Bible Interpretation, the Big Bang, and Free Will

There have been SO many religion threads out lately, it's insane, so I appologize but I would appreciate the opportunity to post my major views in one post, rather than scatter them across the forums. That being said, I'll begin.

Bible Interpretation: Too many religions are misled into the belief that the bible is black and white, to be taken literally and verbatum. Why would God give us minds capable of challenging and questioning if he wanted us to simply accept that Adam and Eve were actual flesh and blood humans that began our species? Or that, at the end of the world, a seven headed lizard will actually come out of the sea, and the moon will literally turn blood red. I don't think that our current species can hope to begin to unveil the stories underneath the stories that make up the Holy Bible, but I do believe that it is our duty to try. We do only use a very tiny percentage of our mortal minds, perhaps in a later evolutionary state our species will be actually be able to unveil the Bible's many mysteries.

The Big Bang: This is a very plausible theory based on many scientific facts. The more our space program expands, the closer this theory comes to being a fact. What I don't understand is why Athiests use this to disprove the existence of God. Perhaps the Big Bang really did happen, those trillions and trillions of years ago. For a reaction on the scale of the Big Bang, there would have had to been at LEAST two components, or elements if you will (that's a long shot, something on that scale would require more components- but for my purposes of this argument I'll say two). Where did those two components come from? Were they infinate, or were they created? If so by whom? Even if they were infinate, what set them in motion to eventually collide? The Big Bang hardly disproves God's existence, it simply disproves the whole Adam and Eve story, which as I have already said I hardly belive that God's intention was for that fable to be taken literally as historical fact.

Free Will: An issue seems to keep rising in these forums- that of God's supposed "cruelty." It has been posted over and over, "If God is so loving and compassionate, why is there murder, rape, crime, and war? Why doesn't He intervene?" Well, the answer is simple and surfaces in the bible on several occasions. It's called Free Will. God does not work us like puppets. As I have said on several occasions, God left us free to make our world the most prosperous and peaceful place in all of existence. We are as free to hurt and kill as we are to heal and save. Unfortunately, we've all ruined our world. I know (no blasphemy intended) that if I were God, I would have turned my back on this world a long time ago. He, however, has not.

Not even going to bother reading all of those lies.Mutatedbloodelf

Worthless post much?

Not even going to bother reading all of those lies.Mutatedbloodelf

So, may I ask what exactly you think happened? Because, considering how the most accepted views are on there, you don't have much room. Well, unless you believe that flying rhesus monkeys chained hands and became an unltra Transformer that looked like the universe and got stuck.

[QUOTE="RiSkyBiZ-13"]

[QUOTE="Mutatedbloodelf"]Not even going to bother reading all of those lies.Mutatedbloodelf

Worthless post much?

And so now you are calling people posts? I hate cocky fourteen-year-olds.

[QUOTE="RiSkyBiZ-13"]

[QUOTE="Mutatedbloodelf"]Not even going to bother reading all of those lies.Mutatedbloodelf

Worthless post much?

Where are going with this? And as for 'I'm not going to bothe rreading all of those lies' if you would have read the FIRST line I posted they were my own, personal philosophies. How can one's philosophy be a lie? I never said ANYTHING I posed was fact, or even close to it.

[QUOTE="Mutatedbloodelf"]Not even going to bother reading all of those lies.Jaks_Secret

So, may I ask what exactly you think happened? Because, considering how the most accepted views are on there, you don't have much room. Well, unless you believe that flying rhesus monkeys chained hands and became an unltra Transformer that looked like the universe and got stuck.

Where are going with this? And as for 'I'm not going to bothe rreading all of those lies' if you would have read the FIRST line I posted they were my own, personal philosophies. How can one's philosophy be a lie? I never said ANYTHING I posed was fact, or even close to it.RiSkyBiZ-13

[QUOTE="RiSkyBiZ-13"]Where are going with this? And as for 'I'm not going to bothe rreading all of those lies' if you would have read the FIRST line I posted they were my own, personal philosophies. How can one's philosophy be a lie? I never said ANYTHING I posed was fact, or even close to it.foxhound_fox

Internet serious business

The only comment I have is that you refer to the "stories within the stories" and all of the happenings in the bible and what messages God tried to leave us, and, at least it seems, that you refer to the bible as if it were written by God. Do not forget that the bible was written by men and is based on events, prophecies, visions, and several people's stories of being "spoken to". While God could be speaking to people and giving them visions and whatnot, the stories are written by men, and the complexities arecreated by men, not God.

The only comment I have is that you refer to the "stories within the stories" and all of the happenings in the bible and what messages God tried to leave us, and, at least it seems, that you refer to the bible as if it were written by God. Do not forget that the bible was written by men and is based on events, prophecies, visions, and several people's stories of being "spoken to". While God could be speaking to people and giving them visions and whatnot, the stories are written by men, and the complexities arecreated by men, not God.

