Abortion is discussed on the Daily Show with Mike Huckabee...

at least all I'm passing as moral judgments, not death sentences like woman who get abortions :)AdrianWerner

First off, cognition and consciousness are present in the children already alive and suffering, that is not present in a fetus, they don't know they will never live. To me, nobody is raising my child but me, you can call it selfish, but there are some hideous atrocities (abuse, molestation, rape) that occur in foster care, I refuse to subject my child to that.Shhadow_Viper

right...you would rather kill your own child...that's not atrocity at all. And really...kids who stay in foster care for many years are those who get there as older kids. A newborns have very little problems with finding foster families.

The real question is WHO ARE YOU to decide whether or not someone else gives birth to their potential child? Unless you can promise to take care of all these children you have no room to talk. Shhadow_Viper

is this how you calm your conscience? I guess you're also have no problem with all the other atrocities that happen to kids like rape or forced prostitution either using this logic. After all if you can't take care of all those children then you have no right to protest, right?

[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]at least all I'm passing as moral judgments, not death sentences like woman who get abortions :)T_P_O

[QUOTE="T_P_O"][QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]at least all I'm passing as moral judgments, not death sentences like woman who get abortions :)AdrianWerner

fetus

[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]

[QUOTE="T_P_O"] Your own morals maybe. effena

fetus

[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]

[QUOTE="T_P_O"] Your own morals maybe. effena

fetus

To me it doesn't matter when it truly begins, a fetus is still a child to me, whether it's human, whether it's aware..heck whether a soul descended upon his body yet..doesn't matter. To me hose are all technicalities used solely as excuses. To me it boils to this: if you leave it alone it will be born.

Even roman law knew the concept of protecting future gains. If a company can demand reparations for loss of future profits then why would unborn child deserve less protection

[QUOTE="effena"]

[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]maybe so. You know what's the difference though? If I'm wrong all that happens is I make a fool out of myself, if such woman is wrong, it ends up with child's death.

AdrianWerner

fetus

To me it doesn't matter when it truly begins, a fetus is still a child to me, whether it's human, whether it's aware..heck whether a soul descended upon his body yet..doesn't matter. To me hose are all technicalities used solely as excuses. To me it boils to this: if you leave it alone it will be born.

Even roman law knew the concept of protecting future gains. If a company can demand reparations for loss of future profits then why would unborn child deserve less protection

Link

This is because if they allow the child to be born, that child is going to grow up a very angry person.

Trmpt

Let me ask you a question? When does it cease being a fetus and become a child?ferrari2001

20 weeks, imo. It varies thoughout opinions. Pro-lifers would say it starts at conception. Some of the more extreme pro-choice people would support abortions mere hours before birth.

[QUOTE="effena"]

[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]maybe so. You know what's the difference though? If I'm wrong all that happens is I make a fool out of myself, if such woman is wrong, it ends up with child's death.

ferrari2001

fetus

[QUOTE="T_P_O"][QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]at least all I'm passing as moral judgments, not death sentences like woman who get abortions :)AdrianWerner

It is one thing to be pro-life. It is another thing to not even recognize the legitimacy of the views of those who differ from you; to reduce those who think differently to nothing more than vile baby killers while you act as if you are some moral arbiter.

[QUOTE="ferrari2001"][QUOTE="effena"]

fetus

MrPraline

I just would never be able to do it, even if it was a result of rape.Maddy_K

Good for you :) neither would I. That just isn't something i would be able to live with. I can't speak for all women, though. That's why i'm pro choice.

[QUOTE="MrPraline"][QUOTE="ferrari2001"] Let me ask you a question? When does it cease being a fetus and become a child?ferrari2001

[QUOTE="Maddy_K"]I just would never be able to do it, even if it was a result of rape.effena

Good for you :) neither would I. That just isn't something i would be able to live with. I can't speak for all women, though. That's why i'm pro choice.

[QUOTE="ferrari2001"]

[QUOTE="MrPraline"] Birth.hamstergeddon

[QUOTE="hamstergeddon"][QUOTE="ferrari2001"] What about 5 min before birth. What is different at that point than 5 min later when the child is born beside the child being 7 to 8 inches away from where it previously was.

ferrari2001

...and some people in that position beg for death, and most civilized countries wont allow that. But that's another argument all together.

