Canadian Election Results: another Conservative Minority

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clicketyclick

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#51 clicketyclick
Member since 2008 • 7136 Posts

If we went strictly off this system, none of the territories would get a seat in the commons because their populations are too low. Yukon: 28,674, NWT: 37,360, Nunavut: 26,745
bogaty

I understand that their populations are low. I'm saying that it's unfair. How can you not have representatives for territories that are a part of Canada? There must be at least one representative. You can't have members of Canada completely left out of one of the political institutions.

I didn't launch into writing a scholarly essay with all sources cited as this is a gaming forum, but the information is out there regarding causative links between rise in poverty and rise in crime. There are also studies out of the UK and Australia which show crime rates under Conservative gov'ts a much higher than under Liberal ones and this has been the case for 100 years.bogaty

You can't establish causal links with mere observational studies.

As for tariffs, most economists do NOT agree that tariffs are bad. Only the economists who support Milton Friedmann's school of thought do. You know, supply side economics, "free trade/free markets", deregulation, and the whole trickle-down theory.bogaty

It's fairly well recognised that trade between countries causes economic growth for the countries participating. Tariffs pose a barrier to this international trade, slow it down, and thus also impact economic growth negatively.

And like I already said, instituting tariffs reduces competition in the market locally, and we know that competition means competitive prices; without competition, prices rise. As prices rise, consumers buy less, and not just of what is being subjected to tariffs. They are unable to afford as much of something when it costs more and so the demand decreases. Because demand decreases, supply also decreases. As consumers buy less, the economy slows.

And in addition, imposing tariffs encourages protectionist behaviour and distrust in other countries, which has a serious negative impact on our economy, like for example the tariffs on softwood lumber. They look at their loggers and see that it saves their jobs, and neglect how it drives up local prices, burdening the consumer, and also neglect how it causes the loss of Canadian jobs. When we impose tariffs, we're doing the same.

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Toriko42

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#52 Toriko42
Member since 2006 • 27562 Posts
Pointless election and a waste of our money, 3 elections in four years is ridiculous
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clicketyclick

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#53 clicketyclick
Member since 2008 • 7136 Posts

Pointless election and a waste of our money, 3 elections in four years is ridiculousToriko42

On the other hand, I'm getting a lot of use out of my driver's license and my recent ability to vote.

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Toriko42

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#54 Toriko42
Member since 2006 • 27562 Posts

[QUOTE="Toriko42"]Pointless election and a waste of our money, 3 elections in four years is ridiculousclicketyclick

On the other hand, I'm getting a lot of use out of my driver's license and my recent ability to vote.

One the other hand the government wastes millions of dollars of your tax money on an election that goes nowhere
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clicketyclick

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#55 clicketyclick
Member since 2008 • 7136 Posts
[QUOTE="clicketyclick"]

[QUOTE="Toriko42"]Pointless election and a waste of our money, 3 elections in four years is ridiculousToriko42

On the other hand, I'm getting a lot of use out of my driver's license and my recent ability to vote.

One the other hand the government wastes millions of dollars of your tax money on an election that goes nowhere

On the other hand, I don't pay income tax because I'm a poor and starving student. :P

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Aznsilvrboy

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#56 Aznsilvrboy
Member since 2002 • 11495 Posts
Voted for the first time, disappointed at the results.
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Tylendal

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#57 Tylendal
Member since 2006 • 14681 Posts
[QUOTE="Tylendal"]

What we need to do is choose the amount of candidates, then divy up said candidates by the number of votes in each riding.

EG: 37.4% of Canadians voted Conservative this year. 26.9%Liberal, 18% NDP, 9.9% Quebecois, and 6.6% Green and 1.2% other. For simplicities sake we'll pretend that there are 100 ridings.

So. We'd have 37 Conservative, 27 Liberal, 18 NDP, 10 Quebecois, and 7 Green. Then, go through the ridings and say "Okay, this riding was 99% in favour of this party, give them the representative they voted for." Then go down the list, giving the most fanatical ridings who they voted for, giving them their second, third, etc... choices when you run out of candidates elected by the overall percentages.

True, its' flawed, but no more so than what we've already got, and it certainly is much more fair or a federal level.

GabuEx

The biggest problem with that idea is that it effectively punishes people for having competitive ridings and severs all links between those people and the government. While I think that our current system is flawed, I think there needs to be a fundamental link between the people and the government that they elect, and that link would get very tenuous if the only real link was country-wide percentages as opposed to a representative duly elected by the people in that riding.

On the other hand, most of the more zealous ridings do get who they elected. In highly contested ridings, the majority is generally left without their nominee anyway. My system is the best way I can think of that represents the true will of the populace, yet still makes voting on a local level valid.