Thyeora

"The words of the prophets," if you will. Trust me, I struggled with that fact for some time. While I was agnostic, that was one of my greatest arguments (among others). The bible states that everything man made is faulty, but the bible is made by man. It is my personal view that the bible WAS written by BY God, THROUGH men, much as God works through the pope in reguard to the Church.

I respect your beliefs but I dont choose to follow them. Personally, I have no idea what to believe but as far as Im concerned, there may have been an entity that created all and has no further involvement in our existance.

I dont know what that is, but Im not a big fan of religion, although thats what I believe. If anybody knows what thats called, could you let me know please.

If you want to know more then just ask and Ill try to explain.

I respect your beliefs but I dont choose to follow them. Personally, I have no idea what to believe but as far as Im concerned, there may have been an entity that created all and has no further involvement in our existance.

I dont know what that is, but Im not a big fan of religion, although thats what I believe. If anybody knows what thats called, could you let me know please.

If you want to know more then just ask and Ill try to explain.

Shade-Blade

It sounds like you're leaning toward Agnostic. I was Agnostic once as well, it will give you the opportunity to explore all world religions with no bias. Good luck!

[QUOTE="Thyeora"]

The only comment I have is that you refer to the "stories within the stories" and all of the happenings in the bible and what messages God tried to leave us, and, at least it seems, that you refer to the bible as if it were written by God. Do not forget that the bible was written by men and is based on events, prophecies, visions, and several people's stories of being "spoken to". While God could be speaking to people and giving them visions and whatnot, the stories are written by men, and the complexities arecreated by men, not God.

RiSkyBiZ-13

"The words of the prophets," if you will. Trust me, I struggled with that fact for some time. While I was agnostic, that was one of my greatest arguments (among others). The bible states that everything man made is faulty, but the bible is made by man. It is my personal view that the bible WAS written by BY God, THROUGH men, much as God works through the pope in reguard to the Church.

You have a valid point, however, it is inevitable that asome of theinformation is lost in translation due to the time spans between many of the events and their eventual notation. The New Testament for example was written some 200 years after Jesus died, so it cannot be 100% accurate, especially in a time when records were not great. So to an extent the idea that "all things made man are faulty" would be true. Some of the stories within the stories are evident and easily interpreted, but the more complex ones could just as easily be a lack of communication or a loss of data over the years as they are God being complex.

You have a valid point, however, it is inevitable that asome of theinformation is lost in translation due to the time spans between many of the events and their eventual notation. The New Testament for example was written some 200 years after Jesus died, so it cannot be 100% accurate, especially in a time when records were not great. So to an extent the idea that "all things made man are faulty" would be true. Some of the stories within the stories are evident and easily interpreted, but the more complex ones could just as easily be a lack of communication or a loss of data over the years as they are God being complex.

Thyeora

A large chunk of the New Testament was written while Jesus was alive, considering they were written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and so on- his disciples.

Also, as for translation errors, (excuse me if this seems like I'm reaching), but God works in mysterious ways. Perhaps these errors were meant to be, eventually giving us the true, big picture?

The way Christians put free will up on a pedestal is perplexing to me. By giving us free will God is risking a life of eternal damnation for many of his creations. It's like giving a chocolate bar laced with cyanide to a 4 year old. Even if you tell the 4 year old the chocolate is laced with cyanide, more often than not they'll eat the chocolate. Why? Because they probably don't know what cyanide is. Even if they are told very clearly what the poison will do to them ,say through a parental source, they may still take a bite of the chocolate because they either don't believe the deadliness of cyanide or they believe the parental source is making it all up-because let's face it, the chocolate bar looks normal and the 4 year old's never seen anybody be affected by cyanide.

This metaphor comparing the kid and the candy to humans and the choice of embracing God or going to hell clearly illustrates why free will is not a suitable system for an all-knowing, loving god to implement.

Also, why is it that we think we need free will? Are we are using our own capacity of free will to decide that free will is favorable or are we simply trying to be happy with what we think we have? Why is free will superior to anything else?

How could a perfect, all-knowing, all loving deity have made and implemented such an ill conceived system ?

This brings us to one of two conclusions, either this deity is all-knowing but not all loving and wants some of us to suffer or this deity is loving but just dumb and short sighted. Neither of these figures fit what is described in the Bible or any other religious text that I know of.

The way Christians put free will up on a pedestal is perplexing to me. By giving us free will God is risking a life of eternal damnation for many of his creations. It's like giving a chocolate bar laced with cyanide to a 4 year old. Even if you tell the 4 year old the chocolate is laced with cyanide, more often than not they'll eat the chocolate. Why? Because they probably don't know what cyanide is. Even if they are told very clearly what the poison will do to them ,say through a parental source, they may still take a bite of the chocolate because they either don't believe the deadliness of cyanide or they believe the parental source is making it all up-because let's face it, the chocolate bar looks normal and the 4 year old's never seen anybody be affected by cyanide.

