Bible Interpretation, the Big Bang, and Free Will

[QUOTE="Devil-Itachi"]So you choose to avoid the question at hand, to not look bad. You are being quite ignorant. The only offensive part is where I called god a jerk, a few posts later. If you can point out my ignorance please do so.
RiSkyBiZ-13

Here are your "Contributions" to this thread, if you can even call them that. You asked me to point out your ignorance, I'd love to:

If "God " wanted us to believe in him, WE WOULD. There is no if and but's about this.Devil-Itachi

IGNORANCE ALERT:So you have it all figured out, hm? You know God's plan. Interesting.

Oh just wanted to add something real quick. If god exists and the only way to go to heaven is by the rules of the bible 'n stuff. What happens to are fellow earthlings, do they just die or go to hell because they simply can't speak this language. What about the people in North and South america that had no way of knowing about this until just a few hundred years ago. Do all of them just go to hell because they didn't know?Devil-Itachi

IGNORANCE ALERT: Read the bible. If you are a good, moral person, you will go to heaven. Not quite by the rules of the, how did you word it? "The bible 'n stuff."

I would like a answer. Did god only care about one side of the world? And does he only care about humans?
Devil-Itachi

IGNORANCE ALERT: So what exactly do you mean one side of the world? Christianity is spread world-wide, and God cares for ALL of us. Also, when you say humans, surely you're not referring to the existence of aliens... Well, maybe you are. lol.

No, I don't believe in God. But it sounds like your guys god is a jerk.Devil-Itachi

IGNORANCE ALERT: This is just insulting, with no explanation as to how you reached the conclusion that God is a "jerk."

I can see RiSkyBiZ-13 can now be dismissed as a blind follower. As he can not properly defend his beliefs. He should be seen in the same way kids believe in Santa Claus, kind of sad but hey it makes them happy.Devil-Itachi

IGNORANCE ALERT: Again, being very offensive and disrespectful. Calling a devout Catholic a child who believes in Santa Clause. Read my first post, this thread was a post of my PERSONAL views and beliefs, with no fact supporting it. When it comes to Religion, there is no such "proper defense" of beliefs. There is only faith.

I hope that was sufficient for you.

but YOU do know gods? plan? to quote you:

"Yes, God can see what we are doing in years to come, yet due to his gift and curse of Free Will, he will not intervene if we go down the wrong path. Can he? Yes. Will he? No."

seems you do know god's plan... ignorance alert indeed.

anyway. this discussion will never end because no one can actually discover the truth.

[QUOTE="RiSkyBiZ-13"]

[QUOTE="Devil-Itachi"]So you choose to avoid the question at hand, to not look bad. You are being quite ignorant. The only offensive part is where I called god a jerk, a few posts later. If you can point out my ignorance please do so.
comp_atkins

Here are your "Contributions" to this thread, if you can even call them that. You asked me to point out your ignorance, I'd love to:

If "God " wanted us to believe in him, WE WOULD. There is no if and but's about this.Devil-Itachi

IGNORANCE ALERT:So you have it all figured out, hm? You know God's plan. Interesting.

Oh just wanted to add something real quick. If god exists and the only way to go to heaven is by the rules of the bible 'n stuff. What happens to are fellow earthlings, do they just die or go to hell because they simply can't speak this language. What about the people in North and South america that had no way of knowing about this until just a few hundred years ago. Do all of them just go to hell because they didn't know?Devil-Itachi

IGNORANCE ALERT: Read the bible. If you are a good, moral person, you will go to heaven. Not quite by the rules of the, how did you word it? "The bible 'n stuff."

I would like a answer. Did god only care about one side of the world? And does he only care about humans?
Devil-Itachi

IGNORANCE ALERT: So what exactly do you mean one side of the world? Christianity is spread world-wide, and God cares for ALL of us. Also, when you say humans, surely you're not referring to the existence of aliens... Well, maybe you are. lol.

No, I don't believe in God. But it sounds like your guys god is a jerk.Devil-Itachi

IGNORANCE ALERT: This is just insulting, with no explanation as to how you reached the conclusion that God is a "jerk."

I can see RiSkyBiZ-13 can now be dismissed as a blind follower. As he can not properly defend his beliefs. He should be seen in the same way kids believe in Santa Claus, kind of sad but hey it makes them happy.Devil-Itachi

IGNORANCE ALERT: Again, being very offensive and disrespectful. Calling a devout Catholic a child who believes in Santa Clause. Read my first post, this thread was a post of my PERSONAL views and beliefs, with no fact supporting it. When it comes to Religion, there is no such "proper defense" of beliefs. There is only faith.

I hope that was sufficient for you.

but YOU do know gods? plan? to quote you:

"Yes, God can see what we are doing in years to come, yet due to his gift and curse of Free Will, he will not intervene if we go down the wrong path. Can he? Yes. Will he? No."

seems you do know god's plan... ignorance alert indeed.

anyway. this discussion will never end because no one can actually discover the truth.

