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Mr_Sesshomaru

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#1 Mr_Sesshomaru
Member since 2003 • 1790 Posts

I found this bit pretty interesting.

http://www.rationalresponders.com/am_i_agnostic_or_atheist

"But you still seek some sort of middle ground, right? Something between theism and rejection of theism. Well relax, because the atheism IS your middle ground. "A-theism"' implies everything that a rational doubter means when he declares himself an 'agnostic', for while it's a common misperception that atheism implies a denial or rejection or active disbelief in the very possibility of a god, this is not so. In fact, we require a special term for those those who hold to such beliefs: "Strong Atheism". The rest of us doubters simply don't hold the belief... we're all atheists, whether we are doubters or outright rejectors of theism. So the missing 'middle ground' that you are looking for, rational tentativeness, is already included within the term 'atheism'.

So what does the word "agnostic" actually mean and how ought we use it? Notice the 'a' in front. 'Agnosticism' is a position counter to gnosticism. And what is gnosticism? It's the belief that a human being can possess knowledge about a god. It's an epistemological term - about the possibility of knowledge in regard to 'god' claims - and not a statement about matters of belief. 'Agnostics' hold to the epistemological position that human beings can't actually know anything about something beyond nature, something theists call 'supernatural'. So they believe that there's no way for a human to know anything about a 'god'. But there are many theists who agree!

Theists can be be agnostics! In fact, many theists say that they hold to their god belief on faith because they agree that we humans can't know things about the supernatural, or 'god'. Some very famous theologians have agreed that man is limited and that this means that man cannot have 'god knowledge". The list of theologians would include people like Martin Luther or Soren Kierkegaard. So when one says that they are an 'agnostic' and they mean a 'doubter', they are really saying that they are agnostic atheists. So if you find that this describes your own 'agnosticism', welcome to atheism!"

Does this change your views on agnosticism?

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domatron23

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#2 domatron23
Member since 2007 • 6226 Posts

Well my position is that I do not know anything about God but I believe that he does not exist. So in terms of belief I'm a strong atheist but in terms of epistemology I'm an agnostic.

I think most of the controversy over this topic simply comes from not seperating belief and knowledge. For example some definitions of strong atheism entail knowledge that God does not exist but I disagree with that understanding of it.

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mattyftm

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#3 mattyftm
Member since 2005 • 7306 Posts
It's impossible to sum up someones religious beliefs in one word. Words like "Atheist" and "Agnostic" simply aren't descritive enough, and can also have varying definitions, making them pretty much useless.
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Dark_Knight6

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#4 Dark_Knight6
Member since 2006 • 16619 Posts
I guess that would best describe me. I don't know...:?
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quiglythegreat

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#5 quiglythegreat
Member since 2006 • 16886 Posts
uh. I believe in some kind of divinity. it'd take a while to explain.
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Mr_Sesshomaru

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#6 Mr_Sesshomaru
Member since 2003 • 1790 Posts

Well my position is that I do not know anything about God but I believe that he does not exist. So in terms of belief I'm a strong atheist but in terms of epistemology I'm an agnostic.

I think most of the controversy over this topic simply comes from not seperating belief and knowledge. Some definitions of strong atheism entail knowledge that God does not exist but I disagree with that munderstanding of it.

domatron23
I think most atheists (and many theists) are agnostic as well, but they don't know it or find it unnecessary to say "agnostic atheist", etc. And almost all people who say they are just "agnostic" are actually atheists.
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Hewkii

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#7 Hewkii
Member since 2006 • 26339 Posts
Agnostics are too indecisive. I don't like them.
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MindFreeze

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#8 MindFreeze
Member since 2007 • 2814 Posts
Nearly everyone is agnostic, except the riduculously strong believers of either side.
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Mr_Sesshomaru

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#9 Mr_Sesshomaru
Member since 2003 • 1790 Posts
Nearly everyone is agnostic, except the riduculously strong believers of either side.MindFreeze
I agree. A lot of people misinterpret "agnostic" as "I don't know", which just isn't the case. But, from what I can tell, many people who say they are "just agnostic" are truely atheists.
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Blood-Scribe

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#10 Blood-Scribe
Member since 2007 • 6465 Posts

I really don't know if I would be considered agnostic, or some sort of derivative of it. Though I don't really like the idea of having to attribute my line of thinking to a set of standards that I don't find to be concise and accurate in accordance to myself, hence I can't really say as to what I should be considered to be.

