Aren't we just really intelligent, less hairy apes?

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Vesica_Prime

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#51 Vesica_Prime
Member since 2009 • 7062 Posts



[QUOTE="JuiceCakeOoh"]If you think about it, we are all just that.Palantas


You mean if I put as much thought into it as you did.

Do animals have war? Do they have governments? If I can make an analogy of something, does that mean the analogy and the object of my analogy are identical?



Chimpanzees fight rival chimpanzee groups over land, ants and bees have monarchy-like governments.

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Palantas

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#52 Palantas
Member since 2002 • 15329 Posts

The more developed primates have both wars and governments in very primitive forms.

Danm_999

I'm not going to take your word for it. Let's see some examples.

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gamerguru100

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#53 gamerguru100
Member since 2009 • 12718 Posts

I suppose.

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Vesica_Prime

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#54 Vesica_Prime
Member since 2009 • 7062 Posts

[QUOTE="Danm_999"]

The more developed primates have both wars and governments in very primitive forms.

Palantas

I'm not going to take your word for it. Let's see some examples.

http://hubpages.com/hub/Intelligent_Ants

http://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822%2810%2900459-8#Summary

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2010/06/21/chimpanzees-murder-for-land/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/jun/21/chimpanzees-territory-killing-neighbours

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Danm_999

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#55 Danm_999
Member since 2003 • 13924 Posts

[QUOTE="Palantas"]

[QUOTE="Danm_999"]

The more developed primates have both wars and governments in very primitive forms.

Vesica_Prime

I'm not going to take your word for it. Let's see some examples.

http://hubpages.com/hub/Intelligent_Ants

http://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822%2810%2900459-8#Summary

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2010/06/21/chimpanzees-murder-for-land/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/jun/21/chimpanzees-territory-killing-neighbours

You saved me some time. :P
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lamprey263

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#56 lamprey263
Member since 2006 • 45469 Posts
there was video of all nuclear weapons tests, goes all the way up to the late 90s I think, anyhow, it's a map and it lights up every time a bomb is detonated, and different colors light up for different countries... anyhow, my friend showed that to me and the comment I made to him after watching it was it reminded me of gorillas beating their chests, whenever one country went testing crazy it'd escalate and the other country would do the same, it's kind of a long video to watch but there's times in this video you'll see what I mean
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LoG-Sacrament

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#57 LoG-Sacrament
Member since 2006 • 20397 Posts
well, intelligent relative to the apes
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__Chris__

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#58 __Chris__
Member since 2006 • 535 Posts

well, intelligent relative to the apesLoG-Sacrament

And what are we relatively stupid to then?

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Palantas

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#59 Palantas
Member since 2002 • 15329 Posts

[QUOTE="Vesica_Prime"]

http://hubpages.com/hub/Intelligent_Ants

http://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822%2810%2900459-8#Summary

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2010/06/21/chimpanzees-murder-for-land/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/jun/21/chimpanzees-territory-killing-neighbours

Danm_999

You saved me some time. :P

Let's put the "government" part on the backburner for now. In all the examples you gave there, animals--as a group--killed other animals and then expanded onto their land. Is this how you would define warfare, then?

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Fundai

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#60 Fundai
Member since 2010 • 6120 Posts

Being a practising Catholic, I believe that we are more than just apes.

But being a terrible realist, i admit that though we are more than apes, and seem to be smarter than apes, we have less commonsense than apes.

We tend to Overstate our position in the universe, and tend not to realize that we are really quite stupid. Termites build bigger, more complexbuildings (porportionaly) than we do, and yetthey have no leaders, no governments, and a brain about the size of a needle head.

Yes, we are self aware, but we are also the only species to have the Cabability for complete and total self destruction.

We think that every thing we do is going to have a negativeeffect on the planet, because we are so selfimportant, and don't realize that any species doing any thing will affect the planet.

We over think things. Most of us can not realize that we will never understand everything, and need to find a simple answer to everything.

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heysharpshooter

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#61 heysharpshooter
Member since 2009 • 6348 Posts

[QUOTE="Danm_999"]

[QUOTE="Vesica_Prime"]

http://hubpages.com/hub/Intelligent_Ants

http://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822%2810%2900459-8#Summary

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2010/06/21/chimpanzees-murder-for-land/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/jun/21/chimpanzees-territory-killing-neighbours

Palantas

You saved me some time. :P

Let's put the "government" part on the backburner for now. In all the examples you gave there, animals--as a group--killed other animals and then expanded onto their land. Is this how you would define warfare, then?