This metaphor comparing the kid and the candy to humans and the choice of embracing God or going to hell clearly illustrates why free will is not a suitable system for an all-knowing, loving god to implement.

Also, why is it that we think we need free will? Are we are using our own capacity of free will to decide that free will is favorable or are we simply trying to be happy with what we think we have? Why is free will superior to anything else?

How could a perfect, all-knowing, all loving deity have made and implemented such an ill conceived system ?

This brings us to one of two conclusions, either this deity is all-knowing but not all loving and wants some of us to suffer or this deity is loving but just dumb and short sighted. Neither of these figures fit what is described in the Bible or any other religious text that I know of.

espoac

Without Free Will, we would be robots in no control of our actions. Our Free Will is a test to get to heaven. We know the 10 Commandements, they're pretty simple and to the point. Do what's right, go to heaven. Do wrong, go to hell. We're free to choose.

[QUOTE="Mutatedbloodelf"]Not even going to bother reading all of those lies.RiSkyBiZ-13

Worthless post much?

The way Christians put free will up on a pedestal is perplexing to me. By giving us free will God is risking a life of eternal damnation for many of his creations. It's like giving a chocolate bar laced with cyanide to a 4 year old. Even if you tell the 4 year old the chocolate is laced with cyanide, more often than not they'll eat the chocolate. Why? Because they probably don't know what cyanide is. Even if they are told very clearly what the poison will do to them ,say through a parental source, they may still take a bite of the chocolate because they either don't believe the deadliness of cyanide or they believe the parental source is making it all up-because let's face it, the chocolate bar looks normal and the 4 year old's never seen anybody be affected by cyanide.

This metaphor comparing the kid and the candy to humans and the choice of embracing God or going to hell clearly illustrates why free will is not a suitable system for an all-knowing, loving god to implement.

Also, why is it that we think we need free will? Are we are using our own capacity of free will to decide that free will is favorable or are we simply trying to be happy with what we think we have? Why is free will superior to anything else?

How could a perfect, all-knowing, all loving deity have made and implemented such an ill conceived system ?

This brings us to one of two conclusions, either this deity is all-knowing but not all loving and wants some of us to suffer or this deity is loving but just dumb and short sighted. Neither of these figures fit what is described in the Bible or any other religious text that I know of.

espoac

Wow logic and offtopic don't usually fit together very well. Especially when it comes to Religious issues. Btw, I completely agree.

Whether you are theist or athiest, you have to believe there was something that existed before time even began.

Nice, informative post detailing your side. Its a shame that most religion threads don't generate anything other than "lolz gods not real", but this is a good one...that being said, I still take issue with a part of it.

Interpretation of The Bible is tricky business...when we truly had no means to learn otherwise, most people probably truly did think that Adam & Eve were the first humans, and that the world is but 6000 years old. Now that things like this can be disproved, people are nowtaking parts of The Bible symbolically and allegorically. If we'd never been able to learn otherwise, I don't doubt we would not be doing that. It basically means that The Bible can be molded to fit any scenario where inconsistincies may show up.

So if The Bible can be twisted to fit anything modern humanity takes issue with, then really, what value does the book still have?

There are lots of good morals and interesting stories to be taken from The Bible...it'd be shame if it all became worthless.

Nice, informative post detailing your side. Its a shame that most religion threads don't generate anything other than "lolz gods not real", but this is a good one...that being said, I still take issue with a part of it.

Interpretation of The Bible is tricky business...when we truly had no means to learn otherwise, most people probably truly did think that Adam & Eve were the first humans, and that the world is but 6000 years old. Now that things like this can be disproved, people are nowtaking parts of The Bible symbolically and allegorically. If we'd never been able to learn otherwise, I don't doubt we would not be doing that. It basically means that The Bible can be molded to fit any scenario where inconsistincies may show up.

So if The Bible can be twisted to fit anything modern humanity takes issue with, then really, what value does the book still have?

There are lots of good morals and interesting stories to be taken from The Bible...it'd be shame if it all became worthless.

Fortier

Well, like I said, I don't think it's possible for our motal mind at this evolutionary state (using this tiny percentage of our brains) will be able to completely and fully grasp the full picture, but like I said, I still believe it's a Christian's duty to try. To challenge and question things so they can find answers for themselves.

[QUOTE="espoac"]

The way Christians put free will up on a pedestal is perplexing to me. By giving us free will God is risking a life of eternal damnation for many of his creations. It's like giving a chocolate bar laced with cyanide to a 4 year old. Even if you tell the 4 year old the chocolate is laced with cyanide, more often than not they'll eat the chocolate. Why? Because they probably don't know what cyanide is. Even if they are told very clearly what the poison will do to them ,say through a parental source, they may still take a bite of the chocolate because they either don't believe the deadliness of cyanide or they believe the parental source is making it all up-because let's face it, the chocolate bar looks normal and the 4 year old's never seen anybody be affected by cyanide.