But basically my line of thinking is that I haven't found a belief or set of beliefs that I can agree with, so I don't really have any beliefs. I feel as though that from what I've seen regarding that issue, it seems as though they all tend to be a little too solipsistic and audacious for my tastes, and I simply cannot abide by that since it conflicts with the way that I perceive things.

Anyway, I don't really feel like elaborating on it right now, and I'm working on a new sig in photoshop, so if someone actually wants to hear what I have to say, then I might explain it all later.

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Mr_Sesshomaru

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#11 Mr_Sesshomaru
Member since 2003 • 1790 Posts

I really don't know if I would be considered agnostic, or some sort of derivative of it. Though I don't really like the idea of having to attribute my line of thinking to a set of standards that I don't find to be concise and accurate in accordance to myself, hence I can't really say as to what I should be considered to be.

But basically my line of thinking is that I haven't found a belief or set of beliefs that I can agree with, so I don't really have any beliefs. I feel as though that from what I've seen regarding that issue, it seems as though they all tend to be a little too solipsistic and audacious for my tastes, and I simply cannot abide by that since it conflicts with the way that I perceive things.

Anyway, I don't really feel like elaborating on it right now, and I'm working on a new sig in photoshop, so if someone actually wants to hear what I have to say, then I might explain it all later.

Blood-Scribe
I would like to hear when you get finished. But judging from what your post says, I think you would be categorized as a weak atheist.
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domatron23

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#12 domatron23
Member since 2007 • 6226 Posts
[QUOTE="domatron23"]

Well my position is that I do not know anything about God but I believe that he does not exist. So in terms of belief I'm a strong atheist but in terms of epistemology I'm an agnostic.

I think most of the controversy over this topic simply comes from not seperating belief and knowledge. Some definitions of strong atheism entail knowledge that God does not exist but I disagree with that munderstanding of it.

Mr_Sesshomaru

I think most atheists (and many theists) are agnostic as well, but they don't know it or find it unnecessary to say "agnostic atheist", etc. And almost all people who say they are just "agnostic" are actually atheists.

Well I think it's unneccesary to state that you're an agnostic (in terms of epistemology) because quite frankly that should just be a given. It really burns my ass when people say "I know God doesn't exist" or "I know God exists".....HOW, how could you possibly know that???

I think that a description of ones religious affiliations should be confined to ones beliefs not ones knowledge.

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Mr_Sesshomaru

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#13 Mr_Sesshomaru
Member since 2003 • 1790 Posts

Well I think it's unneccesary to state that you're an agnostic (in terms of epistemology) because quite frankly that should just be a given. It really burns my ass when people say "I know God doesn't exist" or "I know God exists".....HOW, how could you possibly know that???

I think that a description of ones religious affiliations should be confined to ones beliefs not ones knowledge.

domatron23
I've met many people who claim to know. For most people, though, I do agree that it is unnecessary. This topic was targetted to those who claim to be just agnostic, which is misused quite oftenh.
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EquiIibrium

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#14 EquiIibrium
Member since 2008 • 303 Posts

Strong Agnostic is where i fit. Like I said in the topic about believing in god, wether a god/deity exists is a question debated much but one that won't be answered. (or known)

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domatron23

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#15 domatron23
Member since 2007 • 6226 Posts
[QUOTE="domatron23"]

Well I think it's unneccesary to state that you're an agnostic (in terms of epistemology) because quite frankly that should just be a given. It really burns my ass when people say "I know God doesn't exist" or "I know God exists".....HOW, how could you possibly know that???

I think that a description of ones religious affiliations should be confined to ones beliefs not ones knowledge.

Mr_Sesshomaru

I've met many people who claim to know. For most people, though, I do agree that it is unnecessary. This topic was targetted to those who claim to be just agnostic, which is misused quite oftenh.

I just don't understand those people.

Anyways I sometimes interpret agnosticism to mean that the evidence for God and the evidence against God are equally strong. In that case being agnostic would just mean that your beliefs do not come down on either side of the fence.

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ab-1205

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#16 ab-1205
Member since 2008 • 77 Posts

Atheist doesn't reject the existence of God (well I guess radical atheism does), atheism is "the disbelief in God"

Agnosticism means that you cannot prove nor disprove God. Therefore, you can be an agnostic atheist.

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Mr_Sesshomaru

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#17 Mr_Sesshomaru
Member since 2003 • 1790 Posts
I just don't understand those people.