IMO, the only real flaw is that it would make a majority government almost impossible. On the other hand, if there was a majority government, it would be a true majority. Just look at this election. The conservatives were very close to a majority, but they only got just over a third of the votes. That's flawed, IMO.

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hiphops_savior

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#58 hiphops_savior
Member since 2007 • 8535 Posts
I've voted for the first time, and I voted Liberal. I really can't trust Harper with a majority government. Too bad we've wasted our money on an election that got the same result as the last one.
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HybridPhoenix

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#59 HybridPhoenix
Member since 2007 • 3598 Posts

This election was a joke, I'm just glad for meager NDP uprise.

The bloc quebecois exists to ensure that the "rights of the french canadian people" remain in tact. It's their attempt to keep their culture strong and recognized.

The green party is a larger joke, can you imagine them winning? "Okay! Our emissions have been completely reduced! Now what do we do about the prominent economic colapse!! :D :D :D...D:....anyone!?"

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Tylendal

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#60 Tylendal
Member since 2006 • 14681 Posts

Here's why I have hope for the green party in the future. Here are the results from my school. Marxist Leninist 30 votes, Liberal 92 votes, Conservative 123 votes, NDP 189 votes, Green 220 votes.

I expect to see the green party gaining some seats in the near future, probably in BC. The amount of times they've gotten third place in a riding, is clearly indicative of their influence. It shows that they can beat the other three.

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deactivated-5df4e79c309ad

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#61 deactivated-5df4e79c309ad
Member since 2005 • 6045 Posts
I not only voted, but I was also one of the candidates for the Christian Heritage Party of Canada. I didn't win, but it was an educational and fun experience. The election has helped to increase our membership so that's good.
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Lockedge

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#62 Lockedge
Member since 2002 • 16765 Posts

Here's why I have hope for the green party in the future. Here are the results from my school. Marxist Leninist 30 votes, Liberal 92 votes, Conservative 123 votes, NDP 189 votes, Green 220 votes.

I expect to see the green party gaining some seats in the near future, probably in BC. The amount of times they've gotten third place in a riding, is clearly indicative of their influence. It shows that they can beat the other three.

Tylendal

You realize most students vote green because of "Pot legalization". And because it's fighting "against the 'Man' ". No offense, but kids in high school are about as educated in politics as my friend's pet scorpion, and they're very simplistic in what they care about. It's usually either "pot legalization", "save the forests", "go communism!", "Go hard-line conservatism, even though I don't know what it means. My parents vote this way.", "Go hard-line liberalism, even though I don't know what it means. My parents vote this way.", "Go centrist liberalism, even though I don't know what it means. My parents vote this way." "Go power to Quebec!".

Kids in high school almost never take the economy into consideration, and if they do, it's an incredibly misguided and/or irrational consideration. They don't care about the range of policies that would be bestowed upon a country, so long as the one or two they care about come into effect.

I mean, some adults are as stupid about politics as most kids are, but the fac is that kids in high school don't know anything about politics, and the fact that most voted Green, and there were 30 votes for Maxist Leninist shows this.

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GabuEx

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#63 GabuEx
Member since 2006 • 36552 Posts

On the other hand, most of the more zealous ridings do get who they elected. In highly contested ridings, the majority is generally left without their nominee anyway. My system is the best way I can think of that represents the true will of the populace, yet still makes voting on a local level valid.

Tylendal

It's true that if the guy gets in who 45% of people voted for, then 55% of people aren't represented by who they wanted. But how is it better to give them the guy who only 30% voted for just because some guys who don't even live in the riding happened to vote for a candidate in the same party?

Winston Churchill once called democracy "the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried from time to time". I think the same could be said about our current setup: it's not perfect; it has obvious flaws; but it's still better than the alternatives. I would certainly be in favor of something like riding-specific instant-runoff voting in an attempt to make each individual MP more representative of what the people really want, but proportional representation is just flat-out bad.

IMO, the only real flaw is that it would make a majority government almost impossible. On the other hand, if there was a majority government, it would be a true majority. Just look at this election. The conservatives were very close to a majority, but they only got just over a third of the votes. That's flawed, IMO.

Tylendal

What's flawed about that? The people got the representatives that a plurality voted for in each riding. The government is not, nor was it ever intended to be, representative of the population at large. Rather, it's intended to be representative of the views of each individual riding. A country is not an amorphous blob; it's a collection of individuals bound together, each of whom have individual views and interests. If the people in riding A like the Conservatives so much that they voted 80% for the Conservative candidate, then good for them - give them that candidate as their MP. It makes no sense, however, to then have those people's massive support for the Conservatives affect other people's MPs.