[QUOTE="Shhadow_Viper"]First off, cognition and consciousness are present in the children already alive and suffering, that is not present in a fetus, they don't know they will never live. To me, nobody is raising my child but me, you can call it selfish, but there are some hideous atrocities (abuse, molestation, rape) that occur in foster care, I refuse to subject my child to that.AdrianWerner

right...you would rather kill your own child...that's not atrocity at all. And really...kids who stay in foster care for many years are those who get there as older kids. A newborns have very little problems with finding foster families.

The real question is WHO ARE YOU to decide whether or not someone else gives birth to their potential child? Unless you can promise to take care of all these children you have no room to talk. Shhadow_Viper

is this how you calm your conscience? I guess you're also have no problem with all the other atrocities that happen to kids like rape or forced prostitution either using this logic. After all if you can't take care of all those children then you have no right to protest, right?

[QUOTE="ferrari2001"]Let me ask you a question? When does it cease being a fetus and become a child?effena

20 weeks, imo. It varies thoughout opinions. Pro-lifers would say it starts at conception. Some of the more extreme pro-choice people would support abortions mere hours before birth.

In your opinion... Meaning it could start earlier, depending on the child. Meaning humans are, without a doubt being killed. And you support this.

[QUOTE="ferrari2001"][QUOTE="hamstergeddon"] Now it's breathing. Now it's perceiving the world. Now it's a self-sufficient lifeform. effena

...and some people in that position beg for death, and most civilized countries wont allow that. But that's another argument all together.

[QUOTE="effena"]

[QUOTE="ferrari2001"] Could it not have been in the mother? I mean everything about the child is the same. It thinks the same, knows the same, has the same organs etc. By that logical, an old person hooked up to a breathing regulator and feeding tube, and no longer viable of life. ferrari2001

...and some people in that position beg for death, and most civilized countries wont allow that. But that's another argument all together.

Oh please. Enough with this moral superiority. What is the real implication of you being wrong? The implication would be that an overwhelming number of women have essentially become enslaved by the state, being reduced to nothing more than a medium for breeding.

-Sun_Tzu-

People should face consequences of their actions, you're careless/stupid enough to get pregnant, the least you can do is carry the child till it's born. The world won't end up just because of that. A few months of walking around with a bigger belly isn't such a horrible punishment, most women go through it at least once in their life, since the begining of human race and somehow they survived.

It is one thing to be pro-life. It is another thing to not even recognize the legitimacy of the views of those who differ from you; to reduce those who think differently to nothing more than vile baby killers while you act as if you are some moral arbiter.-Sun_Tzu-

you kill a child you are a child killer, it's as simple as that, you might consider it a good thing, that in some cases you're entitled to killing, that's fine, just accept who you are and don't hide behind petty excuses.

[QUOTE="ferrari2001"]

[QUOTE="MrPraline"] Birth.hamstergeddon

Someone in a coma is not a human, then.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

Oh please. Enough with this moral superiority. What is the real implication of you being wrong? The implication would be that an overwhelming number of women have essentially become enslaved by the state, being reduced to nothing more than a medium for breeding.

People should face consequences of their actions, you're careless/stupid enough to get pregnant, the least you can do is carry the child till it's born. The world won't end up just because of that. A few months of walking around with a bigger belly isn't such a horrible punishment, most women go through it at least once in their life, since the begining of human race and somehow they survived.

It is one thing to be pro-life. It is another thing to not even recognize the legitimacy of the views of those who differ from you; to reduce those who think differently to nothing more than vile baby killers while you act as if you are some moral arbiter.-Sun_Tzu-

you kill a child you are a child killer, it's as simple as that, you might consider it a good thing, that in some cases you're entitled to killing, that's fine, just accept who you are and don't hide behind petty excuses.

Because a fetus is not guaranteed the same rights by the constitution as a born person is.-Sun_Tzu-

depends on which country's constitution you're talking about. And just because a law allows something doesn't mean it' right.

Most law systems do give at last some rights to unborn children, some less, some more, but it's rare to find a civilized western country who would have law that would treat somebody as human solely after he's born.

[QUOTE="ferrari2001"][QUOTE="effena"]

...and some people in that position beg for death, and most civilized countries wont allow that. But that's another argument all together.

-Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

Oh please. Enough with this moral superiority. What is the real implication of you being wrong? The implication would be that an overwhelming number of women have essentially become enslaved by the state, being reduced to nothing more than a medium for breeding.

AdrianWerner

People should face consequences of their actions, you're careless/stupid enough to get pregnant, the least you can do is carry the child till it's born. The world won't end up just because of that. A few months of walking around with a bigger belly isn't such a horrible punishment, most women go through it at least once in their life, since the begining of human race and somehow they survived.

It is one thing to be pro-life. It is another thing to not even recognize the legitimacy of the views of those who differ from you; to reduce those who think differently to nothing more than vile baby killers while you act as if you are some moral arbiter.-Sun_Tzu-

you kill a child you are a child killer, it's as simple as that, you might consider it a good thing, that in some cases you're entitled to killing, that's fine, just accept who you are and don't hide behind petty excuses.

then i guess you are one too.CrumUnderMe

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="ferrari2001"] Not really? Logically speaking the old people or people in coma's are in the same position as the fetus. If you can't kill them, then why can you kill a fetus. ferrari2001

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="ferrari2001"] Not really? Logically speaking the old people or people in coma's are in the same position as the fetus. If you can't kill them, then why can you kill a fetus. ferrari2001

What right is there for another person to use the body of another for a substantial period of time?-Sun_Tzu-

In case of pregnant woman she has a choice and opportunity not to get pregnant, if she already is despite this, well the consequence of this is to loose some freedom for short period of time. Because here you have a direct conflict of two values: right to live vs right to use your own body freely. And as important as the latter is, the former has a lot bigger value and has to take precedence.

[QUOTE="effena"]

[QUOTE="ferrari2001"]Let me ask you a question? When does it cease being a fetus and become a child?McJugga

20 weeks, imo. It varies thoughout opinions. Pro-lifers would say it starts at conception. Some of the more extreme pro-choice people would support abortions mere hours before birth.

In your opinion... Meaning it could start earlier, depending on the child. Meaning humans are, without a doubt being killed. And you support this.

Well, yes it can differ. I live in Canada, and our constitution states that life begins at birth.Canada is one of only three countries that has absolutely no restrictions on abortions.

To me, aborting a fetus hours before birth is murder.To the Canadian government, it's not.

Where life begins is subjective, and that's how the arguments begin.

[QUOTE="ferrari2001"]Let me ask you a question? When does it cease being a fetus and become a child?MrPraline

You keep constructing these strawmen instead of directly addressing the points I make, I wonder why that is? You can't make up a new scenario and claim it fits my logic, to discredit my points. You actually have to address the point I make if you wish to discredit it. Aborting a fetus is not killing a child. Nowhere near the same thing. If you want people to take you seriously, you need to DIRECTLY address my points, not make up an alternate situation, and pretend that's what I believe. Abortions are not an act of glory, but they also are not cold blooded murders. The intent to spare a potential life harm is not the same as taking a life just to do so..Shhadow_Viper

you are killing something there. Even if you do not consider it to be human yet. My argument is simple: I don't care when human life begins, so you're just arguing about something I never really asked about. you are preventing human from being born. That;s all. No matter when human life begins, if you do not abort a human will be born. It's the result that matters

The point is that the intent is to prevent the unnecessary suffering of a life that may be. I do not need to calm my conscience, as I have done nothing wrong. Keep in mind that strawmen do not help your argument.Shhadow_Viper

No, the one grasping for straws is you. You keep making wild stories, possibilities, potential terrible outcomes and by that..you claim that the possibility of future suffering for the child is enough to make you decide to have it not be born at all.

You're avoiding the issue: who gives you the right to decide if the child should live the life of suffering nor not live at all? Why do you presume you are entitled on deciding who should be born and who w shouldn't? And what's more...I love how you completely ignored the adoption solution, guess it didn't fit your argument.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]What right is there for another person to use the body of another for a substantial period of time?AdrianWerner

In case of pregnant woman she has a choice and opportunity not to get pregnant, if she already is despite this, well the consequence of this is to loose some freedom for short period of time. Because here you have a direct conflict of two values: right to live vs right to use your own body freely. And as important as the latter is, the former has a lot bigger value and has to take precedence.