Anyways I sometimes interpret agnosticism to mean that the evidence for God and the evidence against God are equally strong. In that case being agnostic would just mean that your beliefs do not come down on either side of the fence.

domatron23
I try to use the literal definition, which is "the belief that it's impossible to know about the existence of God". Most people would agree that it is impossible to know, but most people don't realize the definition of agnosticism.
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domatron23

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#18 domatron23
Member since 2007 • 6226 Posts

Atheist doesn't reject the existence of God (well I guess radical atheism does), atheism is "the disbelief in God"

Agnosticism means that you cannot prove nor disprove God. Therefore, you can be an agnostic atheist.

ab-1205

I think you've gotta distinguish between strong atheism and weak atheism. The former does reject the existence of God but it's by no means radical. More like affirmative.

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rockguy92

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#19 rockguy92
Member since 2007 • 21559 Posts
No, I'm not.
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The_One_White

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#20 The_One_White
Member since 2006 • 1417 Posts
I believe that there must be some form of being greater (in some aspects) than ourselves, but I don't like the concept of religion and the thought that anyone if guiding us and I don't think they are an omnipotent being. So I don't know what I am...
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helium_flash

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#21 helium_flash
Member since 2007 • 9244 Posts
I knew that I was an agnostic atheist prior to that article. Too bad more people aren't agnostic.
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foxhound_fox

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#22 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts
Even though more complicated, the theist/atheist + agnostic/gnostic definitions of belief are more logically sound than the theist/agnostic/atheist definitions. Agnosticism isn't a belief, you cannot "believe" you have no knowledge. It doesn't actually address a belief, just a lack of knowledge... there needs to be more to what defines your belief than just a lack of knowledge.

In this video, they discuss this problem with "agnosticism" and address it quite well. I like this show, it's fantastic.
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Mr_Sesshomaru

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#23 Mr_Sesshomaru
Member since 2003 • 1790 Posts

I knew that I was an agnostic atheist prior to that article. Too bad more people aren't agnostic.helium_flash

Most people ARE agnostic, they just don't have the correct definition.

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dracula_16

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#24 dracula_16
Member since 2005 • 16530 Posts
All of us are agnostic by that definition. I believe that someone who chooses to be agnostic for life is just too afraid to say what they really believe.
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MattUD1

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#25 MattUD1
Member since 2004 • 20715 Posts
I'm an agnostic atheist. Already was before I read that.
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DeeJayInphinity

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#26 DeeJayInphinity
Member since 2004 • 13415 Posts
I'm an agnostic atheist. Already was before I read that.MattUD1
Same here. :)
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foxhound_fox

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#27 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts
All of us are agnostic by that definition. I believe that someone who chooses to be agnostic for life is just too afraid to say what they really believe. dracula_16

Or doesn't fully understand the meaning behind the term "atheism."
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Blood-Scribe

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#28 Blood-Scribe
Member since 2007 • 6465 Posts
[QUOTE="Blood-Scribe"]

I really don't know if I would be considered agnostic, or some sort of derivative of it. Though I don't really like the idea of having to attribute my line of thinking to a set of standards that I don't find to be concise and accurate in accordance to myself, hence I can't really say as to what I should be considered to be.

But basically my line of thinking is that I haven't found a belief or set of beliefs that I can agree with, so I don't really have any beliefs. I feel as though that from what I've seen regarding that issue, it seems as though they all tend to be a little too solipsistic and audacious for my tastes, and I simply cannot abide by that since it conflicts with the way that I perceive things.

Anyway, I don't really feel like elaborating on it right now, and I'm working on a new sig in photoshop, so if someone actually wants to hear what I have to say, then I might explain it all later.

Mr_Sesshomaru

I would like to hear when you get finished. But judging from what your post says, I think you would be categorized as a weak atheist.

Eh, screw it, I'll finish my photoshop project later.

Anyway, the way I see it, since I haven't found a belief or set of beliefs that does not entail an apparent yet shaky sense of certainty, I am left with none, and I have since discarded what I used to believe in after realizing a fault that I noticed. By definition, a belief would mean that you find some sort of occurrence, idea, or set of standards to be a given truth, but my view is that I find it highly doubtful that something can be regarded as such by human standards, and ultimately, through human-derived senses and perceptions. So my problem is that believing in things, or more rather, what I've seen from the beliefs that I have been presented with, is that the certainty and conviction of them is rather doubtful in my eyes, and I'd even say that I find it to be flat-out audacious to say that we as human beings can be so unreliant on the misgivings of our perceptions and methods regarding scrutiny, to the point where we can draw a conclusion that something can be regarded as truthful for all given sets of instances and standards, and agreeable for all sentient beings that can come to comprehend what's being examined.