Indeed.No one will EVER know the truth,there are those who can see the world for what it is and live for meaningful things like peace love and happiness.And there are those who will live in the clouds and believe that some diety will save them and bring them eternal happiness,we dont know,stop jumping to conclusions.Well know when we die.Or will we?

"A decent post, except for the part where you state "G-- makes no difference whatsoever in anybody's life.." speak for yourself, not for everyone. God makes all the difference in my life."

This is an opinion as well. You may believe God does but is there any way of proving that? How much are you weighing other factors in with this and are you just using God as a funnel for these different factors?

I expect to get the same answer I received from my other post...nothing. That is the usual response for something like this on a religious thread. Ignored.

Don't expect to change many opinions on a religious thread. You'll be about as successful in a political one.

And the reason I'm posting here is Free Will, something you know all about. :)

"A decent post, except for the part where you state "G-- makes no difference whatsoever in anybody's life.." speak for yourself, not for everyone. God makes all the difference in my life."

This is an opinion as well. You may believe God does but is there any way of proving that? How much are you weighing other factors in with this and are you just using God as a funnel for these different factors?

I expect to get the same answer I received from my other post...nothing. That is the usual response for something like this on a religious thread. Ignored.

Don't expect to change many opinions on a religious thread. You'll be about as successful in a political one.

And the reason I'm posting here is Free Will, something you know all about. :)

cirthlanthelios

It loses the properties of an "opinion" when he speaks for everyone. Saying "God makes no difference in my life" is an opinion. If you came to this thread looking for proof, stick to the science threads. As was in the disclaimer of my original post on this thread, I am simply posting my personal views. And I don't expect or try to change your opinion, that's not the purpose of this thread.

The problem I see with people like Devil-Itachi is that they are what I like to call "aggressively atheist". Not only do they not believe in G*d, they aggressively pursue their atheism in a way that resembles religious zealots. Zealots of any stripe are usually free from all logic anyway, so it's difficult to talk to them. The way I see it, however, it's very difficult to believe in G*d mainly because He never seems to show His face.

For myself; I don't believe in any higher power because I've never seen any evidence for it. Never seen any evidence against it either, but frankly that's not enough to convince me either. I won't say I DON'T believe in Him, just that I'm not sure. The same way I can't ever truly be sure if the universe is infinite or not. So long as there is no conclusive proof either way, it's sheer idiocy to make any kind of judgement call. I deplore scientists that just "believe" that the universe is infinite. They're making a cardinal sin of taking something on faith when there is not enough evidence to justify it. All of science is based on that.

As for free will, does nobody else think it's overrated? Apparently, we've been given such a wonderful gift as the ability to make our own decisions. What do we do with it? We murder each other over the pettiest things, we destroy hundreds of lives over tiny patches of land, we rape and steal and maim ... really, what good is this free will? Without it, we may be robots without any control over our actions, true, but we'd live in a utopia where there would be no poverty, no crime, no hate, no malice. Wouldn't that be worth the sacrifice of something that hasn't done us a whit of good anyway? And you might say, "there are good people in this world." Certainly there are. But not everyone is good. Not everyone CHOOSES to be good. And therein lies the problem. Why give them the choice to be bad in the first place? Why not take the choice from them, and FORCE them to be good?

Anyway, as for the Big Bang: there is evidence to support that, and evidence against. And not all evidence against is neccessarily aimed at disproving G*d either. One of the more popular ones is the fact that there seems to be not enough mass in the universe to justify the theory, thus the theory about "dark matter" that we can't detect. Oh right, dark matter. Is this like G*d then? Something we need to take on faith? I'm sorry, but if I can't detect it, I can't believe in it. It may very well be there, but until there's evidence for it I can't just "take it on faith".

In the end, most people like me, in answer to the question, "why DON'T you believe in G*d? There's no evidence saying he's NOT there ..." the answer would be, "why should I?" There just isn't any reason we have to believe in something we can't see evidence for. I suppose it only applies to people with a very strong scientific background like myself, who spent a lifetime making conclusions only based on sound evidence.

The fact is, science is as unlike faith as can possibly be. For a religious person, there never was evidence and never will be, but that's OK. For a scientist, EVERYTHING is based on evidence. For a religious person, "evidence" doesn't faze their beliefs, because they have faith. For a scientist, every theory is only true as long as new evidence doesn't come along to disprove it. Even our so-called "laws" can be bent or broken if empirical evidence provides a counterexample. For the longest time, Newton's "Laws" were thought to be absolute. Until Einstein came along.