You say that abortion when it comes to rape is fine. How can that be? A women who gets rape still bears some responsibility for what happened, not necessarily guilt, but some degree of responsibility. How is abortion acceptable then, but when it comes to the woman acted safe and responsibly when it came to contraception gets pregnant, she should be forced to carry her child to term?

And the question also arises, why is it alright to kill a child just because his father was a rapist?

[QUOTE="Shhadow_Viper"]You keep constructing these strawmen instead of directly addressing the points I make, I wonder why that is? You can't make up a new scenario and claim it fits my logic, to discredit my points. You actually have to address the point I make if you wish to discredit it. Aborting a fetus is not killing a child. Nowhere near the same thing. If you want people to take you seriously, you need to DIRECTLY address my points, not make up an alternate situation, and pretend that's what I believe. Abortions are not an act of glory, but they also are not cold blooded murders. The intent to spare a potential life harm is not the same as taking a life just to do so..AdrianWerner

you are killing something there. Even if you do not consider it to be human yet. My argument is simple: I don't care when human life begins, so you're just arguing about something I never really asked about. you are preventing human from being born. That;s all. No matter when human life begins, if you do not abort a human will be born. It's the result that matters

The point is that the intent is to prevent the unnecessary suffering of a life that may be. I do not need to calm my conscience, as I have done nothing wrong. Keep in mind that strawmen do not help your argument.Shhadow_Viper

No, the one grasping for straws is you. You keep making wild stories, possibilities, potential terrible outcomes and by that..you claim that the possibility of future suffering for the child is enough to make you decide to have it not be born at all.

You're avoiding the issue: who gives you the right to decide if the child should live the life of suffering nor not live at all? Why do you presume you are entitled on deciding who should be born and who w shouldn't? And what's more...I love how you completely ignored the adoption solution, guess it didn't fit your argument.

Well, yes it can differ. I live in Canada, and our constitution states that life begins at birth.Canada is one of only three countries that has absolutely no restrictions on abortions.

To me, aborting a fetus hours before birth is murder.To the Canadian government, it's not.

Where life begins is subjective, and that's how the arguments begin.

effena

@ -Sun_Tzu- Lol...now a baby is a "threatening intruder."Maddy_K

[QUOTE="Trmpt"]

Link

The only reason abortion should only be even remotely thought of as an option is during a situation where the woman gets raped. This is because if they allow the child to be born, that child is going to grow up a very angry person.

MrGeezer

That's a load of crap. There are all sorts of reasons why a child might be angry at his parents. If abortion is based on a child simply being angry at his/her parents, then we're back to square one, where any woman (at least in the USA) can still get an abortion.

The anti-abortion movement focuses on one thing, the sanctity of human life. And if they are right, that each new life deserves a chance to be born, then that is not affected AT ALL by whether or not the mother was raped.

And if you bring up the standard "rape exception" point about the mother's mental state, then that's still tricky as hell. If she doesn't want to raise the child, can't she just put it up for adoption the same way that anti-abortion advocates think that EVERY OTHER abortion seeker should put their kids up for adoption?

And if abortion is "murder", and rape victims are allowed to "murder" their "children" in order to spare the mother from the emotional trauma of carrying her rapist's child for nine months, then once again we're back to square one. The woman's "feelings" are justification for "murdering" a "person". In which case, we're STILL left with the situation in which it's okay to murder babies as long as the mom has a reason for not wanting it. And if we're going that route, then we're right back to abortions for every woman who wants one.

[QUOTE="effena"]Well, yes it can differ. I live in Canada, and our constitution states that life begins at birth.Canada is one of only three countries that has absolutely no restrictions on abortions.

To me, aborting a fetus hours before birth is murder.To the Canadian government, it's not.

Where life begins is subjective, and that's how the arguments begin.

Minishdriveby

Sadly, most late term abortions in Canada aren't due to the womans health reasons, they are the womans personal choice. Most of the reasons are pretty substantial, such as: the husband/boyfriend becomes abusive, the woman becomes finacialy unstable, the baby has severe health issues,or she was in denial about the pregancy.These reasons do hold some ground, but I don't think these are valid enough to abort a nearly fully developed fetus, and I question my governement for having such liberal abortion laws.