Though that's not to say that my previous statements were ultimately truthful, as they are merely my interpretation of how beliefs work as statements and conjectures regarding truths. But then again, what's to say that anything can really be regarded as truth? Humans have long since debated as to what's truthful and what's not truthful, and it's hard to really disambiguate the two and actually come to an agreement since there's another problem with the way that humans conceive, perceive, and convey ideas (or maybe I'm the only one with a flawed perception of things, but whatever. As far as I can tell, I don't think that it's possible for me to see things other than the way that I do. I don't think it would be tenable to say that I can view things through a consciousness other than my own, hence I end up with a huge factor of doubt regarding truths, beliefs, or what have you. So then that means that our methods of communication are rather limited, and are usually highly susceptible to varied interpretations and understandings, which leaves too much room for misunderstanding. So then I feel that ideas and views cannot be truly conveyed through words and body-language alone, and to really get down to how someone can come to their views regarding life and just how they think, one would have to be telepathic, but even then, it would not be completely synonymous with what the original thought was, as the receiver is not the sender, and probably never will be, so then I don't think it's possible to completely understand a person, their ideas, or why they think the way they do. So then to say that you can be in complete agreement with someone else's beliefs, or to say that your belief is truthful, or that anything can really be truthful, seems to be hindered by the fact that you can only be yourself, hence I'm quite incredulous to someone who says that they believe in something because it's the truth

So then because of that, I have a hard time trying to find a statement that I can agree with to the point of which it can be assessed and attributed as being true, applicable to an understanding of the implications of existence and its tenants, and agreeable for all beings that can interpret it as such. So basically the way that I scrutinize ideas and beliefs and my interpretations of them come to fault due to the way that I think. By that virtue alone, it's possible that I won't be able to find a belief or set of beliefs that I can apply myself to, so I'm not so sure I can be categorized as an agnostic, or weak atheist, or whatever.

Even with everything that's been stated, I don't feel as though I can give a comprehensive sense of understanding as to what I'm trying to convey. I just don't know how to explain it completely, and I doubt I really can do it. But whatever the case, that's what I have to say here.

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ab-1205

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#29 ab-1205
Member since 2008 • 77 Posts
[QUOTE="ab-1205"]

Atheist doesn't reject the existence of God (well I guess radical atheism does), atheism is "the disbelief in God"

Agnosticism means that you cannot prove nor disprove God. Therefore, you can be an agnostic atheist.

domatron23

I think you've gotta distinguish between strong atheism and weak atheism. The former does reject the existence of God but it's by no means radical. More like affirmative.

Depends on the definition of God then. When talking about a Personal God, aka Abrahamic God, then I'm a strong atheist. But when concerning a paranormal entity, I guess I'm a weak atheist (and this entity has NOTHING to do with religion, moreso goes with Deism)

Mind you, our Founding Fathers were deists/agnostics.

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Skylarkell

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#30 Skylarkell
Member since 2007 • 2797 Posts

I guess I am.

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Theokhoth

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#31 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts

Depends on how you define "agnostic." Under some definitions, every human on Earth is agnostic.

Oh, and citing the RRS = fail on every conceivable level.

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jakecufc8888

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#32 jakecufc8888
Member since 2006 • 2381 Posts
Well I'm an agnostic atheist, so no.
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deactivated-5a79221380856

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#33 deactivated-5a79221380856
Member since 2007 • 13125 Posts
I'm a weak atheist. I considered myself an agnostic a week ago.
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Mr_Sesshomaru

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#34 Mr_Sesshomaru
Member since 2003 • 1790 Posts

Depends on how you define "agnostic." Under some definitions, every human on Earth is agnostic.

Oh, and citing the RRS = fail on every conceivable level.

Theokhoth

Not every human. I know some who believe they know for sure, which would not make them agnostic. Perhaps you mean every sensible human on Earth is agnostic? That is probably true, but what I'm getting at is most people misunderstand what agnostic means.

I wasn't really citing it and giving it as proof. I just found that article on another forum I go to. I hadn't even been to that website previously. But with their slogan, I imagined it wasn't a top notch source, but what the article says is true none-the-less.

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domatron23

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#35 domatron23
Member since 2007 • 6226 Posts

I'm a weak atheist. I considered myself an agnostic a week ago.Genetic_Code

What happened to make you change? The supernatural flying crocodile?