As for Bible interpretation, what can I say. I've never read it, so I don't have any knowledge of it. All I CAN really say about the Bible is that I hate people who quote passages from it to put down others, as though every single thing you do is a sin against G*d and that you'd go to Hell forever and ever and a day. If that's the way Christians convert then no thank you, I get enough people screaming at me at work, I don't need any more thank you very much. I don't need nor desire some person constantly yelling, "You're going to Hell, young man! Do you not fear the fire and the brimstone?! You cannot be saved, you're a damned soul, may G*d have pity on you ..." And here I thought only the Calvanists were that depressing.

The big bang is a fact. we have enough data about the background radiation of the universe for this to be the logical explanation of the universe's origin. It is perfectly possible for it to occur with current models of physics, which will be able to explain even more when we get gravity to make sense with quantum physics. There was not a vacuum before the universe; in fact, there was the exact opposite, a plenum or singularity. The density was infinite, which, had it been a vaccuum, would have been zero. so there is no real similarity between the universe's origin and God creating ex nihilo. Genesis can only be understood to have any value if it is read symbolically, the only way for it tohave happened as described would be if God was deliberately tricking us.

Free will is not inherently in conflict with an omnipotent deity, he could choose to give us it, even though he is fully capable to do otherwise. An omniscient God is harder to reconsile, although one could argue that if one had infinite information, one could predict everything with 100% certainty, even though there is no force demanding it happen thusly.

The problem I see with people like Devil-Itachi is that they are what I like to call "aggressively atheist". Not only do they not believe in G*d, they aggressively pursue their atheism in a way that resembles religious zealots. Zealots of any stripe are usually free from all logic anyway, so it's difficult to talk to them. The way I see it, however, it's very difficult to believe in G*d mainly because He never seems to show His face.

For myself; I don't believe in any higher power because I've never seen any evidence for it. Never seen any evidence against it either, but frankly that's not enough to convince me either. I won't say I DON'T believe in Him, just that I'm not sure. The same way I can't ever truly be sure if the universe is infinite or not. So long as there is no conclusive proof either way, it's sheer idiocy to make any kind of judgement call. I deplore scientists that just "believe" that the universe is infinite. They're making a cardinal sin of taking something on faith when there is not enough evidence to justify it. All of science is based on that.

As for free will, does nobody else think it's overrated? Apparently, we've been given such a wonderful gift as the ability to make our own decisions. What do we do with it? We murder each other over the pettiest things, we destroy hundreds of lives over tiny patches of land, we rape and steal and maim ... really, what good is this free will? Without it, we may be robots without any control over our actions, true, but we'd live in a utopia where there would be no poverty, no crime, no hate, no malice. Wouldn't that be worth the sacrifice of something that hasn't done us a whit of good anyway? And you might say, "there are good people in this world." Certainly there are. But not everyone is good. Not everyone CHOOSES to be good. And therein lies the problem. Why give them the choice to be bad in the first place? Why not take the choice from them, and FORCE them to be good?

Anyway, as for the Big Bang: there is evidence to support that, and evidence against. And not all evidence against is neccessarily aimed at disproving G*d either. One of the more popular ones is the fact that there seems to be not enough mass in the universe to justify the theory, thus the theory about "dark matter" that we can't detect. Oh right, dark matter. Is this like G*d then? Something we need to take on faith? I'm sorry, but if I can't detect it, I can't believe in it. It may very well be there, but until there's evidence for it I can't just "take it on faith".

In the end, most people like me, in answer to the question, "why DON'T you believe in G*d? There's no evidence saying he's NOT there ..." the answer would be, "why should I?" There just isn't any reason we have to believe in something we can't see evidence for. I suppose it only applies to people with a very strong scientific background like myself, who spent a lifetime making conclusions only based on sound evidence.

The fact is, science is as unlike faith as can possibly be. For a religious person, there never was evidence and never will be, but that's OK. For a scientist, EVERYTHING is based on evidence. For a religious person, "evidence" doesn't faze their beliefs, because they have faith. For a scientist, every theory is only true as long as new evidence doesn't come along to disprove it. Even our so-called "laws" can be bent or broken if empirical evidence provides a counterexample. For the longest time, Newton's "Laws" were thought to be absolute. Until Einstein came along.

As for Bible interpretation, what can I say. I've never read it, so I don't have any knowledge of it. All I CAN really say about the Bible is that I hate people who quote passages from it to put down others, as though every single thing you do is a sin against G*d and that you'd go to Hell forever and ever and a day. If that's the way Christians convert then no thank you, I get enough people screaming at me at work, I don't need any more thank you very much. I don't need nor desire some person constantly yelling, "You're going to Hell, young man! Do you not fear the fire and the brimstone?! You cannot be saved, you're a damned soul, may G*d have pity on you ..." And here I thought only the Calvanists were that depressing.

Opalescent

While our views oppose, that's one of the most constructive and well-though posts in this thread. Thank you.