Its the #1 reason war was commited before Christianity... and even after, it was one of the primary reasons for war...

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kev_stevens67

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#62 kev_stevens67
Member since 2010 • 616 Posts

If you think about it, we are all just that. People often forget that, and make things more complicated than they need to be. War, for example is really just a bunch of rival ape families fighting over bannanas. The same could be said for politics. The apes with no bannanas will always want to take from the apes that do, this is why governments were formed. JuiceCakeOoh

Hey! Who are you calling 'Less Hairy'!? :evil:

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UT_Wrestler

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#63 UT_Wrestler
Member since 2004 • 16426 Posts
Apes are related to us in the same way that a fox is related to a hyena. But we aren't the same, we can't climb trees effortlessly the way they can, and they can't solve complex math problems as we can.
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Danm_999

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#64 Danm_999
Member since 2003 • 13924 Posts

Let's put the "government" part on the backburner for now. In all the examples you gave there, animals--as a group--killed other animals and then expanded onto their land. Is this how you would define warfare, then?

Palantas

More or less. Usually warfare is carried out by rival nations for territory or resources, but I think under looser definitions chimpanzees, for example, killing each other for territory, and even using weapons to kill smaller animals, fits if you give it a qualifier like "primitive".

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jshaas

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#65 jshaas
Member since 2003 • 2411 Posts
[QUOTE="QWERTYCommander"]Well, if evolution is correct, we were apes.darkspineslayer
Common misconseption caused by poor wording, we're still those same apes. its not like we split off from another species, we've evolved from another group of monkeys that obviously aren't around anymore

Then why aren't our current populations of monkeys evolving into more sophisticated beings? If we're so close to the Chimp (98% of DNA shared), then I would assume that we evolved from them... if evolution is correct. So, if evolution is correct and we did evolve from the Chimp... then why do they still carry on, not evolving into more humans?
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Danm_999

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#66 Danm_999
Member since 2003 • 13924 Posts
[QUOTE="jshaas"] Then why aren't our current populations of monkeys evolving into more sophisticated beings? If we're so close to the Chimp (98% of DNA shared), then I would assume that we evolved from them... if evolution is correct. So, if evolution is correct and we did evolve from the Chimp... then why do they still carry on, not evolving into more humans?

Significant evolution takes millions of years. We've been recording history for what, 3000 years at most?
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heysharpshooter

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#67 heysharpshooter
Member since 2009 • 6348 Posts

[QUOTE="darkspineslayer"][QUOTE="QWERTYCommander"]Well, if evolution is correct, we were apes.jshaas
Common misconseption caused by poor wording, we're still those same apes. its not like we split off from another species, we've evolved from another group of monkeys that obviously aren't around anymore

Then why aren't our current populations of monkeys evolving into more sophisticated beings? If we're so close to the Chimp (98% of DNA shared), then I would assume that we evolved from them... if evolution is correct. So, if evolution is correct and we did evolve from the Chimp... then why do they still carry on, not evolving into more humans?

Lol... we didn't evolve from chimps, silly rabbit... we both came from the same genus, seperated by millions of years of evolution...

And who says they are not evolving... its an incredibly slow process, one not easily observed...

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UT_Wrestler

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#68 UT_Wrestler
Member since 2004 • 16426 Posts
I know that many of you aren't religious and may not understand this, but I firmly believe that we were created to be part animal and part divine. We have basic animalistic needs and instincts, but at the same time we have intelligence and problem solving skills far beyond even the most intelligent non-human creature which was given to us by our creator.
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Palantas

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#69 Palantas
Member since 2002 • 15329 Posts

Its the #1 reason war was commited before Christianity... and even after, it was one of the primary reasons for war...

heysharpshooter

That's not what I asked. All the examples you gave were of animals kiling other animals, then expanding into their land. Let's replace "animals" with "people." Warfare: People killing other people and taking their land. Do you believe this is an accurate definition of warfare?

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Danm_999

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#70 Danm_999
Member since 2003 • 13924 Posts

People killing other people and taking their land. Do you believe this is an accurate definition of warfare?