This metaphor comparing the kid and the candy to humans and the choice of embracing God or going to hell clearly illustrates why free will is not a suitable system for an all-knowing, loving god to implement.

Also, why is it that we think we need free will? Are we are using our own capacity of free will to decide that free will is favorable or are we simply trying to be happy with what we think we have? Why is free will superior to anything else?

How could a perfect, all-knowing, all loving deity have made and implemented such an ill conceived system ?

This brings us to one of two conclusions, either this deity is all-knowing but not all loving and wants some of us to suffer or this deity is loving but just dumb and short sighted. Neither of these figures fit what is described in the Bible or any other religious text that I know of.

RiSkyBiZ-13

Without Free Will, we would be robots in no control of our actions. Our Free Will is a test to get to heaven. We know the 10 Commandements, they're pretty simple and to the point. Do what's right, go to heaven. Do wrong, go to hell. We're free to choose.

See, even with our free will our perceptions are still dependant on God because we make our decisions based on the enviroment and situations that he has either directly created or set in motion. Given that a lot of us obviously think free will is favorable to being robots "in no control of our actions". However if God was controlling us like robots we would autmotacially be happy (genuinely), and we'd all go to heaven.

There really is no point to free will. It is worse than omnipotent control in every respect.

[QUOTE="RiSkyBiZ-13"][QUOTE="espoac"]

The way Christians put free will up on a pedestal is perplexing to me. By giving us free will God is risking a life of eternal damnation for many of his creations. It's like giving a chocolate bar laced with cyanide to a 4 year old. Even if you tell the 4 year old the chocolate is laced with cyanide, more often than not they'll eat the chocolate. Why? Because they probably don't know what cyanide is. Even if they are told very clearly what the poison will do to them ,say through a parental source, they may still take a bite of the chocolate because they either don't believe the deadliness of cyanide or they believe the parental source is making it all up-because let's face it, the chocolate bar looks normal and the 4 year old's never seen anybody be affected by cyanide.

This metaphor comparing the kid and the candy to humans and the choice of embracing God or going to hell clearly illustrates why free will is not a suitable system for an all-knowing, loving god to implement.

Also, why is it that we think we need free will? Are we are using our own capacity of free will to decide that free will is favorable or are we simply trying to be happy with what we think we have? Why is free will superior to anything else?

How could a perfect, all-knowing, all loving deity have made and implemented such an ill conceived system ?

This brings us to one of two conclusions, either this deity is all-knowing but not all loving and wants some of us to suffer or this deity is loving but just dumb and short sighted. Neither of these figures fit what is described in the Bible or any other religious text that I know of.

espoac

Without Free Will, we would be robots in no control of our actions. Our Free Will is a test to get to heaven. We know the 10 Commandements, they're pretty simple and to the point. Do what's right, go to heaven. Do wrong, go to hell. We're free to choose.

See, even with our free will our perceptions are still dependant on God because we make our decisions based on the enviroment and situations that he has either directly created or set in motion. Given that a lot of us obviously think free will is favorable to being robots "in no control of our actions". However if God was controlling us like robots we would autmotacially be happy (genuinely), and we'd all go to heaven.

There really is no point to free will. It is worse than omnipotent control in every respect.

If we were to be controlled by God, then what would be the point of life itself? Why be born at all? Why not just skip the middle ground and send us strait to heaven? Life is a test, where we are given guidelines and then faces with temptations and challenges. An eternity of paradise is for those who earn it. (again, in my personal opinion, don't expect me to link you to any articles lol)

[QUOTE="Thyeora"]

You have a valid point, however, it is inevitable that asome of theinformation is lost in translation due to the time spans between many of the events and their eventual notation. The New Testament for example was written some 200 years after Jesus died, so it cannot be 100% accurate, especially in a time when records were not great. So to an extent the idea that "all things made man are faulty" would be true. Some of the stories within the stories are evident and easily interpreted, but the more complex ones could just as easily be a lack of communication or a loss of data over the years as they are God being complex.

RiSkyBiZ-13

A large chunk of the New Testament was written while Jesus was alive, considering they were written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and so on- his disciples.

Also, as for translation errors, (excuse me if this seems like I'm reaching), but God works in mysterious ways. Perhaps these errors were meant to be, eventually giving us the true, big picture?

actually i think the earliest gospel was written an estimated 40-60 years after jesus's death.. i forget where i read that but you can look it up on your own.

as to the underlined.. thats a cop out. something seems illogical to us? well, god works in mysterious ways...

Good post, but I would like it if you cleared a few things up.Are you trying to say we do have free will? Or are you open to the possibility that Free Will does not exist and it is only an illusion? Because as far as I know, Free Will is not proven to actually exist, and it could very well be a creationof man to give life meaning by giving man the power of choice... What if we do have a destiny?DrinkDuff

Yes, there could be fate. I simply don't choose to believe that (selfishly) because I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my own life. Also, if fate (or destiny) exists, it is too hard to imagine someone like Jeffery Dahmer being destined to be a murderer and later killed in jail with excersise equipment, or someone born with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome because it's fate. Also, it seems fate is too easy of a scapegoat to use for wrongdoings. It seems like one could say "Well, it's not my fault. It must be destiny that I killed this man." Again, just my view, nothing factual to back it.