[QUOTE="cirthlanthelios"]

"A decent post, except for the part where you state "G-- makes no difference whatsoever in anybody's life.." speak for yourself, not for everyone. God makes all the difference in my life."

This is an opinion as well. You may believe God does but is there any way of proving that? How much are you weighing other factors in with this and are you just using God as a funnel for these different factors?

I expect to get the same answer I received from my other post...nothing. That is the usual response for something like this on a religious thread. Ignored.

Don't expect to change many opinions on a religious thread. You'll be about as successful in a political one.

And the reason I'm posting here is Free Will, something you know all about. :)

RiSkyBiZ-13

It loses the properties of an "opinion" when he speaks for everyone. Saying "God makes no difference in my life" is an opinion. If you came to this thread looking for proof, stick to the science threads. As was in the disclaimer of my original post on this thread, I am simply posting my personal views. And I don't expect or try to change your opinion, that's not the purpose of this thread.

If a person expresses a view he believes it is an opinion whether he believes it affects no one or everyone. You were looking for something in starting this thread, if it wasn't to change an opinion it was to have someone commend yours, or perhaps you were looking for an argument/discussion.

Proof? I certainly wouldn't look here. All I was seeking to do was to show a certain fallacy in your statements/opinions and to offer suggestions as to different approaches you may take to either create a stronger foundation for some rather weak statemtents you made or to allow you to discover alternative ideas to explore. However, being a religious thread that was probably hopeful thinking, something the religious minded should understand.

[QUOTE="Chavyneebslod"]

And you seriously didn't get it.... The point I was trying to make, by means of analogies that you concentrated too much on, was if an agent can see the future(s) with absolute certianty, then it proves, above reproach, that the future is pre-determined. With that determinism, 3 concepts are now defunct and figments of our imagination; morality, rationality and free-will.

People judging others and 'sensing' 'possible destinies' is neither here nor there. The objective word is 'possible'. I am dealing with certianties.

My lack of comment about your star trek tangent should speak volumes about what I think of it.

RationalAtheist

Er, hold on! If there is more than one possible future, then the future is not determined! Obviously, not all possible futures could occur.

Even without free will, there is still room for rationality and morality. I cant see how pre-determination would affect value judgements.

If the future is pre-determined, what is the point of living?

In "not" commenting on star trek, you just did.

Even if there is n amount of futures, and God can see every possible one, THEY ARE STILL ALREADY DETERMINED.Your 'manyfutures' argument is defunct anyway, as God knows what choices you will make. By 'knows' i mean, 'Can say with 100% accuracy every time,what you will do for every single decision in your life' In which case, he will look at the relevant future and ignore the others as there is no way youcould have chosen differently because he already 'knows' what your choice will be, all the other futures are hypothetical.

Ithought removing morality would be an obvious one, but thereyou go. Say I had a gun to someones head, I can either kill them or let them go. Seeing asGod 'knows' what I am going to do (he's all-powerful, see?) do I actuallyhave a choice in the matter?DoI hell, i'm destined to do what God has seen in my future. I cannot surprise him, by suddenly letting the person go or by blowing their brains out. God cannot be shockedby my decisions. Because I am destined to do whatGod has seen, I have no choice and can therefor make no actual moral decision. I am a clockwork puppet dancing to a tune that God has the sheet music for. (I need to write that metaphor down :P)

If I am a clockwork puppet, it is fair to saythat all my thoughts, feelings and actionsarejust stepping stones to mydetermined future. The analogy forrationality follows pretty much in the same veinas the morality issue. Ifyou aredestined to be swayed by my argument,your use of rationality doesn't matter,you will endup fufilling your futurein any case. In which case, the idea of rationality is an illusion as is morality and free-will.

The reason to live is that you cannot say with certianty what will happen,for now. Andevery choice you make is free to the best of your knowledge. Anyway, if the universe is pre-determined, we will philosophically be able to create time machines, andi don't know about you, butI see that as a reason to stick around. I could see the dinosaurs!

There have been SO many religion threads out lately, it's insane, so I appologize but I would appreciate the opportunity to post my major views in one post, rather than scatter them across the forums. That being said, I'll begin.

Bible Interpretation: Too many religions are misled into the belief that the bible is black and white, to be taken literally and verbatum. Why would God give us minds capable of challenging and questioning if he wanted us to simply accept that Adam and Eve were actual flesh and blood humans that began our species? Or that, at the end of the world, a seven headed lizard will actually come out of the sea, and the moon will literally turn blood red. I don't think that our current species can hope to begin to unveil the stories underneath the stories that make up the Holy Bible, but I do believe that it is our duty to try. We do only use a very tiny percentage of our mortal minds, perhaps in a later evolutionary state our species will be actually be able to unveil the Bible's many mysteries.