Palantas

At base I'd say that's a very acceptable definition, yes.

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LORD_BLACKGULT

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#71 LORD_BLACKGULT
Member since 2006 • 947 Posts

Apes are related to us in the same way that a fox is related to a hyena. But we aren't the same, we can't climb trees effortlessly the way they can, and they can't solve complex math problems as we can.UT_Wrestler

"we can't climb trees effortlessly"

Actually, that's a bad example :P .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55i2QJSf0tA&feature=related(there may be better videos)

A tree would be easy for that guy. :o

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heysharpshooter

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#72 heysharpshooter
Member since 2009 • 6348 Posts

[QUOTE="heysharpshooter"]

Its the #1 reason war was commited before Christianity... and even after, it was one of the primary reasons for war...

Palantas

That's not what I asked. All the examples you gave were of animals kiling other animals, then expanding into their land. Let's replace "animals" with "people." Warfare: People killing other people and taking their land. Do you believe this is an accurate definition of warfare?

h

Warfare can be described as two groups of people(who are animals) fighting and killing each other... almost all animals do this, for various reasons, the number 1 reason being the taking of territory and the resources that come with it...

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Fundai

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#73 Fundai
Member since 2010 • 6120 Posts

there was video of all nuclear weapons tests, goes all the way up to the late 90s I think, anyhow, it's a map and it lights up every time a bomb is detonated, and different colors light up for different countries... anyhow, my friend showed that to me and the comment I made to him after watching it was it reminded me of gorillas beating their chests, whenever one country went testing crazy it'd escalate and the other country would do the same, it's kind of a long video to watch but there's times in this video you'll see what I meanlamprey263

Thanks for the video, very interesting. This shows my point.

If weresmart(or stupid)enough to make something powefrul enough to extinct the human race,we can't have common sense

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LoG-Sacrament

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#74 LoG-Sacrament
Member since 2006 • 20397 Posts

[QUOTE="LoG-Sacrament"]well, intelligent relative to the apes__Chris__

And what are we relatively stupid to then?

id take it as a sign of progress if we were less violent and could feed our populations better. those ms. america contenders are on to something.
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jshaas

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#75 jshaas
Member since 2003 • 2411 Posts

[QUOTE="jshaas"][QUOTE="darkspineslayer"] Common misconseption caused by poor wording, we're still those same apes. its not like we split off from another species, we've evolved from another group of monkeys that obviously aren't around anymoreheysharpshooter

Then why aren't our current populations of monkeys evolving into more sophisticated beings? If we're so close to the Chimp (98% of DNA shared), then I would assume that we evolved from them... if evolution is correct. So, if evolution is correct and we did evolve from the Chimp... then why do they still carry on, not evolving into more humans?

Lol... we didn't evolve from chimps, silly rabbit... we both came from the same genus, seperated by millions of years of evolution...

And who says they are not evolving... its an incredibly slow process, one not easily observed...

Hmmm. If we've only been recording history for the last 3000 or so years as Danm_999 stated, then how do we know what happened to some monkeys millions of years ago. And you're also telling me that with all the advancements in technology and science we can't find a way to speed up the process? I believe that humans have evolved... we went from walking to riding horses to carriages to cars to planes, etc. But, I also believe we've always been human.
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Fundai

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#76 Fundai
Member since 2010 • 6120 Posts

I know that many of you aren't religious and may not understand this, but I firmly believe that we were created to be part animal and part divine. We have basic animalistic needs and instincts, but at the same time we have intelligence and problem solving skills far beyond even the most intelligent non-human creature which was given to us by our creator.UT_Wrestler

As a Catholic, I agree, we are something special, and God made us to do somthing special. We are different from otheranimals.

But i'm pretty sure we've forgotten what that special thing is.

Sure were intelligent, but our intelligence mixed with our LACK of common sense is the most dangerous thing.

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ColonelWilks

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#77 ColonelWilks
Member since 2005 • 3149 Posts

[QUOTE="heysharpshooter"]

[QUOTE="jshaas"] Then why aren't our current populations of monkeys evolving into more sophisticated beings? If we're so close to the Chimp (98% of DNA shared), then I would assume that we evolved from them... if evolution is correct. So, if evolution is correct and we did evolve from the Chimp... then why do they still carry on, not evolving into more humans?jshaas

Lol... we didn't evolve from chimps, silly rabbit... we both came from the same genus, seperated by millions of years of evolution...

