single person who ever existed more than a couple decades ago is the vilest person to have ever lived.

Avatar image for LastCaveMan
LastCaveMan

300

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#74 LastCaveMan
Member since 2010 • 300 Posts

you are looking at the quotes from a modern perspective. things were a lot different back then, they obviously didn't know as much as we do now. what lincoln said was just common thinking, back then

Avatar image for mrbojangles25
mrbojangles25

60740

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 11

User Lists: 0

#75 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 60740 Posts
[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
Avatar image for VisigothSaxon
VisigothSaxon

3789

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#76 VisigothSaxon
Member since 2008 • 3789 Posts

Am I the only one that would have wanted to be in the US army during WWII?

Avatar image for TBoogy
TBoogy

4382

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#77 TBoogy
Member since 2007 • 4382 Posts
[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

I rather think the first quote deserves its full context, rather than the scalpel treatment it has received here. Italicized is the portion that has been quoted:

"While I was at the hotel to-day, an elderly gentleman called upon me to know whether I was really in favor of producing a perfect equality between the negroes and white people. While I had not proposed to myself on this occasion to say much on that subject, yet as the question was asked me I thought I would occupy perhaps five minutes in saying something in regard to it.

"I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races; that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say, in addition to this, that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And in as much as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.

"I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything. I do not understand that because I do not want a negro woman for a slave I must necessarily want her for a wife. My understanding is that I can just let her alone. I am now in my fiftieth year, and I certainly never have had a black woman for either a slave or a wife. So it seems to me quite possible for us to get along without making either slaves or wives of negroes. I will add to this that I have never seen, to my knowledge, a man, woman, or child who was in favor of producing a perfect equality, social and political, between negroes and white men. I recollect of but one distinguished instance that I ever heard of so frequently as to be entirely satisfied of its correctness, and that is the case of Judge Douglas's old friend Colonel Richard M. Johnson. I will also add to the remarks I have made (for I am not going to enter at large upon this subject), that I have never had the least apprehension that I or my friends would marry negroes if there was no law to keep them from it; but as Judge Douglas and his friends seem to be in great apprehension that they might, if there were no law to keep them from it, I give him the most solemn pledge that I will to the very last stand by the law of this State which forbids the marrying of white people with negroes.

"I will add one further word, which is this: that I do not understand that there is any place where an alteration of the social and political relations of the negro and the white man can be made, except in the State Legislature,--not in the Congress of the United States; and as I do not really apprehend the approach of any such thing myself, and as Judge Douglas seems to be in constant horror that some such danger is rapidly approaching, I propose as the best means to prevent it that the Judge be kept at home, and placed in the State Legislature to fight the measure. I do not propose dwelling longer at this time on this subject."

The bottom line is exactly what people have been taught in history books: Abraham Lincoln had very progressive views on black people and slavery for a successful white male politician living in the 1800s. To judge Abraham Lincoln on twenty-first century standards, one would have to conclude that basically every single person who ever existed more than a couple decades ago is the vilest person to have ever lived.

I gotta admit, the full quote does change the tone quite a bit.
Avatar image for theone86
theone86

22669

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 3

User Lists: 0

#78 theone86
Member since 2003 • 22669 Posts

Abolishing Slavery =/= equal rights between white and black races. Thats why it took like 100 years for it to be equal, thats when martin luther king showed up.

Abe was likey a racist, but he must of really hated slavery.

ReaperV7

Lincoln actually had lofty plans for re-patriating freed slaves and created the Freedmen's Bureau which was key in establishing insitiutions to attempt to help freed slaves in the south. His successor, Johnson, rallied against it.

Avatar image for GabuEx
GabuEx

36552

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 27

User Lists: 0

#79 GabuEx
Member since 2006 • 36552 Posts

I gotta admit, the full quote does change the tone quite a bit.TBoogy

It usually does. :P

Avatar image for bsman00
bsman00

6038

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#80 bsman00
Member since 2008 • 6038 Posts

It was the 1800's everyone was racist

Avatar image for theone86
theone86

22669

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 3

User Lists: 0

#81 theone86
Member since 2003 • 22669 Posts

[QUOTE="theone86"]

Here's another Lincoln quote:

When the Know-Nothings get control, it [the Declaration of Independence] will read: "All men are created equal except negroes, foreigners and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy.

It's sometimes hard to gauge just what some of these early figures meant when they spoke about African-Americans. I know many people accuse Jefferson of being racist, but he was one of the earliest American abolitionists. He didn't abondon those principes because he sudden;y viewed African-Americans as inferior, he did it out of political pragmatism (there's a question to if the Constitution would have been ratified without the 3/5ths provision). I'm not saying that's completely defensible, but it's not like he just woke up one day and said to himself, "I'm gonna hate black people." I'm not saying there shouldn't be some criticism of figures like Lincoln and Jefferson, but it should include all the information about them and not just the parts that reflect poorly on them.

sSubZerOo

I honestly think they meant good in a extremely patronizing way.. Much like how people tried to "help" the Native Americans by erasing their supposed "savage" and "uncivilized" ways.. During that time, cultural pluralism didn't exist..

