American Atheists sue over ground zero cross.

Somebody call the waaahmbulance.

It's in the memorial museum, it's not hurting anybody. It's not indoctrinating people as they walk through the door.

[QUOTE="Planet_Pluto"]

Just so I understand what you are saying, had people from "all faiths" happened to have been there, and all were represented in the museum, then it would be ok.

But the fact that certain religious people were there, while others were not, means we should white-wash away the presense of the ones that were there?

Also, I don't think it's been implied anywhere that any other religious artifacts, symobls, people that were present during that time are being 'held back.' Of course, I've only read a few articles about this whole thing.

nintendofreak_2

I'm not saying any are. I'm saying that if they had photos of a religious group assisting with the clean up and they chose to hold those photos back while representing other groups, then that's an issue.

[QUOTE="00-Riddick-00"]

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"] Dont forget the Christian extremists who gun down innocent children.realguitarhero5

[QUOTE="Planet_Pluto"]

Just so I understand what you are saying, had people from "all faiths" happened to have been there, and all were represented in the museum, then it would be ok.

But the fact that certain religious people were there, while others were not, means we should white-wash away the presense of the ones that were there?

Also, I don't think it's been implied anywhere that any other religious artifacts, symobls, people that were present during that time are being 'held back.' Of course, I've only read a few articles about this whole thing.

nintendofreak_2

I'm not saying any are. I'm saying that if they had photos of a religious group assisting with the clean up and they chose to hold those photos back while representing other groups, then that's an issue.

[QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

[QUOTE="Planet_Pluto"]

While I understand the differences, part of this arguement reminds me of the arguements going on a few years back, when somewhere in the city (or was it NJ?) when a local municipality wanted to commission a statue depicting the photo above.

The plan was to bring the photo to life via a bronze statue, trying to make it as accurate as possible.

However, since the picture consists only of three white males, all sorts of lawsuits were filed claiming various forms of 'discrimination.' (Now that I think about it, I'll have to try and find out what ultimately happened).

In any event, what is the point of History in general, if we are going to change it "willy-nilly."....?

Planet_Pluto

Wow. That's ridiculous. Making a big deal out of them being white males is actually "discrimination". Why should there skin color and gender matter in this case if that's the race/gender that was there?

9/11 happened.

The buildings came down.

During the immediate aftermath these two intersecting structural steel members were found.

To SOME of the people working there, it provided much needed inspiration.

Images of it and stories about it were in news broadcasts and printed pages all over the country (possibly around the world).

A decade later it is put in a museum.

I fail to see the 'offense' in all of this really.

^^this^^ atheists are taking this way too far

It seems pretty simple if it's a public museum, it needs to be removed. Seperation of church and state and all that.

If it's private, then whatever.

But people are seriously stupid, a cross is a commonly occurring shape, especially in a building where beams cross each other literally hundreds of thousands of times. One survived? It's a miracle!!! No you're stupid, and should use some common sense.

They are using wreckage. Period.LJS9502_basic

That's just silly however they should probably put a star of david there too.markop2003

[QUOTE="nintendofreak_2"]

[QUOTE="Planet_Pluto"]

Just so I understand what you are saying, had people from "all faiths" happened to have been there, and all were represented in the museum, then it would be ok.

But the fact that certain religious people were there, while others were not, means we should white-wash away the presense of the ones that were there?

Also, I don't think it's been implied anywhere that any other religious artifacts, symobls, people that were present during that time are being 'held back.' Of course, I've only read a few articles about this whole thing.

LJS9502_basic

I'm not saying any are. I'm saying that if they had photos of a religious group assisting with the clean up and they chose to hold those photos back while representing other groups, then that's an issue.

yeah those american atheists are so whiny, don't they know that christianity has special privileges in this country? the people of that religion are entitled to see just a christian symbol in a public space. the first ammendment of the constitution is very clear on this.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="nintendofreak_2"]...No. The religions that were there need to be represented. I see no reason to represent faiths of people who were no involved in the incident or the clean up, just as I wouldn't expect my name to be put on an eventual Operation War on Terror memorial.

I'm not saying any are. I'm saying that if they had photos of a religious group assisting with the clean up and they chose to hold those photos back while representing other groups, then that's an issue.

EntropyWins

Can't believe I just wasted my time reading through 11 pages of this drivel. Just let it be and SUCK IT UP.

[QUOTE="00-Riddick-00"]

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"] Dont forget the Christian extremists who gun down innocent children.realguitarhero5

Hmm, I seem to recall a Christian extremist murdering around 80 people in Norway about a week ago.

[QUOTE="realguitarhero5"][QUOTE="00-Riddick-00"] :lol: what? :lol:

worlock77

Hmm, I seem to recall a Christian extremist murdering around 80 people in Norway about a week ago.