And who says they are not evolving... its an incredibly slow process, one not easily observed...

Hmmm. If we've only been recording history for the last 3000 or so years as Danm_999 stated, then how do we know what happened to some monkeys millions of years ago. And you're also telling me that with all the advancements in technology and science we can't find a way to speed up the process? I believe that humans have evolved... we went from walking to riding horses to carriages to cars to planes, etc. But, I also believe we've always been human.

We have sped up the process. Look at viruses that become immune to our most-used vaccines and countermeasures. That's beneficial adaptation (beneficial for the virus), and therefore evolution.

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XileLord

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#78 XileLord
Member since 2007 • 3776 Posts

If you think about it, we are all just that. People often forget that, and make things more complicated than they need to be. War, for example is really just a bunch of rival ape families fighting over bannanas. The same could be said for politics. The apes with no bannanas will always want to take from the apes that do, this is why governments were formed. JuiceCakeOoh
Pretty much

but then you're forgetting about the apes who don't want to admit they are apes and would rather believe they were created by some intelligent invisible guy in the sky. It's understandable though because who wants to be a evolved ape?

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heysharpshooter

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#79 heysharpshooter
Member since 2009 • 6348 Posts

[QUOTE="heysharpshooter"]

[QUOTE="jshaas"] Then why aren't our current populations of monkeys evolving into more sophisticated beings? If we're so close to the Chimp (98% of DNA shared), then I would assume that we evolved from them... if evolution is correct. So, if evolution is correct and we did evolve from the Chimp... then why do they still carry on, not evolving into more humans?jshaas

Lol... we didn't evolve from chimps, silly rabbit... we both came from the same genus, seperated by millions of years of evolution...

And who says they are not evolving... its an incredibly slow process, one not easily observed...

Hmmm. If we've only been recording history for the last 3000 or so years as Danm_999 stated, then how do we know what happened to some monkeys millions of years ago. And you're also telling me that with all the advancements in technology and science we can't find a way to speed up the process? I believe that humans have evolved... we went from walking to riding horses to carriages to cars to planes, etc. But, I also believe we've always been human.

We know we are evolved from the same genus because of genetics... if you go far back enough, both humans and chimps evolved from the same ancestor, and at some point we split in out evolutionary paths... being able to record history has little to do with that...

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supergoat777

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#80 supergoat777
Member since 2010 • 1470 Posts

If you think about it, we are all just that. People often forget that, and make things more complicated than they need to be. War, for example is really just a bunch of rival ape families fighting over bannanas. The same could be said for politics. The apes with no bannanas will always want to take from the apes that do, this is why governments were formed. JuiceCakeOoh

yep.

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wstfld

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#82 wstfld
Member since 2008 • 6375 Posts

Apes are related to us in the same way that a fox is related to a hyena. But we aren't the same, we can't climb trees effortlessly the way they can, and they can't solve complex math problems as we can.UT_Wrestler
I found out this week that hyenas are actually in the cat family. Just passing along a fun fact.

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Palantas

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#83 Palantas
Member since 2002 • 15329 Posts

Warfare can be described as two groups of people(who are animals) fighting and killing each other... almost all animals do this, for various reasons, the number 1 reason being the taking of territory and the resources that come with it...

heysharpshooter

[QUOTE="I"]People killing other people and taking their land. Do you believe this is an accurate definition of warfare?Danm_999

At base I'd say that's a very acceptable definition, yes.

That's something that happens in warfare, but that's not a definition of warfare. Even as a description, it's an over simplification. Defeated populations in war are either penalized, either monetarily or through some other political consequence, or they become conquered, governed by their former enemies. Very rarely is it the case that someone is just killed, and their land taken.

Warfare is part of the political process, where one organized body attempts to influence another through the use of force. The objectives of war can be tangible things like land or resources, or they can be entirely intangible. Wars can be fought over ideals, like competing philosophical systems (one of your mentioned Christianity earlier), or as a consequence of a treaty, supporting someone else's war.