The Big Bang: This is a very plausible theory based on many scientific facts. The more our space program expands, the closer this theory comes to being a fact. What I don't understand is why Athiests use this to disprove the existence of God. Perhaps the Big Bang really did happen, those trillions and trillions of years ago. For a reaction on the scale of the Big Bang, there would have had to been at LEAST two components, or elements if you will (that's a long shot, something on that scale would require more components- but for my purposes of this argument I'll say two). Where did those two components come from? Were they infinate, or were they created? If so by whom? Even if they were infinate, what set them in motion to eventually collide? The Big Bang hardly disproves God's existence, it simply disproves the whole Adam and Eve story, which as I have already said I hardly belive that God's intention was for that fable to be taken literally as historical fact.

Free Will: An issue seems to keep rising in these forums- that of God's supposed "cruelty." It has been posted over and over, "If God is so loving and compassionate, why is there murder, rape, crime, and war? Why doesn't He intervene?" Well, the answer is simple and surfaces in the bible on several occasions. It's called Free Will. God does not work us like puppets. As I have said on several occasions, God left us free to make our world the most prosperous and peaceful place in all of existence. We are as free to hurt and kill as we are to heal and save. Unfortunately, we've all ruined our world. I know (no blasphemy intended) that if I were God, I would have turned my back on this world a long time ago. He, however, has not.

RiSkyBiZ-13

Bible Interpretation: The Bible is black and white. The book is there, you read it if you want and that's that. The only thing that makes the Bible difficult to understand is when people take the Bible for more than what it is, a book. Also, God didn't give us "minds capable of challenging and questioning." Prove that God gave us minds. Also, why are people born with down syndrome? Why would God do that to them? Of course there is a logicial explanation to the development of the brian but explain it to me in fantasy logic. The only duty you have is to reproduce. Stop trying to bring meaning out of nothing.

The Big Bang: Athiest don't use this to disprove the existance of God. They use this to make fun of Christians by using their logic. I thought that was obvious but I don't know. Apparently not everything is black and white. As for your questions, "Where did those two components come from? Were they infinate, or were they created? If so by whom?" These are pointless questions that no one will ever know the answer to and has been asked for too long. it's funny how "God gave us" a brain smart enough to know these questions but not smart enough to figure them out.

Where did those two components come from? Were they infinate, or were they created? If so by whom?

Free Will: You are right about one thing, the answer is simple: God doesn't intervene because he isn't there. It's like saying Santa Claus is cruel for giving the good children presents and the bad children coal. Same concept. Also, prove that "God" hasn't turned his back ont his world and left.

The Obvious Questions: Why is it that humans are the only species on this planet that need religion? Why don't dolphins need religion? Why did Religion occur only after humans were smart enough to ask these questions?

the Quran makes more sense than the bible, no wonder since 9/11, people wanted to know what this Islam religion is. so the only way to find out about Islam is not by looking at the followers, but looking at the main source, which is the Quran. and guess what? Islam has become the fastest growing religion in america, in europe, heck, in the world...

no bashing please im just stating the facts thats all...

In response to the Bible interpretation: The whole point of scripture, for any religion, is a foundation for the exploration into the understanding of the ultimate truth. Scripture can only provide the "reason" behind such explorations, it cannot provide "experience," which is *the* most important aspect of faith. It would be wrong to say that all Christians take the Bible as fact, quite wrong indeed... but many do, many were taught that it is the word of God and they should follow it to the letter. The problem is, scripture, like theories in science, can be proven incorrect if the proper evidence arises... and it does, quite often. Which, like science, it should adapt and take in these new ideas and use them to help further cement the faith in the religion itself.

In response to the Big Bang: Atheists *think* they are using to disprove the existence of God. It is a delusion. They cannot disprove the existence of God nor can one prove the existence of God (at least through empirical methods). The only thing they can do is deny the existence of God. The thing about the Big Bang is we know so little, right now it is completely based off of speculation. Only until we can empirically examine one in progress we will always only be theorizing about it. We can *never* know how our universe began, whether through a natural process or supernatural.

In response to Free Will: This is probably one of the biggest logical paradoxes in monotheism. One that requires an extensive knowledge of both sides to even discuss. I don't really want to get into it because I know I will end up just confusing myself.foxhound_fox

the big bang and evolution are fact. just because you say its made to disprove something else. maybe its the answer to how, and not the answer to why.

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]In response to the Bible interpretation: The whole point of scripture, for any religion, is a foundation for the exploration into the understanding of the ultimate truth. Scripture can only provide the "reason" behind such explorations, it cannot provide "experience," which is *the* most important aspect of faith. It would be wrong to say that all Christians take the Bible as fact, quite wrong indeed... but many do, many were taught that it is the word of God and they should follow it to the letter. The problem is, scripture, like theories in science, can be proven incorrect if the proper evidence arises... and it does, quite often. Which, like science, it should adapt and take in these new ideas and use them to help further cement the faith in the religion itself.

