[QUOTE="Stavrogin_"]The only thing that pisses me off about the American government is that they act like they're the goodwill fairy or something, bringing peace and democracy to those who need it. I don't anyone in the world except the American people buys that crap.LJS9502_basicThat isn't why the government does that......:| We are talking about the foreign policy of the US, right?
america is the most hypocritical country in history
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[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Stavrogin_"]The only thing that pisses me off about the American government is that they act like they're the goodwill fairy or something, bringing peace and democracy to those who need it. I don't anyone in the world except the American people buys that crap.Stavrogin_That isn't why the government does that......:| We are talking about the foreign policy of the US, right? Yeah....and it really isn't to spread democracy and we don't believe it is. Just clearing that up for you.....
[QUOTE="Stavrogin_"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Yeah....and it really isn't to spread democracy and we don't believe it is. Just clearing that up for you.....LJS9502_basicThey certainly act that way. I think that falls more under assumption TBH....Don't know, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan so on and so on... Certain statements of various political figures regarding the election rigging in Russia, constant meddling in the business of foreign countries followed with constant blabbing about democracy and freedom. Except if they have certain interests there, if that's the case then suddenly it doesn't matter if that country is a democracy or a dictatorship. I don't think that saying the US is policing the world under the pretense of bringing stability, democracy and peace... is an assumption.
I think that falls more under assumption TBH....Don't know, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan so on and so on... Certain statements of various political figures regarding the election rigging in Russia, constant meddling in the business of foreign countries followed with constant blabbing about democracy and freedom. Except if they have certain interests there, if that's the case then suddenly it doesn't matter if that country is a democracy or a dictatorship. I don't think that saying the US is policing the world under the pretense of bringing stability, democracy and peace... is an assumption.We didn't create the Libyan situation...the Libyans did. As for Iraq and Afghanistan....neither of those occurred to spread democracy. I don't know where you got that.[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Stavrogin_"]They certainly act that way.Stavrogin_
[QUOTE="Stavrogin_"]Don't know, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan so on and so on... Certain statements of various political figures regarding the election rigging in Russia, constant meddling in the business of foreign countries followed with constant blabbing about democracy and freedom. Except if they have certain interests there, if that's the case then suddenly it doesn't matter if that country is a democracy or a dictatorship. I don't think that saying the US is policing the world under the pretense of bringing stability, democracy and peace... is an assumption.We didn't create the Libyan situation...the Libyans did. As for Iraq and Afghanistan....neither of those occurred to spread democracy. I don't know where you got that.Of course you didn't, not saying you did, not the point here. Also didn't Bush himself say, one of the goals of the Iraqi war was to free the Iraqi people from the oppressive regime of Saddam Hussein?[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] I think that falls more under assumption TBH....LJS9502_basic
[QUOTE="Stavrogin_"]Don't know, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan so on and so on... Certain statements of various political figures regarding the election rigging in Russia, constant meddling in the business of foreign countries followed with constant blabbing about democracy and freedom. Except if they have certain interests there, if that's the case then suddenly it doesn't matter if that country is a democracy or a dictatorship. I don't think that saying the US is policing the world under the pretense of bringing stability, democracy and peace... is an assumption.We didn't create the Libyan situation...the Libyans did. As for Iraq and Afghanistan....neither of those occurred to spread democracy. I don't know where you got that. we create every situation we interject our selves into... when we are there that situation we created.[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] I think that falls more under assumption TBH....LJS9502_basic
[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Stavrogin_"]Don't know, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan so on and so on... Certain statements of various political figures regarding the election rigging in Russia, constant meddling in the business of foreign countries followed with constant blabbing about democracy and freedom. Except if they have certain interests there, if that's the case then suddenly it doesn't matter if that country is a democracy or a dictatorship. I don't think that saying the US is policing the world under the pretense of bringing stability, democracy and peace... is an assumption.We didn't create the Libyan situation...the Libyans did. As for Iraq and Afghanistan....neither of those occurred to spread democracy. I don't know where you got that.Of course you didn't, not saying you did, not the point here. Also didn't Bush himself say, one of the goals of the Iraqi war was to free the Iraqi people from the oppressive regime of Saddam Hussein? That wasn't one of the goals....if the US was hell bent on creating democracy everywhere we'd be fighting in a lot of countries we have no interest in. It's the interests within that creates the reason.....and world democracy isn't one of them.Stavrogin_