War is intrinsically linked to politics. Earlier, someone said that animals have war, but not government, which I didn't think made any sense; one is an extention of the other. The fact that animals kill each other and do so in a cooperative fashion does not mean they conduct warfare. Even the sources you provided acknowledge this:

Human warfare is a heterogeneous phenomenon that varies with respect to who participates, what is involved, and why it occurs. Because of this, whether chimpanzee intergroup aggression can be employed to provide insights into the origins and causes of warfare is likely to remain moot.Cell dot com

Even so, Mitani is very careful about drawing an analogy between chimp and human aggression, given the myriad of reasons that humans have for waging war.Guardian dot couk

If you want to identify warfare as a trait common to animals and man, fine, but at least do so with a solid definition of warfare.

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heysharpshooter

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#84 heysharpshooter
Member since 2009 • 6348 Posts

That's something that happens in warfare, but that's not a definition of warfare. Even as a description, it's an over simplification. Defeated populations in war are either penalized, either monetarily or through some other political consequence, or they become conquered, governed by their former enemies. Very rarely is it the case that someone is just killed, and their land taken.

Warfare is part of the political process, where one organized body attempts to influence another through the use of force. The objectives of war can be tangible things like land or resources, or they can be entirely intangible. Wars can be fought over ideals, like competing philosophical systems (one of your mentioned Christianity earlier), or as a consequence of a treaty, supporting someone else's war.

War is intrinsically linked to politics. Earlier, someone said that animals have war, but not government, which I didn't think made any sense; one is an extention of the other. The fact that animals kill each other and do so in a cooperative fashion does not mean they conduct warfare. Even the sources you provided acknowledge this:

Palantas

Animals fight and kill for a form of political influence as well, just on a smaller scale... a male lion fights ans kills another male for control of breeding rights in the pride, and kills all of the old males cubs to force the females to breed with him... 2 male gorillas will fight for control of the family unit, and sometimes the family unit will split and fight each other for control of thier own territory...

Just because its on a smaller scale doesn't make it any less warlike...

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Palantas

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#85 Palantas
Member since 2002 • 15329 Posts

Just because its on a smaller scale doesn't make it any less warlike...

heysharpshooter

I write all that trying to be informative, and this is the response I get? Warfare is conducted by states (c|assically) or organized bodies, against one another. None of the situations you just described fit a the definition of warfare I explained to you. Two people fighting a duel over "breeding rights" isn't warfare. The issue I was discussing with other two posters in this thread was how the nature of organized animal conflict might differ from human warfare. At least we were on the same page when compared to your lastest post. You've taken this from an issue of animal conflict being war (or not) to behavior that wouldn't be considered warfare even if humans were conducting it.

Shorter version: So if I go kick my neighbor's ass, because I think it'll impress his hot girlfriend, this is warfare? Really?

I took some time to try and explain that warfare isn't just people fighting (and it's definitely not individuals fighting), and you shoot this back to me as if the explanation never happened. I don't think you're arguing against my definition of warfare (well, it's not my definition), as you reference it in the examples you just gave...but then the examples you just gave don't fit the definition. Is there some miscommunication on my part here?

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Maniacc1

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#86 Maniacc1
Member since 2006 • 5354 Posts
I don't think the "really" in front of the word intelligent can be applied to all people.... :P
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Karnage108

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#87 Karnage108
Member since 2010 • 2595 Posts

That's why it's important to be intelligent :D

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Vesica_Prime

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#88 Vesica_Prime
Member since 2009 • 7062 Posts

[QUOTE="Danm_999"]

[QUOTE="Vesica_Prime"]

http://hubpages.com/hub/Intelligent_Ants

http://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822%2810%2900459-8#Summary

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2010/06/21/chimpanzees-murder-for-land/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/jun/21/chimpanzees-territory-killing-neighbours

Palantas

You saved me some time. :P

Let's put the "government" part on the backburner for now. In all the examples you gave there, animals--as a group--killed other animals and then expanded onto their land. Is this how you would define warfare, then?

Yeah, conquering land for resources. That's one of the reasons why the British created the British Empire.

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zakkro

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#89 zakkro
Member since 2004 • 48823 Posts
Then apes are hairy, not-as-intelligent humans. We're primates, I'll give you that, but you're sort of short-changing both species now.
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Palantas

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#90 Palantas
Member since 2002 • 15329 Posts

Yeah, conquering land for resources. That's one of the reasons why the British created the British Empire.