In response to the Big Bang: Atheists *think* they are using to disprove the existence of God. It is a delusion. They cannot disprove the existence of God nor can one prove the existence of God (at least through empirical methods). The only thing they can do is deny the existence of God. The thing about the Big Bang is we know so little, right now it is completely based off of speculation. Only until we can empirically examine one in progress we will always only be theorizing about it. We can *never* know how our universe began, whether through a natural process or supernatural.

In response to Free Will: This is probably one of the biggest logical paradoxes in monotheism. One that requires an extensive knowledge of both sides to even discuss. I don't really want to get into it because I know I will end up just confusing myself.irelevent

the big bang and evolution are fact. just because you say its made to disprove something else. maybe its the answer to how, and not the answer to why.

lol at the big bang and EVOLUTION is fact... yeah right, its a THEORY...

The problem I see with people like Devil-Itachi is that they are what I like to call "aggressively atheist".

Opalescent

You seem to have miss understood my views. Because I don't care if you believe in a god. I do have a problem with people that believe in things that contradict. The agressive thing is people seem to completely ignore my post.. and the one person that did reply to the one post I wanted a answer for ignored the entire post except for "bible 'n stuff". It annoys the hell out of me.

[QUOTE="syorks1"][QUOTE="Chavyneebslod"]

[QUOTE="syorks1"]I agree with u on the free will part but not on the other two.Chavyneebslod

Brush up on your philosophy. It is a logical contradiction for an omnipotent being and free will to coexist.

How so?

I'm glad you asked that question, it is the reason I am still awake at 2am.

Consider yourself and God. For God to be omnipotent, then he would have to be able to do everything, which includes, but is not limited to, seeing into the future and seeing what you are doing in your life in 5, 10 even 20 years. Correct?

If the above statement was correct in your eyes. We are forced to accept that the future is pre-determined and your life will follow a set course. If this course is already set, nothing you can do can change it. You are destined to follow the path that was set for you. Thus eliminating any choices you can make. Following me so far?

This type of pre-determined life is what philosophers call (surprisingly) Determinism. (Interestingly, this philosophy also eliminates morality and rationality but that is not the focus of thisarguement).

Suppose that God told you that you would do something great at the expense of your loved ones. You, for your own reasons, don't want to harm your loved ones, even to do this great thing that God spoke of. In order to correct this, you elect to throw yourself in front of a bus (there are worse ways to go :P). In doing this, you would cancel out your future and would do nothing great during you life. (unless you are to do that great thing from Heaven and the pain you cause your loved ones is the expense, in which case that would be a self-fufilling prophecy, but lets assume it's not) In order for the determinism mechanism to work, some deus ex machina would have to happen to stop the bus (a jet engine falling on the front a la Donnie Darko, for instance), in order for you to fufill your destiny, otherwise God will have not seen the future accurately, and is therefore not all-powerful.

Please notice that I didn't say that free will denies the existence of God, just that he cannot be all-powerful, he might be able to do everything except see into the future because of free will, but that wouldn't make him all powerful and would be an imperfection, which would raise all sorts of questions as you can imagine.

Im off to bed now, but please take the time to read, digest, reflect and post a counter arguement and/or comment.I'll trawl through the board tomorrow to findthis topic and read your reply. (This may be one of the arguements I put forth in my Philosphy exam on friday, so capitalise without mercy on any chinks you can find in my arguement :P)

Alternatively, you could comment that my explaination and example were both utter s*** and ask me to restate them :P

That doesn't disprove an all-knowing God at all. All it shows is that God can see everything thats going to happen but He doesn't choose whats going to happen. He puts people in certain places or something else like that but He doesn't make the choice for the human and have the human believe they chose that.

I know you'll probably say my logic is flawed but i think yours is also so most likely u can't convince me while i can't convince u.

Even if there is n amount of futures, and God can see every possible one, THEY ARE STILL ALREADY DETERMINED.Your 'manyfutures' argument is defunct anyway, as God knows what choices you will make. By 'knows' i mean, 'Can say with 100% accuracy every time,what you will do for every single decision in your life' In which case, he will look at the relevant future and ignore the others as there is no way youcould have chosen differently because he already 'knows' what your choice will be, all the other futures are hypothetical.