[QUOTE="RiSkyBiZ-13"][QUOTE="Thyeora"]

You have a valid point, however, it is inevitable that asome of theinformation is lost in translation due to the time spans between many of the events and their eventual notation. The New Testament for example was written some 200 years after Jesus died, so it cannot be 100% accurate, especially in a time when records were not great. So to an extent the idea that "all things made man are faulty" would be true. Some of the stories within the stories are evident and easily interpreted, but the more complex ones could just as easily be a lack of communication or a loss of data over the years as they are God being complex.

comp_atkins

A large chunk of the New Testament was written while Jesus was alive, considering they were written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and so on- his disciples.

Also, as for translation errors, (excuse me if this seems like I'm reaching), but God works in mysterious ways. Perhaps these errors were meant to be, eventually giving us the true, big picture?

actually i think the earliest gospel was written an estimated 40-60 years after jesus's death.. i forget where i read that but you can look it up on your own.

as to the underlined.. thats a cop out. something seems illogical to us? well, god works in mysterious ways...

I used to think it was a cop out as well, until I realized that there is no possible way that our mortal minds can even begin to comprehend God's will and ultimate goals. How arrogant would it be to say that we can think and reason on the same level as God?

There have been SO many religion threads out lately, it's insane, so I appologize but I would appreciate the opportunity to post my major views in one post, rather than scatter them across the forums. That being said, I'll begin.

Bible Interpretation: Too many religions are misled into the belief that the bible is black and white, to be taken literally and verbatum. Why would God give us minds capable of challenging and questioning if he wanted us to simply accept that Adam and Eve were actual flesh and blood humans that began our species? Or that, at the end of the world, a seven headed lizard will actually come out of the sea, and the moon will literally turn blood red. I don't think that our current species can hope to begin to unveil the stories underneath the stories that make up the Holy Bible, but I do believe that it is our duty to try. We do only use a very tiny percentage of our mortal minds, perhaps in a later evolutionary state our species will be actually be able to unveil the Bible's many mysteries.

RiSkyBiZ-13

Only 150 years ago, nearly every christian believed in Adam and Eve! There are so many interpretations of this book that have spawned conficting religions and sub-religions (under the "christian" or christ believing banner). The Koran is based on the Old Testement. Why bother believing in one interpretation over another, without any evidence either way? Surely its better to establish clear facts instead. Why do you assume there is mystery and layers to be unveiled in the bible? To me, that suggests even more bended interpretations. All these interpretations are tearing the church apart. Views on women priests, gay relationships, other religions and medical progress have divided the churches of christ in the last 25 years - All from the 1 book!

The Big Bang: This is a very plausible theory based on many scientific facts. The more our space program expands, the closer this theory comes to being a fact. What I don't understand is why Athiests use this to disprove the existence of God. Perhaps the Big Bang really did happen, those trillions and trillions of years ago. For a reaction on the scale of the Big Bang, there would have had to been at LEAST two components, or elements if you will (that's a long shot, something on that scale would require more components- but for my purposes of this argument I'll say two). Where did those two components come from? Were they infinate, or were they created? If so by whom? Even if they were infinate, what set them in motion to eventually collide? The Big Bang hardly disproves God's existence, it simply disproves the whole Adam and Eve story, which as I have already said I hardly belive that God's intention was for that fable to be taken literally as historical fact.

RiSkyBiZ-13

I would not bother trying to disprove things. After all, "disproof" is a logical fallacy. Positive proof is the only acceptable proof within the scientific method. There are many hypotheses regarding the cause of the big bang. One of the more popoular ideas is the expanding/shrinking universe concept. There are also no clear facts about the absence of matter before the creation of our universe. I find it bemusing that the scientific framework that observed, gathered and theorised on the big band theory is accepted by theists. The same framework would find no proof of christianity or any other religious intervention in global development. Why believe in the big bang if you don't trust the way we came to know about it? And if you do trust the scientific method for discovery, why have faith in god?

All "who/what started the big bang?" questions have their opposite "who/what created god" counterparts. The difference is, I can experience and quantify the universe - it conforms to physical laws.

Free Will: An issue seems to keep rising in these forums- that of God's supposed "cruelty." It has been posted over and over, "If God is so loving and compassionate, why is there murder, rape, crime, and war? Why doesn't He intervene?" Well, the answer is simple and surfaces in the bible on several occasions. It's called Free Will. God does not work us like puppets. As I have said on several occasions, God left us free to make our world the most prosperous and peaceful place in all of existence. We are as free to hurt and kill as we are to heal and save. Unfortunately, we've all ruined our world. I know (no blasphemy intended) that if I were God, I would have turned my back on this world a long time ago. He, however, has not.