Depends on the person. Jefferson was actually pretty adamant about slaves being equal at first, he had lived around slaves all his life and had never viewed them as any different then he was. Aside from realizing the political reality of supporting abolition, his view also changed somewhat when junk sciences were introduced to support the continuation of slavery. He was a man who believed in science, and when the scientific community accepted these pseudo-sciences he bought into it, at least to some degree. So for him it wasn't patronizing at first, it was idealistic until he capitulated to the commonly held view. Lincoln, I dunno, he seemed to be pretty idealistic at times, such as in the quote I posted. At other times he seemed to not only accept but completely believe in the inferiority of African-Americans. I'd have to study him a little more to say for sure, but I will say that the Jefferson paradox (writing that all men are created equal and then signing a document that says black people are 3/5ths of a person) is a good metaphor for what most public figures were like in that era. On one hand they believe deeply in these principles of freedom and equality, and on the other all of society is telling them that those principles aren't universal. I think it's hard to sort out sometimes where they're being patronizing and where they're being idealistic, so I choose to praise the quotes that are idealistic, like the aforementioned Lincoln one, and condemn the ones that are patronizing, like the one where Lincoln expresses his belief that African-Americans are inferior.

Avatar image for -Sun_Tzu-
-Sun_Tzu-

17384

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#82 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts
Lincoln's view of blacks and especially the evolution of his view of blacks is something that I've always found very interesting. Fredrick Douglass in particular really changed Abe's outlook on race and equality. In the last speech that Lincoln gave he spoke of extending suffrage to freed slaves, and it was after hearing that speech that John Wilkes Booth changed his mind and decided on assassinating Lincoln rather than just kidnapping him which was the original plan.
Avatar image for Palantas
Palantas

15329

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 3

User Lists: 0

#83 Palantas
Member since 2002 • 15329 Posts

To judge Abraham Lincoln on twenty-first century standards, one would have to conclude that basically every single person who ever existed more than a couple decades ago is the vilest person to have ever lived.

GabuEx

Well, yeah. All people throughout history should be judged by the progressive standards I've invented in my comfortable 21st-century life. Obviously.

Avatar image for Xx_Hopeless_xX
Xx_Hopeless_xX

16562

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#84 Xx_Hopeless_xX
Member since 2009 • 16562 Posts

I pointed this out months ago in a thread i made about the civil war...

Waiting..for..if it hasn't already happened..for people to say that you're lying..

Avatar image for Necrifer
Necrifer

10629

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#85 Necrifer
Member since 2010 • 10629 Posts

I pointed this out months ago in a thread i made about the civil war...

Waiting..for..if it hasn't already happened..for people to say that you're lying..

Xx_Hopeless_xX

You're lying...

Avatar image for Xx_Hopeless_xX
Xx_Hopeless_xX

16562

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#86 Xx_Hopeless_xX
Member since 2009 • 16562 Posts

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

I pointed this out months ago in a thread i made about the civil war...

Waiting..for..if it hasn't already happened..for people to say that you're lying..

Necrifer

You're lying...

Well you're lying about me lying..so there..
Avatar image for fidosim
fidosim

12901

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 15

User Lists: 0

#87 fidosim
Member since 2003 • 12901 Posts
Dear God, it's almost like Lincoln was a real (complex) person, and not just an image on our currency.
Avatar image for TSNAKE617
TSNAKE617

5494

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#88 TSNAKE617
Member since 2008 • 5494 Posts

Umm... Links?

Avatar image for Former_Slacker
Former_Slacker

2618

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#89 Former_Slacker
Member since 2009 • 2618 Posts

You should check out Jefferson, owned 267 slaves. Had an affair with at least one of them. All while saying that he was uncomfortable with slavery and was just doing this to pay off his debt, 2/3s of which was incurred because of buying those slaves to work on his land. He also didn't want a multi-ethnic society, as soon as the slaves were free he wanted to ship them all off to Haiti. Lets not even get started on Jackson.

Avatar image for Former_Slacker
Former_Slacker

2618

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#90 Former_Slacker
Member since 2009 • 2618 Posts

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

To judge Abraham Lincoln on twenty-first century standards, one would have to conclude that basically every single person who ever existed more than a couple decades ago is the vilest person to have ever lived.

Palantas

Well, yeah. All people throughout history should be judged by the progressive standards I've invented in my comfortable 21st-century life. Obviously.

It's not that we should judge them by modern day standard but that he was a massive hypocrite.