Ithought removing morality would be an obvious one, but thereyou go. Say I had a gun to someones head, I can either kill them or let them go. Seeing asGod 'knows' what I am going to do (he's all-powerful, see?) do I actuallyhave a choice in the matter?DoI hell, i'm destined to do what God has seen in my future. I cannot surprise him, by suddenly letting the person go or by blowing their brains out. God cannot be shockedby my decisions. Because I am destined to do whatGod has seen, I have no choice and can therefor make no actual moral decision. I am a clockwork puppet dancing to a tune that God has the sheet music for. (I need to write that metaphor down :P)

If I am a clockwork puppet, it is fair to saythat all my thoughts, feelings and actionsarejust stepping stones to mydetermined future. The analogy forrationality follows pretty much in the same veinas the morality issue. Ifyou aredestined to be swayed by my argument,your use of rationality doesn't matter,you will endup fufilling your futurein any case. In which case, the idea of rationality is an illusion as is morality and free-will.

The reason to live is that you cannot say with certianty what will happen,for now. Andevery choice you make is free to the best of your knowledge. Anyway, if the universe is pre-determined, we will philosophically be able to create time machines, andi don't know about you, butI see that as a reason to stick around. I could see the dinosaurs!

Chavyneebslod

How do you know about this? Its just your feeling isn't it? You have no evidence to support you. You are also quite misguided in your assumptions. You have taken scant notice of my earlier post.

In your morality example, people looking on at the scene would have a moral reaction to what they saw. Rationality and deduction would still exist too. People would still be able to reach decisions (although pre-determined ones) by rational means.

If free will does not exist, then life is absolutely pointless as life itself would be an illusion. What is the point of even thinking like that? It does not show the glory of god, rather god's hatred, cruelty, manipulation and vengefulness.

The reason to live is not to be "certain", but to experience, discover, learn, grow and have fun. I can't see how you can talk of time machines - why would they appear in a pre-destined universe? I'm baffled. Dinosaurs - Why did god create them, if only to annihilate them?

Can our puny human minds really interpret the word of God. For all we know, we were told the Big Bang, but in ancient times, they could not not grasp this idea, and instead described it in terms they knew; day and night, sky and ground etc. For all we know, God and genesis and the big bang are all true.azrealhk

The big bang theory is quite different to the creation story.

The creation story focuses on earth's development, so evolution would have to be included too.

Why would you call our minds puny? Have you not seen any scientific progress? In the great miidle ages, when the church ruled, people did not live too long and led hard oppressive lives. In many Islamic states today there is oppression and poverty. Its only now, since the role of the church in state has withered, that science is free to deliver the fruits of the incredible human capacity for invention.

how about this: how come the same explanation that is commonly used to describe God's omnipitent presence within, around, inside, outside, the infinite universe can't be used to describe the universe itself? like when i ask someone a hypothetical questionssuch as, "where did god come from?", most answer quite plainly that he just "is", and his presence is infinite and therefor cannot be analyzed in anyway the human mind could even possibly comprehend. it seem as though if people wanted to open their mind to the possibility, they'd realize, that those same infinite principles that define their god are actually quite plausible in describing our infinite universe. personally, i think the universe just "is".

[QUOTE="Chavyneebslod"]

Even if there is n amount of futures, and God can see every possible one, THEY ARE STILL ALREADY DETERMINED.Your 'manyfutures' argument is defunct anyway, as God knows what choices you will make. By 'knows' i mean, 'Can say with 100% accuracy every time,what you will do for every single decision in your life' In which case, he will look at the relevant future and ignore the others as there is no way youcould have chosen differently because he already 'knows' what your choice will be, all the other futures are hypothetical.

Ithought removing morality would be an obvious one, but thereyou go. Say I had a gun to someones head, I can either kill them or let them go. Seeing asGod 'knows' what I am going to do (he's all-powerful, see?) do I actuallyhave a choice in the matter?DoI hell, i'm destined to do what God has seen in my future. I cannot surprise him, by suddenly letting the person go or by blowing their brains out. God cannot be shockedby my decisions. Because I am destined to do whatGod has seen, I have no choice and can therefor make no actual moral decision. I am a clockwork puppet dancing to a tune that God has the sheet music for. (I need to write that metaphor down :P)

If I am a clockwork puppet, it is fair to saythat all my thoughts, feelings and actionsarejust stepping stones to mydetermined future. The analogy forrationality follows pretty much in the same veinas the morality issue. Ifyou aredestined to be swayed by my argument,your use of rationality doesn't matter,you will endup fufilling your futurein any case. In which case, the idea of rationality is an illusion as is morality and free-will.

The reason to live is that you cannot say with certianty what will happen,for now. Andevery choice you make is free to the best of your knowledge. Anyway, if the universe is pre-determined, we will philosophically be able to create time machines, andi don't know about you, butI see that as a reason to stick around. I could see the dinosaurs!

RationalAtheist

How do you know about this? Its just your feeling isn't it? You have no evidence to support you. You are also quite misguided in your assumptions. You have taken scant notice of my earlier post.

In your morality example, people looking on at the scene would have a moral reaction to what they saw. Rationality and deduction would still exist too. People would still be able to reach decisions (although pre-determined ones) by rational means.