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Witchsight

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#64 Witchsight
Member since 2004 • 12145 Posts
Lowest voter turnout in Canadian history? And i helped!
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DJ_Lae

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#65 DJ_Lae
Member since 2002 • 42748 Posts
God damn it I hate Denise Savois. I can't believe people voted her back in again.
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haziqonfire

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#66 haziqonfire
Member since 2005 • 36392 Posts
Waste of money and time. 2 more years of the government being in limbo.
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GabuEx

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#67 GabuEx
Member since 2006 • 36552 Posts

God damn it I hate Denise Savois. I can't believe people voted her back in again.DJ_Lae

I'm just glad to see that Keith Martin scraped by. He's always been my favorite MP.

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DJ_Lae

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#68 DJ_Lae
Member since 2002 • 42748 Posts

[QUOTE="DJ_Lae"]God damn it I hate Denise Savois. I can't believe people voted her back in again.GabuEx

I'm just glad to see that Keith Martin scraped by. He's always been my favorite MP.

Holy crap that's a close vote. 70 vote difference around the 20,000 mark?

All five Victoria candidates are idiots, though. Normally I vote Conservative but I hate Jack McClintock. I wish I could have voted for the Esquimalt riding.

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foxhound_fox

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#69 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts
It is unfortunate that Harper couldn't get a majority government... that would make getting things done go a lot quicker.

I personally didn't vote because I didn't feel confident enough in any of the federal parties or my local riding candidates to give them my vote.
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Overrated_Hero

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#70 Overrated_Hero
Member since 2008 • 3439 Posts

Not Harper again, even though the other candidates are really something...

But see you guys at the voting rounds next year. >__>

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japa28

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#71 japa28
Member since 2004 • 2797 Posts

another Conservative minority is fine with me.

interestingly, my riding was the only one in all of Quebec in which the NDP won. i wonder why that is - it's been all Liberals until this time around..

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EVOLV3

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#72 EVOLV3
Member since 2008 • 12210 Posts
I dont understand why the Bloc got as many seats as they did...

:o I didnt know theres a Marijuana Party of Canada http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marijuana_Party_of_Canada
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clicketyclick

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#73 clicketyclick
Member since 2008 • 7136 Posts

I not only voted, but I was also one of the candidates for the Christian Heritage Party of Canada. I didn't win, but it was an educational and fun experience. The election has helped to increase our membership so that's good.Jemdude

Congratulations on increasing your membership. I've always wanted to know: are you allowed to vote for yourself when you're running?

another Conservative minority is fine with me.

interestingly, my riding was the only one in all of Quebec in which the NDP won. i wonder why that is - it's been all Liberals until this time around..

japa28

I thought Thomas Mulcair was the incumbent? In any case, I think it's a combination of resentment of the Tories for arts cuts and Youth Act comments as well as growing doubts about the PQ's relevance. So the dissatisfied vote would go to Liberals naturally, except that Jack Layton speaks French well and is a Quebec native. Anyway, that's my rationalisation. Or maybe they just like the candidate?

Here's why I have hope for the green party in the future. Here are the results from my school. Marxist Leninist 30 votes, Liberal 92 votes, Conservative 123 votes, NDP 189 votes, Green 220 votes.

I expect to see the green party gaining some seats in the near future, probably in BC. The amount of times they've gotten third place in a riding, is clearly indicative of their influence. It shows that they can beat the other three.

Tylendal

Ya, but you see, many people support the Green Party... then they grow up. :P

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bogaty

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#74 bogaty
Member since 2003 • 4750 Posts

[QUOTE="bogaty"]

I didn't launch into writing a scholarly essay with all sources cited as this is a gaming forum, but the information is out there regarding causative links between rise in poverty and rise in crime. There are also studies out of the UK and Australia which show crime rates under Conservative gov'ts a much higher than under Liberal ones and this has been the case for 100 years.clicketyclick

You can't establish causal links with mere observational studies.

They aren't mere observational studies. Should you wish to track them down, you'll see that they're full of all the proximate and ultimate causations and relationships, histographs, deviations and all the staticstical bells and whistles you'll need to cure insomnia.

As for tariffs, most economists do NOT agree that tariffs are bad. Only the economists who support Milton Friedmann's school of thought do. You know, supply side economics, "free trade/free markets", deregulation, and the whole trickle-down theory.bogaty

It's fairly well recognised that trade between countries causes economic growth for the countries participating. Tariffs pose a barrier to this international trade, slow it down, and thus also impact economic growth negatively.