He wasn't a Christian extremist

[QUOTE="EntropyWins"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]They are using wreckage. Period.LJS9502_basic

Ulterior motives my ass. That thing has been recognized as the "9/11 cross" for 10 years now. You know full and well that if somebody hadn't looked at it and thought "gee, that looks like a cross" it would have ended up as scrap along with most of the rest of the WTC wreckage. And you know full and well it's only being put in the museum for that reason. Now I don't necessarily have a problem with that, but let's not be dishonest here. They did not choose to put that in the museum just because it was wreckage from the World Trade Center.

[QUOTE="Mordred19"]

yeah those american atheists are so whiny, don't they know that christianity has special privileges in this country? the people of that religion are entitled to see just a christian symbol in a public space. the first ammendment of the constitution is very clear on this.

[/QUOTE

The Holocaust Museum says hi.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="EntropyWins"] oversimplification, ftw! worlock77

Ulterior motives my ass. That thing has been recognized as the "9/11 cross" for 10 years now. You know full and well that if somebody hadn't looked at it and thought "gee, that looks like a cross" it would have ended up as scrap along with most of the rest of the WTC wreckage. And you know full and well it's only being put in the museum for that reason. Now I don't necessarily have a problem with that, but let's not be dishonest here. They did not choose to put that in the museum just because it was wreckage from the World Trade Center.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="realguitarhero5"]Urr I'm not familiar with those people.... explain?ScottMescudi

Hmm, I seem to recall a Christian extremist murdering around 80 people in Norway about a week ago.

He wasn't a Christian extremist

Of course, I forgot: when a Muslim commits a henious act it's an act of Muslim extremism. When a Christian does likewise it's just a psychopath.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="EntropyWins"] oversimplification, ftw! worlock77

Ulterior motives my ass. That thing has been recognized as the "9/11 cross" for 10 years now. You know full and well that if somebody hadn't looked at it and thought "gee, that looks like a cross" it would have ended up as scrap along with most of the rest of the WTC wreckage. And you know full and well it's only being put in the museum for that reason. Now I don't necessarily have a problem with that, but let's not be dishonest here. They did not choose to put that in the museum just because it was wreckage from the World Trade Center.

Yes, they did. It appeared in news broadcast across the globe and was a very popular symbol, especially to some of the people that worked there. So why would this PIECE OF HISTORY not be put in a museum?

[QUOTE="ScottMescudi"]

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

Hmm, I seem to recall a Christian extremist murdering around 80 people in Norway about a week ago.

worlock77

He wasn't a Christian extremist

Of course, I forgot: when a Muslim commits a henious act it's an act of Muslim extremism. When a Christian does likewise it's just a psychopath.

[QUOTE="ScottMescudi"]

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

Hmm, I seem to recall a Christian extremist murdering around 80 people in Norway about a week ago.

worlock77

He wasn't a Christian extremist

Of course, I forgot: when a Muslim commits a henious act it's an act of Muslim extremism. When a Christian does likewise it's just a psychopath.

[QUOTE="ScottMescudi"]

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

Hmm, I seem to recall a Christian extremist murdering around 80 people in Norway about a week ago.

worlock77

He wasn't a Christian extremist

Of course, I forgot: when a Muslim commits a henious act it's an act of Muslim extremism. When a Christian does likewise it's just a psychopath.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="ScottMescudi"]

He wasn't a Christian extremist

LJS9502_basic

Of course, I forgot: when a Muslim commits a henious act it's an act of Muslim extremism. When a Christian does likewise it's just a psychopath.

Right, he's only stated that his aim is to "preserve a Christian Europe"

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Better than reading ulterior motives into it....;)

SpartanMSU

Ulterior motives my ass. That thing has been recognized as the "9/11 cross" for 10 years now. You know full and well that if somebody hadn't looked at it and thought "gee, that looks like a cross" it would have ended up as scrap along with most of the rest of the WTC wreckage. And you know full and well it's only being put in the museum for that reason. Now I don't necessarily have a problem with that, but let's not be dishonest here. They did not choose to put that in the museum just because it was wreckage from the World Trade Center.

Yes, they did. It appeared in news broadcast across the globe and was a very popular symbol, especially to some of the people that worked there. So why would this PIECE OF HISTORY not be put in a museum?

I'm not arguing that it shouldn't and if you'd actually read my posts you'd realize that.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="worlock77"]

Of course, I forgot: when a Muslim commits a henious act it's an act of Muslim extremism. When a Christian does likewise it's just a psychopath.

worlock77

Right, he's only stated that his aim is to "preserve a Christian Europe"

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="ScottMescudi"]

He wasn't a Christian extremist

ScottMescudi

Of course, I forgot: when a Muslim commits a henious act it's an act of Muslim extremism. When a Christian does likewise it's just a psychopath.

im a christian, and when i have the urge to murder someone, i dont plan on doing in the name of jesus.