RiSkyBiZ-13

There is and has been terrible crueltyn in this world. Some of it caused by man and some caused by nature. This indiscriminate cruelty suggests there isn't (and never has been) any controlling force. Why would people want to worship and vengeful god? Free will, if given to us by god, would surely either be perfect, or god would know (presumably being both omnipotent and omniscient) what would happen and what a mess we would make. This must make god either vengeful or non-interventionist. Another reason not to believe!

There have been SO many religion threads out lately, it's insane, so I appologize but I would appreciate the opportunity to post my major views in one post, rather than scatter them across the forums. That being said, I'll begin.

Bible Interpretation: Too many religions are misled into the belief that the bible is black and white, to be taken literally and verbatum. Why would God give us minds capable of challenging and questioning if he wanted us to simply accept that Adam and Eve were actual flesh and blood humans that began our species? Or that, at the end of the world, a seven headed lizard will actually come out of the sea, and the moon will literally turn blood red. I don't think that our current species can hope to begin to unveil the stories underneath the stories that make up the Holy Bible, but I do believe that it is our duty to try. We do only use a very tiny percentage of our mortal minds, perhaps in a later evolutionary state our species will be actually be able to unveil the Bible's many mysteries.

The Big Bang: This is a very plausible theory based on many scientific facts. The more our space program expands, the closer this theory comes to being a fact. What I don't understand is why Athiests use this to disprove the existence of God. Perhaps the Big Bang really did happen, those trillions and trillions of years ago. For a reaction on the scale of the Big Bang, there would have had to been at LEAST two components, or elements if you will (that's a long shot, something on that scale would require more components- but for my purposes of this argument I'll say two). Where did those two components come from? Were they infinate, or were they created? If so by whom? Even if they were infinate, what set them in motion to eventually collide? The Big Bang hardly disproves God's existence, it simply disproves the whole Adam and Eve story, which as I have already said I hardly belive that God's intention was for that fable to be taken literally as historical fact.

Free Will: An issue seems to keep rising in these forums- that of God's supposed "cruelty." It has been posted over and over, "If God is so loving and compassionate, why is there murder, rape, crime, and war? Why doesn't He intervene?" Well, the answer is simple and surfaces in the bible on several occasions. It's called Free Will. God does not work us like puppets. As I have said on several occasions, God left us free to make our world the most prosperous and peaceful place in all of existence. We are as free to hurt and kill as we are to heal and save. Unfortunately, we've all ruined our world. I know (no blasphemy intended) that if I were God, I would have turned my back on this world a long time ago. He, however, has not.

RiSkyBiZ-13

[QUOTE="Mutatedbloodelf"]Not even going to bother reading all of those lies.RiSkyBiZ-13

Worthless post much?

I believe you may be biased.

Unfortunately, we've all ruined our world.

I think that at least could qualify as a lie, as it seems cloaked in a measure of factuality.

I would also add that I think you might want to do a bit more research into the Big Bang before making a post about it.

The Bible is merely a human's interpretation of God's word. It is bound to be faulty since a human(s) were the vehicle for trasmitting the word to paper (or whatever passed as paper).

As free will, would it not stand to reason that the whole view of making it a peaceful world would be against free will since certain freedoms would inevitably curbed to guarantee a peaceful world. It seems like a Catch-22 to me.

I used to think it was a cop out as well, until I realized that there is no possible way that our mortal minds can even begin to comprehend God's will and ultimate goals. How arrogant would it be to say that we can think and reason on the same level as God?

RiSkyBiZ-13

What made you realise that?

It sounds arrogant to me that you can state that god has superior reasoning to humans, despite the terrible mess gods creation has gotten into (in your eyes) and how god seems unable or unwilling to do anything about it.

Perhaps god enjoys puzzles?

[QUOTE="RiSkyBiZ-13"]

I used to think it was a cop out as well, until I realized that there is no possible way that our mortal minds can even begin to comprehend God's will and ultimate goals. How arrogant would it be to say that we can think and reason on the same level as God?

RationalAtheist

What made you realise that?

I realized this when I came to terms with evolution. Saying that God's mind is on our level is rediculous, we still have a LOT of evolving to do. If God is on our level at this evolutionary state, that's saying that our minds will surpass God's in a few thousand years.

It sounds arrogant to me that you can state that god has superior reasoning to humans, despite the terrible mess gods creation has gotten into (in your eyes) and how god seems unable or unwilling to do anything about it.

Again, RationalAthiest you're ignoring my MANY posts, including the first post I made in this thread. Go to the very post, read my chapter on "Free Will," God didn't get into this mess we did.

Perhaps god enjoys puzzles?

Perhaps.

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"][QUOTE="RiSkyBiZ-13"]

I used to think it was a cop out as well, until I realized that there is no possible way that our mortal minds can even begin to comprehend God's will and ultimate goals. How arrogant would it be to say that we can think and reason on the same level as God?