Vesica_Prime

Read a few posts up.

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m0zart

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#91 m0zart
Member since 2003 • 11580 Posts

Well, if evolution is correct, we were apes.QWERTYCommander

Not exactly. If evolution is correct, then humans and apes have a common ancestor.

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mrbojangles25

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#92 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 60815 Posts

not...even...close.

Humans are, by far, the most unique and amazing animal to ever grace the planet earth. Except for bears

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Barbariser

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#93 Barbariser
Member since 2009 • 6785 Posts

Yes, we can fall under the ape category, being members of the hominidae family.

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svenus97

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#94 svenus97
Member since 2009 • 2318 Posts

Humans are animals anyways :P

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svenus97

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#95 svenus97
Member since 2009 • 2318 Posts
I know that many of you aren't religious and may not understand this, but I firmly believe that we were created to be part animal and part divine. We have basic animalistic needs and instincts, but at the same time we have intelligence and problem solving skills far beyond even the most intelligent non-human creature which was given to us by our creator.UT_Wrestler
Bees can solve complex math problems as good as humans. Link
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shoot-first

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#96 shoot-first
Member since 2004 • 9788 Posts

Good news, everyone! We are a bunch of mindless gorillas.

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MetalGear_Ninty

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#97 MetalGear_Ninty
Member since 2008 • 6337 Posts
Ugh, about 85% of the posts in this thread are completely idiotic.
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ehhwhatever

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#98 ehhwhatever
Member since 2010 • 1463 Posts

No we are human. We drive around in cars burning fossil fuel and basically raping the earth to show our power and that takes intellect. Is there a bad side to intellect? Oh yea.

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frostybanana

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#99 frostybanana
Member since 2010 • 5523 Posts
Having a common ancestor does not mean we ARE apes. Not sure why people don't understand that.
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Danm_999

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#100 Danm_999
Member since 2003 • 13924 Posts

That's something that happens in warfare, but that's not a definition of warfare. Even as a description, it's an over simplification. Palantas

The most basic definition of warfare I can find is fighting between competitors or competing factions which violently oppose each other. You can attribute elements of what commonly happens as a result of warfare (which you do shortly), or how warfare is usually conducted, but that is about the median of warfare, not the definition.

Defeated populations in war are either penalized, either monetarily or through some other political consequence, or they become conquered, governed by their former enemies. Very rarely is it the case that someone is just killed, and their land taken.Palantas

But it DOES happen. Which is why we don't define warfare by what the victor imposes on the vanquished.

Warfare is part of the political process, where one organized body attempts to influence another through the use of force. The objectives of war can be tangible things like land or resources, or they can be entirely intangible. Wars can be fought over ideals, like competing philosophical systems (one of your mentioned Christianity earlier), or as a consequence of a treaty, supporting someone else's war.


War is intrinsically linked to politics. Earlier, someone said that animals have war, but not government, which I didn't think made any sense; one is an extention of the other. The fact that animals kill each other and do so in a cooperative fashion does not mean they conduct warfare. Even the sources you provided acknowledge this:

[quote="Cell dot com"]Human warfare is a heterogeneous phenomenon that varies with respect to who participates, what is involved, and why it occurs. Because of this, whether chimpanzee intergroup aggression can be employed to provide insights into the origins and causes of warfare is likely to remain moot.Palantas

Even so, Mitani is very careful about drawing an analogy between chimp and human aggression, given the myriad of reasons that humans have for waging war.Guardian dot couk

If you want to identify warfare as a trait common to animals and man, fine, but at least do so with a solid definition of warfare.

The rest of your post seems to be a picking of the very advanced, and thus narrow, definitions of warfare, and thus by claiming animals don't serve these definitions of warfare, they cannot serve any definition of warfare. You also seem pleased you can say human and chimpanzee warfare are very different, which I'm not sure many of us would debate.

You're overall point seems to be warfare fundamentally needs to be linked to politics. But you stop short and never consider exactly what politics means; power and governance. Again, chimpanzees, and other primates, do practice power relationships and governance in very basic forms. They have hierarchy, and social dominances; they kill with tools, for material and territorial gain.

If you can't see how that can be defined as warfare, our debate has to shift to semanitcs, rather than sociology and anthropology.