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Vaasman

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#36 Vaasman
Member since 2008 • 15874 Posts

Agnostic here, I already knew what it meant to be Agnostic, this didn't really change anything.

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Mr_Sesshomaru

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#37 Mr_Sesshomaru
Member since 2003 • 1790 Posts

Agnostic here, I already knew what it meant to be Agnostic, this didn't really change anything.

Vaasman
I'm just curious, how would you answer this question: "Do you believe in god(s)?"
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mistervengeance

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#38 mistervengeance
Member since 2006 • 6769 Posts

i would say that it's impossible to prove or disprove that a god exists.

now i myself default to not believing, because that's what i believe the default is.

intelligent theists believe that it's impossible to prove or disprove a god, but they still believe.

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Theokhoth

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#39 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts
[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Depends on how you define "agnostic." Under some definitions, every human on Earth is agnostic.

Oh, and citing the RRS = fail on every conceivable level.

Mr_Sesshomaru

Not every human. I know some who believe they know for sure, which would not make them agnostic. Perhaps you mean every sensible human on Earth is agnostic? That is probably true, but what I'm getting at is most people misunderstand what agnostic means.

I wasn't really citing it and giving it as proof. I just found that article on another forum I go to. I hadn't even been to that website previously. But with their slogan, I imagined it wasn't a top notch source, but what the article says is true none-the-less.

The source isn't "not top notch" because of their slogan; it's "not top notch" because that group is the Westboro Baptist Church of atheism, literally trying to have Theism listed as a mental disorder in the DSM of psychology.

In short, they're a bunch of uneducated asshats.

I disagree with their article in any case, but I don't have time to lay out a huge response.

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deactivated-5a79221380856

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#40 deactivated-5a79221380856
Member since 2007 • 13125 Posts

[QUOTE="Genetic_Code"]I'm a weak atheist. I considered myself an agnostic a week ago.domatron23

What happened to make you change? The supernatural flying crocodile?

:) Pretty much.

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btaylor2404

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#41 btaylor2404
Member since 2003 • 11353 Posts
It didn't really change my wording of my beliefs either way. I don't believe in God, but I still read about and try to learn about several religions. I try to keep an open mind, even though it's been 14 years or so since I stopped believing.
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Mr_Sesshomaru

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#43 Mr_Sesshomaru
Member since 2003 • 1790 Posts
It didn't really change my wording of my beliefs either way. I don't believe in God, but I still read about and try to learn about several religions. I try to keep an open mind, even though it's been 14 years or so since I stopped believing.btaylor2404
What is the "wording" of your beliefs?
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Funky_Llama

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#44 Funky_Llama
Member since 2006 • 18428 Posts
I do not know anything about God but I do not believe that he exists. Classify that as you will.
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deactivated-5e836a855beb2

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#45 deactivated-5e836a855beb2
Member since 2005 • 95573 Posts
I dislike your poll and refuse to view the results or vote.
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Hewkii

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#46 Hewkii
Member since 2006 • 26339 Posts

I dislike your poll and refuse to view the results or vote.Jandurin

I usually do that anyway.

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Mr_Sesshomaru

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#47 Mr_Sesshomaru
Member since 2003 • 1790 Posts
I dislike your poll and refuse to view the results or vote.Jandurin
Why do you dislike my poll?
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tony2077ca

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#48 tony2077ca
Member since 2005 • 5242 Posts
I'm still agnostic
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btaylor2404

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#49 btaylor2404
Member since 2003 • 11353 Posts

[QUOTE="btaylor2404"]It didn't really change my wording of my beliefs either way. I don't believe in God, but I still read about and try to learn about several religions. I try to keep an open mind, even though it's been 14 years or so since I stopped believing.Mr_Sesshomaru
What is the "wording" of your beliefs?

Agnostic or Atheist. Since I don't believe in God, I say Atheist. I do have a curiosity about almost all religions, but that's all it is.

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foxhound_fox

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#50 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts
If you don't directly believe in a God or gods you are termed an "a-theist," someone "without God." Whether or not you say you "know" it is a sure thing or not is irrelevant. Theism/atheism is the belief you hold and gnosticism/agnosticism is the state of your "knowledge" about that belief. There can be no "middle ground" between theism and atheism; if you don't actually believe in a God or gods, you are "atheist." You must believe that a God or gods by any definition exist/s in order to be termed a "theist"... otherwise, you are just "atheist." Whether or not you know that for sure doesn't matter.

That is my attempt at simplifiying the OP.