RiSkyBiZ-13

What made you realise that?

I realized this when I came to terms with evolution. Saying that God's mind is on our level is rediculous, we still have a LOT of evolving to do. If God is on our level at this evolutionary state, that's saying that our minds will surpass God's in a few thousand years.

It sounds arrogant to me that you can state that god has superior reasoning to humans, despite the terrible mess gods creation has gotten into (in your eyes) and how god seems unable or unwilling to do anything about it.

RationalAtheist

Again, RationalAthiest you're ignoring my MANY posts, including the first post I made in this thread. Go to the very post, read my chapter on "Free Will," God didn't get into this mess we did.

Perhaps god enjoys puzzles?

RationalAtheist

Perhaps.

Eh? I can't follow you train of thought about evolution. You seem to acknowledge human evolution. Might god not evolve too? Why follow a god blindlyif you don't know of their ultimate goals?

I did read your post, and reply to it, para by para. Perhaps you missed that? The "free-will" argument also make little sense to me, on analysis. Read my earlier reply to find out more...

You put your faith in a god who might be playing tricks on you? Whatever floats you boat...

Nice and well thought out post, *thumbs up* I approveRavirr

*Thumbs up*

I concur.

Only 150 years ago, nealy everyone believe in Adam and Eve! There are so many interpretations of this book that have spawned conficting religions and sub-religions (under the "christian" or christ believing banner). The Koran is based on the Old Testement. Why bother believing in one interpretation over another, without any evidence either way? Surely its better to establish clear facts instead. Why do you assume there is mystery and layers to be unveiled in the bible? To me, that suggests even more bended interpretations. All these interpretations are tearing the church apart. Views on women priests, gay relationships, other religions and medical progress have divided the churches of christ in the last 25 years - All from the 1 book!

RationalAtheist

My belief is that our brains, in the current evolutionary state, cannot hope to unveil all the mysteries the bible holds. I do, however, believe it is every Chritian's duty to try their best to take as much away from the Holy Bible as they can.

I would not bother trying to disprove things. After all, "disproof" is a logical fallacy. Positive proof is the only acceptable proof within the scientific method. There are many hypotheses regarding the cause of the big bang. One of the more popoular ideas is the expanding/shrinking universe concept. There are also no clear facts about the absence of matter before the creation of our universe. I find it bemusing that the scientific framework that observed, gathered and theorised on the big band theory is accepted by theists. The same framework would find no proof of christianity or any other religious intervention in global development. Why believe in the big bang if you don't trust the way we came to know about it? And if you do trust the scientific method for discovery, why have faith in god?

All "who/what started the big bang?" questions have their opposite "who/what created god" counterparts. The difference is, I can experience and quantify the universe - it conforms to physical laws.

RationalAthiest

Again, simply my view, God is infinate. No rocks, gasses, electrical charges, or anything material is infinate.

There is and has been terrible crueltyn in this world. Some of it caused by man and some caused by nature. This indiscriminate cruelty suggests there isn't (and never has been) any controlling force. Why would people want to worship and vengeful god? Free will, if given to us by god, would surely either be perfect, or god would know (presumably being both omnipotent and omniscient) what would happen and what a mess we would make. This must make god either vengeful or non-interventionist. Another reason not to believe!

RationalAthiest

So the only acceptable way to believe is if God loves everything and everyone, and would never let harm come to a single person? Read the Old Testament, familiarize yourself with Free Will.

Eh? I can't follow you train of thought about evolution. You seem to acknowledge human evolution. Might god not evolve too? Why follow a god blindlyif you don't know of their ultimate goals?

God evolving would mean God wasn't infinate, I cannot believe that.

I did read your post, and reply to it, para by para. Perhaps you missed that? The "free-will" argument also make little sense to me, on analysis. Read my earlier reply to find out more...

Actually, I did miss that, my appologies. I understand that Free Will can be a very abstract topic, but to my understanding it makes perfect sense.

You put your faith in a god who might be playing tricks on you? Whatever floats you boat...

I don't think He plays tricks, I think He tests us, which I think is completely appropriate.

RationalAtheist

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

Only 150 years ago, nealy everyone believed in Adam and Eve! There are so many interpretations of this book that have spawned conficting religions and sub-religions (under the "christian" or christ believing banner). The Koran is based on the Old Testement. Why bother believing in one interpretation over another, without any evidence either way? Surely its better to establish clear facts instead. Why do you assume there is mystery and layers to be unveiled in the bible? To me, that suggests even more bended interpretations. All these interpretations are tearing the church apart. Views on women priests, gay relationships, other religions and medical progress have divided the churches of christ in the last 25 years - All from the 1 book!

RiSkyBiZ-13

My belief is that our brains, in the current evolutionary state, cannot hope to unveil all the mysteries the bible holds. I do, however, believe it is every Chritian's duty to try their best to take as much away from the Holy Bible as they can.