Of course you didn't, not saying you did, not the point here. Also didn't Bush himself say, one of the goals of the Iraqi war was to free the Iraqi people from the oppressive regime of Saddam Hussein? That wasn't one of the goals....if the US was hell bent on creating democracy everywhere we'd be fighting in a lot of countries we have no interest in. It's the interests within that creates the reason.....and world democracy isn't one of them.Well, there you have it, that's the hypocrisy right there. And yes, Bush himself had said several times that he wanted to liberate the Iraqi people and stabilize the region.[QUOTE="Stavrogin_"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]We didn't create the Libyan situation...the Libyans did. As for Iraq and Afghanistan....neither of those occurred to spread democracy. I don't know where you got that.LJS9502_basic
That wasn't one of the goals....if the US was hell bent on creating democracy everywhere we'd be fighting in a lot of countries we have no interest in. It's the interests within that creates the reason.....and world democracy isn't one of them.Well, there you have it, that's the hypocrisy right there. And yes, Bush himself had said several times that he wanted to liberate the Iraqi people and stabilize the region. That's not hypocrisy since I've told you several times we don't engage over democracy. As with EVERY OTHER country we do what is in our best interests. Your country is no different. And I don't care what Bush said. Congress did not declare war because we wanted to create a democratic Iraq. Nonetheless, your original post said that was why we fight....it's not....and that we believe that reason....we don't. Your initial assumptions was false.....[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]
[QUOTE="Stavrogin_"]Of course you didn't, not saying you did, not the point here. Also didn't Bush himself say, one of the goals of the Iraqi war was to free the Iraqi people from the oppressive regime of Saddam Hussein?Stavrogin_
That wasn't one of the goals....if the US was hell bent on creating democracy everywhere we'd be fighting in a lot of countries we have no interest in. It's the interests within that creates the reason.....and world democracy isn't one of them.[QUOTE="Stavrogin_"]Of course you didn't, not saying you did, not the point here. Also didn't Bush himself say, one of the goals of the Iraqi war was to free the Iraqi people from the oppressive regime of Saddam Hussein?LJS9502_basic
Of course the US has its own interests in mind (like every country), but the whole spreading democracy and the whole "we're doing all this for the people" crap comes from the government's PR team. I can only hear that so many times in the media before I start to find it obnoxious.
That wasn't one of the goals....if the US was hell bent on creating democracy everywhere we'd be fighting in a lot of countries we have no interest in. It's the interests within that creates the reason.....and world democracy isn't one of them.[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]
[QUOTE="Stavrogin_"]Of course you didn't, not saying you did, not the point here. Also didn't Bush himself say, one of the goals of the Iraqi war was to free the Iraqi people from the oppressive regime of Saddam Hussein?one_plum
Of course the US has its own interests in mind (like every country), but the whole spreading democracy and the whole "we're doing all this for the people" crap comes from the government's PR team. I can only hear that so many times in the media before I start to find it obnoxious.
I recall the Iraq War beginning and no where was it stated we wanted democracy.The only thing that pisses me off about the American government is that they act like they're the goodwill fairy or something, bringing peace and democracy to those who need it. I don't anyone in the world except the American people buys that crap.Stavrogin_You can't bring democracy to the middle east, silly. Everyone knows that.
[QUOTE="Stavrogin_"]Well, there you have it, that's the hypocrisy right there. And yes, Bush himself had said several times that he wanted to liberate the Iraqi people and stabilize the region. That's not hypocrisy since I've told you several times we don't engage over democracy. As with EVERY OTHER country we do what is in our best interests. Your country is no different. And I don't care what Bush said. Congress did not declare war because we wanted to create a democratic Iraq. Nonetheless, your original post said that was why we fight....it's not....and that we believe that reason....we don't. Your initial assumptions was false.....You've gotten the wrong impression here. I never tried to defend my or any other country, they're all the same. All fighting for their interests, that's true. The only difference between the US and most other countries is that the US always act like they're the good guys. If you think that American politicians don't blabber constanly about democracy and freedom to other countries, then you have no clue about US foreign policy. Figures, since you're American yourself, your prime concern is domestic policy, nothing wrong about that.[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] That wasn't one of the goals....if the US was hell bent on creating democracy everywhere we'd be fighting in a lot of countries we have no interest in. It's the interests within that creates the reason.....and world democracy isn't one of them.
LJS9502_basic
Yes, WMDs were the official excuse for the Iraqi war, but Bush, the president of the United States of America, himself, has said several times, on different media, that this war will liberate the Iraqi people from the opressive regime of Hussein and stabilize the region. US politicians constantly talk about bringing democracy and toppling dictators except if the country in question is their ally, then it doesn't matter. And that's the hypocrisy right there.