Avatar image for GabuEx
GabuEx

36552

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 27

User Lists: 0

#91 GabuEx
Member since 2006 • 36552 Posts

[QUOTE="Palantas"]

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

To judge Abraham Lincoln on twenty-first century standards, one would have to conclude that basically every single person who ever existed more than a couple decades ago is the vilest person to have ever lived.

Former_Slacker

Well, yeah. All people throughout history should be judged by the progressive standards I've invented in my comfortable 21st-century life. Obviously.

It's not that we should judge them by modern day standard but that he was a massive hypocrite.

How?

Avatar image for dsmccracken
dsmccracken

7307

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#92 dsmccracken
Member since 2003 • 7307 Posts

"I am not now, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social or political equality of the white and black races. I am not now nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor of intermarriages with white people. There is a physical difference between the white and the black races which will forever forbid the two races living together on social or political equality. There must be a position of superior and inferior, and I am in favor of assigning the superior position to the white man."-1858

"I thought that in your struggle for the Union, to whatever extent the negroes should cease helping the enemy, to that extent it weakened the enemy in his resistance to you. Do you think differently? I thought that whatever negroes can be got to do as soldiers, leaves just so much less for white soldiers to do, in saving the Union. Does it appear otherwise to you? But negroes, like other people, act upon motives. Why should they do any thing for us, if we will do nothing for them?"-August 26, 1863

Is it just me or does this guy get more credit than he deserves?


Discuss!

BessenStock

This is the problem with looking at historical events and people through the modern lense.... it leads to an anachronistic interpretation. Was Lincoln racist? By our modern standards, I don't see how you can answer anything but yes. But he didn't live in our time, he lived in his. And in his time, he was instrumental in the abolishion of slavery in America. That is why he's revered, not for meeting some modern ideal of enlightenment and tolerance.

Avatar image for Rez89x
Rez89x

84

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#93 Rez89x
Member since 2010 • 84 Posts

There is a big difference in what is taught (about Lincoln) at the HS at college levels. The removal of slavery was not meant to bring about equality.rawsavon

This. A lot of people were against slavery but not racism. They are completely different and for some reason high school makes them the same. Andrew Jackson (Abe's successor) was also against slavery, however he was probably one of the most racist people in the south.

Avatar image for deactivated-59d151f079814
deactivated-59d151f079814

47239

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#94 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]There is a big difference in what is taught (about Lincoln) at the HS at college levels. The removal of slavery was not meant to bring about equality.Rez89x

This. A lot of people were against slavery but not racism. They are completely different and for some reason high school makes them the same. Andrew Jackson (Abe's successor) was also against slavery, however he was probably one of the most racist people in the south.

Yeah he headed the Indian Removal Act, a dispicable piece of legislation that caused the Trail of Tears.

Avatar image for GabuEx
GabuEx

36552

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 27

User Lists: 0

#95 GabuEx
Member since 2006 • 36552 Posts

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]There is a big difference in what is taught (about Lincoln) at the HS at college levels. The removal of slavery was not meant to bring about equality.Rez89x

This. A lot of people were against slavery but not racism. They are completely different and for some reason high school makes them the same. Andrew Jackson (Abe's successor) was also against slavery, however he was probably one of the most racist people in the south.

Johnson, not Jackson. Jackson was a terrible person even for his time. :P

Avatar image for deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51
deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51

57548

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 19

User Lists: 0

#96 deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51
Member since 2004 • 57548 Posts

I'd have to see the context in which those quotes were made.

Avatar image for deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51
deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51

57548

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 19

User Lists: 0

#97 deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51
Member since 2004 • 57548 Posts
[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="Rez89x"]

There is a big difference in what is taught (about Lincoln) at the HS at college levels. The removal of slavery was not meant to bring about equality.rawsavon

This. A lot of people were against slavery but not racism. They are completely different and for some reason high school makes them the same. Andrew Jackson (Abe's successor) was also against slavery, however he was probably one of the most racist people in the south.

Johnson, not Jackson. Jackson was a terrible person even for his time. :P

Johnson was just a terrible president. :P
Avatar image for LJS9502_basic
LJS9502_basic

180134

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#98 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180134 Posts
The times were a bit different back then.....and compared to what was accepted Lincoln was a bit more progressive.
Avatar image for tylergamereview
tylergamereview

2051

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 19

User Lists: 0

#99 tylergamereview
Member since 2006 • 2051 Posts
You do realize that there were people back then who would harm, kill, kidnap, and even rape someone because they were black, right? Abe freed the slaves, and you're calling him racist? Even if it was only to help in the effort to win the war, I don't think someone whose "racism is incredible" would do that.
Avatar image for Treflis
Treflis

13757

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#100 Treflis
Member since 2004 • 13757 Posts
The equality of a man is not judged by what he says, but what he does.