I would not bother trying to disprove things. After all, "disproof" is a logical fallacy. Positive proof is the only acceptable proof within the scientific method. There are many hypotheses regarding the cause of the big bang. One of the more popoular ideas is the expanding/shrinking universe concept. There are also no clear facts about the absence of matter before the creation of our universe. I find it bemusing that the scientific framework that observed, gathered and theorised on the big band theory is accepted by theists. The same framework would find no proof of christianity or any other religious intervention in global development. Why believe in the big bang if you don't trust the way we came to know about it? And if you do trust the scientific method for discovery, why have faith in god?

All "who/what started the big bang?" questions have their opposite "who/what created god" counterparts. The difference is, I can experience and quantify the universe - it conforms to physical laws.

RationalAthiest

Again, simply my view, God is infinate. No rocks, gasses, electrical charges, or anything material is infinate.

There is and has been terrible crueltyn in this world. Some of it caused by man and some caused by nature. This indiscriminate cruelty suggests there isn't (and never has been) any controlling force. Why would people want to worship and vengeful god? Free will, if given to us by god, would surely either be perfect, or god would know (presumably being both omnipotent and omniscient) what would happen and what a mess we would make. This must make god either vengeful or non-interventionist. Another reason not to believe!

RationalAthiest

So the only acceptable way to believe is if God loves everything and everyone, and would never let harm come to a single person? Read the Old Testament, familiarize yourself with Free Will.

Why are there so many flavours of christianity? It seems your belief system is fairly unique to you - I have not heard about the "mysterious" god theory. I'm not sure how many other christians would agree with you. Once more, no basis for these beliefs is give, just statements of belief. You could be saying the same thing about invisible pink unicorns.

Please define infinity. I don't really trust these loose terms. What basis do you have to think that matter is not infinite?

I have read the old testement and familiarised myself with the many hundreds of tales of gods extreme vengefulness, brutality, jelousy and hate. I can't really see myself praying to a god like that. What would the point be?

Anyway, I thought Jesus came along in the new testement and god changed to be less brutal, as presented in the current christian scripture. So is god still being brutal, by killing babies with natural disasters, or is god being nice, but having the occasional relapse?

[QUOTE="comp_atkins"][QUOTE="RiSkyBiZ-13"][QUOTE="Thyeora"]

You have a valid point, however, it is inevitable that asome of theinformation is lost in translation due to the time spans between many of the events and their eventual notation. The New Testament for example was written some 200 years after Jesus died, so it cannot be 100% accurate, especially in a time when records were not great. So to an extent the idea that "all things made man are faulty" would be true. Some of the stories within the stories are evident and easily interpreted, but the more complex ones could just as easily be a lack of communication or a loss of data over the years as they are God being complex.

RiSkyBiZ-13

A large chunk of the New Testament was written while Jesus was alive, considering they were written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and so on- his disciples.

Also, as for translation errors, (excuse me if this seems like I'm reaching), but God works in mysterious ways. Perhaps these errors were meant to be, eventually giving us the true, big picture?

actually i think the earliest gospel was written an estimated 40-60 years after jesus's death.. i forget where i read that but you can look it up on your own.

as to the underlined.. thats a cop out. something seems illogical to us? well, god works in mysterious ways...

I used to think it was a cop out as well, until I realized that there is no possible way that our mortal minds can even begin to comprehend God's will and ultimate goals. How arrogant would it be to say that we can think and reason on the same level as God?

its only a arrogant if you pre-assume god exists in the first place. otherwise its a lazy-man's explaination for things we will never understand.

Eh? I can't follow you train of thought about evolution. You seem to acknowledge human evolution. Might god not evolve too? Why follow a god blindlyif you don't know of their ultimate goals?

RationalAtheist

God evolving would mean God wasn't infinate, I cannot believe that.

RiSkyBiZ-13

I did read your post, and reply to it, para by para. Perhaps you missed that? The "free-will" argument also make little sense to me, on analysis. Read my earlier reply to find out more...

RationalAtheist

Actually, I did miss that, my appologies. I understand that Free Will can be a very abstract topic, but to my understanding it makes perfect sense.

RiSkyBiZ-13

You put your faith in a god who might be playing tricks on you? Whatever floats you boat...

RationalAtheist

I don't think He plays tricks, I think He tests us, which I think is completely appropriate.

RiSkyBiZ-13

Can something not be both infinite and evolve? How would you know?

Last post, you said "maybe" to my "does god likes puzzles" question.

Why whould god test us? Do you really think god focuses on individual needs and desires for some while ignoring others, leaving them to die in starvation and misery? Are you sure that god tests the affluent western religious congregations with petty religious trifles, when tidal waves are killing tens of thousands elsewhere?

Do you not think the "testing" get-out clause in christianity is really down to no supernatural intervention at all; rather proof of the mathematical constructs of chance and probability?