That's not hypocrisy since I've told you several times we don't engage over democracy. As with EVERY OTHER country we do what is in our best interests. Your country is no different. And I don't care what Bush said. Congress did not declare war because we wanted to create a democratic Iraq. Nonetheless, your original post said that was why we fight....it's not....and that we believe that reason....we don't. Your initial assumptions was false.....You've gotten the wrong impression here. I never tried to defend my or any other country, they're all the same. All fighting for their interests, that's true. The only difference between the US and most other countries is that the US always act like they're the good guys. If you think that American politicians don't blabber constanly about democracy and freedom to other countries, then you have no clue about US foreign policy. Figures, since you're American yourself, your prime concern is domestic policy, nothing wrong about that.[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Stavrogin_"]Well, there you have it, that's the hypocrisy right there. And yes, Bush himself had said several times that he wanted to liberate the Iraqi people and stabilize the region.
Stavrogin_
Yes, WMDs were the official excuse for the Iraqi war, but Bush, the president of the United States of America, himself, has said several times, on different media, that this war will liberate the Iraqi people from the opressive regime of Hussein and stabilize the region. US politicians constantly talk about bringing democracy and toppling dictators except if the country in question is their ally, then it doesn't matter. And that's the hypocrisy right there.
Most, if not all countries paint themselves as the good guys. Not sure why you make that distinction. Again what Bush said is immaterial.....it's not the reason CONGRESS declared war. I thought you were familiar with our system.[QUOTE="Stavrogin_"]You've gotten the wrong impression here. I never tried to defend my or any other country, they're all the same. All fighting for their interests, that's true. The only difference between the US and most other countries is that the US always act like they're the good guys. If you think that American politicians don't blabber constanly about democracy and freedom to other countries, then you have no clue about US foreign policy. Figures, since you're American yourself, your prime concern is domestic policy, nothing wrong about that.[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] That's not hypocrisy since I've told you several times we don't engage over democracy. As with EVERY OTHER country we do what is in our best interests. Your country is no different. And I don't care what Bush said. Congress did not declare war because we wanted to create a democratic Iraq. Nonetheless, your original post said that was why we fight....it's not....and that we believe that reason....we don't. Your initial assumptions was false.....LJS9502_basic
Yes, WMDs were the official excuse for the Iraqi war, but Bush, the president of the United States of America, himself, has said several times, on different media, that this war will liberate the Iraqi people from the opressive regime of Hussein and stabilize the region. US politicians constantly talk about bringing democracy and toppling dictators except if the country in question is their ally, then it doesn't matter. And that's the hypocrisy right there.
Most, if not all countries paint themselves as the good guys. Not sure why you make that distinction. Again what Bush said is immaterial.....it's not the reason CONGRESS declared war. I thought you were familiar with our system.We're talking about two different things here. I'm only talking about the picture the US government is trying to paint in the media.[QUOTE="one_plum"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]
That wasn't one of the goals....if the US was hell bent on creating democracy everywhere we'd be fighting in a lot of countries we have no interest in. It's the interests within that creates the reason.....and world democracy isn't one of them.
LJS9502_basic
Of course the US has its own interests in mind (like every country), but the whole spreading democracy and the whole "we're doing all this for the people" crap comes from the government's PR team. I can only hear that so many times in the media before I start to find it obnoxious.
I recall the Iraq War beginning and no where was it stated we wanted democracy.When I talk about democracy, that includes the whole concept that they associate with (liberation, freedom and bringing down dictators) to justify their "noble" actions, unless you want to disagree with that.
Here's what I found
http://www.newdemocracyworld.org/old/iraq-js-1.htm
I listened to Bush's speech of link below, I hear lots of words that make their military intervention sound as noble as they can be (I don't know if you get the same vibe). Yes, there was a part where he spoke about defending from terrorists, but they vaguely associate Saddam with terrorists (unrelated to each other) through clever wording, further justifying their military intervention.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJyhqlkaHB0
All countries have self interests. The most important long term US self interest is the promotion of liberal democratic values.
This is why the US will take every opportunity to get that message out.
But short term broader self interests means that often choices are made that appear wrong or in conflict with the primary long term self interest.
Some view that as hypocrisy. I view it as perfectly natural balancing of short term and long term interests. It is not possible to stay strictly within the long term values in an imperfect world and wasting your strength on tilting at windmills is dangerous foreign policy. Indeed, many who view this as just hypocrisy are incredibly naive, IMO.