The way I see it, there's only one real solution to this. Since the suit will go away if every victim's religion is represented equally, and since the 9/11 Cross is already in the museum, then the victims' families should donate symbols of their faiths in order to dispell the controversy. A prayer rug for the Islamic faith, traditional religious garb for the Hindus, a spaghetti strainer for the atheists... viola! Problem solved.

[QUOTE="ScottMescudi"][QUOTE="worlock77"]

Of course, I forgot: when a Muslim commits a henious act it's an act of Muslim extremism. When a Christian does likewise it's just a psychopath.

tocool340

I favor seperation of church and state, so I support the suit. It lends credence to the whole '9/11-as-holy-war' argument. donalbane

"It just so happens that the WTC was made out of T-joints and they found a T-joint," Silverman said. "They put it in the church, kept in the church for years, prayed over it, blessed it. You don't get to do that just in the coincidence that your icon looks like a T-joint."

I thought that was pretty funny. In regards to the suit, I think its ridiculous. It may be a good idea to have more religious artifacts, but this isnt something to start controversy over. If Atheists wanna be taken more seriously they cant act like a**hats. BTW, I am Atheist.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] The killings in Norway were not done by a Christian ideology. It's disingenuous to associate it as such.LJS9502_basic

Right, he's only stated that his aim is to "preserve a Christian Europe"

Anyone who supports this is a moron. People are just really overly sensitive. Not offensive at alland if you find it to beoffensiveimho you are really pathetic.I'm not religous at all and it's just a scheme to get attention and should never be an issue. But america is about holding hands and being politically correct instead of telling people to shove it up there @$$. Boo hoo :cry: :roll: /rant

He was a Christian and not mentally ill. Ergo he committed a terrorist act and if you read international responses, nearly all leaders of nations around the world, condemned it as a terrorist act. End of story.m25105

I don't think anyone's denying that it was a terrorist attack...

Figures an atheist group would complain over something so trivial as this.

I'm spiritual and believe in God but I don't believe in organized religion. I also hate when people try to push religion onto you but I have no problem with this as I don't see it as pushing it on me. Pushing it on me would be to say that I have to adopt their ways. If atheists want to put up a picture of the flag or an atom, whatever, go for it. I don't think the mosque should go there though.

Gotta wonder what they've done if they had found an inverted cross. Wouldn't it be the same to let it there out of respect to satanists? :Pkuraimen

To be honest it all boils down to this: If it's not negatively affecting you, why should you care?

That's why I don't care.

so just out of curiosity how many believe the cross was evidence of god inspiring people during 9/11 and how many believe it was evidence that god hates the usa and wanted us to know he was helping terrorists?

it's kinda a 50/50 chance for either right?

[QUOTE="tocool340"][QUOTE="ScottMescudi"] Still doesn't mean he's a Christian extremist when he, himself isn't a Christian!realguitarhero5

[QUOTE="realguitarhero5"]

[QUOTE="tocool340"] Huh? I could have sworn I read that he, himself, has said he was a right-wing Christian. Or something like that...Nibroc420

[QUOTE="donalbane"]I favor seperation of church and state, so I support the suit. It lends credence to the whole '9/11-as-holy-war' argument. scorch-62

[QUOTE="scorch-62"][QUOTE="donalbane"]I favor seperation of church and state, so I support the suit. It lends credence to the whole '9/11-as-holy-war' argument. donalbane

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="realguitarhero5"]He only considers himself a Christian because he was born into a "Christian" family. I doubt he has ever had a serious thought or gone to Church on any days other than Christmas or Easter. Not to mention he's crazy and a psychopath when he shoots 80 people, but what he says is suddenly valid when he says he is a Christian?

alexside1

Religion invloves plenty of subjectivity. A dragon...well it's not that hard to figure out if one is a dragon, obviously.

[QUOTE="donalbane"][QUOTE="scorch-62"] Then get all of the Jewish items out of the Holocaust Museum.taterfrickintot

[QUOTE="realguitarhero5"]

[QUOTE="tocool340"] Huh? I could have sworn I read that he, himself, has said he was a right-wing Christian. Or something like that...Nibroc420

so just out of curiosity how many believe the cross was evidence of god inspiring people during 9/11 and how many believe it was evidence that god hates the usa and wanted us to know he was helping terrorists?

it's kinda a 50/50 chance for either right?

Riverwolf007

Or maybe the fact that our buildings are build out of a series of 90 degree angles is going to result in a metric asston of arbitrary cross shapes... shapes that do little more than reveal the viewer's perspective.