If free will does not exist, then life is absolutely pointless as life itself would be an illusion. What is the point of even thinking like that? It does not show the glory of god, rather god's hatred, cruelty, manipulation and vengefulness.

The reason to live is not to be "certain", but to experience, discover, learn, grow and have fun. I can't see how you can talk of time machines - why would they appear in a pre-destined universe? I'm baffled. Dinosaurs - Why did god create them, if only to annihilate them?

Welcome to philosophy, life is a beach here. Every answer only raises more questions. This problem has been debated for years, and there is no was it going to be resolved on an internet forum.

Please point out my supposed 'misguided' assumptions. I seem to have missed them.

Youhave made aome incorrect assumptions too though. I don't give a flying f*** aboutGod. This is a discussion about the nature ofthe universe, God is only used as a hypothetical example to illustrate that

IF God = 1 then

Determinism = 1

End IF

I don't actually believe in determinism, i'm am only playing devil's advocate on it's part. Another assumption that everyone seems to be making about my argument is that God is making you choose something. That isn't true at all, it is just the very fact that there is an observer that knows the outcome of every single situation, negates any choice that the agents participating in the situations make. Do you see? Maybe this philosopy is a bit too advanced for your tastes, at least im not talking to you about the mind-body identity theory....

My comment about the time travel was a bit of light-hearted postulation. You made another assumption that everything I say in a discussion is serious. Please don't. I know it is hard to differentiatea person's tone by means of text, butmake an attempt. Else I could add html esque tags to show when i'm having some informal banter.( [Banter], [/Banter] )

In all seriousness though, lighten up.

Free Will: An issue seems to keep rising in these forums- that of God's supposed "cruelty." It has been posted over and over, "If God is so loving and compassionate, why is there murder, rape, crime, and war? Why doesn't He intervene?" Well, the answer is simple and surfaces in the bible on several occasions. It's called Free Will. God does not work us like puppets. As I have said on several occasions, God left us free to make our world the most prosperous and peaceful place in all of existence. We are as free to hurt and kill as we are to heal and save. Unfortunately, we've all ruined our world. I know (no blasphemy intended) that if I were God, I would have turned my back on this world a long time ago. He, however, has not.

RiSkyBiZ-13

From a comparison/study point of view the chritian god has been the most violent and unforgiving God in comparison to all other faiths (read anything in the old testement). I don't think it is the fact that their is rape and murder that mean there are no god, but I do blame christianity for alot of the problems we have today (racism), gay minoritiy and the deaths of so many (witch hunts, crusades....etc)

I come from a christian family, however I myself am athiest.

Who created the creator?duncancameron23

The people

[QUOTE="duncancameron23"]Who created the creator?APOLLOCJD

The people

Nail on the head there fella.

Welcome to philosophy, life is a beach here. Every answer only raises more questions. This problem has been debated for years, and there is no was it going to be resolved on an internet forum.

Please point out my supposed 'misguided' assumptions. I seem to have missed them.

Youhave made aome incorrect assumptions too though. I don't give a flying f*** aboutGod. This is a discussion about the nature ofthe universe, God is only used as a hypothetical example to illustrate that

IF God = 1 then

Determinism = 1

End IF

I don't actually believe in determinism, i'm am only playing devil's advocate on it's part. Another assumption that everyone seems to be making about my argument is that God is making you choose something. That isn't true at all, it is just the very fact that there is an observer that knows the outcome of every single situation, negates any choice that the agents participating in the situations make. Do you see? Maybe this philosopy is a bit too advanced for your tastes, at least im not talking to you about the mind-body identity theory....

My comment about the time travel was a bit of light-hearted postulation. You made another assumption that everything I say in a discussion is serious. Please don't. I know it is hard to differentiatea person's tone by means of text, butmake an attempt. Else I could add html esque tags to show when i'm having some informal banter.

In all seriousness though, lighten up.

Chavyneebslod

Chavyneebslod,

I did point out your misguided assumptions in my response. I make sure I illustrate my assertions.

I find your "Maybe this philosophy is a bit too advanced for your tastes" quite patronising. I have laid out a clear rebuttal, that you choose not to argue against. Your patronising comment shows you find yourself intellectually superior. I suggest that your arrogance stems from anger at your theories being easily dismissed. That sort of comment is hardly likely to induce me to "lighten up".

Your "if" statement is debatable. Deists believe in a non-interventionist creator god. This means some theists don't believe in omnipotent gods. Perhaps you need to look into theist philosophy a bit more...

You are right - I can't tell when you are being serious or light-hearted. Perhaps thats because I found the first part of that post just as incredible as the second star trek bit. Its down to you to make sure your posts scan properly. How can you expect an audience to guess your tone, unless your writing adapts to reflect it. English language is so powerful that smileys and HTML are not really necessary.