Chile is fantastic example of this. Perfectly sound argument that US actions at the time of the Allende regime were incongruent with stated US values. Yet here we are today, so I would ask in whose favour did it eventually turn out to be and therefore who gets the last laugh?
[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Stavrogin_"]You've gotten the wrong impression here. I never tried to defend my or any other country, they're all the same. All fighting for their interests, that's true. The only difference between the US and most other countries is that the US always act like they're the good guys. If you think that American politicians don't blabber constanly about democracy and freedom to other countries, then you have no clue about US foreign policy. Figures, since you're American yourself, your prime concern is domestic policy, nothing wrong about that.Most, if not all countries paint themselves as the good guys. Not sure why you make that distinction. Again what Bush said is immaterial.....it's not the reason CONGRESS declared war. I thought you were familiar with our system.We're talking about two different things here. I'm only talking about the picture the US government is trying to paint in the media.Then I can only tell you that your premise was faulty on it's merits.Yes, WMDs were the official excuse for the Iraqi war, but Bush, the president of the United States of America, himself, has said several times, on different media, that this war will liberate the Iraqi people from the opressive regime of Hussein and stabilize the region. US politicians constantly talk about bringing democracy and toppling dictators except if the country in question is their ally, then it doesn't matter. And that's the hypocrisy right there.
Stavrogin_
Then I can only tell you that your premise was faulty on it's merits.LJS9502_basic:lol: You never quit, do you?
Eh, what's the point, we'll never agree on anything anyway...
So, the point the video in the OP is making is, as I see it, the USA govt is hypocritical because it calls on govts of Syria, Libya and other repressive regimes to not suppress their population with violence, while at the same time allowing the police to crack down on OWS.
Allow me to provide a possible counter view.
In countries like Syria, Libya, et al, there is no means for a citizen to protest their govt without being immediately in violation of the state's rules.
In the USA, if you follow the rules we've put in place, you can reserve a public space for your event, hold your event, and say what's on your mind.
While we have freedom of speech in the USA, that does not translate in to a right to occupy the public spaces for your own purposes, at the expense of all the other citizenry that also have a right to access to the public spaces. Consequently we've put some rules in place to allow freedom of speech while still enabling the maintenance of public order.
To equate the unleashing of the military to use violence to quash any demonstration against the govt, with a local police force finally, after numerous weeks of tolerating lawless disregard for public order, enforcing the duly enacted laws designed to maintain equal access to the public spaces by all the citizenry, is a pretty ridiculous argument.
So, the point the video in the OP is making is, as I see it, the USA govt is hypocritical because it calls on govts of Syria, Libya and other repressive regimes to not suppress their population with violence, while at the same time allowing the police to crack down on OWS.
Allow me to provide a possible counter view.
In countries like Syria, Libya, et al, there is no means for a citizen to protest their govt without being immediately in violation of the state's rules.
In the USA, if you follow the rules we've put in place, you can reserve a public space for your event, hold your event, and say what's on your mind.
While we have freedom of speech in the USA, that does not translate in to a right to occupy the public spaces for your own purposes, at the expense of all the other citizenry that also have a right to access to the public spaces. Consequently we've put some rules in place to allow freedom of speech while still enabling the maintenance of public order.
To equate the unleashing of the military to use violence to quash any demonstration against the govt, with a local police force finally, after numerous weeks of tolerating lawless disregard for public order, enforcing the duly enacted laws designed to maintain equal access to the public spaces by all the citizenry, is a pretty ridiculous argument.
Very well put. You can protest the government and its policies in the US without being declared public enemy number one and arrested. If you go out and start smashing store fronts or illegally squatting on private property, then yes, you can be arrested for that.[QUOTE="spazzx625"]You just love making dumb anti-US threads, don't you.HFkami
racist
Yeah he totally--- WAIT! WHAT?!, Did you just call him a racist?! How can what he said be in ANY way, shape, form, liquid, gas, be racist?!You just love making dumb anti-US threads, don't you.spazzx625
racist
Yeah he totally--- WAIT! WHAT?!, Did you just call him a racist?! How can what he said be in ANY way, shape, form, liquid, gas, be racist?! Don't forget plasma, and Bose-Einstein condensate...That video was a bit over-dramatic. It's not like they are openly being fired upon with live ammunition or anything, they are being pepper sprayed, beat with batons, threatened, and thrown to the ground. Is a lot of what's happening to them unjustified? Of course and I don't agree with it at all but it's not like police brutality just started happening yesterday.
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