And like I already said, instituting tariffs reduces competition in the market locally, and we know that competition means competitive prices; without competition, prices rise. As prices rise, consumers buy less, and not just of what is being subjected to tariffs. They are unable to afford as much of something when it costs more and so the demand decreases. Because demand decreases, supply also decreases. As consumers buy less, the economy slows.

And in addition, imposing tariffs encourages protectionist behaviour and distrust in other countries, which has a serious negative impact on our economy, like for example the tariffs on softwood lumber. They look at their loggers and see that it saves their jobs, and neglect how it drives up local prices, burdening the consumer, and also neglect how it causes the loss of Canadian jobs. When we impose tariffs, we're doing the same.

I disagree with almost everything that's written here. Nobody disputes that trade between nations is beneficial, provided it's regulated. Unprotected markets do not promote growth, in fact, they not only stifle it, but in many cases, unprotected markets have a disasterous effect on local economies. One only has to look at what's happening in Africa right now. The IMF and WTO forced Africa to open up their markets to agricultural products from overeas. Local farmers, who traditionally grew things on a small scale without massive use of industrial equipment or chemical aids like fertilizers and pesticides could not compete and most were driven out of business. Multinational agri-businesses came in, bought up most of the arable land and what few farmers are left are basically labourers. The crops that are grown are for export to places like China and not for local consumption. End result? MAssive unemployment and food insecurity, but hey, a few locals got very, very rich.

Same idea in Japan. They have little arable land and high population densities, so farming is a very expensive proposition there. Were they to furhter open their markets to imported foodstuffs, they would no longer be self-sustaining. The free market proponent says "Great! Cheaper food and more choice for the consumers in Japan!" However, what happens if there's a war or unrest in the region over something like the Spratly Islands? Insurance rates on ships hauling goods into Japan skyrockets and there are food shortages and the gov't must institute price controls. This happened 3 years ago in Japan due to a spate of piracy in the South China Sea.

Similar things are happening now in Thailand and Cambodia. Food once consumed by the local populace is now being sold on the world market. A few people are getting very, very wealthy from the deal but the Thais are close to rioting because they can no longer afford to buy rice. There have been riots in Bangkok, Manila, and Phnom Penh over the price of rice and cooking oil. Mexico had riots over the price of corn 2 years ago.

After the US coalitional gov't seized control of Iraq, they implemented free trade principles and outlawed unions, set a flat tax, and said there would be no barriers to trade. The Friedmannite economists actually believed that this would create a free market utopia and Iraq would be peaceful and prosperous. It was a disaster. Within months, factories were shutting down and the local populace, which should have been put to work rebuilding the country's infrastructure, were all laid off in favour of importing cheaper labourers from Sri Lanka and Bangladesh. 5 years on and there's still no clean water and electricity is still sporadic. The populace has become militant and life for the average Iraqi is pure misery.

http://harpers.org/archive/2004/09/0080197

Finally, "Free trade" as it exists now is not the exchange of goods between countries. Over 60% of the flow of goods and capital in the international markets is intra-company trade, not international trade. Basically, a multinational company like General Electric decides to move its washing machine engine manufacturing plant to Mexico. It produces the engines there for say, $1 whereas it used to cost them $10 to make it in the US. It takes this $1 engine and sells it to itself for $9.99 so that it only pays taxes and (if there even are any) tariffs on only $0.01. It still charges US consumers the same price for the washing machine, it just pockets the extra profit or pays it out to shareholders.

Contrary to the assertion that consumer demand goes down under protectionist economies, the reverse is true. Yes, goods cost more, but people are making more money, have pensions and benefits, and a able to afford more.

Ever since the Regan/Thatcher/Friedmann shift from Keynsian economics to Friedmann's system in the 80's. Real wages for all but the top 15% of wage earners have fallen and fallen sharply. People have been living off credit and the bill has finally come due with the collapse of the housing bubble.

China is doing well now precisely because they protect their markets. If you want to import finished goods into China, you have to pay a 22% tariff. Want to bring some of their goods into Canada? 4%. We shouldn't be competing with that as the only result will be the further erosion of the middle **** We saw the results of this kind of uncertainty in the 1930s.

The British Ministry of Defence came out with a document highlighting what they perceived to be the most likely threats to national stability in the next 20 years. A resurgence of radical populist movements leading to Communism or Fascism were listed in the top 4.

Now, provided concrete examples showing just a few of the negative consequences of free trade. You only respond with vague and unproven statements like "most economics agree that..." or "It's fairly well recognized that..." Can you provide concrete examples of how unregulated markets benefit the middle cla-ss in Canada?